101 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

And if the Maker is a spirit... what kind of spirit is he?

It's not like you're EVER going to stop people from believing in the Fear demon.  

 

The Maker - if it is a spirit - would not be like a regional God (YHVH for example) it would be an abstract drawing power from a specific source which couldn't just be "disbelieved".  If "Creativity" or "Imagination" or "Belief" or "Idea" is the Maker's schtick... it would be impossible to kill (the lower Vices and Virtues are impossible to kill... so much more for broader, more universal concepts)... and you can even go broader like "Thought" suggesting that even animals would contribute to its being. 

 

And then, of course, if it is something so broad as a "Creation" spirit... the simple act of the first thing it created would provide it power (like the apsens I mentioned).

Huh, makes it sound almost like Gaiman's Endless, anthropomorphic personifications of basic qualities, liek Death, Dream, desire, etc.

 

Hmm, I wonder if this is the Maker?  

 

[Medhia_Nox]

@Iakus:  Anthropomorphism is necessary and ingrained in our being because we ARE those things... because we are the universe. 

 

We are death because we die (and because we can kill)... dream because we dream... desire because we yearn... 

 

To me... I see people who try to divorce themselves from myth in the real world... like Solas sees everyone on modern Thedas.  Tranquil.  

 

On Thedas... of course they invented a "City" for the Maker to dwell in... and a "Throne" for him to rule from... and a "Bride" for him to fall in love with.  Because men create civilization as the embodiment of our eusociability (we're not "officially" eusocial creatures... and certainly not successful ones... but we try) - we govern one another from "thrones" or positions of authority... and we take on loved ones "Brides" which change the rules which we have governed ourselves by... 

 

The Fade simply responds to whomever first envisioned such places.  

[Kezza]

Well after finishing trespasser, the maker could be influencing some things. I will give the line of the orb being destroyed and causing the slow down of his plans. Although I will admit this can be seen as grasping at straws.

corypheus survives the encounter with the champion and gets the orb indirectly from Solas. Then he happens to survive unlocking it and the inquisitor gets the mark needed to stop him. Then through your efforts to finally close the breach the orbs is broken due to events. All these events lead to the destruction of the orb.

I could take this back further to the Warden and the blight which lead some events to it but I feel that might taking a simple theory too far.

[Qis]

If The Maker is a spirit, then who make The Maker spirit?

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

Honestly the best idea that someone classifiable as a "maker" (Hint hint Uber Powerful Pride Demon that Possessed Andraste Hint Hint" is the whole "caged arch demon" thing. If arch demons are just blighted dragons blights should happen a lot more than they do. There should also have been a bajillion before the pentagahsts killed 99.9% of them. The old gods, or Super Powerful Dragons, have to be locked away then or somehow protected.

[akbogert]

As many folks have said, I think there's nothing in Inquisition (can't speak to the other games) that definitively supports or dismisses the existence of a Maker. One of my favorite dialogue trees was after Here Lies the Abyss, when the inquisitor could maintain that the Maker could still have willed the series of events at the Temple of Sacred Ashes, even if neither he nor Andraste directly imbued the inquisitor with the anchor. Could just as easily have come out a strong skeptic/abandoning any religious faith at that point (if you had any to lose). But there was (as in real life) enough wiggle room that the actual definitive disproving or proving of the deity remains out of reach. 

[Asheruc]

I think the Maker was once a spirit, now a demon. I believe Solas explained that demons are spirits that lost their purpose, having been perverted like Wisdom or Faith becoming Pride. Reading about the First and Second Sins, it would make sense for the Maker to have lost his faith in his creations after being betrayed twice. Thus losing his purpose and becoming a demon. Perhaps he's now Nightmare from past fears of betrayal coming true. But one might think he's a spirit of Creation and instead was turned into a yet to be revealed Destroyer demon that created the blight. Because by what Corypheus says, when the Magister's entered the golden city they found nothing but the blight which they gained new power from.

