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[Vapaa]

Would the planet, overall, be better off if humanity as it is now, went extinct? Probably.
Would the planet, overall, be better off if humanity learned to play nice; if we further evolved socially or mentally? Probably.

What is even the meaning of "better of" in the point of view of a planet ? There's no good, bad, better or worse in nature, those are human inventions, the planet doesn't care, it's not sentient, and as you said, it'll be gone in 5 billion years, and what is 5 billion years in the grand scheme of things ?

[Pasquale1234]

But then how would it be handled? It requires the other party to flirt with the PC, at which point the PC can either respond positively, which warms up the romance, or turn them down, which ends the romance.

In the case of Anders, a nicer way to turn him down would have been very welcome.
 

Add to that that there is very little complaints about Isabella very directly flirting wtih Hawke's of both genders.

There were enough that a change was made in a patch. At the end of her recruitment mission, Isabela makes a very flirtatious comment, and Hawke initially reacted with a facial expression that I read as amusement, but others apparently read as an expression of sexual interest. That expression was removed in a patch.

Note that the complaint was not about Isabela's behavior, but Hawke's response.
 

Maybe? Like in DAI? But there's a meaningful distinction between flirting that leads somewhere (whether you're aware of it or not, like Alistair and Leliana in DAO) and flirting which goes nowhere unless you click on the giant glowing neon sign at the end. Which I think is the case with most of Bioware's characters. Sometimes people flirt and I'd prefer they have some semblance of autonomy in this regard rather than hoarding action and reaction all into the player's sphere. Cortez, specifically, who this conversation was about is an example of such. He flirts but it goes nowhere unless you want it to. Vega too, pretty sure you can display disinterest/displeasure whenever he flirts as well. Traynor doesn't go anywhere either unless you choose to enter the shower with her. etc.

I don't expect to have any control over the behavior of NPCs. I do expect to be able to decide when my character will flirt and with whom.

Try to start a friendly conversation with Jacob in ME2, and Shepard turns into a sultry sexpot.

As for Vega - uh, no. In both cases, they are autodialogue that I've never found a way to avoid - other than to avoid the conversations completely.

RE the cabin conversation - at the end, Shepard says the bed is harder than it looks, and Vega puts up his arms and says he'll take her word for it, as if rejecting a proposition. My take-away from that is that Vega thinks he's so OTT hot, that even a lifelong lesbian currently in a relationship would cheat on her mate for summa dat.

RE the tattoo conversation - her parting comment asks him when he's going to make good on all the flirting - which is an expression of sexual interest on her part. The writers deprived me of the opportunity to play a character who would not be sexually interested in Vega.

And - no, I've never allowed him to call her Lola.

[Steelcan]

pretty sure Male Shep says the same thing about the bed, just throwing that out there

[Pasquale1234]

pretty sure Male Shep says the same thing about the bed, just throwing that out there

Does Vega interpret that as a proposition with male Shep?

Either way, it's Vega's (mis)interpretation, not really Shepard's comment.

[Steelcan]

Does Vega interpret that as a proposition with male Shep?

Either way, it's Vega's (mis)interpretation, not really Shepard's comment.

iirc he kinda looks at him like he has an extra head

[KaiserShep]

Does Vega interpret that as a proposition with male Shep?Either way, it's Vega's (mis)interpretation, not really Shepard's comment.

I like Vega's response to the FemShep version.

"I'm going I'm going."

[Ahglock]

Does Vega interpret that as a proposition with male Shep?

Either way, it's Vega's (mis)interpretation, not really Shepard's comment.

I think so. I took it the same way as you like they were implying my male Shep was flirting with Vega or at least he took it that way. As nothing could happen it just came across as a awkward misunderstanding. Though my guess is they were shooting for a metaphor on weight of command or something I don't fully remember the scene but the acting and expressions on vega came across differently.

