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[Dai Grepher]

If one goes down the time-travel-into-the-future path in recruiting the mages, a world ruled by Corypheus seems to be a world dying from cancer/Blight. Red lyrium is everywhere. The Fade is bleeding through more rifts and more demons are pouring through. Corypheus has clearly forgotten all about Thedas and is letting it slowly destroy itself. He's really only interested in one thing, gaining more magical power. The more Blight, the more red lyrium, the more his power grows. The more people that are dead on Thedas, the less there are to challenge his power. Corypheus wants to step away from his humanity into godhood. With Corypheus... nothing has a chance to settle down and everybody will probably end up a red crystal lollipop. 

 

On the other hand, we have Solas. If his plan is achieved, the Veil will be gone and Thedas will return to its natural state. No world dying from the cancer of the Blight (red lyrium) and no mass invasion of demons, since demons are a product of the violent transference of spirit from Fade to real world through the rifts. No Veil = no rifts. If Solas's plan to take out the Evanuris is successful, he would probably assume whatever role he had before - which was not "world leader". With Solas, I could see, with time, the races achieving an equilibrium with one another after they settle back into a natural existence (whatever that is like) with the Fade. Solas eschews godhood and values individual freedoms and self-rule. He would resist the establishment of another Evanuris. 

 

Solas probably even tells himself that everyone will be better off in the long run since raising the Veil has essentially tranquil-fied everybody. How are the humans and qunari to evolve naturally with the Fade if the Veil is up? They can't. How many mages and others have died because of the demons created by the Veil and its odd effect on spirits relating with the real world? Seems like lots. 

 

Short term, Solas and Corypheus would kill a lot of people to achieve what they want. After that, their similarities end. Also, Solas is the only one out of the two I see being able to convince to modify their plan so that a lot of people aren't assuming room temperature. 

 

I replied to some things out of order. Sorry is this seems a little shuffled around.

 

It is unknown what has happened to the rest of the world in the dark future. We never see beyond Redcliffe Castle's courtyard and its skyline. However, was that not raw chaos? Couldn't that be similar to what will be created if the Veil is removed completely (sans the red lyrium)? Maybe Corypheus was only putting up with that chaos as a necessity until he could enter the Black City and obtain the ultimate power he thought was there.

 

"Natural state" is a matter of perspective. For all we know, the dark future was the natural state of Thedas before physical life existed. Like how Earth's natural state was once uninhabitable. In any case, the natural state of Thedas now is the state we have come to know in the games. Also, nothing indicates that Solas' plan will be successful in returning the world to what once was, nor that anyone will be able to survive in it aside from perhaps him and the evanuris. Solas is making many assumptions about the unknown. At least Corypheus had some evidence to work with in his plan to return to the Black City. Corypheus spared those who followed him. Only those who rejected him (or failed him) would be killed or turned to red lyrium. Same as how Solas will save whoever he wants and kill everyone else.

 

Demons are created in various ways. Some are spirits twisted from their purpose, as Solas says. Some are spirits twisted because of the rifts pulling them through, as confirmed by statements made by Cole. However, some spirits are demons naturally because they choose to be evil. The Shattered Library documents this when referring to Xebenkeck and the other Forbidden Ones. The Forgotten Ones are also said to have dwelled in the void, which made Andruil mentally ill when she went hunting there. And of course the evanuris themselves are said to be evil based on Solas' testimony. So there will always be demons if things are left to run their course naturally.

 

Solas' plan doesn't sound like it will destroy the Darkspawn taint. If anything it sounds like the old gods will be released from the physical obstructions that bind them. And the Darkspawn are naturally chaotic beings. They might thrive in a world full of raw chaos.

 

And how would Solas resist the establishment of other evanuris? By getting his hands bloody again? Solas grabs me as the type to offer all kids of advice that he thinks is right. He will likely do the same if his world is restored. He will still be a guide for "the people" who are naturally weak and usually looking for some authority to tell them how to live. And what if the people become independent and start fighting with each other? You think Solas won't unleash the Dread Wolf to maintain order?

 

I'm sure Solas does tell himself that all will be better off, but "tranquil" is also a matter of perspective. Solas thinks less of modern people simply because they lack an ability he has. Well, tranquil lack emotion, but that doesn't mean we should go around killing tranquil, or even that we should reawaken them without proper considerations and safety precautions.

 

You say their similarities end there because you didn't get to see Corypheus beyond the point when we destroy him. For all we know Corypheus thought he was doing the right thing, that all others were unenlightened and wrong, and that he would bring about true lasting peace once he obtains the ultimate power behind the big door.

[Dai Grepher]

Bioware is telling a story. "Solas telling us" is the method for telling us Solas's story. The vast amount of what we know about him I consider reliable since it's not necessary for a "cover" identity. 

 

Or are they telling us Solas' story? Maybe Solas isn't lying in Trespasser, but he could still be confused and mistaken, yes?
 

[Almostfaceman]

Or are they telling us Solas' story? Maybe Solas isn't lying in Trespasser, but he could still be confused and mistaken, yes?
 

 

No, I don't see Bioware getting that convoluted with the story. 

