133 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia_Nox]

Every world spawns dangers and people have to fight against them. That's what makes stories interesting. That's what makes real life interesting. The possibility of things going bad isn't a reason to give up and not try again. 

 

Sorry, but this is only said by people that have lived comfortable lives not filled with "dangers to fight against".  If you've ever had real "dangers to fight against" chances are you didn't say "Oh, thankfully that added so much flavor to my life!"  and if you did say that - chances are, what you experienced was just an inconvenience to your luxury... not an actual "danger". 

 

There's a reason why "May you live in interesting times." is a Chinese curse and not a blessing. 

 

As for stories... struggle is put in to be overcome... not endorsed by the protagonist.

[Almostfaceman]

Sorry, but this is only said by people that have lived comfortable lives not filled with "dangers to fight against".  If you've ever had real "dangers to fight against" chances are you didn't say "Oh, thankfully that added so much flavor to my life!"  and if you did say that - chances are, what you experienced was just an inconvenience to your luxury... not an actual "danger". 

 

There's a reason why "May you live in interesting times." is a Chinese curse and not a blessing. 

 

As for stories... struggle is put in to be overcome... not endorsed by the protagonist.

 

Well, you're doing well for speaking for yourself. That's about all you're doing well at in this post. 

 

I'm not going to reveal any personal details on a public message board because I value my privacy, but you have no clue what I have and have not been through. 

 

But yes, there are people who live "comfortable" lives and enjoy reading about adventure and not experiencing it (which goes to my point about what makes stories interesting, which you totally glossed over). There are people who've gone through a lot and enjoy reading about characters they can relate to in some way through the struggles in the stories. 

 

Struggles can take a wide variety of roles in a story. Sometimes they'll be personal for the protagonist and they'll grow stronger or weaker in dealing with them. Sometimes the struggle is to highlight the ability of the protagonist to solve world-ending problems. The varieties are nearly endless, but usually the struggle is present in the story to make the story enjoyable. To add drama. Suspense. Action. 

 

As for "not endorsed by the protagonist" I think Luke Skywalker would disagree with you strongly. It's precisely his struggle with Darth Vader in Empire Strikes Back that keeps Luke from later on giving in to the Dark Side of the Force during his fight with Darth Vader in Return of the Jedi. Luke would "endorse" or find much value in lessons learned from that earlier struggle. 

[Medhia_Nox]

Well, you're doing well for speaking for yourself. That's about all you're doing well at in this post. 

 

I'm not going to reveal any personal details on a public message board because I value my privacy, but you have no clue what I have and have not been through. 

 

But yes, there are people who live "comfortable" lives and enjoy reading about adventure and not experiencing it (which goes to my point about what makes stories interesting, which you totally glossed over). There are people who've gone through a lot and enjoy reading about characters they can relate to in some way through the struggles in the stories. 

 

Struggles can take a wide variety of roles in a story. Sometimes they'll be personal for the protagonist and they'll grow stronger or weaker in dealing with them. Sometimes the struggle is to highlight the ability of the protagonist to solve world-ending problems. The varieties are nearly endless, but usually the struggle is present in the story to make the story enjoyable. To add drama. Suspense. Action. 

 

As for "not endorsed by the protagonist" I think Luke Skywalker would disagree with you strongly. It's precisely his struggle with Darth Vader in Empire Strikes Back that keeps Luke from later on giving in to the Dark Side of the Force during his fight with Darth Vader in Return of the Jedi. Luke would "endorse" or find much value in lessons learned from that earlier struggle. 

 

The fact you call it "adventure" says all I really need to know anyway.  

 

Luke Skywalker is not "thankful" for the Empire... or the war he has to wage... or the fact that his father cuts off his hand... it's precisely because those moments brought him great pain that he grew from them.   You can appreciate that you overcame a struggle without thinking those things are good or that you would happily do them all over again...

 

Which is why so many people say:  "Knowing what I do now... " because if they didn't know they were going to learn from a real struggle, they wouldn't "do it all over again."

 

I'd keep any psycho that prefers "adventure" at arms length... because I've had my fill thanks.  

 

NOTE:  There's also a huge difference between crafting a story with an antagonist and a struggle.... and discussing how I feel about an antagonist and the struggle he causes. 