[Chealec]

What is even the meaning of "better of" in the point of view of a planet ? There's no good, bad, better or worse in nature, those are human inventions, the planet doesn't care, it's not sentient, and as you said, it'll be gone in 5 billion years, and what is 5 billion years in the grand scheme of things ?

 

Better from the perspective of everything currently living on the planet; well apart from humans in premise 1 as that supposes we'd be wiped out - I thought it was self-evident.

 

... but in the grand scheme of things, yeah, it makes absolutely no odds.

[Fredward]

RE the tattoo conversation - her parting comment asks him when he's going to make good on all the flirting - which is an expression of sexual interest on her part. The writers deprived me of the opportunity to play a character who would not be sexually interested in Vega.

 

Based off your interpretation, to me that scene was Shepard making Vega squirm. And it worked.
 

[Shechinah]

I'd have preferred it if Vega had used "Loca" rather than "Lola" as a nickname for female Shepard. Not only do I like the former far more but it works better as a nickname because the latter is a name so it feels, to me, more like he is intentionally referring to my Shepard by the wrong name or even trying to rename her both of which I dislike.

 

It would not even be such a bother to me if Shepard had been able to decide whether or not they wanted him to call them by a nickname or if they'd been able to return the favor by naming him something he either liked or disliked.

[KaiserShep]

I agree. I guess it's just that the feminine version of loco is used far less and might not gel with some people.

[Shechinah]

I agree. I guess it's just that the feminine version of loco is used far less and might not gel with some people.

 

It's just wierd and it would apply the same, to me, if Vega decided to use "Louis" as a nickname to refer to male Shepard by. 

 

Additionally, "Loco" or "Loca" also fits better for Shepard because they have canonically done some things many would consider crazy which I hope is the reason Vega choose that nickname because saying Shepard has a crazy look or is crazy... can be taken the wrong way especially given all of the times where what Shepard has said has been called into question.
 

[AlanC9]

At the end of her recruitment mission, Isabela makes a very flirtatious comment, and Hawke initially reacted with a facial expression that I read as amusement, but others apparently read as an expression of sexual interest. That expression was removed in a patch.

So I suppose an early video would have the original expression. Any idea which patch changes this?

[AlanC9]

I agree. I guess it's just that the feminine version of loco is used far less and might not gel with some people.

All it brings to mind for me is Ricky Martin.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

It's just wierd and it would apply the same, to me, if Vega decided to use "Louis" as a nickname to refer to male Shepard by.

Additionally, "Loco" or "Loca" also fits better for Shepard because they have canonically done some things many would consider crazy which I hope is the reason Vega choose that nickname because saying Shepard has a crazy look or is crazy... can be taken the wrong way especially given all of the times where what Shepard has said has been called into question.

I was surprised to find it want loca actually. Seems like an obvious choice given Loco for maleshep.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

So I suppose an early video would have the original expression. Any idea which patch changes this?

The demo actually made it come across stronger than it did in game. Maybe that was the original scene. I took it as them tweaking it in the demo to suck in male players. Hey buy our game and you can get it on with this sexy pirate. But then I'm a cynical old man.

[Pasquale1234]

So I suppose an early video would have the original expression. Any idea which patch changes this?

No, I don't know which patch it was - I just know that it disappeared at some point, after I'd downloaded some patches.

A quick search of the first few pages of an old thread John Epler started to talk about cinematics has a few references:

http://forum.bioware...-2#entry6521910

Question though- are the cinematic designers like yourself given free reign to do the actual facial animations in the scenes or do the writers sort of tell you what ones should be associated with certain lines? I haven't played DA2 in a while, but the one Hawke facial expression moment that bugged me was after you meet Isabela and she makes some attempted sexy remark at Hawke, to which Hawke always gives a subtle cocked eyebrow plus smirk. Annoying.

