107 réponses à ce sujet

[congokong]

To be fair to Sten, he's known nothing else. If people you trust have presented stuff as facts, you're not going to right away believe some strangers who say "those facts are wrong". Especially if those strangers have been described as primitive or dumb.

Imagine if someone came up to you and said "by the way, the world is ending on date xyz because of signs p, q, and r." Personally, I'd dismiss that statement out of hand, because I live in a culture that views such claims as delusional. I'd consider that dismissal to be more "efficient" than "arrogant" (if I investigate every wild claim, I'd never have time to do anything else), but perhaps that's subjective.

It takes time and exposure before someone can consider whether wildly different perspectives might be true. Sten hasn't had that time.

Many, including me, have questioned beliefs, customs, laws, culture, views on morality, etc. often ingrained since childhood despite discouragement from doing so. There are always thinkers and there are always conforming sheep. You're arguing Sten is susceptible to propaganda; thus a sheep. Fair enough. Many people are, but there have always been skeptics who question. It often doesn't end well for them, yes, which gives another reason to conform outside of blind obedience: fear of harm.

[paramitch]

I think the difference is self-awareness.

 

I adored Sten -- I mean, he is my first DA love. I adored him. My warden fell flat for him. She settled for (granted: adorable) Alistair only after no options for Sten.

 

Ultimately, I ended with Sten as her most trusted ally and friend. The person she never dared to speak her feelings to because they both knew what they were. And knew what they meant when he called her "Kadan." The love between them simply stayed platonic although I would have jumped Sten like an Olympian hurdler if given a 1% chance. (I know. Sorry for the overshare.)

 

(Side note: OMG Hildreth's voice performance. I can't even. Seriously. Years later. Just take my ovaries now.)

 

I think this is a situation combining two limitations:

 

DAO character limitations: 

• Sten is not romanceable. He is simply who he is. (So my DAO warden's adoration of him -- MUTUAL -- was quietly tragic. She loved him. More than Alistair or Zev. But she let him go. He could only be a friend hoping they didn't meet on the battle field; he was too damaged). But she'll always love him. As do I.

• DAI Character limitations/changes: Iron Bull appears to be much more malleable. However charming and smart he may seem, he isn't, but he's far more adept at appearing so.

Now I need a blankie to hug. Qunari are so sad to me. Sniffle.

 

Meanwhile, I adore them both.

[congokong]

I think the difference is self-awareness.

 

I adored Sten -- I mean, he is my first DA love. I adored him. My warden fell flat for him. She settled for (granted: adorable) Alistair only after no options for Sten.

 

Ultimately, I ended with Sten as her most trusted ally and friend. The person she never dared to speak her feelings to because they both knew what they were. And knew what they meant when he called her "Kadan." The love between them simply stayed platonic although I would have jumped Sten like an Olympian hurdler if given a 1% chance. (I know. Sorry for the overshare.)

 

(Side note: OMG Hildreth's voice performance. I can't even. Seriously. Years later. Just take my ovaries now.)

 

I think this is a situation combining two limitations:

 

DAO character limitations: 

• Sten is not romanceable. He is simply who he is. (So my DAO warden's adoration of him -- MUTUAL -- was quietly tragic. She loved him. More than Alistair or Zev. But she let him go. He could only be a friend hoping they didn't meet on the battle field; he was too damaged). But she'll always love him. As do I.

• DAI Character limitations/changes: Iron Bull appears to be much more malleable. However charming and smart he may seem, he isn't, but he's far more adept at appearing so.

Now I need a blankie to hug. Qunari are so sad to me. Sniffle.

 

Meanwhile, I adore them both.

...Ok... I happened to hate that murderer and left him to rot in that cage. Least favorite companion in all DA for me. Different strokes.

[Arvaarad]

Many, including me, have questioned beliefs, customs, laws, culture, views on morality, etc. often ingrained since childhood despite discouragement from doing so. There are always thinkers and there are always conforming sheep. You're arguing Sten is susceptible to propaganda; thus a sheep. Fair enough. Many people are, but there have always been skeptics who question. It often doesn't end well for them, yes, which gives another reason to conform outside of blind obedience: fear of harm.