[Almostfaceman]

I replied to some things out of order. Sorry is this seems a little shuffled around.

*snip*

 

Thanks for your thoughts. 

 

Leliana tells us that the Fade rifts are all across the continent of Thedas (in the mage-time-magic-future-quest). There was also dialogue or something that Corypheus completed his original plan to enter the Fade. 

 

"Natural state" isn't a matter of perspective, with the information we have. There was Thedas for millenia, then this spell called the Veil was cast and it changed everything. So, the current state of Thedas is under this spell. I don't believe it's any more complicated than that. Anything else is pure speculation and not based on information in the story. 

 

Corypheus hasn't spared anyone who followed him as far as I could tell. Red lyrium was everywhere and it was just spreading unchecked. Bad news for everyone on Thedas, good news for Corypheus. Corypheus gets stronger with red lyrium because of the connection Solas describes with Cory and the Blight. 

 

Despite demons being created in various ways, the rifts in the alternate future were just getting worse, as indicated by dialogue from Leliana. This would create more problems for the spirits in the Fade and more demons would be created as a result, following the logic of all of Inquisition (you know, the reason the Inquisitor had to go around closing rifts). What we do know of the Veil is that it is warping the relations between spirits and denizens of the "real" world. 

 

And how would Solas resist the establishment of other evanuris? By getting his hands bloody again? Solas grabs me as the type to offer all kids of advice that he thinks is right. He will likely do the same if his world is restored. He will still be a guide for "the people" who are naturally weak and usually looking for some authority to tell them how to live. And what if the people become independent and start fighting with each other? You think Solas won't unleash the Dread Wolf to maintain order?

 

All of this you're saying is a world of what-if's that could easily go in any direction. My point was that the character of Solas is different than that of Corypheus. Corypheus is not the kind, sharing kind of fella. The first thing he tries to do is "not suffer any rival" and kill the Quizzy. He's in it for himself, and this is reflected in the alternate future. Solas is in it to restore the natural order and help re-establish the elves. He's certainly no saint, but I can see him co-existing with other races, with whomever survives the destruction of the Veil, if anyone does. 

 

Look it like this. When Corypheus has you at his mercy, he tries to kill you. When Solas has you at his mercy, he talks to you, reasons with you, explains his mindset, and saves you from dying from the Mark. Kinda says it all right there. 

 

You say their similarities end there because you didn't get to see Corypheus beyond the point when we destroy him.

 

Actually we do, in the alternate future and I've already touched on my opinion of his character based on how he's handled that alternate future.

 

If you can show me some examples from the game in that alternate future where it really seems like Corypheus is interested in Thedas beyond stamping out any possible rivals I'd be interested in that. I don't see anything like that. 

[Nonoru]

You know, except for the bit where a major part of his character is that he's more than willing to let most of the world die if it gets him his utopia back.

 

Or how the fact that he doesn't identify with either the Dalish or the City elves is well documented.

 

He's also willing to give up his life to make up for that. 

 

I addressed the second sentence in my previous post. 

[Medhia_Nox]

But it's not REALLY about any of those things with Solas. Those are just the ideas he throws up to try to justify himself. It's pretty clear what drives him is the guilt of having committed what he sees as a total genocide of his people by creating the Veil, and his desperation to undo it.

And you may find that a reasonable excuse... I find it pathetic.  

 

I've made mistakes in my life... if I could undo them but I had to hurt others to do it (and I'm not even talking on the level of Solas)... I would have purchased my absolution with even worse sin than what I committed in the original act.  

 

You cannot buy absolution... this is not an atonement, this is a self-absorbed attempt to erase his mistakes.  That he thinks mistakes can be erased simply illuminates his lack of any real wisdom.  

 

Nothing is erased... and that's what I cannot understand about people's support of this idea.  The wrong he did... is still the wrong he did.  This isn't making piece with it... I find no humility here.  This is simply someone so arrogant as to think another world shattering even is useful to correct the first. 

 

It won't work... because it doesn't work.  The one example of sapient meddling we have in our real world has proven time and time again that meddling in nature simply continuously breaks delicately balanced systems. 

 

No thousands year old uber-mage I would respect would not understand such very basic principles.  

[Dai Grepher]

No, I don't see Bioware getting that convoluted with the story. 

 

Getting? Trespasser is as convoluted as it gets, and not just about the elves and Solas, but about the other plots as well. I don't think it's a stretch to think that Solas is not going to be the big bad in the next installment but rather just a stepping stone to the next plot, like Corypheus was in Legacy and Inquisition for Solas. I doubt BioWare is planning to reset the series with a clean slate (tearing down the Veil). Solas' plan will fail and the world BioWare has spent years building will be preserved. I think this is obvious. So the only question is how Solas comes to realize this failure. Personally, I think he's being used (unbeknownst to him) by the Forbidden Ones and perhaps Razikale, which was my original theory about Corypheus. But it seems Corypheus was just an interloper, a gnat.

 

 

Thanks for your thoughts. 