And from what I remember, I'd say that's a fairly accurate description. As I mentioned before, I read it as amusement and perhaps surprise.

http://forum.bioware...-3#entry6530145

Oh, and the fixed reaction to Isabela's suggestion in the Chantry annoyed me too. I don't care that she (or any other NPC) is flirting or saying something - as long as my character doesn't have a fixed reaction.

http://forum.bioware...-4#entry6540296

1. The only reaction in a cinematic that ever really took me out of the character was Hawke's little smirk after Isabela hits on him/her after her recruit quest is done. Only one of my Hawkes has ever been anything even resembling amused/interested at that point.

I believe it had been removed, though, by the time Epler started that thread, as this is post #10 of that thread:
 

I felt some cinematics were too inappropriately neutral, e.g. Hawke’s reaction to Isabela at the end of Fools Rush In, i.e. his facial reaction to her sexual innuendo dialogue in the Chantry. Perhaps this was to leave multiple player responses open – not everyone had the hots for Isabela – but the end result felt near expressionless. For all the effort that goes into cinematics, and all the goodness they bring to Dragon Age, it seems like such a waste.

Since it was patched, Hawke doesn't really react to Isabela's proposition.

[Pasquale1234]

I like Vega's response to the FemShep version.

"I'm going I'm going."

Some FemSheps, apparently. I'd never seen that version until I looked at some youtubes of that conversation today.

[Lady Artifice]

I thought the Lola nickname was cute, and that the flirting was platonic and harmless. Vega never really seemed to me to believe Shepard was into him. He's taken terribly off guard by a genuine overture.

 

I've also just always appreciated the ways Bioware makes male and female playthroughs different, though. I like it when characters react to different genders differently.

[Pasquale1234]

I thought the Lola nickname was cute, and that the flirting was platonic and harmless. Vega never really seemed to me to believe Shepard was into him. He's taken terribly off guard by a genuine overture.
 
I've also just always appreciated the ways Bioware makes male and female playthroughs different, though. I like it when characters react to different genders differently.

I suppose it works pretty well if you're looking at the world through cisgendered, heteronormative, (non-a, non-demi) sexual glasses.

It doesn't always work quite so well if your lenses (or the character you thought you were playing) come in any other shade.

It's one of the many issues that comes with the flagrant abuse of autodialogue. I learned to ignore most of it.

[JosieRevisited]

I'm not buying that the whole issue was just with how Hawke responded to any given dialogue bit. Perhaps they dumped the facial expression in the Isabela scene because it was over the top, but the stuff with Anders? All those threads said pretty clearly one thing: I don't like a bro hitting on my bro, bro. David Gaider's response was excellent and classic, but afterward parts of the fanbase made the entire environment so toxic that a lot of writers that used to talk to us completely shut down their lines of communication. We lost something great not because of what BioWare *did*, but because the community is so immature that they can't just click the "no" response and move on. It has to be a whole big thing for content that is completely optional and inconsequential to how the main story plays out. 

 

No, it's definitely something else. It's not unlike this thread, actually, and one other thread about romances that is on the front page. There's something particularly threatening about this specific type of relationship and it's the one that keeps getting mentioned over and over again. 

 

What exactly do you guys want them to do and in what way will this enrich the experience? From where I sit, it's not the end of the world to have to turn down an NPC because my PC is already interested in someone else or just doesn't swing that way. Get a little perspective and stop feeling so threatened. 

[Lady Artifice]

I suppose it works pretty well if you're looking at the world through cisgendered, heteronormative, (non-a, non-demi) sexual glasses.

It doesn't always work quite so well if your lenses (or the character you thought you were playing) come in any other shade.

It's one of the many issues that comes with the flagrant abuse of autodialogue. I learned to ignore most of it.

 

Hey, hang on. That's kind of unfair. I work very hard at trying to look at things from different perspectives. 

 

I'm not buying that the whole issue was just with how Hawke responded to any given dialogue bit. Perhaps they dumped the facial expression in the Isabela scene because it was over the top, but the stuff with Anders? All those threads said pretty clearly one thing: I don't like a bro hitting on my bro, bro. David Gaider's response was excellent and classic, but afterward parts of the fanbase made the entire environment so toxic that a lot of writers that used to talk to us completely shut down their lines of communication. We lost something great not because of what BioWare *did*, but because the community is so immature that they can't just click the "no" response and move on. It has to be a whole big thing for content that is completely optional and inconsequential to how the main story plays out. 