 

I wouldn't say the line is so clear-cut. Someone can do a lot of questioning and still (by pure luck) end up within the bounds of their community's belief system. Just by having the misfortune of asking the wrong questions. In a situation like that, a person's frame of reference is so skewed that they can believe they're asking tough questions, even if, to an outsider, they appear to never stray off the garden path.

 

While we're sharing anecdotal evidence, my brother and I are frequently mistaken for twins. We were nearly inseparable growing up. Practically had a language all our own, we were so on the same wavelength. We both rolled our eyes when our history books taught from a holy text instead of real history. We both railed against the more extreme aspects of our (already bordering-on-a-cult) community.

 

But he hasn't gotten out yet. Neither has my mother, the person who taught me to think critically.

 

I'm not stuck-up enough to think I'm special for getting out. Honestly, I was always more conforming than them. I just got lucky, had access to the right information at the right time and place. Many of my old circle of friends are clearer thinkers than me, better researchers. And they haven't gotten out either.

 

Escaping from a truly insular community requires more than a spot of research and a willingness to be proven wrong. It's not like, "oh, I have this one belief that can be changed", it's a whole constellation of beliefs. Quite often, the beliefs interlock in such a way that multiple ones have to be rejected simultaneously. And some of those beliefs turn natural skepticism against you (for example, by keeping people so busy being skeptical of outsiders that they don't have time to be skeptical of the community itself), among other dirty tricks. Breaking free requires a massive amount of luck and help from the outside. It has very little to do with who's more intelligent or questioning, because those very traits can be exploited to keep a person locked in.

[BansheeOwnage]

Pretty much. On top of what you mentioned, it's important to remember that they think the non-Qunari way of life causes suffering.

When they look at bas, it's like if you or I look at a friend who's a drug addict or in a toxic relationship. They're aware of the fact that bas don't want their help. In their minds, bas are so misguided that they don't recognize help when they see it. So, then, it's up to the Qunari to give them some tough love.

This happens all the time with real-world cults and even extreme political movements. It's why it can often be so hard to debate people in these kinds of communities. They truly and deeply believe they're acting out of compassion, so they just get confused and defensive when people accuse them of "spreading hate" or "violence". According to their worldview, they're saving people from their own destructive tendencies.

Possibly the scariest kind of people.

[BansheeOwnage]

 

I adored Sten -- I mean, he is my first DA love. I adored him. My warden fell flat for him. She settled for (granted: adorable) Alistair only after no options for Sten.

 

• DAI Character limitations/changes: Iron Bull appears to be much more malleable. However charming and smart he may seem, he isn't, but he's far more adept at appearing so.

That's... surprising. No judgements, I've just never seen someone so infatuated by Sten before

 

Anyway, about the last line: It's actually the other way around - Bull is a lot more perceptive and clever than he lets on. He intentionally gives people the impression that he's dumb muscle, which is easy since he loves fighting anyway. Sort of like how enemies underestimate Solas or Mordin until it's too late.

 

Never see me coming...

 

Except instead of being more powerful than they appear, he's smarter than he appears. I know smart is a really vague term, and there are a lot of different ways of being smart, but overall, he is. I mean, I'm not dumb, but I can't play chess in my head - and almost beat a trickster god to boot

[paramitch]

If Sten left, he'd be giving up his community in return for... nothing. Just isolation, and a hearty dose of racism from the rest of Thedas. So why even contemplate leaving the Qun? Just keep convincing yourself it's true, make the best of it.

In contrast, Bull has had the luxury to consider alternate viewpoints. Because, if considering those alternate viewpoints leads him to reject the Qun, he has a place to land when he leaves. Sten can only begin to think about these viewpoints after the Warden becomes kadan to him. And he still doesn't have a full circle of friends yet, it's mostly just the HoF.

 

I think the point you make is key -- Bull has a network already in place with the Chargers (and further strengthens this with the Inquisition if he befriends the Inquisitor). Sten was already so absolutely inured and indoctrinated that he broke when he lost his sword, and his highest compliment is simply that he hopes he will not meet us on the battlefield. That's pretty hardcore. (I mean, I love him, but... yeah.)

 

Sten has the typical qunari arrogant certainty that you see in all qunari up until meeting Tallis, Gatt, and the Iron Bull. Iron Bull isn't devout (I'm pretty sure even saying the qun is not perfect is heretical), and possibly never was, but he is loyal. He worked in Seheron until burning out to protect its people; not because the qun is flawless in his mind. He's also not the type who'd strangle eight people including children over a lost friggin sword; even without a support network outside the qun IMO.