 

Leliana tells us that the Fade rifts are all across the continent of Thedas (in the mage-time-magic-future-quest). There was also dialogue or something that Corypheus completed his original plan to enter the Fade. 

 

"Natural state" isn't a matter of perspective, with the information we have. There was Thedas for millenia, then this spell called the Veil was cast and it changed everything. So, the current state of Thedas is under this spell. I don't believe it's any more complicated than that. Anything else is pure speculation and not based on information in the story. 

 

Corypheus hasn't spared anyone who followed him as far as I could tell. Red lyrium was everywhere and it was just spreading unchecked. Bad news for everyone on Thedas, good news for Corypheus. Corypheus gets stronger with red lyrium because of the connection Solas describes with Cory and the Blight. 

 

Despite demons being created in various ways, the rifts in the alternate future were just getting worse, as indicated by dialogue from Leliana. This would create more problems for the spirits in the Fade and more demons would be created as a result, following the logic of all of Inquisition (you know, the reason the Inquisitor had to go around closing rifts). What we do know of the Veil is that it is warping the relations between spirits and denizens of the "real" world. 

 

And how would Solas resist the establishment of other evanuris? By getting his hands bloody again? Solas grabs me as the type to offer all kids of advice that he thinks is right. He will likely do the same if his world is restored. He will still be a guide for "the people" who are naturally weak and usually looking for some authority to tell them how to live. And what if the people become independent and start fighting with each other? You think Solas won't unleash the Dread Wolf to maintain order?

 

All of this you're saying is a world of what-if's that could easily go in any direction. My point was that the character of Solas is different than that of Corypheus. Corypheus is not the kind, sharing kind of fella. The first thing he tries to do is "not suffer any rival" and kill the Quizzy. He's in it for himself, and this is reflected in the alternate future. Solas is in it to restore the natural order and help re-establish the elves. He's certainly no saint, but I can see him co-existing with other races, with whomever survives the destruction of the Veil, if anyone does. 

 

Look it like this. When Corypheus has you at his mercy, he tries to kill you. When Solas has you at his mercy, he talks to you, reasons with you, explains his mindset, and saves you from dying from the Mark. Kinda says it all right there. 

 

You say their similarities end there because you didn't get to see Corypheus beyond the point when we destroy him.

 

Actually we do, in the alternate future and I've already touched on my opinion of his character based on how he's handled that alternate future.

 

If you can show me some examples from the game in that alternate future where it really seems like Corypheus is interested in Thedas beyond stamping out any possible rivals I'd be interested in that. I don't see anything like that. 

 

 

Thanks for reading them.

 

I don't remember anything about him being said to have entered the Fade, or his plans beyond killing Celene and the demon army. I mean, they didn't even say his name. But assuming it was said that the Elder One entered the Fade, that still doesn't mean he reached the Black City yet. And even if he did, it all depends on if the power he sought was there or not. If not, then there was little he could do about the raw chaos. If so, then perhaps he was "correcting" the blighted world elsewhere. Redcliffe was left alone because Alexius was there, and he failed him. So why bother helping that area? My guess is he did not get the power, either because he didn't enter the Black City yet, or there was no power there. But closing the rifts required the anchor, which he didn't have. He was able to enter the Fade through the Breach, which hadn't been closed yet.

 

But my point about the "natural state" is that this is a matter of opinion. Solas considers the natural state to be the Elvhen empire that spanned all of Thedas, which he destroyed. Corypheus on the other hand considers the natural state to be the Tevinter empire that spanned all of Thedas, which he too destroyed. But what was the natural state before Corypheus? Solas' world? And what was the natural state before Solas? The world of the titans?

 

Bow before your new god and be spared? At least he was willing to spare them if they bowed to him. Solas wasn't. Cory spared Fiona. Well why would he stop the red lyrium then if it makes him stronger? The only people at risk were those who opposed Corypheus. The Venatori didn't mind the red lyrium. They knew to avoid it. And even Corypheus had a way to remove the red lyrium if necessary, which is mentioned by the dying templar who reveals what Imshael told him about reversing the process.

 

Fine, there was more chaos in the bad future than there probably will be if the Veil drops completely. But the point is that there will still be demons regardless. Solas is going to have to do something about them.

 

It isn't "what if". Solas spouts his platitudes any chance he gets, and he seems to have only grown more arrogant and condescending in Trespasser. He tells Flemeth that the people need him. So assuming his plan works, the elves will need him to show them how to exist in that new reality, and how to prosper. Corypheus is not the kind, sharing kind of fella to YOU, because you are his rival. But his memory crystals show that he does have compassion for Calpernia. He talks about how she was misused by the fools in Tevinter, and how no one but he saw her true potential. He also shows he cares about how she thinks of him when he acknowledges that she will be angry at what must be done but in time she will forgive. I don't see Solas coexisting with other races, especially when other races can breed elves out of existence. And this is assuming non-elves survive at all. It's possible that all other races will die in the sudden shock of the Veil being destroyed and the Fade flooding in to the real world.

 

All it says is that Corypheus will kill you outright, whereas Solas will kill you later.

