38 réponses à ce sujet

[gothpunkboy89]

Well if you are in the future, the amount of firepower at the disposal of spacefaring species is staggering. 

 

Who knows what happens 300 years from now. I am pretty sure, no one in 1715 had imagined how the world looks like today and the pace is only accelerating. My nation  isn´t really mad at the swedes for the Great Nordic War anymore for example.

 

Without the Geth, the other thing left are normal AIs. They already built one. Don´t see EDI taking over the whole galactic network anytime soon.

 

And that is the point. The fire power if an organic and synthetic race went to war. Particularly if one side was desperate enough could render multiple planets barren balls of dirt. When two organic species fight over a planet lets use Turian and Krogan. Neither one would want to render the planet completely uninhabitable. Krogans can handle more harsh conditions then other species. But even Tuchunka is still live sustaining if only barely. A war to wipe out an entire group how ever will lose that little bit of restraint.  This has a large and far reaching effect on organic life and its ability to further develop or develop at all on planets. For an AI devoted to perserving organic life at all cost this is a big no no.

 

Or lets put it this way. The Protheans orbital bombarded a planet 50,000 years ago and it is still a dead planet. The Reapers invaded Eden Prime 50,000 years ago and it is considered a green verdant planet with it's own natural wild life.

 

But it just really seems like you didn't talk or pay attention to Tali and other Quarians did you? Or if you did you are conveniently forgetting it because it would go against your narrative.  Lets compare them to your example

 

-Were you forced into exile from your home planet (country)?

 

-Are you faced with suspicion and distrust on every world and station you visit? To the point of simply walking around and someone just thinking you did something wrong is valid enough reason for the police or security of that place to attempt to arrest you?

 

-Was your biology uniquely suited for your home planet (country) so much so that any attempt to be in a different environment can lead to a heavy infection leading to possible death if not in a full bio hazard suit?

 

-Was while traveling in your sterile environment did your immune system weaken even more to the point you need to be in full bio hazard suit even around your family?

 

-Is even the simple act of child creation or giving birth now a dangerous act that can lead to a heavy infection?

 

-Do you and your entire family live in a small cramped space to the point an entire family can live in a single room. Or more modern equivalent and entire family living inside the space of a van.

 

-Did you make a mistake that you tried to correct but failed to. Though the mistake didn't have terribly far reaching negative effects are treated by the UN as if you released the Black Death all over again even though only your people suffered from it. And 300 years later are still treated just as negatively by them? Being treated almost the exact same as a group of people that waged a massive near genocidal war?

 

-Do you have to sit in a hermetically sealed environment while you sit back and watch countless others enjoy small things like the smell of fresh baked bread. The feeling of the wind on your face. The taste of food that hasn't been ground up into a pastes and sterilized. Or worrying that a small suit rupture if untreated could lead to a serious infection including but not limited to death?

 

 

Every day is a reminder to the Quarians of what they lost because of the Geth. The mistake of creating them. The mistake of trying to kill them. For 300 years they have had to deal every single day with that mistake. While the true history of their people fades over time and is forgotten. Save for one single thought. The Geth took their home world and to get it back they need to get rid of the Geth.

 

The creation of AI's were already very restricted. With or without Geth AI's are not human and it is putting humanity in the hands of another. That is why EDI (who was created with reaper tech which is why I left her out) had so many limitations put on her before being unleashed. A human/VI hybrid would still be human. A funny organic being with actual emotions and feeling just with some synthetic upgrades to over come the limitations of organic bodies.

[Dantriges]

If organics are desperate enough, they would unleash the same weapons. As I said, there were half a dozen species who bombed themselves into oblivion and the krogans used asteroid strikes.
 

-Were you forced into exile from your home planet (country)?

Yep. Or rather, we were prudent enough to run, before the nutjobs took over completely.
You are aware that distrust and living in a tent is life for other people right now who got displaced from their homeland?

BTW giving birth was a dangerous endeavour, even in the first world not such a long time ago.

So yeah, their situation sucks. If the Geth had completed their dyson swarm, the quarians would have lost any possibility of retaking Rannoch. The Geth aren´t interested in wiping them out, so what now? One of them can´t, the other one wouldn´t, unless the quarians showed up anyways. The quarians would have to find some other place.

Organic capabilities aren´t limite to what humans can do. There is a species with an organic QEC like communications ability for example and the Rachnis don´t strike me as the kind who would develop robots. Considering that they already have some kind of link between each other, some kind of organic hivemind sounds more their cup of tea.

I don´t subscribe to the idea that when AI surpasses organics, it will always wipe them out.

[gothpunkboy89]

And yet you don't mention any of the other things I mentioned that applies to Quarians and why they would inexorably go to war with the Geth. Tali actually makes a pretty passionate speech on her loyalty mission about it. Talking with her well Aunt I guess you could call her. That is what I consider her to be. Simply being in the same room as Tail's mother when giving birth was a long drawn out process of linking suit systems that still ended with her getting an infection for doing just that.

 

There really is no real world equivalent that fully equates to the Quarian plight in game. There are things that can equate to parts of it. But not the full thing.

