107 réponses à ce sujet

[SweetTeaholic]

@Arvaarad: Annnd what about a Leliana that wasn't killed by the Warden?

 

Also the only way Bull gets a happy ending is if he's declared Tal Vashoth. If he still is with the Qun, he's in an environment that's unhealthy and he would likely be called back to Serahon/Pal Vollen anyways if they see that he's becoming too close to the Chargers. DotQ was set up to be a disaster to begin with and was about testing Bull's loyalties. If you didn't do his personal mission; he's still tied with the Qun and said that after the main game was beaten that he was going to return home. There's a good chance he may have been reeducated again during that time even if the Chargers are alive and well and all we know they just became tools to him after that trip. (or still doing his job but still cares about his men, but we do know what the Re Educators are capable of so I wouldn't discount the possibly).

 

Even if you don't recruit him, the Ben Hassrath still have a leash on him and if they feel as the Bas he made a family out of are becoming more important than the Qun; they'll take them out of the picture.

[congokong]

The notion that Demands of the Qun's Chargers-or-dreadnought ultimatum was to test Iron Bull's loyalties is pure speculation, and unlikely to have the foresight necessary to work. I also hope the Ben-Hassrath aren't dumb enough to gamble a hundred qunari lives and a dreadnought just to test Hissrad.

[Sable Rhapsody]

I also hope the Ben-Hassrath aren't dumb enough to gamble a hundred qunari lives and a dreadnought just to test Hissrad.

 

Hissrad's a badass, but the dreadnoughts are the backbone of qunari naval superiority.  I agree: it would be utterly daft to risk a ship like that, not to mention all the crew aboard, for ONE GUY.  No matter how well-placed he is, he's still just one piece of the qunari whole.  I think the mission was a genuine attempt to pool resources against the Venatori, even though it went south.

 

From a meta-level, though, it was pretty obvious where that mission would lead.  From the moment Iron Bull was announced as a character, I figured the Qun would form an essential part of his character conflict, and that stuff always gets spun out in the companion quests.

[SweetTeaholic]

Hissrad's a badass, but the dreadnoughts are the backbone of qunari naval superiority.  I agree: it would be utterly daft to risk a ship like that, not to mention all the crew aboard, for ONE GUY.  No matter how well-placed he is, he's still just one piece of the qunari whole.  I think the mission was a genuine attempt to pool resources against the Venatori, even though it went south.

 

From a meta-level, though, it was pretty obvious where that mission would lead.  From the moment Iron Bull was announced as a character, I figured the Qun would form an essential part of his character conflict, and that stuff always gets spun out in the companion quests.

 

The thing is, think of what Gatt says: "The Qunari Don't Barrigan, they don't know how." And lets not forget what Sten said in Orgins about the Qunari don't do alliances. If they did; they wouldn't break one via Trespasser.

 

And the reason why I say it was a test for Bull is because the mission was never about the Qunari but about. Is he the Iron Bull or Hissrad? Also the fact that the Qunari TELL him to bring the Chargers. The Inquisition have there own scouts that could inflate the Ventori. No need for an army, but no need for Bull's men neither. Yes, they obviously want to stop Tevinter; but if they can solve the issue of Bull as well it could help.

 

Also it's possible that there they used a Skeleton crew suppose to a real dreadnought crew.

 

Really, when it comes down to it; only Weekes would likely know what fully went down because he's the one in charge of Bull's character. 

 

But in a meta context: It was always just about Bull. Hench why it's called a PERSONAL Quest.

[sniper_arrow]

Hissrad's a badass, but the dreadnoughts are the backbone of qunari naval superiority.  I agree: it would be utterly daft to risk a ship like that, not to mention all the crew aboard, for ONE GUY.  No matter how well-placed he is, he's still just one piece of the qunari whole.  I think the mission was a genuine attempt to pool resources against the Venatori, even though it went south.

 

True, they hate wasting resources.

[Arvaarad]

@Arvaarad: Annnd what about a Leliana that wasn't killed by the Warden?