 

We don't get to see his actions in the dark future either, aside from the fact that he is willing to kill Alexius for his failure. So what if there were rifts? He didn't have the anchor to close them, and besides, he needed the demons as an army to crush the opposition. So what if red lyrium is everywhere? He needed it to increase his power.

 

His rivals still existed in that future, so of course that will be one of his main concerns. Beyond that, this was a point in the game when we were not supposed to know anything of his ultimate goal. It is also in a world where the Breach has grown, compared to one where it was closed. So it isn't a good example. But he states his intentions at Haven, to champion withered Tevinter and correct this blighted world. Sounds similar to Solas. And don't get me wrong, I don't deny that Solas is different from Corypheus in various ways, I'm just saying that they are very similar.

 

Nothing is erased... and that's what I cannot understand about people's support of this idea.  The wrong he did... is still the wrong he did.  This isn't making piece with it... I find no humility here.  This is simply someone so arrogant as to think another world shattering even is useful to correct the first. 

 

It won't work... because it doesn't work.  The one example of sapient meddling we have in our real world has proven time and time again that meddling in nature simply continuously breaks delicately balanced systems.

 

Agree with most of your post, but it could theoretically be erased if time travel is involved. Like how the dark future is erased if you succeed in returning to your time and preventing Alexius' takeover of Redcliffe and the expansion of the Breach. Maybe Solas needs the Veil out of his way in order for the time travel magic to work, like how the Breach needed to exist for Alexius to go back in time.

[paramitch]

Of course he's used people. Leaders, by definition, use people. But that doesn't mean the leader, or general, doesn't care, or can't care about the people they use. To suggest otherwise is a rather juvenile viewpoint.

 

In real life, there are situations that have nothing but crappy solutions. I'm not sure about in this case... but I tend to think it may have been so when Solas - when presented with the world ending at the hands of the Evanuris - made the decision to raise the Veil over the Fade. 

 

Solas quite clearly grows to care for all the people of Thedas, which makes his decision more interesting and nuanced. 

 

Why do I think he cares? There's a whole host of things he talks about that have nothing to do with maintaining some "cover" about being a modern elf. Plus, we have the Trespasser DLC, where the Inquisitor is put in the position of being totally vulnerable to Solas. Does Solas do the easy thing and kill the Inquisitor? That would be the most logical thing to do, if he were a callous person intent only on maintaining some cover while he works to throw down the Veil. No, he doesn't kill the Inquisitor, because he cares and much of what he reveals about his character... is genuine. 

 

I want to make it clear, that I don't agree with Solas about destroying Thedas. Killing so many people to restore the elves is reprehensible... but Solas has a conscience. 

 

I think we'll be able to use that conscience to bend him away from this genocide, in DA4. This was not something at play, at all, in the case of Corypheus. 

 

First off, kudos on some really beautiful and thoughtfully written posts. I found Solas really fascinating, and your point of view works with how I view the character as well. 

 

For me, Solas -- as we get to know him across DAI -- is a person who has been shaped, perhaps literally, by loneliness (even his name implies it). And loneliness as a kind of ultimate punishment -- no wonder his fear is "dying alone." He's already living it. He's loneliness personified.

 

I have lots of thoughts about Solas's past Fen'Harel / Dread Wolf aspect, but I don't feel like I have a handle on the facts of his past deeds yet. So I'll just judge what we see. And I actually think that what happens to him in his Solas guise is that he ends up being blindsided by his feelings not just for the Inquisitor, but for Thedas and the waking world. He is used to a world of dreams and to perhaps moving the chesspieces there, but is waking up, literally. First, to a nightmare, but gradually, you see him begin to appreciate the world and the people close to him.

 

My take on Solas is that he evolves from anger at the Dalish and their treatment of his overtures into something more accepting. Look at the early scene when Solas confronts the Lavellan Inquisitor in romance or friendship, when they go to talk on the balcony. He's agitated, almost upset, and visibly questioning himself about his preconceptions about people of the world and most especially the Dalish. He actually allows himself to wonder out loud if he has in fact been wrong all along -- he asks her whether he was perhaps wrong about the Dalish, for instance. He asks if she has been changed by the Mark -- her mind, her (and he pauses because I think the word is so fraught for him, and voice actor Gareth David-Lloyd is brilliant) -- her spirit.

 

I personally think Solas means everything he says (to me, this makes him a richer character) and that he does little actual roleplaying except for the fact that, as you might expect with a living ancient god, most of his dialogue is shifting, mercurial, and offers multiple layers of meaning. (My favorite example of this is his "Ar lath ma, vhenan," which as this fabulous person brilliantly pointed out, has dual meanings at once, as "I love you, heart," and "You love me, heart.")

 

While there's definitely room for infinite interpretations on Solas, especially since I think it's up to us to decide how much of a role he's playing in his 'Solas-guise' -- to me it's more interesting to view him as someone fairly honest, who viewed nobody as "his people" -- but whose mind was then changed when he let his guard down. Throughout the story we encounter, I think Solas is closing the distance between himself and "his people" as he moves from dream (Fade) to reality. And that this phrase also changes for him as he awakens.