 

Quarians would have attacked anyways. They tried to resettle other planets and were treated badly by the Council. They found an uninhabited planet. Petitioned the planet from the council. Started settling it early and the council reacted by denying them the colony and giving it to the Elcor who weren't even petitioning for the planet. Telling them to remove the settlements or they will be removed by force.

 

Organics have different limitations depending on how they evolve but they all have limitations. Rachni as your example has the ability to communicate over long distances instantly. But their hive mind requires a Queen or similar role. Without one or something pulling similar role their intelligence level drops down to that of animals. But I'm not talking about Rachni. Project Overlord was created by Cerberus. A group that is interested in advancing Humans and Humans only. Humans are smart but they can't compare to the thinking speed of a Salarian. Humans are powerful biotics but can't compare to that of the Asari. Humans are tough but still fall short compared Krogan.  Humans are tenacious but still fall short of Turians. Who will never stop fighting ever if threatened and who's entire culture is based around for the good of the group.

 

Computer grade precision control would bring out more power from their biotic implants with reduced stress and strain on their bodies. Depending on how far and how deep they hybrid goes. The ability to actually turn off pain or emotions. Allowing humans to fight longer and harder and more focused then before. And that isn't even getting into more useful stuff which is tech related.

 

With ships instead of relying on human physical reactions in ship to ship combat. Allowing humans to interface directly with this ship. Able to instantly know everything about the ship without needing to move. To be able to instantly communicate with all other crew members.  Cyber warefare would inprove dramatically. EDI even stats that she can act at speeds organic's can't react at when hacking. Giving humans even a portion of that speed would mean large leaps in their ability to wage cyber warfare on any group that challenges them.

 

The ability to integrate with a mech at all levels. The Atlas in ME3 is dangerous. But because of the pilot in it. It still has a very large weakness of the screen. Remove the pilot and give them the ability to remotely control it. That extra space could be used to increase shield, reduce weak points all while still keeping the human element of reason and intuition.  Soldiers that are injured in fights are implanted then use their implants to control an army of EDI's Using their experience to bring out the most of their murder bots. That can be lost without losing the person controlling it.

 

You don't see it because you already closed your mind to it. Thus you can't see it. 7 out of 10 times we create mechanic things to do stuff better then we can. Synthetics are not always the aggressor in the fight. That I am sure is split fairly well between which side picks a fight. The common thread how ever is that inevitably organic life forms create a synthetic life form to make their life easier. Then inevitably one side throws a punch which ignites a war when will end with one or even both sides dead.

[Dantriges]

Well, probably because your argument is based on taking away one thing and not considering other consequences of that one piece missing.

Let´s see. In general quarians value their lives and didn´t suicide charge the Geth earlier, because they value their lives. So the quarians do not like their current situation and blame the Geth for it but they aren´t completely stupid.

 

So they wouldn´t have attacked earlier, because they didn´t have Xen´s weapon. Xen´s weapon was built off Rael Zorah´s research, which was based on Tali getting geth parts. Tali got this geth parts, because she was part of a crew that killed a lot of Geth, one teenager with a shotgun can´t kill this many Geth as a team of soldiers with military grade weaponry. And well perhaps Tali would have looked for something different as pilgrimage gift, because fighting Geth alone is a good idea when you want to end your life.

 

Yeah I read that planetary entry. Besides the very stupid idea of settling a 4g planet as a 0,9 G species, itwas heartbreaking how contrived the writing had become and that was before I heard of the real gems, how the writers plunged themselves deeper and deeper into the hole with crap to circumvent the problem, that no one knows what quarians look like behind the masks. I mean the writers, not the characters.

 

If Shepard hadn´t met Tali, Shep wouldn´t have the "evidence" against Saren, ME 1 wouldn´t have happened, Saren and Souvereign executed their plan, Reapers eat them all.

 

Lots of stuff more. Are we now throwing cybernetic implants into the mix. Weren´t we talking about robots and AI? Ah I closed  my mind to it. It´s always nice to see people jumping to assumptions about someone else´s thought processes. it seems this forum is full of telepaths.

 

Then inevitably one side throws a punch which ignites a war when will end with one or even both sides dead.

 

If you base your conclusions on ME, yeah, maybeeee. Dunno, read stuff from Neuromancer to the Culture novels and it was different from book to book,

[gothpunkboy89]

You are also basing your statements on 1 thing not happening then similar events could never happen.

 

Basically saying if WW1 never existed the commercial plane wouldn't exist. Because the military application of the air plane sped up their development.

 

Quarians still made regular trips in secret into Geth space. The mission in ME2 is good example. This can and does cause geth to attack and Quarians to kill them and give them opportunists to loot Geth parts. Not nearly the amount thanks to Sovereign and his actions but still a steady if slow supply.  I also never said that they would attack the Geth sooner. Only that it was in inevitability that they would attack them.  You said there was no proof of the cycle of violence between Org and Syn. I pointed out that yes there is. It never comes to pass because of in game events. But if those events did not happen they would have in time.  The original cycle lasted for an unknown amount of time. We have no idea how many countless civilizations the AI watched before implementing plan B. But each cycle seems to have the same spark for lack of better word of the aggression and fighting that caused the AI to be formed in the first place.