[Almostfaceman]

Luke Skywalker is not "thankful" for the Empire... or the war he has to wage... or the fact that his father cuts off his hand... it's precisely because those moments brought him great pain that he grew from them.   You can appreciate that you overcame a struggle without thinking those things are good or that you would happily do them all over again...

 

 

Yes, appreciating something is endorsing that it was a valuable thing that happened in your life. If it helped save your life, you can also be "thankful", not that that's what I said. Nor did I imply that an experience one can find value in is one they'd wish to repeat. 

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Which, again, I find to be outrageously arrogant and ignorant of Solas.  It shows an utter lack of self-actualization as he has no empathy for the millions of others that exist on Thedas.  

 

It's has nothing to do with him sitting there twiddling his fingers systematically killing everyone... in some ways it's more sinister.  He simply doesn't care who dies or what is destroyed so long as what Solas wants comes to fruition.  There is nothing noble about this - no matter how much melodrama he drowns his actions in.

 

I don't think its accurate to say Solas has no empathy for those that exist in current Thedas or that he doesn't care about who dies. He does. His stopping of the qunari invasion shows he has empathy for those who currently live. He could have just as easily let Operation Dragonsbreath happen before he claimed final control over all the eluvians, but he didn't.  And his guilt and sadness at the prospect of his plans' consequences shows he cares that people will die. I think its safe to say he has empathy. He cares about whether people will suffer from his plans.

 

 In his mind, though, he has an obligation to fix what he broke and that outweighs any personal feelings he has developed since. He's caught between a rock and a hard place in his head, morally. He sees it as his duty to restore the world's natural order to pre-veil status. And he is currently putting that duty above any love he feels for a Lavellan, kinship for those he's met, or general empathy he has for those in modern Thedas.

 

He's sorry about what he's doing. He's just not (currently) sorry enough to justify stopping.

[Medhia_Nox]

I don't think its accurate to say Solas has no empathy for those that exist in current Thedas or that he doesn't care about who dies. He does. His stopping of the qunari invasion shows he has empathy for those who currently live. He could have just as easily let Operation Dragonsbreath happen before he claimed final control over all the eluvians, but he didn't.  And his guilt and sadness at the prospect of his plans' consequences shows he cares that people will die. I think its safe to say he has empathy. He cares about whether people will suffer from his plans.

 

 In his mind, though, he has an obligation to fix what he broke and that outweighs any personal feelings he has developed since. He's caught between a rock and a hard place in his head, morally. He sees it as his duty to restore the world's natural order to pre-veil status. And he is currently putting that duty above any love he feels for a Lavellan, kinship for those he's met, or general empathy he has for those in modern Thedas.

 

He's sorry about what he's doing. He's just not (currently) sorry enough to justify stopping.

 

And I am not in love with him enough to be okay with it - nor do I find it compelling from a storytelling standpoint.  The first, I feel more strongly about - Solas being a compelling antagonist I've got no stake in.  There's room for a lot of different types of antagonists for the people that prefer their flavor of "evil". 

 

I "get him" - he's not that complex.  If you only knew the irony of me being against someone like Solas.  

 

As for my attitude against Solas in general... it is based off of Inquisition, not at all what he proposes he's going to do.  However, I do expect the worse given the character I feel is presented in Inquisition.

[Reznore57]

Not sure where the Solas wants to save the modern elves is coming from , because he doesn't.

He would say so in Trespasser , even if he wanted to save those , you'd still have the piles of dead humans , dwarves , qunari so that would make his actions more palatable for some , but still horrifying to most people.

 

Then there's the old "I'm all alone in my quest!" , now quick tip if someone has a plan to save people , or even I don't know whales ...you're never all alone.You'll always find another nice soul (or slightly demented sometimes ) who also want to help.

Now of course if by saving you mean bathing the world in blood and the warmth of the raw chaos of the apocalypse , people tends to back away from you slowly.

 

The only ancient elf who we know worked directly for Solas , even decided to backpedal on the whole thing....and that was the type of guy who liked all the scheme of the Dread Wolf and was laughing with a demon he knew would rip the skin from a number of Dalish .