Ah, sorry for my unclear wording! I only brought up the "executed, not Divine" case because that's the only case where we find out she had a job to do. We don't find that out even in the "executed, Divine" ending, even though that has an identical pre-Inquisition past.

Surviving!Leliana presumably had the same role to play. Otherwise, why would lyrium's song resurrect executed!Leliana specifically, instead of sending someone else?

Whatever power executed!Leliana works for, surviving!Leliana must have served their goals too.

[Dabrikishaw]

I think all the Iron Bull really wants is to put his fears about becoming crazy to rest, which both decisions accomplish.

[Sable Rhapsody]

The thing is, think of what Gatt says: "The Qunari Don't Barrigan, they don't know how." And lets not forget what Sten said in Orgins about the Qunari don't do alliances. If they did; they wouldn't break one via Trespasser.

 

The qunari in Trespasser have more-or-less the same official response about Dragon's Breath whether quizzy saved the dreadnought or not.  They disavow any knowledge of the Viddasala and her dealings, and claim she's a rogue agent.  Which is clearly untrue.  Ultimately, what matters to the qunari isn't alliance or bargaining or trade.  What matters is the Qun.

 

The Arishok and Hawke can help each other in DA2, up until he tries to sack the city.  If the dreadnought is saved, the Ben-Hassrath share intelligence with the Inquisition all the way up to the Exalted Council.  The qunari are perfectly happy to work for mutual benefit with a basalit-an....up to a point.  When push comes to shove, though, the Qun always comes first, and IMO they don't seem to view that as a breach of any agreement.  Bull even says as much when he turns on the Inquisitor: "Nothing personal, bas."

[SwobyJ]

Leliana isn't incompetent. She's working for a more powerful employer.

The visions, the entire DLC focused on her, the fact that the titans (or whoever is ultimately behind lyrium's song) think she's important enough to raise from the dead. She's almost certainly a double agent. Possibly an unknowing one, but a double agent nonetheless.

If killed-in-Origins-Leliana had been raised by a faith spirit, I'd say it was just luck she came back. But lyrium's song raised her, and gave her a job to do.

What could that job be, but influencing the inquisition? And what better way to influence an organization than by planting its spymaster, the person who vets everyone else? Who's in charge of screening her? Who checks whether she's intentionally skipping over people? No one.

She says "I must have missed X, Y, and Z shifty-looking people", and we believe her. We look at this Orlesian bard who grew up soaked in the Game, and we totally buy it.

Yes, you must have made a mistake, silly you!

Oh, another mistake, how clumsy!

Our entire organization is riddled with Ben-Hassrath and agents of Fen'Harel? Pish-tosh, these things happen from time to time.

Ah, I see you turned into a flock of birds and flew away, saying your work here is done? My, my, how quirky and adorable and completely unsuspicious!

 

You're crazy like how I'm crazy about Liara.

[congokong]

The qunari in Trespasser have more-or-less the same official response about Dragon's Breath whether quizzy saved the dreadnought or not.  They disavow any knowledge of the Viddasala and her dealings, and claim she's a rogue agent.  Which is clearly untrue.  Ultimately, what matters to the qunari isn't alliance or bargaining or trade.  What matters is the Qun.

What's interesting about their denial is that it seems to continue even after Trespasser. Remember the epilogue? If I recall correctly, the qunari actually ask for assistance against Tevinter from the Chantry/Inquisition. This at least happens if you made an alliance with them and kept the Inquisition going.

 

So basically they'll continue lying to promote their interests until you just won't fall for it anymore. Since, like typical religious fanatics, they're certain they're in the right by following the qun. Thus they expect honesty, honor, etc. from "bas" (ex: as the arishok did in DA2), but don't feel obligated to return the favor to "lesser beings."

[Sable Rhapsody]

Thus they expect honesty, honor, etc. from "bas" (ex: as the arishok did in DA2), but don't feel obligated to return the favor to "lesser beings."