 

No you specifically said Project Overload only existed because of the Geth and how some reacted to Reapers. Which again follows the logic you have been using of  if X didn't happen then Y regardless of all the other potential and possibility would never happen.  AKA if Hitler never existed then there is no way we would achieve space travel. Because his creation and use of the V-2 Rocket showed the power and potential in rockets which lead to worlds military researching them more. Thus giving us the knowledge and ability to build the first ships capable of breaking into orbit around the planet.

 

I list the potential for growth and expansion of the human limitations using the hybrid of a human mind and body with the processing power that a VI would give. To give and highlight the fact that Overload would have happened anyways but for different reasons. Using possible applications just from observing what David was able to do.

 

This isn't any other source this is the ME universe and we are discussing what happens in ME universe. What happens in another story is separate and not applicable to this one.

[Dantriges]

I am not aware of regular trips. Haestrom was labeled as very risky bit necessary. But ok, it could be that I misremember or that the label was for Haestrom only. I didn´t mention this possibility because it involved the deployment of larger amounts of ground forces and Zorahs experiments are highly illegal.

 

The sphere of superthink was nearly finished. They were on a tight schedule here, developing a weapon that attacks the software. Xen´s weapon didn´t work, after the geth had additional processing power and her work is based on Zorah´s.

 

Sry, wasn´t Overlord a project to subvert the Geth, using their religous tendencies? I find no Geth= no project to exploit them, a bit more direct than No Hitler= no space travel. Overlord wasn´t about creating a VI-human hybrid, which is something already done.

 

I put cybernetic implants into a different directory than building AIs.

 

Well the inevitable synthetic-organic conflict isn´t a law of nature. It´s a statement by the Catalyst which it doesn´t back up with data, so someone could verfiy what it said is true and not based on a runtime error.

[gothpunkboy89]

And you did it again.   You ignore the fact a human/VI hybrid would have so many more applications. And even without the events of ME1. Cerberus an organization that wants to advance and ensure the dominance of the human race would have tried it to do it anyways for any number of reasons.  Because of the advantages it would give humans on the galactic scale. 

 

You just pulled the no Hitler no space travel set up again.

 

Her experiments were only illegal because they went against the Council rule of "don't poke the Geth" they laid down to the Quarians. Taking the same set up against the Geth as they did against the Batarians after they left with Humans. As long as they don't start a fight. You don't start a fight with them.  Shepard's and even Tali to a point's reactions to the experiments are very out of place due to how they ended up pacing the game in ME2. 9 out of 10 times by the time I do Tali's loyalty mission I don't have Legion yet. Which means no reason for me to start to feel sympathy for Geth. I have no idea why they put that do X amount of missions and it auto triggers an unskippable event.  Up to and including letting the crew get kidnapped so you can't finish up all other missions without them getting killed off.

 

The super structure was just a place that all geth programs could live together rather then needing to be split up. While I understand the reason for this with Geth. Unless they had their entire fleet and army of Primes as well as near impenetrable shields for the structure. It would still be open for attack. Just conveniently all in one place.  There is a lot of missing info to claim the Geth would be unattackable if the structure was finished.

 

The entire reason the AI was created by the Leviathans is because species were being killed off thanks to the very synthetic creations they made. Now who started the fight is up for debate and I'm sure it falls on both sides of the issue.  For a species as full of themselves as the Levitahns seem to be the issue would have to be fairly sigifigant to actually get them to do anything about it. Cut to every cycle we know of there is a fight between Org and Syn. Protheans fought the Metacon Wars before Reapers invaded. This cycle the Quarians fought a war with the Geth. The Geth let them go only because they were unsure of the effects of removing an entire race from existence. So once they were no longer a threat they let them leave.  Quarians have no idea of that nor that the Geth would welcome them back if they came back with peaceful intentions. This leave the Quarians with a slow boiling hatred of the Geth. That as the events of the game show the first chance they get to kill them they take.

 

This is the proof.

[Gaaxure]

what we know from the game

Well, my point exactly, we've all played the game otherwise we wouldn't be here discussing it. I'm not ignoring/dismissing that because I "hate" Catalyst I'm doing it because It's utterly stupid and irrational thinking.

 

 

 

Leviathans said that tribute doesn't come from dead races, which likely means all of them, no matter how advanced or primitive. Yes, Leviathans used them as thralls and were still dominant over them, so of course the loss of organics that could've benefit them was the reason they created the AI in the first place. Leviathans are arrogant and surely did not see how they themselves were a part of the problem as well, I could imagine they even saw themselves as masters of the AI, that it would be obedient and just deal with the "lesser organics" that constantly created new synthetics. Which they miscalculated clearly and paid for it, but oh well, that can happen when you're full of yourself. For what the Catalyst is, it does its job. If you don't like the way it does it, that's fine, I don't like it either, but we still can see it's fulfilling its purpose.