But yeah suddenly he got an epiphany and decided perhaps Solas plan was terrible.

 

And lastly if Solas says to the Inquisitor all his friends will die....well it doesn't bode well for the rest of the world and possible survivors.

The friends of the Inquisitor are among the most capable people of Thedas , Cass , Bull , Sera , Varric etc etc...

If those people can't survive the destruction of the veil , you can only pray dumb luck will save a few.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

And I am not in love with him enough to be okay with it -

 

Wasn't saying you should be. Just saying its inaccurate to say he has no empathy, imo. And accuracy in characterization is important, particularly if you want to save him from himself, like me. Pinpointing his motivations and actual goals is important.

 

That's also why I don't subscribe to the romanticizing of his goals here and pretending that his plans aren't going to kill all the modern elves along with everyone else. He outright says to an elven Inquisitor that every friend and person they've ever known will die if you choose the right dialogue. Maintaining illusions that he's actually going to "uplift" modern elves when he says things to contradict that does no one any favors.

 

And its not as if it would actually matter much to me if his plans did have an exception for elves. It'd still mean all non-elves would die. Varric, Cass, Cullen, Josie, Bull, Dorian, Carver/Bethany, Isabela, not to mention countless unnamed innocents, all dead. Not ok. 

 

But its not ok with Solas either, not really. And that's the important point to me. Death on a mass scale isn't his goal. It is just a side effect of his current plan. And he thinks his plan is the only option he has left. He states that he is not a monster (thus showing a desire not to be one) and that he wishes to be proven wrong. That he is doing this current plan of action out of obligation and his heart isn't in it gives me hope. If we can either come up with a way for him to complete this obligation that doesn't involve mass death, or we can somehow convince him to let go of the guilt driving him, then  maybe he can be stopped without having to kill him.

[Xerrai]

Not sure where the Solas wants to save the modern elves is coming from , because he doesn't.

It most comes from many people believe he was possibly speaking in metaphor when he said "the rebirth of my world means the end of yours" (just bringing magic into the world will uproot faiths, world laws and empires because of the radical change. Thus the "world" as you know it will end). Or because he has expressed interest/care toward the plight of the elves in the modern world. Because some theorize that he views converting the modern elves into something more akin to ancient elves will be his version of 'saving' them.

 

Any number of reasons really, and I can't say with full confidence that they are not founded on a few compelling pieces of evidence. Until the next game comes out we cannot know for sure. There are several debates of who he even considers "his people" (or people valid enough to be part of his 'world of the elves'), and the fact that we can't even come to a general consensus is telling.

 

By this point all we have are assumptions based on how optimistic or pessimistic we are of Solas and his intentions/views. And you know what they say about assuming...

 

The one thing we do know for sure though is that there is going to be ton of death and destruction because of the veil's removal. This will include elves (possibly even ancient elves). There is little doubt of that.

[Reznore57]

It most comes from many people believe he was possibly speaking in metaphor when he said "the rebirth of my world means the end of yours" .

 

Yeah but it would be very dramatic of Solas to use that metaphor like 5 or 6 times , "your world must die" "I'd rather they die in confront' "you'd have to watch your friends die" , "while this world would burn in raw chaos"..."Enjoy your life while time remains...."

 

I mean the dude beats you over the head about the fact he's going to destroy everything and kill a huge number of people , and some manage to go "nah , it was all metaphor".

He says he even walks the path of death or something like that...

[Xerrai]

Yeah but it would be very dramatic of Solas to use that metaphor like 5 or 6 times , "your world must die" "I'd rather they die in confront' "you'd have to watch your friends die" , "while this world would burn in raw chaos"..."Enjoy your life while time remains...."

 

I mean the dude beats you over the head about the fact he's going to destroy everything and kill a huge number of people , and some manage to go "nah , it was all metaphor".

He says he even walks the path of death or something like that...

I know, I know. I was just pointing out their reasoning.

 

The most I can buy with the 'metaphor defense' is the "the birth of my world means the end of yours" + "world burning in the raw chaos". Other than that think he was being dead serious. Kinda hard to deny that he is intending anything but death and destruction given the way he was talking and what he was describing.