 

IMO they return the favor, but not in the way that most Thedosians think of it.  The Arishok, for example, continues to treat Hawke with respect and courtesy as basilit-an, even when sacking Kirkwall.  The single duel is his way of honoring Hawke, while following what he considers the demands of the Qun.  Sten in DA:O remains qunari, yet speaks of the Warden with great respect once they become friends.

[congokong]

IMO they return the favor, but not in the way that most Thedosians think of it.  The Arishok, for example, continues to treat Hawke with respect and courtesy as basilit-an, even when sacking Kirkwall.  The single duel is his way of honoring Hawke, while following what he considers the demands of the Qun.  Sten in DA:O remains qunari, yet speaks of the Warden with great respect once they become friends.

1. I already said there were some "perks" for being basalit-an, yet that doesn't equate to what the qunari expect in return. They'll still screw you over if you're basalit-an, or "worthy of following," but are a little more respectful about it. Ex: Killing you with the "ceremonial cut" if you give back Ketojan in DA2.

 

2. I'm not referring exclusively to basalit-an. Ex: They dislike political deceit from others, yet use it as well to serve their interests. In their mind it's ok because, "The qun is right; everything else is wrong. Thus, anything that works towards the spread of the qun is justified. Everyone else who uses such tactics is wrong because it's not for the benefit of the qun."

 

It's incredibly narrow-minded because it doesn't leave room for the possibility that the qun is wrong. It's the same "The (name religion here) is right because it says so" circular reasoning.

[SweetTeaholic]

-snip-

[Arvaarad]

IMO they return the favor, but not in the way that most Thedosians think of it.

Pretty much. On top of what you mentioned, it's important to remember that they think the non-Qunari way of life causes suffering.

When they look at bas, it's like if you or I look at a friend who's a drug addict or in a toxic relationship. They're aware of the fact that bas don't want their help. In their minds, bas are so misguided that they don't recognize help when they see it. So, then, it's up to the Qunari to give them some tough love.

This happens all the time with real-world cults and even extreme political movements. It's why it can often be so hard to debate people in these kinds of communities. They truly and deeply believe they're acting out of compassion, so they just get confused and defensive when people accuse them of "spreading hate" or "violence". According to their worldview, they're saving people from their own destructive tendencies.

[paramitch]

Great question, OP. What I think is interesting about DotQ is that the situation is -- to me -- inevitable. Everyone sees this but Bull. Bull is indoctrinated and spouts all the right rhetoric while meanwhile being this incredibly smart, charming, funny, loyal guy.

 

But what I love about the writing for Bull as a character (I think he's fantastic and subtle) is that there's a genuine element of coldness and unsettling analysis to Bull, and it's all the aspect of him that is purest Ben Hassrath, the pure Qun loyalist.

 

My first Lavellan romanced Bull (and I loved every second of that storyline) but even then, every once in awhile, he'd say something that made me do a double-take. Always very casual, these little utterances that showed that he might be the greatest guy ever, but he was a Nazi (I mean in terms of the DAI political landscape) and very willing to fall right in line with most of this utterly crushing, dehumanizing, cultlike belief system without even examining it. (For me the most chilling was when he so blithely dismissed his own reeducation, when he turned himself in to be tortured and reconditioned so that he could go on believing. I mean, the mind reels... it's horrific to me.)

 

And mind you -- I think Bull is ordinarily really brilliant and perceptive (he slyly implies, for instance, that he is aware at least to some degree of the masquerades of both

Spoiler

Blackwall and Solas

). But of course he sees everything about everyone else except himself. It's classic.

 

That's why I love Solas's clashes with Bull. Because as their banter/arguments evolve, we see Bull becoming more uneasy. Solas has made him ask questions of himself that he cannot answer easily. Bull begins to admit that he can't fully reconcile all his beliefs. He begins the uneasy process of knowing himself. Even as DotQ is presented, he already knows he's not the same Hissrad; he's in real trouble here. If they call him out, he knows it's not all black and white to him anymore.