Leviathans being arrogant doesn't excuse Super-intelligent AI from inability to put two and two together. It was given the mandate to save organics not because organic life is this precious snowflake that needs to be saved, but because Leviathans needed to live in comfort. But its first action "after countless years" of gathering data was to wipe out all Leviathans. Now ask yourself, Are leviathans living in comfort? Does tribute flow from oh-so-alive races? No. So basically either Catalyst was too stupid to understand the reason it was created, or went rouge. Either way it doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt one would give to a reasonable person. And I don't really see how Leviathans fit in as part of the problem without Catalyst being in there too. If Leviathans are part of the problem because they created an AI to solve their problems then Catalyst is part of the problem too. It can't arbitrate this matter objectively, so at the very least it should've created other AI that would've come up with the solution, or destroyed itself along with the leviathans.

 

Catalyst's reasoning also borders on autistic, I.E. It's so consumed with its own task that it fails to notice everything else around, going totally wrong, and makes hilariously stupid comments like: "Reapers aren't interested in conflict", "Would you call that war" If these statements are sincere they're beyond stupid. First of all, they don't seem hell bent on avoiding the conflict either. Second, you're ignoring(if insincere)/failing to comprehend(if autistic) the fact that despite what you're interested in, you are in conflict. A conflict which involves using weapons and military strength to achieve your your operational goals, which by definition is THE WAR. And it has literally zero likeness/parallels with chemical reaction that takes place when something is oxidated.

 

They just don't understand each other and how they view the harvest process is completely different.

And the geth do approve in so far as they're trying to build their own "Reaper", the Dyson Sphere, so they can be united, that's the goal they pursue.

I'm not bringing in morality. I brought in the fact that synthetics think about that solution differently. It's made clear from the dialogue that they consider the harvest, and storing the knowledge and essence of each race inside a Reaper as something good, something positive. In this way organics and what they are/were are preserved for eternity, which means... they're not lost to the conflict, which is what the Catalyst was tasked to do. To the Catalyst and the Reapers this is a good thing and they see it as helping us, which from our point of view is completely ridiculous, but that's how they work and think.

 

You see, that's the whole problem in your thought process, you can't approve of something if you don't fully understand it and appreciate the ramifications of it. You can't say, "Hey, I approve of splitting the atom" without being fully aware what it means and what the consequences would be(Well, you could but you'd look extremely stupid). You could fairly reasonably say, that you like the idea the way you understand it. But to approve of something you need the full understanding of it. Which both Geth and the Reapers (as well as any other synthetics/AI) are lacking. Heretics approved of Sovereign's actions, would they still if they knew it would destroy them at the end of the cycle? Even if it were so they only approved of it because Sovereign's plans coincided with their goals. Do you think their reaction would've been the same if it was trying to turn Geth into organics/something they didn't wish to become in the first place? Imagine it this way: You have a dog. Dogs love walks. One day you pick up the leash and say "Here boy, let's go for a walk!" at the moment the dog can't be any happier and obviously it approves of the action you're taking. But what the dog doesn't know is, that the walk ends at the Vet's and with his balls in a plastic bag, or god forbid, if you're one of those guys with him being "put down, because he's in too much pain". Do you think dog would still be happy about the walk?

 

You also failed to address the fact that Catalyst at the end of every cycle sends Reapers into deadly conflict, where quite a few of them die, thus forever losing all the "accumulated knowledge and the essence of the race" that was "stored" in whatever poor bastard was unfortunate enough to come across that cycle's Shepard. Seems a bit off mandate to me. Couldn't Catalyst store all that essency-knowledgy-goodness on it's own hard drive, or at least somewhere safe?

 

 

Well the problem here is that we don't know what the Catalyst exactly tried out before it considered the harvest as the best temporary solution until Synthesis is actually possible.

 

 

Doesn't matter what Catalyst tried beforehand. The fact still is that it is still ignoring the much more obvious and efficient ways of dealing with the process. Such as: creating shackles for the AIs, imprinting the "three laws of the robotics" in the core programming of every AI, harvesting synthetic life forms (i.e. the ones causing the destruction of the organic life) instead of organics, troubleshooting its own solution, trying to find flaw in its own programming. But no, from the get-go the arrogant brat is sure that there's nothing wrong with it. First of all, you know the definition of crazy right? Keep doing the same thing over and over, and expecting it to come out different? Maybe, just maybe the very thing that's causing these same results over countless cycles is the common denominator? You know, the catalyst's intricately laid out plan to coerce all organic life into the same beaten path of development. Or maybe Catalyst's "The created will always rebel against the creators" doctrine isn't set in stone. You don't see the Harbinger and gang revolting any time soon do you? It only works with organics you say. Huh... interesting isn't it... What's so special about you? Why don't You create AIs that will take care of the organics, you know the way you created the keepers to take care of the Citadel?

 

 

 

We just have to assume that it tried lots of things, maybe also some you think about, and that they just didn't work out efficiently enough.