 

Solas is fascinating -- I love that he's such a chessmaster (literally), that even his name and its homonyms all imply multiple meanings ("sun" or "light" or "alone" via the root sol; peace or joy in Gaelic; homonyms that embody opposing ideas "solace" or "soulless") and that everything about him was hiding in plain sight. I love that his preference for a dream world ends up making even more sense once we realize he's living in his own nightmare. I think there's something very Miltonesque about Solas; it's as if Lucifer fell but not to hell (even worse) to earth and was trapped there by his own rage and arrogance and when he awoke all the other angels were gone. 

 

Whether true villain or something more complex, he's a really interesting potential ally or adversary either way. I hope -- as with Bull -- we are given a variety of potential options in the next game for how his situation can resolve, from darkest dark to lightest light. I was really moved by the final moments of "Trespasser" and find myself hoping he can be redeemed.

[In Exile]

And you may find that a reasonable excuse... I find it pathetic.

I've made mistakes in my life... if I could undo them but I had to hurt others to do it (and I'm not even talking on the level of Solas)... I would have purchased my absolution with even worse sin than what I committed in the original act.

You cannot buy absolution... this is not an atonement, this is a self-absorbed attempt to erase his mistakes. That he thinks mistakes can be erased simply illuminates his lack of any real wisdom.

Nothing is erased... and that's what I cannot understand about people's support of this idea. The wrong he did... is still the wrong he did. This isn't making piece with it... I find no humility here. This is simply someone so arrogant as to think another world shattering even is useful to correct the first.

It won't work... because it doesn't work. The one example of sapient meddling we have in our real world has proven time and time again that meddling in nature simply continuously breaks delicately balanced systems.

No thousands year old uber-mage I would respect would not understand such very basic principles.

I thing you misunderstand. I don't support Solas's plot to commit genocide because he can't handle the last time he inadvertently committed genocide.

It's not really about erasing his mistakes in the sense of assuaging his own feelings - I just think that he sees restoring his world as the only thing that matters.

[Gervaise]

You know, the thing that annoys me the most is not Solas at all but the choices they offer us and the way they are then represented.    You see to my mind most people, although it would seem from posts not all, would put their priority on saving the world, with Solas' welfare as secondary.    Now what you actually say to Solas is either:

"I will stop you" or "I will prove you wrong."    Nothing wrong with that.    I'm all for proving him wrong that he has to destroy the current world to achieve his aims, or proving to him that simply destroying the world does make him a monster regardless of how comfortable the people are when he does it.    I actually think it will be easier to change his mind than kill him, considering he can now petrify you with a thought and is also a powerful dreamer who can enter people's minds, alter their behaviour and even kill them.    You are not even going to get near him unless he wants you to.     Yet at the end, when plunging the knife into Tevinter, if you have opted for the "redeem Solas" choice earlier, you are given the speech "We will save our friend from himself."     Since when he was my friend I didn't know his plans and was thoroughly manipulated by him, I am going to be really annoyed if this choice means any dialogue from the Inquisitor in the next game is going to suggest that my priority is on saving his soul rather than convincing him of his error for the sake of everyone else.    Would I really put Solas' wellbeing above that every living thing on the face of Thedas?

[Zafireria]

Interesting reading, been wondering it myself. But what I seem to be struggling with is the statement that he destroyed his own people when he created the veil. Destroyed how? Did they start dying? Did humans started to walk in Thedas and cause conflicts with elves in such way that the elves started to die out or something? Or is he talking about their ability to control/feel/interact with the fade? 

 

The elves are still alive, so what did he mean by that? Sorry haven't read much lore about it yet, only read what he has said about it and some codex from the game itself. 

[ladyiolanthe]

Thank you and I do agree with a lot of your views, but with Sera I'm not so sure. It seems there will be more revealed about Sera and her nature in future games, she is special is some way to every other modern elf and I for one would love to know how. I always play an elf and a mage, but I never felt that Solas considered her one of his people, perhaps thats only my impression, but thats what I felt when I played the romance arc, especially when he drops her for not removing her vallaslin. I believe the elves that join Solas may be evacuated to another astral plain thru the eluvians to escape the veil/catastrophe but I don't see all being saved.

 

My Lavellan chose not to let him remove her vallaslin because they were a part of her. She said that she hoped he could look beyond them -  His response to that was really quite wonderful. "Stop! You are perfect, exactly as you are." And then passionate kiss and being dumped because he does that to all romanced Inquisitors.  But still, he respected her choice to keep her vallaslin, which is in keeping with his ideals of free will, etc.

 

Now, on to the main debate that seems to  be happening in this thread... I'll add a couple of wild cards that don't seem to have been brought up here yet: Solas presumably has both Mythal's spirit and Urthemiel's soul.

 

I do hope Solas is redeemable in future games as the OP also seems to hope. As you're about to reach Solas in Fen'Harel's temple, if you have Cole in your party, you hear him say "He doesn't want to hurt people. He's not that kind of wolf," which gives me a little hope for the future. If anyone has a window into Solas' true intentions, I do hope a Spirit of Compassion might. Cole is usually right about everyone else.  

