101 réponses à ce sujet

[Kezza]

Going through this I must admit I do wonder if there is a Maker even when Corypheus claims that the throne was empty. Personally I am think that there is a Maker, especially after some of the conversations with Josephine, Mother Giselle and Varric.

It would have been interesting to see Solas point on the Maker.....

[Iakus]

I think there is (or was) a Maker.

 

But who or what that being is may be a question for the ages.

[The Baconer]

Maker has no use for a chair. 

 

We can't even be sure the Maker particularly cares about what's going on. 

[Ieldra]

The statement about the throne was a figure of speech. It meant simply "there was no one there" - which should surprise no one. As long as the Maker doesn't show himself, we should assume non-existence on grounds of lacking evidence, as we would with any other item or entity in similar circumstances.

 

The Maker is an idea in people's minds, nothing more. It's a powerful idea, but nothing we know about the world hints he may be more than that.

[Iakus]

The statement about the throne was a figure of speech. It meant simply "there was no one there" - which should surprise no one. As long as the Maker doesn't show himself, we should assume non-existence on grounds of lacking evidence, as we would with any other item or entity in similar circumstances.

 

The Maker is an idea in people's minds, nothing more. It's a powerful idea, but nothing we know about the world hints he may be more than that.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

 

We have seen for ourselves that gods that have gone silent are still around, from several pantheons:  Mythal, the Old Gods, Fen'Harel, Hakkon.  And Solas has explained why the other Evanuris are gone as well.  Even the Titans it turned out are a thing.

 

Thus why I say there is no reason to assume he doesn't exist.  Or didn't exist at some point.  However, what sort of "god" the Maker may be is still very much in question.  Spirit?  Ascended human or elf (or even dwarf)?  Something related to the titans or dragons?  Something even stranger from the deep Fade?

[kal_reegar]

If a "normal" elf, given a certain amount of time, can acquire a sufficient amount of magic power and knowledge to separate the "everything that exists" in two (almost) separate worlds, I don't see any reason why we should exclude the presence of a very powerful (magical?) entity (the Maker) which originally create "everything that exists", or at least the portion in which DA is set.

 

We can't know, anyway.

[Ashagar]

The Maker is deliberately mysterious and will never be disproven though I think he is rather like the God of Tolken's works and generally operates on a such greater scale that his direct intervention would likely have unintended and perhaps undesirable results even when solving the issue.

[Ieldra]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Actually, it is, if the evidence should be there but isn't. Also, you can postulate anything in the realm of the unobservable, but claims about that realm have no substance at all. You can only invoke faith, but "Faith is the truth of passion. Since no passion is more true than another, faith is the truth of nothing." (From "The Darkness That Comes Before", by R. Scott Bakker). Note that I apply the same standards to my own fundamental beliefs. I do not claim truth for them, only desirability of their truth. Anything more would be intellectually dishonest.

[kimgoold]

I hope after DAI we discover the Black City is in fact an Ancient Elven ruin like the Library from Trespasser. And I really would like to see the Maker as claimed by the Chantry is actually Solas; (not the actual maker or being that created everything). But how Solas's actions in imprisoning the Evanuris and creation of the veil are attributed to a maker but is proven wrong in future DA. Now that would be interesting and create a lot of future conflict and stories in DAverse. 

[Iakus]

Actually, it is, if the evidence should be there but isn't. Also, you can postulate anything in the realm of the unobservable, but claims about that realm have no substance at all. You can only invoke faith, but "Faith is the truth of passion. Since no passion is more true than another, faith is the truth of nothing." (From "The Darkness That Comes Before", by R. Scott Bakker). Note that I apply the same standards to my own fundamental beliefs. I do not claim truth for them, only desirability of their truth. Anything more would be intellectually dishonest.

 

Why should the evidence be there, though?  All the gods have gone silent.  The dragon gods of Tevinter. The Evanuris of the elves.  The Titans of the dwarves.  But we have learned they all still exist in some form.  Why should the Maker be any different?  Even if he is absent, that makes him no different than most other deities we know about.

 

I do not invoke faith here, but a trend. Don't think of my assertion as "faith" that he exists.  But as a hypothesis based on observed data.

