101 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia_Nox]

@Iakus:  The Pando Aspen clones of Utah are a superorganism that - on a conservative side - are believed to be 80,000 years old.  

 

I could conceive of the Maker that way. 

 

If the Maker itself was "the first Idea" - I would call it an "unbelieved, belief" - it would have been small, alone in the universe - until it created another idea that not only had power on its own, but contributed power to "the whole".  So each consecutive belief self-propagates the whole.  A super-organism of metaphysical proportions.  

 

Not unlike life - which must have self-designed in primordial goo previously not alive - the first belief, or "The Maker", could have conceivably spontaneously generated as a possibility that solidified the minute the second belief was formed. 

 

If the Maker is a "Belief" spirit... or an "Idea" spirit... or a "Thought" spirit - it would be incomprehensibly power as these concepts go far beyond petty concepts like Vices and Virtues.   

 

Remember - the Maker existed before the Andrastian Faith.. if it was born in the Fade the same moment the first living organism has a "thought" - it would be everything that the Fade could possibly be (which is the claim of the Maker's creation).  

 

@thats1evildude:  Both the universe itself and life came from "non-existence" and "non-life" - whether through a Creator or through the natural progression of a series of mathematically impossible events that did occur - there are two "mega-events" that did occur spontaneously in our universe without a "cause".  ((though I won't begrudge the dogmatic scientists their rabid search for a cause to support their doctrine)).

[Aren]

This new age the disbelievers talk about is underwhelming.

The age where people dreams is over due to absence of evidence? Eh!? Oi!

What the hell?

People's Dreams Never End!

[SwobyJ]

Even if there was a spirit calling itself the Maker who was created by the beliefs of his worshippers, that would not be the true Maker, who created the Fade and the physical world in the first place.
 
To put it another way: a Lego statue of the inventor of Legos is still not the inventor of Legos.

It would be if it time traveled/all-time-existed to do all those things.

[VorexRyder]

There is no single mention or idea supporting The Maker(not a creator deity in general) before Andraste and her Chant of Light.

 

What The Chant of Light and by extension Andraste(who is the only being we "know" interacted with The Maker) says about The Maker, that can reasonably assumed wasn't edited by The Chantry, since it would serve no purpose:

 

 

Maker made The Fade, then he made Spirits who didn't have free will/creativity and intercted with them.(Spirits not a reflection formed from the emotions and ideas of mortals.)

Then he made the Golden City and interacted with the Spirits.(No Spirit remembers The Maker or knows of a Spirit that does, and while some Spirits believe it exists, they do so only as a reflection of mortal believes.)

Was disappointed in Spirits becasue they had no free will/creativity, so he left the Fade and made Thedas.

At the same time he made the Veil.(No)

Which he populated with Humans and Elves who had free will/creativity.(What about Dwarfs? What about Cole? How does this reconcile with the Elvhen being in the Fade?)

{In this order according to the Chantry: Fade, Spirits, Thedas&Veil, Humans&Elves. No mention of Titans or Dwarves.}

The Old Gods were jealous spirits and convinced humans to worship them.(Coincidentially, the same number and with similar themes as the Mage-Kings that Solas sealed away...)

Maker departs.

The Magisters Sidereal enter the Golden City, this is claimed to be what created the taint, the act of going in and out of the Fade twisting the Magisters.(We know this is BS.)

That the City was blackened by the Mags entering it.(Corypheus says the inside was already Tainted, not just blackened, Tainted)

 

How can The Maker as defined by The Chant in anyway exist if it's already been proven in canon that The Chant is way wrong? As for the Golden City, it fits the description Solas gives about Ancient Elvhen Architecture, and the knowledge that the Veil is a recent development as well as the what we see happened to a different Super Fancy Elvhen Building (The Library) when the Veil was created, we can reasonably assume that the Golden City is Arlathan.

 

As for why Arlathan is Tainted? While Solas rebelled because Mythal died, he created The Veil to prevent everything from being destroyed. Corypheus claims The GC was already Tainted when they stepped in. The descriptions of Andruil from when she went into the Void closely resemble someone being affected by the Taint. Red Lyrium is the Tainted Blood-Analog of the Titans/Mobile Instrumentality Geofront.

The Elvhen mined Lyrium, and at least the Evanuris and Forgotten Ones knew how to access The Void.