 

No, it's definitely something else. It's not unlike this thread, actually, and one other thread about romances that is on the front page. There's something particularly threatening about this specific type of relationship and it's the one that keeps getting mentioned over and over again. 

 

What exactly do you guys want them to do and in what way will this enrich the experience? From where I sit, it's not the end of the world to have to turn down an NPC because my PC is already interested in someone else or just doesn't swing that way. Get a little perspective and stop feeling so threatened. 

 

Except I'm a straight woman, often playing a straight female character, and I rather like flirtacious male characters. I don't think anyone in particular is dismissing the idea that the discomfort with gay content was a big source of a lot of the outrage, but I can safely promise that there are exceptions. I like that Anders makes an overture, I just don't like that my character can't offer friendship or anything kinder than, "This is strictly professional."

[Hiemoth]

I'm not following. I was saying to handle it by giving the player cues for when to flirt, not the npc.

In Isabela's case it was entirely different. You can choose to respond positively negatively or not at all. In Anders case you were presented with a heart and a broken heart, nothing else. To a new player it looks like you have to either enter a romance or reject a romance, permanently for all you know at that point.

I never had any flirty scenes with Fenris, and as you noted Noone of either gender complained about Isabela. It's almost as if the gender thing wasn't really the issue.

 

But my argument wasn't about what should be done, where I actually disagree, but rather what was done. They decided to have a player character proposition the PC, that is what happened, so at that moment what other reaction could there have been to either accept the proposition, leading to the romance, or turn Anders down, with the broken heart. The moment they went with that decision there was no other way to react while your point, as far as I can understand it, is that there was no other way to react. However, isn't any other way reacting in that situation basically turning the other person down? Besides, on the comment on the new players, isn't that a bit invalid as that holds true for every interaction. A new player wouldn't know that if they choose not to flirt with Merrill the first time, who is really eager to turn up at Hawke's home after even one flirt if I recall correctly, will they have another opportunity.

 

As for Fenris, you probably had the flirty scenes some complain about even in this thread, just didn't register them, as the core scene is literally the first Fenris scene. As for Anders proposition scene, your argument requires to willfully ignore the heavy focus on male Hawke's being hit on by Anders in that very discussion. Hence my example of no complaints about Isabella hitting on anyone, as you yourself agreed to.

[Shechinah]

I suppose it works pretty well if you're looking at the world through cisgendered, heteronormative, (non-a, non-demi) sexual glasses.

It doesn't always work quite so well if your lenses (or the character you thought you were playing) come in any other shade.

It's one of the many issues that comes with the flagrant abuse of autodialogue. I learned to ignore most of it.

 

In my opinion, that's not only an unnecessarily rude way of phrasing your post but also extrodinarily presumptuous as there are people who like the nickname but look at it and the world through glasses that are none of the things you've mentioned.
 

[Pasquale1234]

Hey, hang on. That's kind of unfair. I work very hard at trying to look at things from different perspectives.

I don't think I said anything unfair or accusatory in any way. In fact, I did my best to avoid it.

Unprompted flirting and different gender treatment feels very different from different points of view.

In order to create differentiated gender treatment, writers have to make some assumptions about gender roles, sexuality, and whatnot - which do not apply to all players or Shepards.
 

Except I'm a straight woman, often playing a straight female character, and I rather like flirtacious male characters.

I'm fine with flirtatious NPCs, but would prefer to have a choice in how my character responds to them.
 

In my opinion, that's not only an unnecessarily rude way of phrasing your post but also extrodinarily presumptuous as there are people who like the nickname but look at it and the world through glasses that are none of the things you've mentioned.

Then you read some things into my post that were not there and not intended. Also - I don't care about the nickname. I was responding to other comments about treating genders differently.