[Gervaise]

Corypheus' declaration doesn't actually prove the Maker doesn't exist because according to the Chant he vacated the Golden City almost the same time as the Magisters entered it.    The only thing that didn't fit was Cory's assertion (back in DA2) that when he got there it was already black.       The rest of Chantry teaching is that the Maker now resides somewhere else with Andraste, which could still be the case.    Mind you, the history of the evanuris, the Titans and Solas raising the Veil does contradict a lot of what is in the Chant so I wouldn't necessarily hold much store by that.     I also thought that when Cory went there with his pals, they were looking for the old gods, not the Maker.    So all that stuff about the Maker was him just trying to undermine his opposition since he knows (or thinks) they do believe in the Maker and the story about him residing in the Golden City.    

 

It used to be asserted that they would never definitively reveal whether the Maker existed or not and as things stand, given he is stated to have abandoned the world to its fate, I think they can happily keep to that.    So really it is just up to the individual PC whether or not they believe he exists.     Mind you, it is a pity we couldn't have asked that nice faith spirit about the Maker in the Fade.  

[Iakus]

The Maker is deliberately mysterious and will never be disproven though I think he is rather like the God of Tolken's works and generally operates on a such greater scale that his direct intervention would likely have unintended and perhaps undesirable results even when solving the issue.

Well, if the Qunari try to invade the Golden City and Par Vollen gets smashed into the sea for it, we'll know 

[DarkAmaranth1966]

ust like our universe, some power outsid of it had to at least crate the first particle of matter at some point. What or who that is we don't know and, wether that entity made more than just basic matter that evolved into everything we know today, we will never know. So too is Thedas, no one knows and, while they do not have an evolution debate as we do, perhaps somwhere, some think that is what happened.

 

We now know the Veil is man (elf) made and was never meant to be so, that raises many questions, if you think there is a Maker, then what was the world and magic supposed to be like? Were all humaniods meant to have magic and, the veil took that from all races? Were all of them immortal and, the elves simply the last to become mortal when Solas created the veil?

 

I'd like to play the world before the veil, or play just before and just after its creation, now that would be a game.

[Qun00]

I don't remember if it was Gaider or the devs who said it, but if the Maker were to be revealed he would have to be something beyond ordinary mortals.

[mgagne]

... Since no passion is more true than another, faith is the truth of nothing." (From "The Darkness That Comes Before", by R. Scott Bakker). Note that I apply the same standards to my own fundamental beliefs. I do not claim truth for them, only desirability of their truth. Anything more would be intellectually dishonest.

 

I see another Bakker's fan and it pleases me, since I find his work doesn't garner nearly as much attention it deserves.

 

---

 

In any case regarding the 'Maker', and in the absence of any canonical evidence, we must conclude with the Chantry that He/She/It has left that world and its inhabitants to their own devices.

 

Personally I've simply made up a story to fill in that particular blank.  Something about one of the arks leaving a dying Earth, carrying the last humans within its bowels.  The governing AI of the ship traveled for millennia to find a suitable world for its charges and during that time it encountered ancient beings that changed it, giving it true sentience and appointing it the guardian spirit of humanity.  Anyway after more time had passed it found the DA world, attracted by the strange energy signature of that world hidden near the galactic core, and decided to awaken his cargo and put them on a small island continent to the far west, wiping most of their memories of ancient Terra.  Then it left.

[Shizukai]

It's Ser Pounce-A-Lot.

Mind my words.

[kann.nix9mm]

Actually, it is, if the evidence should be there but isn't. Also, you can postulate anything in the realm of the unobservable, but claims about that realm have no substance at all. You can only invoke faith, but "Faith is the truth of passion. Since no passion is more true than another, faith is the truth of nothing." (From "The Darkness That Comes Before", by R. Scott Bakker). Note that I apply the same standards to my own fundamental beliefs. I do not claim truth for them, only desirability of their truth. Anything more would be intellectually dishonest.

 

1. Didn't Bioware say they won't bring forth any evidence regarding the Makers existence or not? He is supposed to be and stay an unsolved mystery.