 

Here's my big confession: I really hate Sten's backstory in DAO. I just think it's not necessarily as believable as it could be. I mean, I could buy that a Qunari might kill an entire family over a sword. But not that he'd be broken up about it. Yet the person we see is so devastated it's obvious some kind of real mental break happened. So I always headcanon that Sten had been drugged or messed with in some magical way, awoke and genuinely went nuts, thinking he was being betrayed and lied to on multiple levels.

 

He wouldn't kill them over his sword but he'd have very likely slaughtered a family that he's told are enemy spies that must be neutralized.

 

And he's probably hate himself and anguish over the repressed emotions and considerations about it but he'd probably do it.

 

Pre-Chargers I mean.

 

So yeah. Loyal. But yeah, a bigger heart. Muh Bull.

 

Sten is more of a grunt, by definition and otherwise, and he is relatively less about loyalty and relatively more about just not knowing anything else and feeling panic/fear at even the possibility of dealing with those things. Its Bull that WANTS to deal with other things than Qun, yet that's problematic in his role.

 

IB is more of a political story. And good - this is a thematic change throughout DAI compared to say DAO. I liked this difference in DAI though I know others didn't and would have preferred something more openly 'epic' and combat centered.

 

I agree, to an extent. Bull's very role requires him to be genial, seamless at assimilation, welcome anywhere. I don't know if I think Sten is a grunt, exactly, but I do think he's required to act in a much simpler role (and to me he's a very tragic figure).

 

...Ok... I happened to hate that murderer and left him to rot in that cage. Least favorite companion in all DA for me. Different strokes.

 

If it helps, see my earlier note above -- I didn't like Sten's introduction either, at least in terms of believability. I definitely don't think in the real world that my Warden would have actually brought a gigantic, mentally fragile murderer onto her team without a second thought. But I was moved by Sten in spite of myself and aside from his introduction, I was very glad to have gotten to know him. He's a fascinating character in the end. And often really, really dryly funny.

 

That's... surprising. No judgements, I've just never seen someone so infatuated by Sten before

 

Anyway, about the last line: It's actually the other way around - Bull is a lot more perceptive and clever than he lets on. He intentionally gives people the impression that he's dumb muscle, which is easy since he loves fighting anyway. Sort of like how enemies underestimate Solas or Mordin until it's too late.

 

Never see me coming...

 

Except instead of being more powerful than they appear, he's smarter than he appears. I know smart is a really vague term, and there are a lot of different ways of being smart, but overall, he is. I mean, I'm not dumb, but I can't play chess in my head - and almost beat a trickster god to boot

 

Oops, I want to clarify -- that's actually exactly what I meant (not the reverse). That Bull is WAY more subtle, smart and perceptive than he appears. It's why he's one of my favorite characters in the DAI-verse. I love that about him. Even the fact that he introduces himself to you as a spy right off is meant to put you at ease -- Bull's brilliant that way about hiding in plain sight.

 

I especially love the small character notes -- Bull's a big goofy lug, the muscle, but he happens to be the muscle that can, you know, play mind-chess with Solas, give Blackwall an Orlesian safe-word well before we find out about him, outline the steps of the Dance of the Six Candles with Vivienne, and quietly observe that with Solas (as with himself!) "half our targets never even see you coming." 

 

Meanwhile, on Sten: Part of it was the wonderful voice-actor for me (I loved Hildreth's performance). But I also found him so fascinating because he seems one way -- staid, emotionless, etc., but what he actually is (I feel) is trapped. Trapped by the Qun and his own culture, and yet to me the DAO story was about him finding companionship and friendship and there was simply no way for him to express any of it. And I found the subversive idea of a silent romantic attachment of him to my Warden really irresistible because it takes that a step further.

 

I liked the tragedy of Sten in a way. When we met him he was in a cage. But in the end, we realize he carries that cage wherever he goes. But in spite of that, he was a rich character to me -- dryly funny and often surprisingly moving.