 

For me, there is no answer but saving the Chargers -- mainly because (1) I think it's what Bull desperately wants, and (2) because I feel Bull has made that decision already, he just can't voice it. The moment he asks Quizzie to make the decision, to me, Bull has left the Qun. Even if the Dreadnought is saved, to me the choice is the point of no return. (Note: I realize that some of this stuff is necessary due to the game mechanics, etc., but to me they can be seamlessly integrated into roleplay and choices, so I prefer it that way. So, I do find real meaning that we as IQ are asked to decide for him.)

 

So if the IQ saves the Dreadnought, Bull has lost everything, even the Qun. He knows he is lying to himself and he's just watched his loved ones die anyway. After Cory, I would assume Bull goes home for reeducation and brainwashing and it is a relief to be emptied of any future choices. He's the walking dead.

 

I said it in Bull's thread recently, but I'll say it again -- the Chargers are who save Bull. They make him the best version of who he is. By saving the Chargers, the Inquisitor also saves Bull (I always thought figuratively until Trespasser, agghgh). And I really love that. And I love the way the other relationships evolve around Bull after it as well. The Inquisition rallies quietly for him. Solas is really warm and lovely to him in a new way ("You have the Inquisitor. And you have me."), as is Varric.

 

The fact is that Bull loves his freedom. He loves to drink, eat, to break beds. All violations of the Qun and the fact he enjoys it scares him! But in the end, he gladly would risk his becoming Tal Vashoth for his men. And by the time Trespasser roles around and he's Tal Vashoth; he's far more happy that he ever was being he left 'the liar' behind and became more honest with himself.

 

The Chargers are his family and killing them also kills The Iron Bull.

Perfectly said. The irony is that Bull discovers that he didn't have the strength of his own convictions (which we already knew but which he didn't). He just doesn't see it right away; he thinks he's damned because he's been so utterly conditioned to believe so.

 

If the Inquisitor tells him to save the dreadnaught, he says that he'll never lead a band of mercenaries again. He is broken. Contrast that with what happens if the Inquisitor tells him to save the Chargers. The realization that he's Tal-Vashoth sickens him... until the Inquisitor reminds him that he hasn't changed at all. He's still the same Bull he always was. Deep down, the part of Iron Bull that is Iron Bull can't really exist without the Chargers.

Yeah, I think what we see if he stays Qun-loyal is crushing grief and a quiet brokenness. He will never again get too close, period. By contrast, I don't think after saving the Chargers he's grieving so much as terrified. He's been taught that he will now go mad and savage -- his worst fears. The fear is worse for him at first because it's so alien. But I think he manages to assimilate it fairly easily; certainly more easily than the loss of his family/friends.

 

I just... I can't even. I've read the accounts of what Qun-loyal Bull does (even if romanced) in "Trespasser" and I couldn't even bear to watch it on YouTube. It's incredibly upsetting, but I also think it's brilliant; it's exactly the worst-case scenario everyone around Bull always feared, and the fact that he's so casual about it is even worse. There's just nobody in there anymore.

 

 

He absolutely wants you to save Krem. The Chargers he cares about, but Bull has lost men before, he understands that's part of war and accepts that. Krem on the other hand is his best friend, he loves Krem, he doesn't want to lose him. The other time his best friend died he went into a rage he attacked a Tal-Vashoth stronghold and killed everyone inside and nearly died because of it.

 

This is a great point. Right after the Chargers are saved, the look on Bull's face when Krem comes up and they practice the Shield Bash one more time! It kills me (the move Krem never seems to get right) and yes, it's a videogame, but the palpable love we see and hear in Bull when he sends Krem off (yelling of course when Krem reveals to the IQ they're opening up the special mead in celebration on Bull's orders) tells me that the right decision was made. Bull is sad and scared... but so happy. (Besides, I love Krem almost as much as Bull -- there's something shining and pure about Krem. Even the idea of that tavern chair being empty makes me want to cry. I'm a wimp.)

 

He's been abroad for years. The Qun is a distant reality to him now. So what do they do?

They ask him to do what he was meant to do one day: help establish an alliance between the Inquisition and the Qunari. 