 

That was my 1st theory. But then I read that it was stated by the Chantry that the Maker was the one to create the veil yet who do we find out was really the one to create it? The Dread Wolf. 

[Ashagar]

What the chantry stated was that the maker created the physical world and the fade. The ancient Neromenians and later ancient Tevinter Imperium also believed the maker created the physical world and the fade. Solas and the elven god kings for that matter did not create either. All Solas did was create a powerful barrier between the two. It id highly likely hoerbrt at least a weak barrier existed before that otherwise there wouldn't have been a physical world with living things like dragons, titans or mortals for that matter which existed even the reference to some of the elven god kings hunting mortal tribes for sport only a malleable world of spirits.

[Absafraginlootly]

If he exists the Maker mightn't necessarily have anything in common with the chant version of him (which was written years after Andraste's death) let alone the modern interpretation of it. He could pretty much be anything.

 

I'd rather enjoyed how in previous games religions were based upon faith rather than certainty, it made the dragon age world feel the realer for it.

 

But now that they've let the cat out of the bag on some on the other religions (The Stone = Titans, Elven Gods = Evanuris) I'd rather they finish the job and eventually reveal a bit about the nature of the maker aswell.

[CardButton]

If he exists the Maker mightn't necessarily have anything in common with the chant version of him (which was written years after Andraste's death) let alone the modern interpretation of it. He could pretty much be anything.

 

I'd rather enjoyed how in previous games religions were based upon faith rather than certainty, it made the dragon age world feel the realer for it.

 

But now that they've let the cat out of the bag on some on the other religions (The Stone = Titans, Elven Gods = Evanuris) I'd rather they finish the job and eventually reveal a bit about the nature of the maker aswell.

Hmm... while I agree I doubt we'll ever figure out whether the Maker actually exists or not, though that doesn't mean that Andrasteism wont get a big reveal eventually.  

 

My thoughts are it wont be whether the Maker exists, but whether the Golden/Black City has anything to do with the Maker at all.  

[Guildmasterron]

Alright, folks, I'll admit it:

 

I am the MAKER!

[Iakus]

@Iakus:  Anthropomorphism is necessary and ingrained in our being because we ARE those things... because we are the universe. 

 

We are death because we die (and because we can kill)... dream because we dream... desire because we yearn... 

 

To me... I see people who try to divorce themselves from myth in the real world... like Solas sees everyone on modern Thedas.  Tranquil.  

 

 

Sure, we are aspects of these things.  Though no single aspect totally dominates us (not like Fade spirits).  We die, we can kill, but that doesn't make is the Grim Reaper because we are capable of so  much more than death.

 

I do think that the universe is far larger and stranger than most people give it credit for.  

 

 

 

On Thedas... of course they invented a "City" for the Maker to dwell in... and a "Throne" for him to rule from... and a "Bride" for him to fall in love with.  Because men create civilization as the embodiment of our eusociability (we're not "officially" eusocial creatures... and certainly not successful ones... but we try) - we govern one another from "thrones" or positions of authority... and we take on loved ones "Brides" which change the rules which we have governed ourselves by...

The Fade simply responds to whomever first envisioned such places.

 

But the thing is, the Fade responds to all dreams.  Not just the one who had it first.  So if the Golden/Blackened City was created by people's dreams of a Maker in a Golden City, why does the city not change based on individual perception?  Would a Tevinter magister not see it differently from a Ferelden Circle mage or a Dalish Keeper or a Marcher apostate?  Would the City not change also over time, as styles and technology and culture changed?  Yet the City is the one constant in the Fade.  Historical documents even show that when it blackened it blackened all at once for everyone.  

[rapscallioness]

If we want to know more about the "Maker" we need to learn more about the Neromenians and their belief systems.  We learned alot about the Elven Mage-kings/Evanuris. The dwarven Titans...and some type of weird interaction between them that I'm not too certain about what's going on there. I feel there is more to learn there.

 

I love it. I absolutely love this kind of thing.