 

The Evanuris directly messing with Titan probably caused it to become Tainted. **** gets real, Solas plays both The Evanuris and Forgotten Ones against each other, then seals them away with The Veil and completely cuts off Arlathan from direct access by Eluvian, if it wasn't war-time measure implemented by the Evanuris themselves. Except for the Eluvian that you find in the Dalish Origin that had somewhat working connection.

 

Most of what the Maker is responsible for according to The Chant of Light is shown to either have been done by others, or to not actually have happened. Aside from the Origin of Humanity on Thedas, most of the things we don't know have a lot more evidence and implications of it being caused by Normal Magic, pre-Veil magic, the Void, or Titans.

 

 

Faith is trust or belief without  strong evidence for it, Delusion is trust or belief despite strong evidence against it. The Maker, according to Bioware, is supposed to be a narrative representation of Faith, but it is done so poorly it actually represents Delusion.

 

 

Just like you can twist a Spirit of Compassion into a Demon of Despair, even if you don't mean it, the ambivalence on the Maker's existence as a narrative tool was a good idea ruined by shitty execution, and should be put down just like a Demon. Specially since unlike a Demon, the process can't be reversed without some hard retcon.

 

If DA has a Creator Deity, it is in no way related to The Maker beyond coincidence, and it most likely doesn't interact with its Creations. Probably because Creation is exactly what it inteded it to be, and intevening with events would make Free Will pointless. The ability to fail making success mean something.

[Ashagar]

The developers confirmed via word of god that the Maker is the same deity as the Northern Neromenian/Tevinter Creator god followed before the the worship of the old gods and that the Old Tevinter Imperium still honored with a Festival even as they worshiped the old gods. The ancient Northern Neromenians tribes believed he created the world and the Ancient Tevinter further believed that the Golden City was his seat though its unclear that the Neromenians had any beliefs concerning the Maker and the Golden City or if that idea was planted by Cultural imperialism, the forbidden ones or the old gods.

[Qis]

The Maker will not be proven exist or not exist, because it will conflict with other belief system in DA Universe. If The Maker is proven exist then all other belief system fall, if he is proven don't exist then it makes other belief system right.

 

The same goes in real world...if Allah proven exist with physical evidence, then all other religion and atheism can go bye-bye...same with if YHWH proven exist, Shiva proven exist, Zeus proven exist....and so on

 

Unless Bioware just want DA universe have only one God and making other religions are false or in other way the Chantry religion is false and other religion is true , they will not make The Maker proven exist or not exist.

[Ashagar]

Depends on the setting, a number of settings have supreme creator god, sometimes its even the Judo-christian god and then multiple pantheons of gods each with their own head god.

[Qis]

Religion is believe...if you believe there was a man named Jesus, doing miracles sometime ago in Judea...then you believe the religion that say so. Either it is true or not is not the point, it is all about believe it or not.

 

Bioware intention is clear that they want to make DA universe religion is like real world religion, i mean it is based on believe and not something is there where you don't need to believe because it's there like TES

 

In TES you don't need to believe because everything is factual...Aedra and Daedra are factual. You touch shrines you got blessed, you contact Dadric princes you got something and pay the price. Religion in TES is not about believe, it is about who you want to follow.

 

In DA universe it is not like in TES where religion is about believe. So The Maker will not be proven exist or not. And so other deities.

 

Of course Mythal and Fen'Harel are proven exist and the Elven religion is proven wrong, that's what i don't like about it.

[Anvos]

One thing to keep in mind is that all the "gods" we have learned of so far are products of creation whether the physical world or the fade, so thus none fill or have the role/power of the Maker so none of their existence disproves the existence of a true/prime creator.  What we have learned however is that history like in the real world is far more complicated than some religions would like.

 

Also one thing people need to remember is that while Trespasser and Solas say the Veil didn't exist at the height of the Elven Empire(s) and Solas made the current one that doesn't actually say that the veil/separation of physical and fade isn't originally natural and it would make a lot of sense if a veil did originally exist and is merely something the Evanuras tore down over the millenia to increase their power, plus the existence of an original veil that Solas restored would explain why a group of demigod or higher powered beings couldn't overpower the creation of 1 powerful mage.

 

On a related note I'm not quite sure Solas is right about the Evanuras being the same as him as Mythal surviving her own death in a wisp like fashion seems to imply a strong likelihood the Evanuras while originally just powerful elf mages likely merged with ancient/original fade spirits/demons.  Plus that would explain why other than Solas no other ancient elves ever rivaled their power.