[congokong]

 

If it helps, see my earlier note above -- I didn't like Sten's introduction either, at least in terms of believability. I definitely don't think in the real world that my Warden would have actually brought a gigantic, mentally fragile murderer onto her team without a second thought. But I was moved by Sten in spite of myself and aside from his introduction, I was very glad to have gotten to know him. He's a fascinating character in the end. And often really, really dryly funny.

I find his insight into the qunari to be interesting, but not him personally. Sadly, without recruiting him, you're left pretty much completely ignorant about the qunari in DA:O.

 

And yes, a big issue for me is how absolutely ridiculous his recruitment is. Given what you know at the time, it's insanity to want to bring someone like that with you. Who'd arm a giant who strangled eight people who saved him (including children), won't give a reason why, and let him sleep near you at night?! Even Sten said to watch your allies closer than your enemies. At the very least, even after he finally tells you why he murdered all those people (which requires recruiting him, mind you), it's obvious he has anger issues. No one in control of their emotions massacres innocents in a time of despair. If that weren't so, when people lose family members in tragedy it'd be the norm for them to take guns and go on shooting sprees.

 

I hate him personally as well. He's boring, insulting, too serious, finds every discussion to be a distraction, has irritable "certainty" coupled with narrow-mindedness which leads to many circular arguments, etc. His logic also doesn't make sense.

 

Ex: He's fine with abandoning Redcliffe to die if they're too weak to defend themselves, yet feels compelled to defend the weak over taking a sword without payment; to the point of actually stealing your money to pay a woman?!

Ex: He's against magic, murder, and yet supports Caladrius' blood magic on the remaining elven captives in the alienage?

 

I have no interest in helping him regain his "honor," helping him reclaim a sword that he murdered eight people over losing, or guiding him to become arishok of the very oppressive convert/enslave/kill qunari.

[sniper_arrow]

I find his insight into the qunari to be interesting, but not him personally. Sadly, without recruiting him, you're left pretty much completely ignorant about the qunari in DA:O.

 

And yes, a big issue for me is how absolutely ridiculous his recruitment is. Given what you know at the time, it's insanity to want to bring someone like that with you. Who'd arm a giant who strangled eight people who saved him (including children), won't give a reason why, and let him sleep near you at night?! Even Sten said to watch your allies closer than your enemies. At the very least, even after he finally tells you why he murdered all those people (which requires recruiting him, mind you), it's obvious he has anger issues. No one in control of their emotions massacres innocents in a time of despair. If that weren't so, when people lose family members in tragedy it'd be the norm for them to take guns and go on shooting sprees.

 

I hate him personally as well. He's boring, insulting, too serious, finds every discussion to be a distraction, has irritable "certainty" coupled with narrow-mindedness which leads to many circular arguments, etc. His logic also doesn't make sense.

 

Ex: He's fine with abandoning Redcliffe to die if they're too weak to defend themselves, yet feels compelled to defend the weak over taking a sword without payment; to the point of actually stealing your money to pay a woman?!

Ex: He's against magic, murder, and yet supports Caladrius' blood magic on the remaining elven captives in the alienage?

 

I have no interest in helping him regain his "honor," helping him reclaim a sword that he murdered eight people over losing, or guiding him to become arishok of the very oppressive convert/enslave/kill qunari.

 

My, aren't we salty...

[congokong]

My, aren't we salty...

lol I realize it might look that way when I list a bunch of reasons for personally hating a character. It's not like hating a real person though. I have no actual anger toward a fictional character, and aren't even mildly upset when writing things like my last post. Discussing DA, even in such a context, is intriguing for me. It becomes a burden when you realize you're pointlessly arguing with someone who has a polar opinion from you; especially when they display great ignorance and/or contradictions.

[sniper_arrow]

lol I realize it might look that way when I list a bunch of reasons for personally hating a character. It's not like hating a real person though. I have no actual anger toward a fictional character, and aren't even mildly upset when writing things like my last post. Discussing DA, even in such a context, is intriguing for me. It becomes a burden when you realize you're pointlessly arguing with someone who has a polar opinion from you; especially when they display great ignorance and/or contradictions.

 

Well, there's this thing called "take a break and enjoy life". You'll be more less immune to stress if you keep arguing to a wall.

[congokong]

Well, there's this thing called "take a break and enjoy life". You'll be more less immune to stress if you keep arguing to a wall.

I know. When I realize I'm getting sucked into a pointless internet debate I end it there and just agree to disagree.

