101 réponses à ce sujet

[cindercatz]

That andreste was a mage is what the Tevinter chantry held before the southern chantry even existed, that doesn't mean a demon was involved and indeed it is highly unlikely one was involved, a pride demon pretending to be a long preexisting god, given the maker is literally the same entity as the ancient Neromenian, Tevinter creator deity. besides the Tevinter Magisters wouldn't have any trouble dealing with a mere pride demon or abomination even one with a army,

Also, Tevinter's been around longer than the fade itself, right? Solas created the fade preceding the fall of the ancient elvhen empire, and Tevinter is what directly replaced it. Spirits believe themselves the Maker's first children, demons being spirits that are fixated on the second children and the physical world. The ancient elves, then, predate modern fade spirits. So "The Maker" being any kind of demon makes no sense.

[Anvos]

The veil doesn't change the nature of either world just separates them.

 

Spirits and demons existed before the current veil they just were able to manifest at will in the physical world.

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

I know they've stated before they they don't intend to reveal it, I hoping they'll change their mind now that they've started down that road with the other religions.

 

The chantry is a fictional religion in a fictional world, if someone wants to get offended at story revelations about a fictional religion and pretend that its the devs insulting their religion, then frankly that's their problem. There are probably various reasons why bioware might decide never to do any reveals about andrastianism/the maker/andraste, but this should not be one of them.

Oh I meant how the whiny sect of this fandom would get ass huffy about how bioware actively support Christianity, a religion that murders, pillages, and slaughters the Young And Innocent.

Not that they do, that's ridiculous but that's never stopped bsn before.

[Ashagar]

I am always annoyed by those who try to demonize or belittle religion or atheism and try to make either out to be evil when they aren't with exceptions of a few thankfully long dead real religions.

 

As for the Maker, I don't see any direct revelations beyond finding out more about what the ancient Neromenians and the later ancient Tevinter Imperium believed about him and how it might contrasts to current Andrastian beliefs. I also think we get to see modern Tevinter Imperium's Andrastiasm and how it contrasts with the south instead of just getting hearsay.

[Kantr]

Also, Tevinter's been around longer than the fade itself, right? Solas created the fade preceding the fall of the ancient elvhen empire, and Tevinter is what directly replaced it. Spirits believe themselves the Maker's first children, demons being spirits that are fixated on the second children and the physical world. The ancient elves, then, predate modern fade spirits. So "The Maker" being any kind of demon makes no sense.

Spirits don't believe anything about the maker. None of them have any idea if he exists or not.

 

Solas created the veil but tevinter didn't replace the ancient elvhen empire, they just scavenged from it and then created their own

[Ashagar]

Yah all the spirits know is that the mortal dead pass though the fade and go some place beyond the fade at least as far as we know. If there were any that know more they are likely so deep in the fade that even Solas couldn't reach them.

[In Exile]

Also, Tevinter's been around longer than the fade itself, right? Solas created the fade preceding the fall of the ancient elvhen empire, and Tevinter is what directly replaced it. Spirits believe themselves the Maker's first children, demons being spirits that are fixated on the second children and the physical world. The ancient elves, then, predate modern fade spirits. So "The Maker" being any kind of demon makes no sense.

I don't think that's true. We don't know how long the ancient elven society existed for after the Veil was created (the Fade always existed). I think Solas also implies humans existed before but that isn't so clear to me.

[Ashagar]

There are certainly references in lore to mortal races before the veil and that they were apparently hunted for sport by some of the more blood thirsty elven god kings.

[Iakus]

I've been saying it all along maan. Andraste was a mage and the maker is a pride demon. She was put to the stake, as most abominations, and hesarion took pity on who she used to be and freed her from her torment. Remember the temple of Sacred Ashes in origins? "She called to the hevans and bade the waters flow and flood away their filth" "Famine was her weapon as she razed field of grain"

That's magic son. That makes her "fevered dreams" simply being possessed by a demon.

I can't imagine burning at the stake is a common punishment for known abominations.  The potential for hilarity ensuing is just too great.

 

Also, while the possibility certainly exists that Andraste was a mage, WoT v2 indicates that these incidents, the famines and such, were natural disasters which happened to weaken the Imperium even further.  Andraste and Maferath  took advantage of that and called them divine providence.  Whether it was or not is questionable, but I think they go a bit beyond mortal magic.  Or even demonic power. 

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

I can't imagine burning at the stake is a common punishment for known abominations.  The potential for hilarity ensuing is just too great.

 

Also, while the possibility certainly exists that Andraste was a mage, WoT v2 indicates that these incidents, the famines and such, were natural disasters which happened to weaken the Imperium even further.  Andraste and Maferath  took advantage of that and called them divine providence.  Whether it was or not is questionable, but I think they go a bit beyond mortal magic.  Or even demonic power. 

Oh? Solas made the veil. A demon just as old would know many things and be very powerful.

Don't they burn dead aboms? I know the explode but I can't imagine they'd leave an untransformed corpse just laying there.

[Iakus]

Oh? Solas made the veil. A demon just as old would know many things and be very powerful.