 

See, now that's just being lazy of you. It spells "I can't come up with arguments to counter yours so I'll delegate it to supposed superior intellect, that's arbitrarily smarter than you. You can't argue with that." Well actually the whole point of this thread is to call the alleged superior intelligence of Catalyst into question. Just because it claims to be superior doesn't actually make it so. And just because it says that this is the most efficient way doesn't negate the fact that the ways I have listed above, or the ways which anyone with average intellect can come up with after half an hour of deliberation are actually more efficient methods of dealing with the problem. Failure on Catalyst's part is either in not seeing these methods(in this case it's inadequate for the task at hand and shouldn't be trusted to solve such matters), or deliberately passing them over (in this case it's a rogue AI, and needs to be shut down and have its HDD formatted right away).

[Dantriges]

And you did it again.   You ignore the fact a human/VI hybrid would have so many more applications. And even without the events of ME1. Cerberus an organization that wants to advance and ensure the dominance of the human race would have tried it to do it anyways for any number of reasons.  Because of the advantages it would give humans on the galactic scale. 

 

You just pulled the no Hitler no space travel set up again.

 

Her experiments were only illegal because they went against the Council rule of "don't poke the Geth" they laid down to the Quarians. Taking the same set up against the Geth as they did against the Batarians after they left with Humans. As long as they don't start a fight. You don't start a fight with them.  Shepard's and even Tali to a point's reactions to the experiments are very out of place due to how they ended up pacing the game in ME2. 9 out of 10 times by the time I do Tali's loyalty mission I don't have Legion yet. Which means no reason for me to start to feel sympathy for Geth. I have no idea why they put that do X amount of missions and it auto triggers an unskippable event.  Up to and including letting the crew get kidnapped so you can't finish up all other missions without them getting killed off.

 

The super structure was just a place that all geth programs could live together rather then needing to be split up. While I understand the reason for this with Geth. Unless they had their entire fleet and army of Primes as well as near impenetrable shields for the structure. It would still be open for attack. Just conveniently all in one place.  There is a lot of missing info to claim the Geth would be unattackable if the structure was finished.

 

The entire reason the AI was created by the Leviathans is because species were being killed off thanks to the very synthetic creations they made. Now who started the fight is up for debate and I'm sure it falls on both sides of the issue.  For a species as full of themselves as the Levitahns seem to be the issue would have to be fairly sigifigant to actually get them to do anything about it. Cut to every cycle we know of there is a fight between Org and Syn. Protheans fought the Metacon Wars before Reapers invaded. This cycle the Quarians fought a war with the Geth. The Geth let them go only because they were unsure of the effects of removing an entire race from existence. So once they were no longer a threat they let them leave.  Quarians have no idea of that nor that the Geth would welcome them back if they came back with peaceful intentions. This leave the Quarians with a slow boiling hatred of the Geth. That as the events of the game show the first chance they get to kill them they take.

 

This is the proof.

 

We were talking about project Overlord and its goals, not about the creation of  a human/VI hybrid. The creation of a human/VI hybrid was the method, not the goal. TIM wanted a Geth army, that´s it. As far as we know, it´s already done as a medical practice. I wasn´t talking about possible ramification of VI/human hybridization, because it wasn´t the topic until you jumped in with "you are totally ignoring this stuf.f" Yes, and? We are talking about Project Overlord and what it tried to achieve, not President Huerta and his VI.

 

These were quarian laws, at least in the game. 

 

The superstructure was a dyson swarm. A friggin dyson swarm. That´s a collection of satellites and spacestations surrounding a star. There are calculations that we would need the raw mass of the entire inner system of our solar system,to set up such a system in a distance of 1 AU around it. That´s not a conveniently easy destroyable thing all in one place, it´s a huge cloud surrounding the star on all sides. And dunno how I get this idea, but parking the bulk of the geth fleet there, because there is not much else of interest to you somewhere else, doesn´t sound too farfetched.

It´s a steep upgrade in processing power and the Geth blew the Quarians out of space when their weapon didn´t work.

 

The Leviathan build an AI to solve this issue, because tribute doesn´t flow from a dead race. And IIRC Levi said something that they cared for the thralls, which is rather prudent, because dead slaves aren´t productive.

 

I already mentioned in earlier posts, why I think the data could be wrong. Your summary of the Geth-Quarian seems accurate and boils down to trying to shut down the Geth and afterwards not talking with each other, hatred on part of the creators and then having the opportunity to do something against their creations.  There is a lot that could have happened differently.

[themikefest]

If Shepard hadn´t met Tali, Shep wouldn´t have the "evidence" against Saren, ME 1 wouldn´t have happened, Saren and Souvereign executed their plan, Reapers eat them all.

I believe ME1 could've still happened.

Just have Udina mention that there were reports of geth near Feros before losing contact. Shepard takes the Normandy to Feros. It plays out the same. Shepard learns from Shiala about the conduit that Saren is after. Shiala is brought to the council and tells them what she told Shepard. Would the council believe her? Don't know. It still would be enough to know what Saren is after. I would ask Shiala if she wanted to join the squad.

[Dantriges]

Could work, I mostly had Noveria in mind at the time of the post, where you probably don´t get far without Spectre status. 