 

So now I think we need to explore these Neromenian/Tevinter original beliefs before they turned their energy to these old gods. I could imagine this severely weakened this Creator being if it was a type of Spirit. Annnd that's why the Chant needs to be sung at all four corners of Thedas for the Maker to return. It needs the energy to remanifest? But then even if it did return, would it know who/what it was? Would it be the same personality Andraste claimed to interact with?

 

And what was the nature of that interaction with this being and Andraste? Was it like the augur's in JoH where you take a spirit into yourself for awhile to learn, but you are supposed to release them later. That one lady did not want to release her spirit. Did Andraste release hers, or did she , too, want to hold on to it?

 

What would that do to a spirit? would it be like Justice and Anders where this too long association could twist the spirit? Is that why Maferath really betrayed Andraste? He saw the spirit being twisted, perhaps a sacred spirit. He found out that she was keeping it, and had her killed in order to free this spirit?

 

Eh. But basically according to Solas the spirits can be created by a powerful idea, or if a spirit makes other ideas itself, then it could return in some form. But it would not be the same.

 

I would like to learn more about Andraste, the Neromenian belief system, the Qunari and how they fit into all this high strangeness. And yes the Maker. I mean, I hope they don't get precious about it. They weren't precious about the Evanuris reveal. Or their Creator gods. The Maker should not be more important or taboo to deal with than the elven gods. Or the dwarven stone--which I'm still confused on but, it's  a start.

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

If he exists the Maker mightn't necessarily have anything in common with the chant version of him (which was written years after Andraste's death) let alone the modern interpretation of it. He could pretty much be anything.

 

I'd rather enjoyed how in previous games religions were based upon faith rather than certainty, it made the dragon age world feel the realer for it.

 

But now that they've let the cat out of the bag on some on the other religions (The Stone = Titans, Elven Gods = Evanuris) I'd rather they finish the job and eventually reveal a bit about the nature of the maker aswell.

They can't do that. People would draw parallels to christanity and then bioware is filled with all sort of southern stereotypical peeps.

That's a rabbit hole you and I both know what's at the end. No point in wondering. Especially since it's been explicitly stated that they'll never say one way or the other on the maker.

[Ashagar]

If we want to know more about the "Maker" we need to learn more about the Neromenians and their belief systems.  We learned alot about the Elven Mage-kings/Evanuris. The dwarven Titans...and some type of weird interaction between them that I'm not too certain about what's going on there. I feel there is more to learn there.

 

I love it. I absolutely love this kind of thing.

 

So now I think we need to explore these Neromenian/Tevinter original beliefs before they turned their energy to these old gods. I could imagine this severely weakened this Creator being if it was a type of Spirit. Annnd that's why the Chant needs to be sung at all four corners of Thedas for the Maker to return. It needs the energy to remanifest? But then even if it did return, would it know who/what it was? Would it be the same personality Andraste claimed to interact with?

 

And what was the nature of that interaction with this being and Andraste? Was it like the augur's in JoH where you take a spirit into yourself for awhile to learn, but you are supposed to release them later. That one lady did not want to release her spirit. Did Andraste release hers, or did she , too, want to hold on to it?

 

What would that do to a spirit? would it be like Justice and Anders where this too long association could twist the spirit? Is that why Maferath really betrayed Andraste? He saw the spirit being twisted, perhaps a sacred spirit. He found out that she was keeping it, and had her killed in order to free this spirit?

 

Eh. But basically according to Solas the spirits can be created by a powerful idea, or if a spirit makes other ideas itself, then it could return in some form. But it would not be the same.

 

I would like to learn more about Andraste, the Neromenian belief system, the Qunari and how they fit into all this high strangeness. And yes the Maker. I mean, I hope they don't get precious about it. They weren't precious about the Evanuris reveal. Or their Creator gods. The Maker should not be more important or taboo to deal with than the elven gods. Or the dwarven stone--which I'm still confused on but, it's  a start.