 

They know the cost might be his new lifestyle as the Iron Bull, but they don't care. This is a demand of the Qun. If Bull fails, he's declared Tal-Vashoth. And to make sure he obeys, they send the elven Qunari to spy on him and report what was Bull's decision: to save the alliance and fulfill the demand or betray the one and only true mission he had ever since he was ordered to join the Inquisition and be branded a traitor.

 

While I would agree with other posters that I don't think the Qunari would necessarily gamble a whole dreadnought on testing Bull, I do think their choice of Bull to facilitate the deal is their way of exposing the steel in the velvet glove to him, reminding him who he is and what is expected. I really think they couldn't conceive that Bull would go Tal-Vashoth in earnest -- the Qunari are not the most imaginative folks that way. I think they really couldn't imagine that they had actually lost Bull... until it happened.

 

Or perhaps Bull wants you to save the Chargers so that its not him making the decision to abandon the Qun and he can pretend he didn't choose.

 

I think this could be argued, although to me Bull is too perceptive to do that. I think he'd be happier doing so but I don't see Bull as being able to. Instead, he's tormented at first because he knows that the moment he asked the IQ to do it, he was toast and he revealed that he wasn't just a liar to the world; he had been lying to himself most of all.

 

Alternatively one could argue that choosing the Dreadnaught is the more questionable of the two since the reason the mission falls apart in the first place is because the Ben-Hassrath are too arrogant and underestimate the Venatori. When asked Gatt admits a Venatori surprise attack from the shoreline would devastate the Dreadnaught which bares the question if the Ben-Hassrath know that a Venatori raid from the shore has at the least a plausible likelihood of destroying their Dreadnaught why haven't they taken precautions against it? Why doesn't their plan include a solution or countermasure against something like that? Especially when placing simple ambushes to protect locations of strategic importance is a pretty basic, and, I daresay pretty expected tactic for just about anybody.

 

Although The Chargers aren't technically Inquisition troops they're still under your employ, loyal to you and as such your forces. 

Another great point. I feel similarly; for me, in RP mode (even with zero meta knowledge first playthrough) the choice wasn't much of one anyway even when viewed coldly for a number of reasons: 

• The IQ doesn't trust the Qunari to maintain their end
• She already feared inviting them in for an 'alliance' was also inviting in a far greater future danger (something Bull implies as well)
• Even when weighed against a single dreadnought, the Chargers are more important to the Inquisition strategically as what they are already proven to be -- a pretty accomplished Special Forces unit (versus a nebulous alliance with an untrustworthy ally)
• They're her soldiers and demand her loyalty
• And emotionally -- for me -- It's people she loves. Bull. The Chargers. This isn't clean, like sending soldiers to die for good cause, like sending Hawke to die against a demon. It would be death for what she knows is a terrible cause, deep down.

 

Do for Bull what he did for his men and give him a place in the Inquisition where he doesn't have to be afraid of who he is or who he might become if he is allowed to think for himself.

 

I loved this -- beautifully put.

(Apologies for my incredibly long post. Great discussions that made me think a lot about one of my favorite characters in fiction.)

[Sable Rhapsody]

(Apologies for my incredibly long post. Great discussions that made me think a lot about one of my favorite characters in fiction.)

 

No, by all means, post away.  Bull is an incredible character, and one that I didn't full appreciate until Trespasser. 

 

But for me, like you, the choice was pretty obvious for both PCs even before Trespasser hit, and I saw the full impact of that choice on his character arc.  My Lavellan is too much of a softie to let the Chargers die.  And my Adaar...let's just say that only Solas hated the Qun more than he did  He only went along to see what the qunari were up to, and at the first sign of trouble, he was ready to bail on that dreadnought.

[congokong]

Pretty much. On top of what you mentioned, it's important to remember that they think the non-Qunari way of life causes suffering.

When they look at bas, it's like if you or I look at a friend who's a drug addict or in a toxic relationship. They're aware of the fact that bas don't want their help. In their minds, bas are so misguided that they don't recognize help when they see it. So, then, it's up to the Qunari to give them some tough love.