[VorexRyder]

One thing to keep in mind is that all the "gods" we have learned of so far are products of creation whether the physical world or the fade, so thus none fill or have the role/power of the Maker so none of their existence disproves the existence of a true/prime creator.  What we have learned however is that history like in the real world is far more complicated than some religions would like.

 

Also one thing people need to remember is that while Trespasser and Solas say the Veil didn't exist at the height of the Elven Empire(s) and Solas made the current one that doesn't actually say that the veil/separation of physical and fade isn't originally natural and it would make a lot of sense if a veil did originally exist and is merely something the Evanuras tore down over the millenia to increase their power, plus the existence of an original veil that Solas restored would explain why a group of demigod or higher powered beings couldn't overpower the creation of 1 powerful mage.

 

On a related note I'm not quite sure Solas is right about the Evanuras being the same as him as Mythal surviving her own death in a wisp like fashion seems to imply a strong likelihood the Evanuras while originally just powerful elf mages likely merged with ancient/original fade spirits/demons.  Plus that would explain why other than Solas no other ancient elves ever rivaled their power.

Cole does the thing when he looks at someone's pain and sees people who are most likely the Evanuris locked in a prison, The Veil is just a layer of what sealed the Evanuris away, so that they are unable to just use their power to free themselves.

 

The Maker will not be proven exist or not exist, because it will conflict with other belief system in DA Universe. If The Maker is proven exist then all other belief system fall, if he is proven don't exist then it makes other belief system right.

 

The same goes in real world...if Allah proven exist with physical evidence, then all other religion and atheism can go bye-bye...same with if YHWH proven exist, Shiva proven exist, Zeus proven exist....and so on

 

Unless Bioware just want DA universe have only one God and making other religions are false or in other way the Chantry religion is false and other religion is true , they will not make The Maker proven exist or not exist.

A lot of the older, non-Abrahamic religions didn't have the whole: my God is Omnipotent/Invincible/The Only Real God/Perfect, that's a more modern thing and even Yahweh was seen in early on as The Best God Around not The Only Flawless God. Like, they used to believe in the existence other gods, they just believed they sucked hard and weren't anywhere near as powerful or cool as Yahweh.

 

Most other religions had their gods be more like: "Justice League: Admins of the World"; they had special powers, resposibilities over an aspect of nature, and you were supposed to listen to them, but they also had flaws, weaknesses, and some of them weren't even un-aging without the use of some magical substance extending their life-span or required some manner of artifact to do their thing.

 

A god having to be an absolute in order to qualify is a historically recent thing.

[Qis]

 

A lot of the older, non-Abrahamic religions didn't have the whole: my God is Omnipotent/Invincible/The Only Real God/Perfect, that's a more modern thing and even Yahweh was seen in early on as The Best God Around not The Only Flawless God. Like, they used to believe in the existence other gods, they just believed they sucked hard and weren't anywhere near as powerful or cool as Yahweh.

 

Most other religions had their gods be more like: "Justice League: Admins of the World"; they had special powers, resposibilities over an aspect of nature, and you were supposed to listen to them, but they also had flaws, weaknesses, and some of them weren't even un-aging without the use of some magical substance extending their life-span or required some manner of artifact to do their thing.

 

A god having to be an absolute in order to qualify is a historically recent thing.

 

It depends on race and place, every races have own belief system. Middle East and Europe are not the only part of the world. So when talk about religion, we can't generalize.

[Nonoru]

It's better left to the player's imagination I suppose. 

[Medhia_Nox]

@VorexRyder:  I would suggest that you're confusing Andrasteanism with whatever potential Creator entity the Maker is ascribed to being. 

 

There is a significant difference between a religion and it's "God".

[Dai Grepher]

Yes, a Maker exists because made things exist. Who the Maker is as a being is another question, and I would say the Chantry has it right. The Maker's influence was documented during recorded history, and we have witnessed servants of the Maker existing long after they should have, such as in the Temple of Sacred Ashes.

[Nixou]

Going through this I must admit I do wonder if there is a Maker

 

 

Here's the Maker's twitter account

[Ieldra]

Curious... do you also say that there are no such things as aliens?  
 
Cause there's absolutely, without question, zero proof of... and tons of proof against (and more proof that space is so vast that they "might as well" not exist as far as we'll ever be concerned).  Yet I see countless of people who get off on disbelief... believing in their fictional little Federations, Galaxies Far Away and "obviously it's a big space" theories - with the same reckless abandon any religious person puts toward their god(s).  ((Note:  Of course I am not saying you do this... I'd have to know your answer to my first question to know that.) 
 