 

Given the next game is mostly taking place in the Tevinter Imperium which was the heartland of the Neromenians and the Tevinter, it would be vastly shocking if we didn't find out anything about the beliefs of both the Noermenian tribes and the ancient Tevinter Imperium concerning the creator diety later known as the Maker.

 

There has to be not just ancient records but ancient human ruins to explore. If we are really lucky there be might living remains of the ancient maker cult lingering in the Imperium's hinterlands.

[Iakus]

If we want to know more about the "Maker" we need to learn more about the Neromenians and their belief systems.  We learned alot about the Elven Mage-kings/Evanuris. The dwarven Titans...and some type of weird interaction between them that I'm not too certain about what's going on there. I feel there is more to learn there.

 

I love it. I absolutely love this kind of thing.

 

So now I think we need to explore these Neromenian/Tevinter original beliefs before they turned their energy to these old gods. I could imagine this severely weakened this Creator being if it was a type of Spirit. Annnd that's why the Chant needs to be sung at all four corners of Thedas for the Maker to return. It needs the energy to remanifest? But then even if it did return, would it know who/what it was? Would it be the same personality Andraste claimed to interact with?

 

And what was the nature of that interaction with this being and Andraste? Was it like the augur's in JoH where you take a spirit into yourself for awhile to learn, but you are supposed to release them later. That one lady did not want to release her spirit. Did Andraste release hers, or did she , too, want to hold on to it?

 

What would that do to a spirit? would it be like Justice and Anders where this too long association could twist the spirit? Is that why Maferath really betrayed Andraste? He saw the spirit being twisted, perhaps a sacred spirit. He found out that she was keeping it, and had her killed in order to free this spirit?

 

Eh. But basically according to Solas the spirits can be created by a powerful idea, or if a spirit makes other ideas itself, then it could return in some form. But it would not be the same.

 

I would like to learn more about Andraste, the Neromenian belief system, the Qunari and how they fit into all this high strangeness. And yes the Maker. I mean, I hope they don't get precious about it. They weren't precious about the Evanuris reveal. Or their Creator gods. The Maker should not be more important or taboo to deal with than the elven gods. Or the dwarven stone--which I'm still confused on but, it's  a start.

The Chant of Light being some kind of ritual to summon/revitalize a spirit is an intriguing one.  A way to spread belief to power up the being,

 

If Andraste did take in a spirit, I suspect she had released it at some point.  OTherwise I think attempts to execute her would have been a bit more... pyrotechnic.  As in, going all demon-y and trying to esape.

 

Unless that did happen, and Hessarian's Sword of Mercy was to free Andraste?

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

The Chant of Light being some kind of ritual to summon/revitalize a spirit is an intriguing one.  A way to spread belief to power up the being,

 

If Andraste did take in a spirit, I suspect she had released it at some point.  OTherwise I think attempts to execute her would have been a bit more... pyrotechnic.  As in, going all demon-y and trying to esape.

 

Unless that did happen, and Hessarian's Sword of Mercy was to free Andraste?

I've been saying it all along maan. Andraste was a mage and the maker is a pride demon. She was put to the stake, as most abominations, and hesarion took pity on who she used to be and freed her from her torment. Remember the temple of Sacred Ashes in origins? "She called to the hevans and bade the waters flow and flood away their filth" "Famine was her weapon as she razed field of grain"

That's magic son. That makes her "fevered dreams" simply being possessed by a demon.

[Ashagar]

That andreste was a mage is what the Tevinter chantry held before the southern chantry even existed, that doesn't mean a demon was involved and indeed it is highly unlikely one was involved, a pride demon pretending to be a long preexisting god, given the maker is literally the same entity as the ancient Neromenian, Tevinter creator deity. besides the Tevinter Magisters wouldn't have any trouble dealing with a mere pride demon or abomination even one with a army,

[rapscallioness]

Given the next game is mostly taking place in the Tevinter Imperium which was the heartland of the Neromenians and the Tevinter, it would be vastly shocking if we didn't find out anything about the beliefs of both the Noermenian tribes and the ancient Tevinter Imperium concerning the creator diety later known as the Maker.