[fraggle]

And I don't really see how Leviathans fit in as part of the problem without Catalyst being in there too. If Leviathans are part of the problem because they created an AI to solve their problems then Catalyst is part of the problem too. It can't arbitrate this matter objectively, so at the very least it should've created other AI that would've come up with the solution, or destroyed itself along with the leviathans.

 

Catalyst's reasoning also borders on autistic, I.E. It's so consumed with its own task that it fails to notice everything else around, going totally wrong, and makes hilariously stupid comments like: "Reapers aren't interested in conflict", "Would you call that war" If these statements are sincere they're beyond stupid. First of all, they don't seem hell bent on avoiding the conflict either. Second, you're ignoring(if insincere)/failing to comprehend(if autistic) the fact that despite what you're interested in, you are in conflict. A conflict which involves using weapons and military strength to achieve your your operational goals, which by definition is THE WAR. And it has literally zero likeness/parallels with chemical reaction that takes place when something is oxidated.

 

First of all, sorry it took me so long to answer.

 

How was the Catalyst part of the problem as well? The Catalyst did not turn on the Leviathans, even if that was what they called it.

And the Leviathans admit it still serves its purpose. If it would’ve just destroyed itself alongside Leviathan, who would've taken care of the problem then? No one. Which was Leviathans’ desire in the first place, they wanted someone to take care of this problem, and they chose an AI in order to do so. It is tied to this goal, tied to its programming to find a solution. And while obviously Leviathans didn't want to almost be wiped out, they still acknowledge their creation.

It was designed with a specific goal in mind, why would it want to destroy itself? That wouldn't have achieved the goal it tries to achieve.

 

Yeah, sure you can say by definition it is conflict, by our standards, but the Catalyst states they're not interested in the conflict itself, but rather the outcome, the harvesting, the preserving. So technically it is correct, Reapers are not interested in this conflict that is being created in order to achieve their goals, instead they just use any method, no matter how cruel, to reach their goal.

Leviathan backs this: There is no war, only the harvest.

 

You see, that's the whole problem in your thought process, you can't approve of something if you don't fully understand it and appreciate the ramifications of it. You can't say, "Hey, I approve of splitting the atom" without being fully aware what it means and what the consequences would be(Well, you could but you'd look extremely stupid). You could fairly reasonably say, that you like the idea the way you understand it. But to approve of something you need the full understanding of it. Which both Geth and the Reapers (as well as any other synthetics/AI) are lacking. Heretics approved of Sovereign's actions, would they still if they knew it would destroy them at the end of the cycle? Even if it were so they only approved of it because Sovereign's plans coincided with their goals. Do you think their reaction would've been the same if it was trying to turn Geth into organics/something they didn't wish to become in the first place? Imagine it this way: You have a dog. Dogs love walks. One day you pick up the leash and say "Here boy, let's go for a walk!" at the moment the dog can't be any happier and obviously it approves of the action you're taking. But what the dog doesn't know is, that the walk ends at the Vet's and with his balls in a plastic bag, or god forbid, if you're one of those guys with him being "put down, because he's in too much pain". Do you think dog would still be happy about the walk?

 

You also failed to address the fact that Catalyst at the end of every cycle sends Reapers into deadly conflict, where quite a few of them die, thus forever losing all the "accumulated knowledge and the essence of the race" that was "stored" in whatever poor bastard was unfortunate enough to come across that cycle's Shepard. Seems a bit off mandate to me. Couldn't Catalyst store all that essency-knowledgy-goodness on it's own hard drive, or at least somewhere safe?

 

So you mean because of how the outcome is, in hindsight they shouldn't have approved of Sovereign's actions before being destroyed, or the dog shouldn't have enjoyed the walk before it ended up at the vet? Well by then it's too late. They already did approve of Sovereign's actions and the dog already did enjoy the walk, it's created from being in this very moment. No one can look into the future, and if you approve of actions or enjoy them in the moment but regret them later, it doesn't mean that you simply stopped approving or being happy during these particular events in hindsight. (Am I even making sense, haha.)

 

I'm not entirely sure how your argument fits in anyway. I said that the geth do understand the Reapers in so far as the geth aspire the outcome of being united, ascended for themselves. If the Reapers were to do something to the geth against their will, I guess no, the geth would not approve, but this is a hypothetical example anyway, because it didn't show us this instance in the game. We don't have an example of Reapers turning geth into something they didn't want to become.

 

I'm not quite sure it is completely lost. I don't remember anything about this in the game now (maybe there's a dialogue or codex entry?), but the Catalyst might have very well stored each Reapers' "organic database" within its own. I think, from how it seems to work in one of the ME books, the knowledge the Reapers gather along the way, wherever they are, will be transferred to other Reapers as well and that would mean to the Catalyst, since it embodies the collective consciousness.