If we're going to disbelieve on the basis of proof... we should be consistent.

We have at least one example of an intelligent species - ourselves. We have zero examples of creator gods. On those grounds, I find it justified to claim that the existence of intelligent life on one of the trillions of planets that must exist in the known universe is infinitely more probable than than that of a god claimed to have created it all, and to count the probalility that other intelligent life does NOT exist as about equal to that that a god DOES exist - namely, infinitesimally small. Of course it's still possible I'm wrong, probabilities being what they are, but in either case, I find my hypotheses, in both cases, the only rational working hypotheses in the absence of evidence, at this point in time. 
 
I'd apply the same reasoning to Thedas, only with one difference...as you explained in the next part of your post:

As for ideas... we know that Desire, Pride, Fear, Wisdom, Compassion, Rage and a host of uncounted Ideas possess physical forms that are capable of independent thought.  
 
- If all Ideas take physical form in the Fade
- And the Maker is an Idea
- The Maker possesses a physical form in the Fade.
 
Is a more logical argument than its opposite.

It is, in fact, rather likely the Maker may exist as a Fade-spirit created by the ideas in people's minds. After all, that is, at least in part, what the Fade does. I would maintain that hypothesis even if that entity never interacted with the people of Thedas, since the idea it's formed after is of an entity that does not intervene. However, that would be a god created by human passion, not too dissimilar to the Avvar gods, not a god that could have, in any conceivable way, have created the world. Oddly enough, this would've been enough to make the Chantry claims that the Golden City was the seat of the Maker more plausible. They'd just have erred with regard to the Maker's nature.

[Iakus]

We have at least one example of an intelligent species - ourselves. We have zero examples of creator gods. On those grounds, I find it justified to claim that the existence of intelligent life on one of the trillions of planets that must exist in the known universe is infinitely more probable than than that of a god claimed to have created it all, and to count the probalility that other intelligent life does NOT exist as about equal to that that a god DOES exist - namely, infinitesimally small. Of course it's still possible I'm wrong, probabilities being what they are, but in either case, I find my hypotheses, in both cases, the only rational working hypotheses in the absence of evidence, at this point in time. 
 

Creator gods?  No, we haven't met any yet.

 

But gods in general?  Oh, yes, we know they exist.  Your question seems to be is the Maker really the MAKER?

 

 

 

I'd apply the same reasoning to Thedas, only with one difference...as you explained in the next part of your post:
It is, in fact, rather likely the Maker may exist as a Fade-spirit created by the ideas in people's minds. After all, that is, at least in part, what the Fade does. I would maintain that hypothesis even if that entity never interacted with the people of Thedas, since the idea it's formed after is of an entity that does not intervene. However, that would be a god created by human passion, not too dissimilar to the Avvar gods, not a god that could have, in any conceivable way, have created the world. Oddly enough, this would've been enough to make the Chantry claims that the Golden City was the seat of the Maker more plausible. They'd just have erred with regard to the Maker's nature.

 

Possible, but then is there really any functional difference between a Maker that created the world or a world that created the Maker?

[Anvos]

Arguing the Maker can't exist largely runs into the same problem of arguing god doesn't exist in the real world of you can't explain away original energy/matter without resulting in the universe being a paradox.

 

Also when even the oldest fade creatures say the Golden/Black City has always been there and nothing yet refutes them being the oldest form of life that throws a huge wrench in the disbeliever ideology.

[Ieldra]

Your question seems to be is the Maker really the MAKER?

We'd have to use some kind of definition, right? Claiming there is an entity calling itself the Maker, whatever it may be, isn't significant, and the most common definition is the Chantry's.
 
 

Possible, but then is there really any functional difference between a Maker that created the world or a world that created the Maker?

Is this question serious? Just this: in the latter case, you could kill him by spreading disbelief. Which of course, I'd propose to do

[Ieldra]

Arguing the Maker can't exist largely runs into the same problem of arguing god doesn't exist in the real world of you can't explain away original energy/matter without resulting in the universe being a paradox.

Most disbelievers don't claim the Maker can't exist, just that he very probably doesn't.
 

Also when even the oldest fade creatures say the Golden/Black City has always been there and nothing yet refutes them being the oldest form of life that throws a huge wrench in the disbeliever ideology.

The Golden City and the Maker aren't necessarily connected. Also, the Golden City must've been something very different in the time before the Veil.