This happens all the time with real-world cults and even extreme political movements. It's why it can often be so hard to debate people in these kinds of communities. They truly and deeply believe they're acting out of compassion, so they just get confused and defensive when people accuse them of "spreading hate" or "violence". According to their worldview, they're saving people from their own destructive tendencies.

Excellent metaphorical description of the qunari. It emphasizes their absolute lack of humility. That's one of the things I love about Cassandra; her ability to consider being wrong. It's something that's also sadly lacking when conversing with people over the internet.

[KaiserShep]

Actually, if Hawke is a Basalit-an by that point the Arishok does ask Hawke what they would do in his position. 

 

Hawke is not [possibly] declared Basalit-an until the final confrontation in the Viscount's Keep. I'm pretty sure the answer to the Arishok's question factors into whether or not that even happens. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Deep down he wants you to make the decision for him.

Sheep are meant to be led...well cows but you know what I mean.

[Qun00]

He's probably a bit... embarrassed isn't the right word, but something like that. He knows the inquisitor is not Qunari, and probably takes a dim view of the culture. With the possible exception of a Dalish inquisitor, their upbringing could not have been as culturally isolated as his. If he shares his pain with the inquisitor, they're unlikely to understand what he's going through.

When someone grows up in an insular community, leaving is almost unfathomably hard. All your childhood friends are there. Your entire support system is tied into the people from that community. Fundamental aspects of your worldview are based on that community's beliefs. Outsiders have been depicted, since you were tiny, as bad or misguided, and even when they do good things, it's minimized or rationalized away.

Leaving requires severing all those ties and forming new ties in a world you've been taught to believe is hostile and wrong. If that wasn't enough, you're also busy rebuilding your life philosophy from the ground up. It feels like your brain is liquefying and re-forming, but you have to keep living your life like nothing crazy or earth-shattering is happening inside your head.

Often you'll meet people who are close to leaving a community like that, and they'll be completely reasonable. They'll understand/agree with all the arguments against their community's actions or beliefs. Just like Bull acknowledges that a Qunari invasion would be bad. But they haven't left yet, because it requires immense motivation to do so.

By the time someone does leave, they're 1000% convinced that they're making the right choice, rationally. That just makes the crushing sadness more confusing, and even harder to explain to people who haven't had that experience.

Compared to that, "pain over friends' deaths" is something he knows the inquisitor will understand.

You've described it beautifully. That said, I'd say that Bull experienced this to a lesser extent.

He isn't as much of a die hard Qunari as Sten. He isn't afraid of acknowledging the Qun's flaws.

Sheep are meant to be led...well cows but you know what I mean.

Dragons. Never forget.

[Arvaarad]

You've described it beautifully. That said, I'd say that Bull experienced this to a lesser extent.

He isn't as much of a die hard Qunari as Sten. He isn't afraid of acknowledging the Qun's flaws.

I think where Sten and Bull differ is that Bull has a longer-running circle of friends outside the Qun. Without a net to catch you when you leave, there's no reason to consider leaving.

Before meeting the player, Bull already has a strong substitute support network in place, the Chargers. Sten has no one.

If Sten left, he'd be giving up his community in return for... nothing. Just isolation, and a hearty dose of racism from the rest of Thedas. So why even contemplate leaving the Qun? Just keep convincing yourself it's true, make the best of it.

In contrast, Bull has had the luxury to consider alternate viewpoints. Because, if considering those alternate viewpoints leads him to reject the Qun, he has a place to land when he leaves. Sten can only begin to think about these viewpoints after the Warden becomes kadan to him. And he still doesn't have a full circle of friends yet, it's mostly just the HoF.

[congokong]

I think where Sten and Bull differ is that Bull has a longer-running circle of friends outside the Qun. Without a net to catch you when you leave, there's no reason to consider leaving.

Before meeting the player, Bull already has a strong substitute support network in place, the Chargers. Sten has no one.