[myahele]

If you avoid doing his quest and thus the Charges are still alive by trespasser, he'll still betray you. Although that might be due to him maybe going for re-education between the time-skip.

 

My best guess is that he no longer wants to be in the Qun. Cole read his mind and says some like "You wait for them to attack .. so it makes it easier for him to attack back" meaning that he'd really not fight anyone. And when he does he must think they aren't "people" to make it easier to kill them:

 

Who knows, maybe if he were just a mere non-combatant spy then he'd still be loyal to the Qun?

[paramitch]

I find his insight into the qunari to be interesting, but not him personally. Sadly, without recruiting him, you're left pretty much completely ignorant about the qunari in DA:O.

 

And yes, a big issue for me is how absolutely ridiculous his recruitment is. Given what you know at the time, it's insanity to want to bring someone like that with you. Who'd arm a giant who strangled eight people who saved him (including children), won't give a reason why, and let him sleep near you at night?! Even Sten said to watch your allies closer than your enemies. At the very least, even after he finally tells you why he murdered all those people (which requires recruiting him, mind you), it's obvious he has anger issues. No one in control of their emotions massacres innocents in a time of despair. If that weren't so, when people lose family members in tragedy it'd be the norm for them to take guns and go on shooting sprees.

 

I hate him personally as well. He's boring, insulting, too serious, finds every discussion to be a distraction, has irritable "certainty" coupled with narrow-mindedness which leads to many circular arguments, etc. His logic also doesn't make sense.

 

Ex: He's fine with abandoning Redcliffe to die if they're too weak to defend themselves, yet feels compelled to defend the weak over taking a sword without payment; to the point of actually stealing your money to pay a woman?!

Ex: He's against magic, murder, and yet supports Caladrius' blood magic on the remaining elven captives in the alienage?

 

I have no interest in helping him regain his "honor," helping him reclaim a sword that he murdered eight people over losing, or guiding him to become arishok of the very oppressive convert/enslave/kill qunari.

 

I agree with you as far as the 'recruiting' angle goes (see my notes upthread) -- I don't think Sten's origin story is as well-presented or thought-out as it might be. I was very troubled by the "murders a whole family and then waits for you to recruit him" angle -- it never quite worked for me without a lot of headcanon.

 

But afterward I do continue to find him really complex and interesting. And the actor's performance, and the scriptwriting really made me care about him. He's very funny, smart, and yet believably Qunari (limited by circumstance). So it was very moving to me when he started calling my Warden "Kadan." Because to me, it's -- in-game -- the only way he can express the affection and comradeship he feels, at all. It is his one outlet. Because the Qun has stifled all others.

 

And on the plus side, I would add that nobody would enter DA2 knowing anything about the Qunari at all if they totally disregarded Sten, so he does make for a fascinating story/POV counterpoint. 

 

It becomes a burden when you realize you're pointlessly arguing with someone who has a polar opinion from you; especially when they display great ignorance and/or contradictions.

 

I liked talking about this with you, even if we didn't agree. Is it "pointless" just because our points of view don't meet? I don't agree. 

 

And I'm definitely hoping you weren't addressing me with the last part. I'm not ignorant, contradictory, or stupid. Although I am a total goofball and capable of being a massive idiot. I'll totally admit that aspect.

 

Thanks for the conversation, apologies if it ended up being more inflammatory than I intended. And yeah, I still like Sten as a party member. So if we ever team up after the world ends, I'll have to send him on missions or something so we all get along. :-)

[congokong]

I liked talking about this with you, even if we didn't agree. Is it "pointless" just because our points of view don't meet? I don't agree. 

 

And I'm definitely hoping you weren't addressing me with the last part. I'm not ignorant, contradictory, or stupid. Although I am a total goofball and capable of being a massive idiot. I'll totally admit that aspect.

 

Thanks for the conversation, apologies if it ended up being more inflammatory than I intended. And yeah, I still like Sten as a party member. So if we ever team up after the world ends, I'll have to send him on missions or something so we all get along. :-)

I wasn't referring to you. No worries. You're very polite and respectful actually.