[Miltialdes]

If the gold city is well Arlathan as I guess then the maker is the tyrant mentionned by Solas. If he is imortal, the elf gods bannished him it is why the throne is empty.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Ieldra:  The question was not:  "Is it probable."  The question is based off the assertion that something should never be believed if it cannot be proven (an assertion I find routinely absurd from everything from love to national boundaries to art).  Aliens, right now, cannot be proven and are purely a matter of faith regardless of how "probable" they are.  

 

That the testimonials of individuals that have had spiritual experiences are aggressively explained away by a dogmatic need to push the agenda of disbelief does not actually discredit said experiences and testimonials as evidence to anyone actually trying to experience the entire scope of what it is to be human.  Not to mention that "finding patterns where none exist" is not relegated to the faithful rube alone.

 

-----

 

Concerning the Maker.  

 

Existence self-propagates.  If the egg makes the chicken, it invalidates neither the egg nor the chicken.  The same is true of the chicken making the egg. 

 

That intelligent species that you are aware exists is - in every literal sense - self-aware universe.  There is nothing separating humanity from the ice rings around Saturn or the diamond core of a dead sun.  So, there is no argument that our actual universe is self-aware. 

 

The Maker could be "Form" and "Thought" - the material space which Thedas occupies and the realm of pure thought which is called "The Fade".  We know that "stuff" can be generated in the Fade and transported to Thedas and vice versa. 

 

So... if the Maker was the very first "Thought" to exist... self-creating the realm of the Fade by constantly thinking... that thought becomes material and makes the material space Thedas occupies.  

 

As for where did the first thought come from?  The same place the material universe and life came from in our own universe.  "They just did."   Both the creation of our universe and the emergence of life are mathematical impossibilities that cannot actually happen... only, they did.

 

Lastly, were you "you" on conception?  Science says yes.  Everything you are was already in "the code" - and yet, the "you" spouting scientific dogma is not the only "you" that was possible.  Your "you" was shaped by experience regardless of certain "hard coded" pieces of you that are unchangeable.

 

So too... could the "Maker" have begun as the material space of Thedas... "Form" prior to thought... and once that material "space" touched upon the Fade it began to realize what "It" was - taking a more active role in its own development.  Not at all unlike a human can shape its course through determination and will.  

 

That you have a particular definition of what the Maker "must be" to fit your view of what the Maker "is" - is not the fault of the material presented.  

[Iakus]

We'd have to use some kind of definition, right? Claiming there is an entity calling itself the Maker, whatever it may be, isn't significant, and the most common definition is the Chantry's.
 

I'd say definition is the heart of the matter.  What is a god?

 

 

Is this question serious? Just this: in the latter case, you could kill him by spreading disbelief. Which of course, I'd propose to do

 

I don't know if you could kill him that way.  Change him, maybe.  But spirits don't seem to be so easily destroyed.

 

And even then, you'd have to undo over a thousand years of constant belief.  Look at how powerful the Nightmare Demon became over the terror of Blights.  And centuries pass between those.

[Iakus]

 

The Maker could be "Form" and "Thought" - the material space which Thedas occupies and the realm of pure thought which is called "The Fade".  We know that "stuff" can be generated in the Fade and transported to Thedas and vice versa. 

 

I should also point out that our view (and that of Thedas in general) of "spirits" or "demons" seems to be quite limited.  It's heavily implied (and the Forbidden Ones are used as an example) that there is more to Fade creatures than just these.  Deeper in the Fade are implied to be creatures even stranger and more powerful. 

[Medhia_Nox]

I'd say definition is the heart of the matter.  What is a god?

 

 

I don't know if you could kill him that way.  Change him, maybe.  But spirits don't seem to be so easily destroyed.

 

And even then, you'd have to undo over a thousand years of constant belief.  Look at how powerful the Nightmare Demon became over the terror of Blights.  And centuries pass between those.

And if the Maker is a spirit... what kind of spirit is he?

It's not like you're EVER going to stop people from believing in the Fear demon.  

 

The Maker - if it is a spirit - would not be like a regional God (YHVH for example) it would be an abstract drawing power from a specific source which couldn't just be "disbelieved".  If "Creativity" or "Imagination" or "Belief" or "Idea" is the Maker's schtick... it would be impossible to kill (the lower Vices and Virtues are impossible to kill... so much more for broader, more universal concepts)... and you can even go broader like "Thought" suggesting that even animals would contribute to its being. 

 

And then, of course, if it is something so broad as a "Creation" spirit... the simple act of the first thing it created would provide it power (like the apsens I mentioned).