 

In the slides at the end, it's suggested strongly that Solas is keeping an eye on the romanced Inquisitor through her dreams. (Maybe he does it with high approval Inquisitors too; I don't know). Which could be a good thing - maybe he will learn to love the world he created by seeing it reflected in her (or unromanced Inquisitors).  Maybe that will help him decide not to sacrifice millions of people to achieve his questionable goal? But it could also be a really bad thing... There's the matter of Mythal's geas. If Solas is keeping an eye on the Inquisitor, regardless of whether you chose to keep or disband the Inquisition, the Inquisitor may then become the hunt-for-Solas' security leak, and I am not going to be surprised if the Inquisitor or Morrigan (whoever drank from the Well of Sorrows in your game) becomes a tool for an irredeemable Solas.  He would likely be able to compel them via the geas, no?

 

I'm glad that my Inquisitor chose to disband the Inquisition.  She of course doesn't know that Solas apparently ended Flemeth-Mythal, but I can be somewhat satisfied that, if Solas-Mythal tries to compel her to do stuff for him, he won't have her armies also doing his bidding via her.

 

I'm not even going to try to figure out what Solas having Urthemiel's soul might mean for future games, since I don't feel that I have a sufficient grasp of what the Old Gods actually were like. But it might be a really bad situation.

 

(Also, don't you find it interesting that the language used by BioWare's writers was so specific?  Mythal's spirit. Urthemiel's soul. Sort of supports the idea that Elvhen might once have been spirits that became more material, like Cole did, that someone brought up earlier in this thread. What is the essential difference? Is there an essential difference? Do spirits and souls have distinctly different sources, or is it just semantics?)

[Gervaise]

Actually there is an interesting and cryptic line in the warning from the evanuris against Fen'Harel.   They say he knows much "of the People and their spirits".   This seems odd because normally you would say "of the People" and then "of spirits" if they were talking about two separate things and yet they use the word "their".    I am sure this has some sort of significance but not sure exactly what.     It is certainly true that Solas seems to know a great deal about spirits and the Fade, far more than he seems to know about the material world.    Perhaps their words refer to actual spirits or may be when they say "spirit" they are talking as we would of a "soul".   May be that is part of Solas' problem.   He understands the spirit/soul of the ancient elves but not the soul of modern people.  

 

No one seems to know exactly what happens to the soul after death, but the Chantry teach it travels through the Fade to find the Maker.    When the mortal form occupied by a spirit dies, the spirit simply returns to the Fade.   This is what happened with Mythal and this is what happened with Hakkon.    These spirits retain their identity.   I am not sure if this is because they are worshipped, so the prayers of the faithful help them retain their personality, or whether it is simply that they have experienced being a material creature.    By contrast a spirit that has been damaged in its essential being, like Solas' friend, effectively loses its personality when its essence returns to the Fade, so it that all that remains is the idea that categorises them, like wisdom.      

 

I have this idea that Solas thinks that in restoring the world of the elves, his action will release the spirits of those currently occupying the current world, so that they can be reborn in his remade world.    However, he could be in error in this; may be that is something that has to be proved to him, that in fact he will be bringing about their annihilation or at the very least they will be consigned to the deepest part of the Fade, never to react with his new world.   Thus he will be truly alone.    

[In Exile]

Interesting reading, been wondering it myself. But what I seem to be struggling with is the statement that he destroyed his own people when he created the veil. Destroyed how? Did they start dying? Did humans started to walk in Thedas and cause conflicts with elves in such way that the elves started to die out or something? Or is he talking about their ability to control/feel/interact with the fade?

The elves are still alive, so what did he mean by that? Sorry haven't read much lore about it yet, only read what he has said about it and some codex from the game itself.

The elves were immortal (in the sense of being ageless), apparently were all mages - or something like mages - and built a society that depended very strongly on the world being interlaced with the Fade. Solas took all of that away when he created the Veil.

[Zafireria]

The elves were immortal (in the sense of being ageless), apparently were all mages - or something like mages - and built a society that depended very strongly on the world being interlaced with the Fade. Solas took all of that away when he created the Veil.

 

Yeah I figured something alike that out after some thinking. Thanks for the clarification tho. 

[IllustriousT]

Great OP - I really enjoyed it. I know it is months later, but since I was only directed here today...wanted to give my Kudos!

 

(and a obvious bump)

[Almostfaceman]

Great OP - I really enjoyed it. I know it is months later, but since I was only directed here today...wanted to give my Kudos!

 

(and a obvious bump)

 

Well...

 

[nightscrawl]

I clicked on the recent link you posted in that other Solas thread.

I'll start off by saying that I am not heavily invested in the whole Solas debate. I selected the "redeem" option because that is the one that corresponded to my Inquisitor's -- male, human, warrior -- personality. I also must admit that I'm not too interested in "elfy" stuff in general.

That said, I did read the entire thing and found it very interesting. One thing that is really great about these forums is that you can read the views and see the experiences that other players have with the game, particularly when they don't match with your own. In my case, a large part of that is due to my own preference for playing the same character repeatedly, but that does tend to mean that my perspective is a bit limited unless I go out of my way to see other paths.
 