Don't they burn dead aboms? I know the explode but I can't imagine they'd leave an untransformed corpse just laying there.

Burning the dead is common practice in Thedas, yes.

 

But Andraste was burned alive.  I can't imagine thy'd risk that if the Vints knew, or even thought, she was possessed.  They' would have simply killed her rather than go through the spectacle of an execution.

 

And while a demon may be powerful, could a demon do everything Andraste is believed to have done?  Would a demon that powerful allow itself to be captured and executed?

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

Burning the dead is common practice in Thedas, yes.

 

But Andraste was burned alive.  I can't imagine thy'd risk that if the Vints knew, or even thought, she was possessed.  They' would have simply killed her rather than go through the spectacle of an execution.

 

And while a demon may be powerful, could a demon do everything Andraste is believed to have done?  Would a demon that powerful allow itself to be captured and executed?

Can you even execute a demon? Can a demon really die? IIRC All New Faded For Her said that they eventually come back.

Aside from that is burning them alive on a stake or burning them dead like a log really all that different to a historical recollection written by the victor?

[Iakus]

Can you even execute a demon? Can a demon really die? IIRC All New Faded For Her said that they eventually come back.

Aside from that is burning them alive on a stake or burning them dead like a log really all that different to a historical recollection written by the victor?

You can't really kill a demon, no.  But you can banish them back to the Fade.

 

And burning a possessed person alive would likely be a lot harder, given the spirit/demon is likely to fight back with anything at its disposal (unless it pulls an Anders and lets you kill them, I guess).

 

And what really happened is kind of the question.  We know the whole "Andraste was burned at the stake, and Hessarian stabbed her with his sword to put her out of her misery"  But the question becomes:  would her being a mage have  changed these events?  Or if she was possessed?  I think either of these would have made her too dangerous for a public, not to mention slow and painful, execution.

[Anvos]

You assume that Tevintar didn't have their own methods of warding against mage criminals and when lore already includes stuff that is warded/enchanted against magic it isn't that hard to believe Tevintar such could have been used.

 

Not to mention you underestimate the sheer contempt most Magister Lords would have towards somebody who has stolen half the empire out from under them when they managed to hold the empire together through centuries of the first blight and then should have been their time to rebuild and reassert the empire's power and need.

 

Plus when even in the White Divine nations you can still find enough information that would imply apostate abomination, I have a feeling this view point will get even stronger and more likely as we see Tevintar and were such information wouldn't be purposely covered up by the church.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Huh, makes it sound almost like Gaiman's Endless, anthropomorphic personifications of basic qualities, liek Death, Dream, desire, etc.

 

Hmm, I wonder if this is the Maker?  

 

 

If that means I get a visit by Death when I finally pass the bucket, then god I hope so.

 

 

[cindercatz]

Spirits don't believe anything about the maker. None of them have any idea if he exists or not.

Solas created the veil but tevinter didn't replace the ancient elvhen empire, they just scavenged from it and then created their own

I was referring to a codex entry I remember, where a mage is trying to learn more about it from his dealings with spirits in the fade. Meaning that modern understanding of how things got the way they are at least partly comes from spirits. Also from Justice's conversation about the difference between those spirits content to live in the fade versus demons constantly seeking a way into the mortal world, and/or influencing mortals (in DA:A). Which boils down to jealousy, consistent with the codex entries.

edit: Tevinter came in and ransacked the carcass of the ancient elvhen empire, yes, but they are still the culture that directly replaced it. True we don't know how long that took, after the remaining elves basically closed up shop and went into shell hybernation mode. I imagine we're talking about a very, very long time, since humans as they are would basically be incompatible with that world (going off Solas' statements). Remember the war that preceded that (Descent) was apparently a war with the titans. Titans appear to practically be the world itself. Lyrium being their blood and that flowing all through the ground Thedosians live on everyday. Thedas was very, very different in its time of myth. That's what I take from it.

[cindercatz]

I don't think that's true. We don't know how long the ancient elven society existed for after the Veil was created (the Fade always existed). I think Solas also implies humans existed before but that isn't so clear to me.

I'm not so sure the fade existed before. What is the fade without the veil? It's the same thing. Hence why all the races that came into being afterward would be destroyed along with the destruction of the veil according to Solas. Without the veil, the fade and the physical world are one. The nature of reality changes. So only beings that were created or born into that original paradigm would survive. Spirits as they were before they became modern fade spirits. Elves as they were when magic was like breathing and their lives were eternal. The fade drives everything in it mad, right? Not because it's topsy-turvy, but because it's an unnatural state of being, including for the spirits. Without the veil, the fade and the physical world are one.

[Ashagar]

The fade always existed as did the physical world, all the veil is a powerful artificial barrier that prevents them from interacting, they are separate but connected places that would naturally interact with each other if it wasn't for Solas's creation, the veil. Spirits entering and leaving the world at will as implied happening before the veil sill means that they are coming and returning from somewhere and that place is the fade.