 

Doesn't matter what Catalyst tried beforehand. The fact still is that it is still ignoring the much more obvious and efficient ways of dealing with the process. Such as: creating shackles for the AIs, imprinting the "three laws of the robotics" in the core programming of every AI, harvesting synthetic life forms (i.e. the ones causing the destruction of the organic life) instead of organics, troubleshooting its own solution, trying to find flaw in its own programming. But no, from the get-go the arrogant brat is sure that there's nothing wrong with it. First of all, you know the definition of crazy right? Keep doing the same thing over and over, and expecting it to come out different? Maybe, just maybe the very thing that's causing these same results over countless cycles is the common denominator? You know, the catalyst's intricately laid out plan to coerce all organic life into the same beaten path of development. Or maybe Catalyst's "The created will always rebel against the creators" doctrine isn't set in stone. You don't see the Harbinger and gang revolting any time soon do you? It only works with organics you say. Huh... interesting isn't it... What's so special about you? Why don't You create AIs that will take care of the organics, you know the way you created the keepers to take care of the Citadel?

 

You know, I think there's probably no point in arguing any further about what it possibly did or didn't do, or what anyone else would do. Everyone sees different solutions as optimal. Your solution might be the best for you, maybe some others, but surely it would have some opposing parties as well, that's how it always is. People are diverse and not everyone will form the same opinion as you, so what makes your solution better than the Catalyst's ultimately? There is no real answer to that because it's not possible to reach an absolute truth with this. Some people will agree with you, yet others won't, or even say they themselves can come up with a better solution than yours.

It's always easy to judge something when you haven't actually been around during that time, when you don't even know what it was like or what and how it was tried.

Personally, I don't know what it tried, and while there might be better solutions, I wouldn't even know if they would work out, so there's that. All I care about in the end is to get rid of it and I'm glad I can do so.

 

See, now that's just being lazy of you. It spells "I can't come up with arguments to counter yours so I'll delegate it to supposed superior intellect, that's arbitrarily smarter than you. You can't argue with that." Well actually the whole point of this thread is to call the alleged superior intelligence of Catalyst into question. Just because it claims to be superior doesn't actually make it so. And just because it says that this is the most efficient way doesn't negate the fact that the ways I have listed above, or the ways which anyone with average intellect can come up with after half an hour of deliberation are actually more efficient methods of dealing with the problem. Failure on Catalyst's part is either in not seeing these methods(in this case it's inadequate for the task at hand and shouldn't be trusted to solve such matters), or deliberately passing them over (in this case it's a rogue AI, and needs to be shut down and have its HDD formatted right away).

 

Well I'm sorry, but it's just not stated in the game what exactly the Catalyst tried, only THAT it tried, how exactly does this make me lazy? Or demonstrate supposed superior intellect? You've lost me there.

 

And actually, yesterday I stumbled upon an interesting (quite longish ) post here that almost perfectly covers what I think about the Catalyst, and why I don't think of it as a mad AI. Just expressed so much better. Leaving that here, in case you're interested to see a really detailed analysis about all this.

[gothpunkboy89]

We were talking about project Overlord and its goals, not about the creation of  a human/VI hybrid. The creation of a human/VI hybrid was the method, not the goal. TIM wanted a Geth army, that´s it. As far as we know, it´s already done as a medical practice. I wasn´t talking about possible ramification of VI/human hybridization, because it wasn´t the topic until you jumped in with "you are totally ignoring this stuf.f" Yes, and? We are talking about Project Overlord and what it tried to achieve, not President Huerta and his VI.

 

These were quarian laws, at least in the game. 

 

The superstructure was a dyson swarm. A friggin dyson swarm. That´s a collection of satellites and spacestations surrounding a star. There are calculations that we would need the raw mass of the entire inner system of our solar system,to set up such a system in a distance of 1 AU around it. That´s not a conveniently easy destroyable thing all in one place, it´s a huge cloud surrounding the star on all sides. And dunno how I get this idea, but parking the bulk of the geth fleet there, because there is not much else of interest to you somewhere else, doesn´t sound too farfetched.

It´s a steep upgrade in processing power and the Geth blew the Quarians out of space when their weapon didn´t work.

 

The Leviathan build an AI to solve this issue, because tribute doesn´t flow from a dead race. And IIRC Levi said something that they cared for the thralls, which is rather prudent, because dead slaves aren´t productive.

 

I already mentioned in earlier posts, why I think the data could be wrong. Your summary of the Geth-Quarian seems accurate and boils down to trying to shut down the Geth and afterwards not talking with each other, hatred on part of the creators and then having the opportunity to do something against their creations.  There is a lot that could have happened differently.

 

President Huerta wasn't a VI hybrid. He had a VI keeping him alive after his brain completely stopped functioning. Which is nothing more then a higher tech version of life support. Keeping the body alive.  Overloard showed much more potential seeing as a single human/hybrid was able to take over an entire Cerberus base including any and all mechs, cameras and drones. But also able to take over and control multiple Geth units at the same time.

 

You seem to want to ignore and I mean really ignore the fact that fully functioning human VI hybrid would have a lot of advantage over standard humans. Giving them near AI level abilities in terms of hacking and reaction speed. This alone would have been enough validation for TIM to start Project Overlord. Even if they renamed it Project Smarty Pants or really any other name.  It would still boil down to the same thing.  And would have the side effect of TIM seeing a single human mind able to manipulate and control an army of mechs at once. With the potential to beam their intelligence off world to wreck havoc on other species computers.