 

The ones that take it to the extreme that claim everything he said was a methaphore  do not exactly have the most compelling of arguments, but I can't exactly disprove it either.

 

Imo, just let it be until it is crushed later in game. Or an author tweet. Whichever comes first.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

He states that he is not a monster (thus showing a desire not to be one) and that he wishes to be proven wrong.

Monsters almost never see themselves as monsters. Doesn't mean they aren't. 

He doesn't wish to be proven wrong. He welcomes the chance to be proven wrong. That's not the same thing. Villains often welcome the challenge from the hero, but it doesn't mean the villain wants to fail. 

[Seraphim24]

I don't think its accurate to say Solas has no empathy for those that exist in current Thedas or that he doesn't care about who dies. He does. His stopping of the qunari invasion shows he has empathy for those who currently live. He could have just as easily let Operation Dragonsbreath happen before he claimed final control over all the eluvians, but he didn't.  And his guilt and sadness at the prospect of his plans' consequences shows he cares that people will die. I think its safe to say he has empathy. He cares about whether people will suffer from his plans.

 

 In his mind, though, he has an obligation to fix what he broke and that outweighs any personal feelings he has developed since. He's caught between a rock and a hard place in his head, morally. He sees it as his duty to restore the world's natural order to pre-veil status. And he is currently putting that duty above any love he feels for a Lavellan, kinship for those he's met, or general empathy he has for those in modern Thedas.

 

He's sorry about what he's doing. He's just not (currently) sorry enough to justify stopping.

 

But like who cares about Solas's journey to finally passing 5th grade? 

 

Plenty of people exceeded that overwhelming hurdle ages ago. 

 

There's always this fixation in society on whether a few people "get it" rather than just elevating the people who exceed those people in every respect. 

[DarkAmaranth1966]

Perhaps I take things too literally but, to me it's pretty simple. Solas is an ancient elf, immortal, he was in Uthanera for centuries but now, is out to restore Elvenhan by using the ORB. Gee wiz, but Corypheus is out to restore Tevinter by using the ORB. Same thing, just a difference of opinion as to whom survives the destruction of the veil and who rules Thedas.

 

Two wold be (false) gods with different ideas of which race is greatest, human or elf. Both prideful fools who will destroy the world for their own ends if they are not stopped. in DAI we stop Corypheus but, now we are left with the problem of another would be god trying to do the same thing only this one is a bit more sneaky and subtle in his ways.

[German Soldier]

Every world spawns dangers and people have to fight against them. That's what makes stories interesting. That's what makes real life interesting. The possibility of things going bad isn't a reason to give up and not try again. 

The greatest danger that i have ever fought in my life was a failure in exams,i don't really need hyperbolic dangers to think that my life is interesting.

[Seraphim24]

The greatest danger that i have ever fought in my life was a failure in exams,i don't really need hyperbolic dangers to think that my life is interesting.

 

Yeah really, even the natural world itself (mortality, etc) gives us more than enough danger. Anyone who adds to that because "interesting" is really just a piece of crap at the end of the day. 

[Almostfaceman]

Not sure where the Solas wants to save the modern elves is coming from , because he doesn't.

 

 

Where I'm coming from is in the OP, so I'm not sure why you're not sure of where it's coming from. 

[Almostfaceman]

The greatest danger that i have ever fought in my life was a failure in exams,i don't really need hyperbolic dangers to think that my life is interesting.

 

Nobody said you faced any great dangers or that you wanted to do so. So.... okay thanks for sharing? 

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Monsters almost never see themselves as monsters. Doesn't mean they aren't. 

He doesn't wish to be proven wrong. He welcomes the chance to be proven wrong. That's not the same thing. Villains often welcome the challenge from the hero, but it doesn't mean the villain wants to fail. 

My point about the monster line was that his saying he's not a monster shows that he cares about not being a monster. It shows he doesn't wish to be one. Its a sign of actual internal struggle and possibly an inroad later for the players who'll want to confront him. Whether he's right or not about not being a monster wasn't my point. 

 

And I don't think he was just saying he'd welcome the challenge. He prefaced that sentence with talk about how you had surprised him and proven his assumptions wrong before. If you've befriended him, he's expressed this sentiment constantly throughout the base game, as well.  "You've surpassed my expectations.", "You've shown a wisdom beyond everything I expected.", "You've surprised me." etc.  