If Sten left, he'd be giving up his community in return for... nothing. Just isolation, and a hearty dose of racism from the rest of Thedas. So why even contemplate leaving the Qun? Just keep convincing yourself it's true, make the best of it.

In contrast, Bull has had the luxury to consider alternate viewpoints. Because, if considering those alternate viewpoints leads him to reject the Qun, he has a place to land when he leaves. Sten can only begin to think about these viewpoints after the Warden becomes kadan to him. And he still doesn't have a full circle of friends yet, it's mostly just the HoF.

Sten has the typical qunari arrogant certainty that you see in all qunari up until meeting Tallis, Gatt, and the Iron Bull. Iron Bull isn't devout (I'm pretty sure even saying the qun is not perfect is heretical), and possibly never was, but he is loyal. He worked in Seheron until burning out to protect its people; not because the qun is flawless in his mind. He's also not the type who'd strangle eight people including children over a lost friggin sword; even without a support network outside the qun IMO.

[SwobyJ]

I think where Sten and Bull differ is that Bull has a longer-running circle of friends outside the Qun. Without a net to catch you when you leave, there's no reason to consider leaving.

Before meeting the player, Bull already has a strong substitute support network in place, the Chargers. Sten has no one.

If Sten left, he'd be giving up his community in return for... nothing. Just isolation, and a hearty dose of racism from the rest of Thedas. So why even contemplate leaving the Qun? Just keep convincing yourself it's true, make the best of it.

In contrast, Bull has had the luxury to consider alternate viewpoints. Because, if considering those alternate viewpoints leads him to reject the Qun, he has a place to land when he leaves. Sten can only begin to think about these viewpoints after the Warden becomes kadan to him. And he still doesn't have a full circle of friends yet, it's mostly just the HoF.

 

This is why many embrace liberalism (in whatever form they like). Free exchange of ideas leads to freer relationships leads to many feeling a freedom to head in hopefully healthier directions since they know they have various types of 'safety nets' if they do so and run into trouble.

[SwobyJ]

Sten has the typical qunari arrogant certainty that you see in all qunari up until meeting Tallis, Gatt, and the Iron Bull. Iron Bull isn't devout (I'm pretty sure even saying the qun is not perfect is heretical), and possibly never was, but he is loyal. He worked in Seheron until burning out to protect its people; not because the qun is flawless in his mind. He's also not the type who'd strangle eight people including children over a lost friggin sword; even without a support network outside the qun IMO.

 

He wouldn't kill them over his sword but he'd have very likely slaughtered a family that he's told are enemy spies that must be neutralized.

 

And he's probably hate himself and anguish over the repressed emotions and considerations about it but he'd probably do it.

 

Pre-Chargers I mean.

 

So yeah. Loyal. But yeah, a bigger heart. Muh Bull.

 

Sten is more of a grunt, by definition and otherwise, and he is relatively less about loyalty and relatively more about just not knowing anything else and feeling panic/fear at even the possibility of dealing with those things. Its Bull that WANTS to deal with other things than Qun, yet that's problematic in his role.

 

IB is more of a political story. And good - this is a thematic change throughout DAI compared to say DAO. I liked this difference in DAI though I know others didn't and would have preferred something more openly 'epic' and combat centered.

[Arvaarad]

Sten has the typical qunari arrogant certainty that you see in all qunari up until meeting Tallis, Gatt, and the Iron Bull.

To be fair to Sten, he's known nothing else. If people you trust have presented stuff as facts, you're not going to right away believe some strangers who say "those facts are wrong". Especially if those strangers have been described as primitive or dumb.

Imagine if someone came up to you and said "by the way, the world is ending on date xyz because of signs p, q, and r." Personally, I'd dismiss that statement out of hand, because I live in a culture that views such claims as delusional. I'd consider that dismissal to be more "efficient" than "arrogant" (if I investigate every wild claim, I'd never have time to do anything else), but perhaps that's subjective.

It takes time and exposure before someone can consider whether wildly different perspectives might be true. Sten hasn't had that time.