 

You don't seem to realize how much of human inventions exist because they were trying for something else and then inadvertently created something just as useful by accident.  Viagra is a great funny example. Originally created for the intent for heart pills they found it increased the ability for older men to maintain their gentlemen at attention. Boom now the little blue pill is used by many who can't quite stand at attention anymore.

 

The Quarian Law was against fully functioning Geth units being activated while within the Fleet. The Council had an agreement with not provoking the Geth. Which would be required to gain access to Geth parts. This is under they hypothetical set up of the Reapers either not existing or still 300 or so years away from invasion so no interaction on their part by Sovereign yet.

 

The Quarians destroyed the partially constructed dyson swarm. Hence the Geth panicked. Hence the alliance with Reapers. 

 

The data is sound as far as the information we have is. We have data on exactly 3 cycles. Leviathan, Prothean and Current in game. During all 3 there is clear information of Organic Vs Synthetic conflict. During Leviathan there are several cases of it. Enough to push the Leviathans to create an AI to try and solve the issue. Protheans right off the bat faced down synthetic getting them to enslave the rest of the organic population to fight them under their banner. And in this cycle Quarians and the Geth. And the only reason the Geth issue didn't evovle more is because Geth are not true AI's. Networked intellegence and true AI are vastly different. But either way the Quarians were forced off their home world. Forced to wonder the stars in ships all while thinking and planning ways to retake their home world from the Geth. Which would end with one or the other species being killed off. Either though direct combat or he Geth being lobotomized so to speak and reverted into basic programs again.

[Dantriges]

President Huerta is more of a start to VI/human interfaces leading to VI/human hybrids. Actualy I have no clue why they made this procedure just to move his body around but well.

 

TIM was a control freak, who wanted expendable troops: Creepers, Rachnis, Husks and finally got them via implants.

 

I am not ignoring the possible advantages of VI/human hybrids, we simply don´t know. The wetware, like your eyes, still has to gather the information, transport it to your brain via our optical nerve, then it gets processed which could be sped up, then commands go to your muscles via nerves again. Unless we talk about rewiring this whole stuff, too, but then we are in cyborg territory, not a pure VI/human setup. Anyways, considering that full mechanical enemies weren´t curbstomping us, it seems that whatever capabilities a processor gives you, doesn´t really translate in enhanced combat performance. It is more likely that it translates in improving purely intellectual pursuits but it´s a good question, how much the improvement is compared to having your VI not in your brain, but in a server where you can upgrade the hardware without brain surgery and you have more space for the hardware.

Also it´s a good question if these increased hacking possibilities aren´t just making you more vulnerable. As far as we know, the VI/AI with the better hardware wins. The human mind might compensate for that with its erratic behaviour as EDI pointed out, but actually we don´t know. it´s not unlikely that the 22nd century VI equivalent of Tianhe-2 will still stomp you with your VI in your brain, which would/could be the equivalent of a 22nd century VI "smartphone" in processing power.

 

Viagra eh? Shall we now talk about Teflon, rockets, gunpowder?

 

I was talking about the quarian law. That´s nice that the council had such a policy, I just assumed that trying to raid heavily guarded geth space with the goal of capturing network linked  geth isn´t such a bright idea and would incur heavy losses which you have to hide from the fleet captains and the admiralty board members who don´t agree with you.

 

 

The data is sound as far as the information we have is.

 

Well , we don´t have much information. We have the Leviathans, which were the descendants of the people who were part of the Leviathan empire. We don´t know if their ancestors were involved in the decision making or the equivalent of office workers or fastfood empoyees, something on the low end ofthe pecking order. I can tell you what I think about my government but I don´t have inside info. We don´t know if they were direct descendants or if they mean it like an italian who claims "my ancestors were ruling the roman empire." So we don´t know if they know the truth or were telling the truth.

 

Ok the Catalyst was there and he came to the conclusion there´s a problem We don´t know how widespread this problem was, how often it occured, how dangerous it was, if the fact that the galaxy was ruled by mindcontrollers had any influence  and so on. We know that it happened several times and that it was a problem the thralls had.

We actually don´t know if the AI is still of "sound" reasoning or if it was buggy from the start, had a runtime error, hardware blocks that impaired its decision making processes or if something broke down in the long years until now. For all we know it could be that it slaughtered everyone because it wanted to, then had a database corruption and now thinks that "yeah I doing something productive." Unlikely but we have nothing.

 

The later cycles are also sketchy. We know the AI meddled but not to what extent. The statement that they tried to find the holy grail of synthesis indicates that it wasn´t just "plop down mass relays, some other stuff, retreat and take a nap until the time has come." So we don´t know if the data from later cycles is sound or if the Catalyst jumped the stage "see if the synthetics will kill organics" or orchestrated it to get to the stuff it wanted to do faster.

 

So it totally could be that the data is correct and it could totally be that it´s just a deranged AI that made it so. We don´t know and we only have the Catalyst´s statement, which it doesn´t back up with anything.