 

There has to be not just ancient records but ancient human ruins to explore. If we are really lucky there be might living remains of the ancient maker cult lingering in the Imperium's hinterlands.

 

Yes, this excites me.

[rapscallioness]

The Chant of Light being some kind of ritual to summon/revitalize a spirit is an intriguing one.  A way to spread belief to power up the being,

 

If Andraste did take in a spirit, I suspect she had released it at some point.  OTherwise I think attempts to execute her would have been a bit more... pyrotechnic.  As in, going all demon-y and trying to esape.

 

Unless that did happen, and Hessarian's Sword of Mercy was to free Andraste?

 

 

Ooo, that is interesting. I could see that.

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

That andreste was a mage is what the Tevinter chantry held before the southern chantry even existed, that doesn't mean a demon was involved and indeed it is highly unlikely one was involved, a pride demon pretending to be a long preexisting god, given the maker is literally the same entity as the ancient Neromenian, Tevinter creator deity. besides the Tevinter Magisters wouldn't have any trouble dealing with a mere pride demon or abomination even one with a army,

I'm not big on the demon hierarchy but I see no problem with it being a super powerful demon. The Maker existed before? Who said demons die?

[rapscallioness]

Apparently I never saw this stuff about Andraste. Just got this from the good old Dragon Age Wikia. Weird stuff.

 

"According to some scholars, Andraste was born into the Ciriane tribe in -203 Ancient (992 TE) in Denerim, which was then a fishing village. Her mother was an Alamarri^[2] woman named Brona and her father was the chieftain of one of the largest Alamarri tribes in what is now northern Ferelden.^[3]

 

When her sister Haliserre died in a violent incident under mysterious circumstances, Andraste was left with a sickness that made her unable to bear children for a decade. She also was known to display strange behavior, such as becoming still for long moments in an trance-like state, after which she would report voices as if from a lost memory and talk of strange auras or the sound of bells.^[4]

 

Andraste was a woman who rose to greatness, first as a slave of the Tevinter Imperium, then as a prophet, war leader, and religious icon."

 

And also..

 

"From an early age, Andraste suffered troubling dreams of a deity known as the Maker.^[3] Over time she began to interpret these dreams as the answer to questions that plagued her, and she came to believe that the Maker was the supreme being who had abandoned the world when his people took up the worship of the Old Gods..."

 

I was under the impression that the whole Maker thing did not come about until she was grown up. Even though I understand that the Maker is a new name for the creator deity, but I thought this was not an issue for her until later in her life.

 

Was she in Tevinter when this started? Is she a Dreamer? I'd be curious to know how she came to these interpretations and conclusions, why and when precisely. I thought it was a one time revelation on the mountain thing. However, it comes off like she's been putzing around with all this most of her life.

[rapscallioness]

And ofc if you ask Solas about the Maker he just says, "Not my problem."

 

What?

 

[Absafraginlootly]

They can't do that. People would draw parallels to christanity and then bioware is filled with all sort of southern stereotypical peeps.

That's a rabbit hole you and I both know what's at the end. No point in wondering. Especially since it's been explicitly stated that they'll never say one way or the other on the maker.

 

I know they've stated before they they don't intend to reveal it, I hoping they'll change their mind now that they've started down that road with the other religions.

 

The chantry is a fictional religion in a fictional world, if someone wants to get offended at story revelations about a fictional religion and pretend that its the devs insulting their religion, then frankly that's their problem. There are probably various reasons why bioware might decide never to do any reveals about andrastianism/the maker/andraste, but this should not be one of them.

[cindercatz]

As a reference to God, it's left as a question of faith for the player character (until further notice). People have different degrees of faith, belief and disbelief, and we can create characters of all stripes of belief, reflecting that. From a meta perspective (for now at least), "The Maker" also represents the game developers, laying out the paths players tread down when we play the game. 

 

If they ever personify the maker in the series, that would all change, but until then, the answer is another question: What does your character believe?