But I do have one question/comment...
 

So, why doesn't Solas take along the Inquisitor? Why doesn't he offer to restore our Quizzy? The Inquisitor, for Solas, is a champion of a world he is going to destroy.

With this line I wasn't sure if you were referring to an elf Inquisitor, or just the Inquisitor, regardless of race. I say this because you previously referred to "restoring" the elves, but at this point in the game the Inquisitor is also highly damaged from the Anchor and could use some restoration in that sense.

My initial read was for the elven Inquisitor only.

If that's the case that I just have to say, "Come on now..." There is NO way the writers would have had that ending path for the elven Inquisitor alone. This is one of the downsides of having so many origins and options in that regard; they have to, by necessity, make things be more generic to fit the wide range of options because having too many variables limits their options going forward. This is an intentional choice on the part of the devs, and one of they have been shown to make time and time again.

I would say that one of the more consequential choices in the entire series was the Iron Bull Chargers choice. Even something as seemingly important as the Dark Ritual, or going through the eluvian with Morrigan (or not), is reduced because of the alternate paths.
 
Now, perhaps you are one of those of the mind that the Inquisitor will not be featured again, despite whatever choice they took and whatever the post-credit scene revealed. If that's the case, then your statement makes a bit more sense. If the Inquisitor never appeared again, then they could certainly have had them go along with Solas and that would be their ending, never to be seen again (most likely).
 
But the game doesn't present it in that way. Whether the Inquisitor chose to redeem or stop Solas, they are given the appearance of being active just by the virtue of the post-credit cinematic. I've seen players say that they want their Inquisitor to retire, but regardless of whether they chose the "My adventuring days are over" line, they are presented as being active and invested in the future proceedings, and not going off to live on a beach, building a boat, waiting for their LI to stroll up one day.
 
Now, this isn't meant to be a discussion over whether or not the Inquisitor will appear, and the merits of that. I only mention that aspect of it because it is yet another limiting factor in the possibility of Solas offering to take the Inquisitor along. They weren't going to have the elven Inquisitor go with him, and yet show the other races, and those other elven Inquisitors that refused or weren't offered (perhaps in the case of non-friends), doing something wholly different at the end of the game.
 
You might say that he could still have offered but that the devs could have employed certain writing to make the Inquisitor refuse for one reason or another, but that is an equally poor choice. There would have been Solas fans screaming about the inability to accept the offer, and I'd also argue that it is very bad form to present such an offer to the player (and their PC), to then have the choice taken away. In that case, it's better to have no choice at all.


Really, that's the only flaw I find with your entire presentation.

[Xerrai]

Interesting reading, been wondering it myself. But what I seem to be struggling with is the statement that he destroyed his own people when he created the veil. Destroyed how? Did they start dying? Did humans started to walk in Thedas and cause conflicts with elves in such way that the elves started to die out or something? Or is he talking about their ability to control/feel/interact with the fade? 

 

The elves are still alive, so what did he mean by that? Sorry haven't read much lore about it yet, only read what he has said about it and some codex from the game itself. 

Depends on how you think Solas identifies as "people".

 

One of the first discussion you can have with him is what exactly qualifies as a person. Jus like you may consider a dwarf or a human a person, Solas has the opinion that spirits of the fade are people too. So, then, how can you tell a person is a person? With Solas viewing spirits as people, it is safe to say that to him, a person does not need a body made out of flesh and blood to be considered a person. All that matters, is their spirit (apparently).

 

But what qualifies as being a "spirit of a person"? For Solas pre-Inquisition, it seems that he considers a spirit of a person to be one that largely consciously connected to the fade. Something which the elves of modern Thedas have by and large lost. In fact, most of Thedas seems to have lost its conscious connection to the fade.

 

So from that perspective, when he says he "destroyed his people", he may mean that he destroyed what made them people in the first place--their spirit. Which, remember, he likely identified as the force that allows them to have a conscious connection to the fade (aka, the land of emotions, impression and memory). This connection was something that severed when he put up the veil.  

[Almostfaceman]

With this line I wasn't sure if you were referring to an elf Inquisitor, or just the Inquisitor, regardless of race. I say this because you previously referred to "restoring" the elves, but at this point in the game the Inquisitor is also highly damaged from the Anchor and could use some restoration in that sense.

My initial read was for the elven Inquisitor only.

If that's the case that I just have to say, "Come on now..." There is NO way the writers would have had that ending path for the elven Inquisitor alone. This is one of the downsides of having so many origins and options in that regard; they have to, by necessity, make things be more generic to fit the wide range of options because having too many variables limits their options going forward. This is an intentional choice on the part of the devs, and one of they have been shown to make time and time again.
 

 

I did have in mind an elven Inquisitor when I wrote that, but I think the "champion of a world he's/she's going to destroy" applies to any race. Like Shepard, Bioware limits the Inquisitor to hero status. We have some latitude, but we're still defenders of Thedas when it comes right down to the nitty gritty. I'll look it up in a bit (I'm just starting my coffee IV drip) but I think Solas also has words for friend/romance status where he relates he doesn't want the Inquisitor seeing what Solas becomes. 