 

2. Nothing against you but I find it hilarious that you think the existence of a God can be disproved by human logic. That would ultimately imply that God would be bound by the same rules as a human.

[Medhia_Nox]

The statement about the throne was a figure of speech. It meant simply "there was no one there" - which should surprise no one. As long as the Maker doesn't show himself, we should assume non-existence on grounds of lacking evidence, as we would with any other item or entity in similar circumstances.

 

The Maker is an idea in people's minds, nothing more. It's a powerful idea, but nothing we know about the world hints he may be more than that.

Curious... do you also say that there are no such things as aliens?  

 

Cause there's absolutely, without question, zero proof of... and tons of proof against (and more proof that space is so vast that they "might as well" not exist as far as we'll ever be concerned).  Yet I see countless of people who get off on disbelief... believing in their fictional little Federations, Galaxies Far Away and "obviously it's a big space" theories - with the same reckless abandon any religious person puts toward their god(s).  ((Note:  Of course I am not saying you do this... I'd have to know your answer to my first question to know that.) 

 

If we're going to disbelieve on the basis of proof... we should be consistent.  

 

As for ideas... we know that Desire, Pride, Fear, Wisdom, Compassion, Rage and a host of uncounted Ideas possess physical forms that are capable of independent thought.  

 

- If all Ideas take physical form in the Fade

- And the Maker is an Idea

- The Maker possesses a physical form in the Fade.

 

Is a more logical argument than its opposite.  

 

That being said... I don't concern myself much with whether the Maker (or a real God) exists.  

 

As Solas says (who, btw - is quite open to the possibility) - no real god would have to prove his existence.  If something like the Maker exists... what would it matter for a mouthy monkey like Morrigan to disbelieve?  Why would it care?  It's feelings aren't going to be hurt.  It's not going to feel threatened.  Morrigan - or any disbeliever - is just another opinion neither pleasing nor offending to such a being.  And - in the end - they're all just stardust (and Fade stuff - for Thedas).   

[Obsidian Gryphon]

On a crazy notion , the Maker is the Fade. An unconscious thing in existence until creations appear. As they appear, it evolves with them and attains something close to sentience but it does not interfere, it watches, it whispers in dreams, etc.

[Dabrikishaw]

As long as Bioware intends to keep The Maker a mystery, I intended to not waste any time wondering if he exists.

[Medhia_Nox]

On a crazy notion , the Maker is the Fade. An unconscious thing in existence until creations appear. As they appear, it evolves with them and attains something close to sentience but it does not interfere, it watches, it whispers in dreams, etc.

Consider:  Anaximander's apeiron of Greek philosophical thought. 

 

Fade is "thought" - it is pure possibility made manifest. It is the potential for "idea, imagination, etc" without forcing it. I would find this as reasonable as any explanation for the Maker.

[Tigress M]

The Maker and Bianca - two mysteries that will never be revealed.   

[Medhia_Nox]

Unless Bianca IS the Maker... 

[Iakus]

 

As for ideas... we know that Desire, Pride, Fear, Wisdom, Compassion, Rage and a host of uncounted Ideas possess physical forms that are capable of independent thought.  

 

- If all Ideas take physical form in the Fade

- And the Maker is an Idea

- The Maker possesses a physical form in the Fade.

 

Is a more logical argument than its opposite.  

 

That being said... I don't concern myself much with whether the Maker (or a real God) exists.  

 

That would be interesting.  If the Maker was a Fade spirit (of Faith?) who drew strength from belief in the Maker.  Much like the Nightmare Demon drew strength from a thousand years of nightmares brought about by Blights.

 

Of course, since the Maker is supposedly the creator of Thedas, the question would have to be, who had the original concept of the Maker?  The unbelieved believer, so to speak?

 

 

As Solas says (who, btw - is quite open to the possibility) - no real god would have to prove his existence.  If something like the Maker exists... what would it matter for a mouthy monkey like Morrigan to disbelieve?

Nice added alliterative appeal  

[thats1evildude]

Even if there was a spirit calling itself the Maker who was created by the beliefs of his worshippers, that would not be the true Maker, who created the Fade and the physical world in the first place.

 

To put it another way: a Lego statue of the inventor of Legos is still not the inventor of Legos.