[Anvos]

Actually we don't know what the natural state of separation or lack there of fade and physical is as all we know is at the height of the elven empire their wasn't a barrier between fade and physical.  An original barrier that the Evanuris tore down to strengthen their power and claim to godhood is still a possibility though.

[Gervaise]

Actually I have always had the theory that the reason they burnt Andraste is that the Magisters wanted to ensure that her body couldn't be possessed by a spirit after death.  Their empire had been built on working with spirits (demons) to gain power.    They must have been aware of faith spirits and I can't believe that Wynne was the first time a spirit had intervened and saved someone from death.    Even if a spirit didn't save the actual woman but simply inhabited her corpse (as Justice did Kristoff) it could still have serious repercussions through the effect on the downtrodden populace seeing someone cheat the death that had been imposed upon them.     So they opted for burning at the stake to ensure that nothing would be left to resurrect and furthermore doing it in front of the massed ranks of the population would ensure there were enough witnesses that no one could maintain she had survived.   In fact, if they suspected she  was inhabited by a spirit already, that could account even more for why they burnt her and why, when Hessarian was satisfied that no spirit was going to manifest itself (which in itself would be instructive to the assembled populace) he mercifully put an end to her.  

 

If the Maker does exist, then he is in a place beyond the Fade, or alternatively the whole of existence, Fade and Thedas exists within him, so effectively he is like a giant Titan but a spiritual rather than a material being.    Essentially he is the Great Spirit.     Actually Leliana's beliefs in Origins fit with this since she maintained the Chantry were wrong to say the Maker had left them but that he was everywhere, in the wind in the trees, in the earth, etc.    She believed the Maker given her a vision too.   This being the case, the Maker may have spoken with Andraste but alternatively it could have been another spiritual being posing as the Maker, or just all in her own head.  

[Alex Hawke]

A lucky powerful spirit that feeds on human's stupidity? Quite possible.

 

A some all-something world-creating entity? Unlikely, because every player would test how much the thing is Inquisitor-proof. And if the Maker existed, Solas or Evanuris would've stumbled upon it with predictable result.

 

Spoiler

Yet, it might be considered controversial reference to Christianity or Islam, so the safe bet not to reveal the truth.

As Morrigan says, "I've no primitive fear of the moon such that I must place my faith in tales so that I may sleep at night"

[In Exile]

I'm not so sure the fade existed before. What is the fade without the veil? It's the same thing. Hence why all the races that came into being afterward would be destroyed along with the destruction of the veil according to Solas. Without the veil, the fade and the physical world are one. The nature of reality changes. So only beings that were created or born into that original paradigm would survive. Spirits as they were before they became modern fade spirits. Elves as they were when magic was like breathing and their lives were eternal. The fade drives everything in it mad, right? Not because it's topsy-turvy, but because it's an unnatural state of being, including for the spirits. Without the veil, the fade and the physical world are one.

Solas talks about the Fade absent the Veil. And the codices in the Library in Trespasser make clear reference to the Fade (and to spirits). The Fade wasn't a place, but much like the Weave in D&D it was still a separate and distinct feature of the world.

[MuggsBG]

The Maker is an idea, a concept. An instrument of the narrative for a monotheistic religion and in this case the world's lore. It is the beginning and end of every choice as well as the test and purpose of a believer's faith. Whether or not an actual figure ever stood behind the image doesn't matter.

[Ash Wind]

Yes, there is... "he is the lord thy god, but you may call him Hank." paraphrased from beavis and butthead.

[cindercatz]

Solas talks about the Fade absent the Veil. And the codices in the Library in Trespasser make clear reference to the Fade (and to spirits). The Fade wasn't a place, but much like the Weave in D&D it was still a separate and distinct feature of the world.

I agree to an extent, except that what we're talking about is an intricate aspect of the world, not another dimension altogether as now in the story. He verifies the naturally eternal lifespans and magic like the air you breathe, no limitations of interaction with spirits, which again means the spirits themselves were something very, very different before the veil. Otherwise, they'd just have had chaos. So to me, that's closer to a difference between some DA version of Heaven and the mundane world than a description of something more along the lines of a more typical fantasy world, which is closer to what I think most people are envisioning. It's an entirely different paradigm of everyday life. Nature is entirely different. It doesn't entirely jive with Solas depiction of himself as a liberator, but then Fen'Harel is basically the DA trickster deity, like Loki or the DA softer kinder bizarroworld (false) version of a fallen angel that a lot of people believe in, someone who rebelled and cut himself and others off from their paradise, on the grounds that they could freely choose 'freedom' or 'slavery', who's now trying to get back his version of Heaven. You can't trust anything he says. It's his nature to decieve, if that's who he is. Mythal was never particularly nice either, even though she's acted as the catalyst for our protagonists in the series. We know how needlessly cruel she can be thanks to Morrigan, how she was brought up, and Solas obviously didn't rebel against her. Then you have the necessary mutually agreed sacrifice of one required to break the veil. They're not Christian allegory, they're lucipherian. So we can't assume anything benevolent about what happened in Thedas' ancient past regarding them. They're complex characters, don't assume we know so much about them.