 

Point is, you've proven him wrong before, so you can do so again. He knows this and says he welcomes it if you can manage it. Given your history and the context of your relationship with Solas (when you're his friend, anyway), not to mention his tone and expression when he says the line, I don't think it was arrogant villain posturing. I think he was sincere.

[Almostfaceman]

Yeah really, even the natural world itself (mortality, etc) gives us more than enough danger. Anyone who adds to that because "interesting" is really just a piece of crap at the end of the day. 

 

All of these people added danger voluntarily to their lives. These are just a few examples. None of these people are "pieces of crap" and you should refrain from throwing out insults. 

 

"In 1269, Niccolò and Maffeo returned to their families in Venice, meeting young Marco for the first time.[39] In 1271, during the rule of Doge Lorenzo Tiepolo, Marco Polo (at seventeen years of age), his father, and his uncle set off for Asia on the series of adventures that Marco later documented in his book.[41] They returned to Venice in 1295, 24 years later, with many riches and treasures. They had travelled almost 15,000 miles (24,000 km).[36]"

https://en.wikipedia...wiki/Marco_Polo

 

"Robert Craig "Evel" Knievel was an American stunt performer and entertainer. Over his career, he attempted more than 75 ramp-to-ramp motorcycle jumps, and, in 1974, a canyon jump across Snake River Canyon (which failed) in the Skycycle X-2, a steam-powered rocket. During his career he suffered more than 433 bone fractures,[2] earning an entry in the Guinness Book of World Records as the survivor of "most bones broken in a lifetime".[3] Knievel was inducted into the Motorcycle Hall of Fame in 1999.[3]"

https://en.wikipedia...ki/Evel_Knievel

 

"The expedition was commissioned by President Thomas Jefferson shortly after the Louisiana Purchase in 1803, consisting of a select group of U.S. Army volunteers under the command of Captain Meriwether Lewis and his close friend, Second Lieutenant William Clark. Their perilous journey lasted from May 1804 to September 1806. The primary objective was to explore and map the newly acquired territory, find a practical route across the Western half of the continent, and establish an American presence in this territory before Britain and other European powers tried to claim it."

https://en.wikipedia...lark_Expedition

[Almostfaceman]

Almostfaceman, on 10 May 2016 - 7:16 PM, said:

Every world spawns dangers and people have to fight against them. That's what makes stories interesting. That's what makes real life interesting. The possibility of things going bad isn't a reason to give up and not try again. 

 

 

Sorry, but this is only said by people that have lived comfortable lives not filled with "dangers to fight against".  If you've ever had real "dangers to fight against" chances are you didn't say "Oh, thankfully that added so much flavor to my life!"  and if you did say that - chances are, what you experienced was just an inconvenience to your luxury... not an actual "danger". 

 

There's a reason why "May you live in interesting times." is a Chinese curse and not a blessing. 

 

As for stories... struggle is put in to be overcome... not endorsed by the protagonist.

 

I find it interesting that you latched onto my "that's what makes real life interesting" comment to obfuscate my point about drama in stories. And it is drama in stories that makes them interesting. If you don't have a conflict, the vast majority of stories disappear. It's an essential ingredient. 

 

And the possibility of things going bad isn't always a reason to give up and stop trying to succeed. The ability to overcome obstacles is actually a valued trait in humanity and in individuals. It's a valued trait in protagonists and antagonists. 

[IllustriousT]

Shame on us for being interesting...

 

 

I wonder if Solas would go skydiving?

[Almostfaceman]

The fact you call it "adventure" says all I really need to know anyway.  

 

Why? It's just a generic word for 

 

a :  an undertaking usually involving danger and unknown risks

b :  the encountering of risks

 

http://www.merriam-w...onary/adventure

 

Here you can see a lot of examples of the word being used in sentences. 

 

http://sentence.your....com/adventures

[Seraphim24]

All of these people added danger voluntarily to their lives. These are just a few examples. None of these people are "pieces of crap" and you should refrain from throwing out insults. 