[Medhia_Nox]

I thing you misunderstand. I don't support Solas's plot to commit genocide because he can't handle the last time he inadvertently committed genocide.

It's not really about erasing his mistakes in the sense of assuaging his own feelings - I just think that he sees restoring his world as the only thing that matters.

 

Which, again, I find to be outrageously arrogant and ignorant of Solas.  It shows an utter lack of self-actualization as he has no empathy for the millions of others that exist on Thedas.  

 

It's has nothing to do with him sitting there twiddling his fingers systematically killing everyone... in some ways it's more sinister.  He simply doesn't care who dies or what is destroyed so long as what Solas wants comes to fruition.  There is nothing noble about this - no matter how much melodrama he drowns his actions in.

 

The ancient Thedas he is trying to return spawned seven figures so powerful that they nearly destroyed the world.  He "accidentally" got rid of them (purposefully, though the means he had to go through seem accidental).  And now he wants to undo that. 

 

Let's say he kills the Evanuris.  Well, all good right?  Not really.  The same world that spawned the Evanuris (and the Forgotten Ones, and the Forbidden Ones) is now back... Solas is a world class moron if he thinks new beings like them won't show up.  Unless he's planning on being a tyrant god himself.  Not something I find unreasonable. Solas believes so completely in his actions that he's uninterested in discussing whether or not they're wrong.  The criticisms in Trespasser that he's willing to listen to are done so with disdain for the Inquisitor's disapproval - but with apathy from the power he now wields.  

 

Anyway - it's hardly worth discussing.  I don't think Bioware is going to do anything more with Solas than try to turn him into some weird "Gandalf"-ish mage mixed with something you'd find in one of Varric's hideous novels.  All melodrama.  

[Almostfaceman]

Anyway - it's hardly worth discussing. 

 

And yet here you are still banging away at your keyboard, repeating yourself ad nauseam. 

 

[Almostfaceman]

Let's say he kills the Evanuris.  Well, all good right?  Not really.  The same world that spawned the Evanuris (and the Forgotten Ones, and the Forbidden Ones) is now back... Solas is a world class moron if he thinks new beings like them won't show up.  Unless he's planning on being a tyrant god himself.  Not something I find unreasonable. Solas believes so completely in his actions that he's uninterested in discussing whether or not they're wrong.  The criticisms in Trespasser that he's willing to listen to are done so with disdain for the Inquisitor's disapproval - but with apathy from the power he now wields.    

 

Every world spawns dangers and people have to fight against them. That's what makes stories interesting. That's what makes real life interesting. The possibility of things going bad isn't a reason to give up and not try again. 

[Almostfaceman]

Which, again, I find to be outrageously arrogant and ignorant of Solas.  

 

Which you say as you speak from a position of ignorance. We don't know everything yet. We don't know how ignorant Solas is until we know what he knows. 

[Macha'Anu]

I loved this.

The more i played the more I started to feel like this too. But im also of a mind that the humans of thedas(and the Qunari) are simply disgusting and wrought with all kinds of evil and corrupt power. and even some elves if you think about it. you got mages that justify bloodletting innocents cause FREEDOM, you got templars and religious people justifying oppresion cause magic is bad mkay and you got elves that will simply kill a human if they see them cause humans hundreds of years ago (ok maybe not tht long ago but you know what i mean) was horrible awful to their people. All of it is in history. Elves have always been seen lesser beings than mabari... Mabari are more respected than elves. But. Because of those years of oppression and slavery, like in real life, all who are alive and are not elven are to blame and or suffer. in DAO people were so busy fighting one another and becoming abominations and assasinating one another to be king that the darkspawn nearly won. They are so fixated on their own power that they literally ignore evil. Even the elves in the forest, their keeper was so worried about his own vendetta that he caused his own clan to be nearly wiped out. simply to punish humans who been dead decades over.

And DA2, regardless of what people thought of the Gameplay, the story itself brings all that into the fold. Mages not caring who they hurt to win, templars so afraid of what they dont understand that they will justify torture and or murder/tranquility just to feel safe.

They are all nutty heh.

It isnt too far fetched Solas sees this and says. My God. These people are beyond saving.

But all the centuries of lonelieness solas has endured. its hard to not feel empathy. and I do see where you see him reaching out only to be shunned away.

Everyone is all RAWR Solas wants to commit genocide but um..... Elves and mages and anyone who supports them have been murdered in droves, imprisoned or shunned away for how many years? is that not genocide? The very people these people are fighting for have been commiting atrocities in the name of whatever god or culture they claim but Solas is the bad guy?

Heck im not sure who the actual villian is in Dragon age.

But I certainly don't Think the end all of villians is Solas. I think its the populace themselves.

The darkspawn and the demons and the nightmares of the fade are all just chess peices. The people are really the whole of all that is bad in the world. I mean the demons only come to play when mages mess with that which they dont truly understand. So its their own fault. But again that is just my opinion. I always RP a Mage who wants freedom but will be damned if I get it by playing nicey nice with demons.