 

I just meant in general I'll end a conversation with someone online after a few posts if I realize we're talking in circles and neither of us are budging on our views. It becomes tiresome, as already mentioned, when people clearly show ignorance and/or are hypocritical in their logic. Yet I've enjoyed many intellectual conversations with people who don't necessarily agree with me; so long as their reasoning is sound. 

 

Regarding Sten, I'm not bothered that people like his character. I do get bothered, however, when people poorly argue that recruiting him outside meta-gaming is a wise decision. The excuses I've heard...

[GoldenGail3]

He wants you to save The Chargers.

[vertigomez]

Regarding Sten, I'm not bothered that people like his character. I do get bothered, however, when people poorly argue that recruiting him outside meta-gaming is a wise decision. The excuses I've heard...

Duncan recruiting my Warden wasn't the wisest decision. I'm just following in his footsteps.

[Arvaarad]

If you avoid doing his quest and thus the Charges are still alive by trespasser, he'll still betray you. Although that might be due to him maybe going for re-education between the time-skip.

My best guess is that he no longer wants to be in the Qun. Cole read his mind and says some like "You wait for them to attack .. so it makes it easier for him to attack back" meaning that he'd really not fight anyone. And when he does he must think they aren't "people" to make it easier to kill them:


Who knows, maybe if he were just a mere non-combatant spy then he'd still be loyal to the Qun?

That seems likely. All signs suggest he had a very positive experience with the Qun on a personal level. Any time he had concerns with the Qun, it was based on the Qun's behavior toward other people, never toward himself.

[paramitch]

That seems likely. All signs suggest he had a very positive experience with the Qun on a personal level. Any time he had concerns with the Qun, it was based on the Qun's behavior toward other people, never toward himself.

 

I don't agree with this at all.

 

I think in actuality, Bull himself tells us of several really really troubling instances where he himself did not fit the Qun, but was (1) forced to acquiesce, and then (2) (worse) forced himself to do so, as when he could not find meaning any longer and voluntarily submitted himself for reeducation (Qun brainwashing) just to get some peace.

 

Then kept on going, yet (notably) became a freelance Ben-Hassrath agent with a ton more freedom. I really think this is important and deliberate -- Bull was not capable of continuing internally, so they found a way for him to be useful long-range, simply because I believe they found him too useful to toss away.

 

But they were waiting and watching always.

 

Which is why the Chargers decision is such a big deal, as is (ultimately) the Trespasser moment as the real gut-puncher.

 

The final outcome is dependent, I feel, on whether players truly listen to Bull (as Sera beautifully points out, he is already on his way out), or try to make a less emotional choice in favor of strategy (the Dreadnought). Both are defensible. But both also lead to really beautifully predictable if devastating conclusions.

 

I love that the game went here, and fully support it, even if I can't bear too watch it. It's too painful. I love Bull like I love people I know. He's amazing. But I fully believe -- as wonderful as he is -- that he has the capacity for cold betrayal in him if we do not save him from himself. Trespasser shows us that this point of view is, unfortunately, real.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I don't agree with this at all.

 

I think in actuality, Bull himself tells us of several really really troubling instances where he himself did not fit the Qun, but was (1) forced to acquiesce, and then (2) (worse) forced himself to do so, as when he could not find meaning any longer and voluntarily submitted himself for reeducation (Qun brainwashing) just to get some peace.

 

Then kept on going, yet (notably) became a freelance Ben-Hassrath agent with a ton more freedom. I really think this is important and deliberate -- Bull was not capable of continuing internally, so they found a way for him to be useful long-range, simply because I believe they found him too useful to toss away.

 

But they were waiting and watching always.

 

Which is why the Chargers decision is such a big deal, as is (ultimately) the Trespasser moment as the real gut-puncher.

 

The final outcome is dependent, I feel, on whether players truly listen to Bull (as Sera beautifully points out, he is already on his way out), or try to make a less emotional choice in favor of strategy (the Dreadnought). Both are defensible. But both also lead to really beautifully predictable if devastating conclusions.

 

I love that the game went here, and fully support it, even if I can't bear too watch it. It's too painful. I love Bull like I love people I know. He's amazing. But I fully believe -- as wonderful as he is -- that he has the capacity for cold betrayal in him if we do not save him from himself. Trespasser shows us that this point of view is, unfortunately, real.

Cole's line if you save the Chargers about "Feeling guilty about not feeling guilty" pretty much shows he wants to save the Chargers.