 

"In 1269, Niccolò and Maffeo returned to their families in Venice, meeting young Marco for the first time.[39] In 1271, during the rule of Doge Lorenzo Tiepolo, Marco Polo (at seventeen years of age), his father, and his uncle set off for Asia on the series of adventures that Marco later documented in his book.[41] They returned to Venice in 1295, 24 years later, with many riches and treasures. They had travelled almost 15,000 miles (24,000 km).[36]"

https://en.wikipedia...wiki/Marco_Polo

 

"Robert Craig "Evel" Knievel was an American stunt performer and entertainer. Over his career, he attempted more than 75 ramp-to-ramp motorcycle jumps, and, in 1974, a canyon jump across Snake River Canyon (which failed) in the Skycycle X-2, a steam-powered rocket. During his career he suffered more than 433 bone fractures,[2] earning an entry in the Guinness Book of World Records as the survivor of "most bones broken in a lifetime".[3] Knievel was inducted into the Motorcycle Hall of Fame in 1999.[3]"

https://en.wikipedia...ki/Evel_Knievel

 

"The expedition was commissioned by President Thomas Jefferson shortly after the Louisiana Purchase in 1803, consisting of a select group of U.S. Army volunteers under the command of Captain Meriwether Lewis and his close friend, Second Lieutenant William Clark. Their perilous journey lasted from May 1804 to September 1806. The primary objective was to explore and map the newly acquired territory, find a practical route across the Western half of the continent, and establish an American presence in this territory before Britain and other European powers tried to claim it."

https://en.wikipedia...lark_Expedition

 

Examples are flawed because none of them really involve other people. 

 

The analogy would be Evil Canievel saying "Daredevil jumping is fun!" and then saying "Now you do it!" 

 

If someone wants to go jumping out of plane that's their business, if someone wants to make everyone jump out of a plane because it'll "spice up our lives" then I stand by my statement of them being a piece of crap. 

 

A "Society" has no place dealing with people's outlier extreme visions of good and bad. 

 

Also Marco Pollo wandering around hardly qualifies as "increasing the danger," the same for Lewis and Clark really.

[Almostfaceman]

Examples are flawed because none of them really involve other people. 

 

The analogy would be Evil Canievel saying "Daredevil jumping is fun!" and then saying "Now you do it!" 

 

If someone wants to go jumping out of plane that's their business, if someone wants to make everyone jump out of a plane because it'll "spice up our lives" then I stand by my statement of them being a piece of crap. 

 

I don't even know who you're arguing with now. All I said was drama exists in stories and in real life and that it makes life and stories interesting. People are drawn to interesting characters in both fictional stories and history. 

 

And this all began when I responded to Medhia_Nox saying "Let's say he kills the Evanuris.  Well, all good right?  Not really.  The same world that spawned the Evanuris (and the Forgotten Ones, and the Forbidden Ones) is now back... Solas is a world class moron if he thinks new beings like them won't show up."

 

The entire argument that "well, don't try because maybe the world will get crappy again" is a poor argument.

 

Then Medhia_Nox started to make the argument about me or individuals who agree with me when I said "Every world spawns dangers and people have to fight against them. That's what makes stories interesting. That's what makes real life interesting" 

 

He/she said "Sorry, but this is only said by people that have lived comfortable lives not filled with "dangers to fight against".  If you've ever had real "dangers to fight against" chances are you didn't say "Oh, thankfully that added so much flavor to my life!"  and if you did say that - chances are, what you experienced was just an inconvenience to your luxury... not an actual "danger"."

 

So at that point the conversation was about people who think adventures in life make it interesting. That's where German Soldier weighed in and you weighed in. That's what you commented on, and now you're trying to make it about something regarding Solas dragging other people into his adventure. We weren't discussing that, at all. 

 

To respond to THAT argument I'd say yeah, it's a crappy thing for him to do, based on the information we have right now. Based on what we know right now, he should be stopped, either by killing him or convincing him to not go through with his plan. 

 

Maybe we'll find out the situation is more interesting. Bioware didn't let us stop him and they didn't reveal everything about his motivations/operations or even everything about what the Veil does to Thedas and... well... there are a lot of mysteries that may all be tied into what's going on with Solas. We'll see.