[congokong]

Cole's line if you save the Chargers about "Feeling guilty about not feeling guilty" pretty much shows he wants to save the Chargers.

When does he say this? Is it in party banter?

[congokong]

I love that the game went here, and fully support it, even if I can't bear too watch it. It's too painful. I love Bull like I love people I know. He's amazing. But I fully believe -- as wonderful as he is -- that he has the capacity for cold betrayal in him if we do not save him from himself. Trespasser shows us that this point of view is, unfortunately, real.

I know what you mean. Sacrificing the Chargers has become so much harder since Trespasser. I still think it's the best decision tactics-wise, and I knew even before the DLC that Iron Bull felt terrible over losing them. Yet seeing how it turns him into this qun-serving sleeper agent with no emotional attachment to people anymore is very painful, and very fitting considering the sacrifice you expected him to make.

[thesuperdarkone2]

When does he say this? Is it in party banter?

It's one of Cole and Bull's banters.

[paramitch]

When does he say this? Is it in party banter?

 

As thesuperdarkone2 mentioned, it's a one-line party banter from Cole to Iron Bull if you saved the Chargers:

 

COLE: "Salt-spray smell of Seheron. Lost in smoke from a burning ship. Guilt at not feeling guiltier."

 

 

I know what you mean. Sacrificing the Chargers has become so much harder since Trespasser. I still think it's the best decision tactics-wise, and I knew even before the DLC that Iron Bull felt terrible over losing them. Yet seeing how it turns him into this qun-serving sleeper agent with no emotional attachment to people anymore is very painful, and very fitting considering the sacrifice you expected him to make.

 

Do you think that even after Trespasser? I'm curious, because Trespasser basically tells us that the Qunari offer of alliance was every bit as untrustworthy as it appeared, and that they had in fact immediately put into effect plans for invasion before making that offer.

 

I mean, when DotQ is triggered, Bull's still Qun-loyal at that point, yet he pretty blatantly tells the Inquisitor that it's hard to trust the offer. So I never found it hard to sacrifice the Dreadnought (I try to act with my character and not do too much meta gaming but it's probably especially hard for me to do here) -- it's tragic, but for me, the Chargers are still tactically worth more, especially in the face of an alliance that doesn't appear genuine.

[congokong]

As thesuperdarkone2 mentioned, it's a one-line party banter from Cole to Iron Bull if you saved the Chargers:

 

COLE: "Salt-spray smell of Seheron. Lost in smoke from a burning ship. Guilt at not feeling guiltier."

 

 

 

Do you think that even after Trespasser? I'm curious, because Trespasser basically tells us that the Qunari offer of alliance was every bit as untrustworthy as it appeared, and that they had in fact immediately put into effect plans for invasion before making that offer.

 

I mean, when DotQ is triggered, Bull's still Qun-loyal at that point, yet he pretty blatantly tells the Inquisitor that it's hard to trust the offer. So I never found it hard to sacrifice the Dreadnought (I try to act with my character and not do too much meta gaming but it's probably especially hard for me to do here) -- it's tragic, but for me, the Chargers are still tactically worth more, especially in the face of an alliance that doesn't appear genuine.

Even with meta-gaming, I still think sacrificing the Chargers is the best decision. Remember, the qunari plot in Trespasser is stopped regardless.

 

The qunari did keep their end in aiding to stop Corypheus, and likely saved many lives with their influence during that period. The fact that they proved untrustworthy two years later...? Well, duh. What do you expect? When I agreed to align with them I don't recall it meant being BFFs with them forever. The qunari were supposed to be kept at arms-length. If an alliance allowed them to get too close, then I blame the Inquisition, especially Leliana who was gullible enough to believe Iron Bull in Trespasser just because he said so. I suspected he was lying the entire time. It's unclear just how much the alliance influenced Trespasser though, as everything plays out exactly the same minus the Iron Bull betrayal. I don't even know why the Inquisition continued to align with them years later. The Inquisition was just asking for a backstabbing there.

 

That being said, it is much easier to save the Chargers now with the knowledge of that upcoming betrayal and what happens to Iron Bull if they are sacrificed. I only save them though with characters where that choice is believable for them to make. My canon is a Vashok mage who loathes the qun, and didn't trust qunari, so she saved the Chargers.