617 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

Jesus. How does anyone read a script about this - or see the final product - and think "Yup, this is a thing we should release publicly".

cause the roles aren't reversed

[vbibbi]

Do we know how many female writers were involved in the ME trilogy? Or are working on ME:A? I'm not claiming that having more female writers would eliminate this kind of stuff, but more diversity in staff can't hurt. The only big names I know of from ME are all straight white dudes. DA has more recognizable female writers.

[Steelcan]

Do we know how many female writers were involved in the ME trilogy? Or are working on ME:A? I'm not claiming that having more female writers would eliminate this kind of stuff, but more diversity in staff can't hurt. The only big names I know of from ME are all straight white dudes. DA has more recognizable female writers.

"I'm not gonna say that the writing in this was bad because there isn't some arbitrary percentage of women on the writing team, instead I'm gonna imply its because there's something wrong with being straight white and make"

[daveliam]

"I'm not gonna say that the writing in this was bad because there isn't some arbitrary percentage of women on the writing team, instead I'm gonna imply its because there's something wrong with being straight white and make"

 

Do you also think that the red Starbucks cups are part of a 'war on Christmas'?  Because that's the same kind of logic.

 

Vbibbi specifically says that having women would increase diversity and 'having diversity can't hurt'.  How you go from that to "there's something wrong with being straight white and male" is questionable.

 

C'mon, Steelcan, I expect better from you, man.

[Steelcan]

Do you also think that the red Starbucks cups are part of a 'war on Christmas'?  Because that's the same kind of logic.

 

Vbibbi specifically says that having women would increase diversity and 'having diversity can't hurt'.  How you go from that to "there's something wrong with being straight white and male" is questionable.

 

C'mon, Steelcan, I expect better from you, man.

I couldn't care less about Starbucks though, nasty overprice coffee >.>

 

My specific complaint is with

 

The only big names I know of from ME are all straight white dudes. DA has more recognizable female writers.

and the implications that because the ME team doesn't have recognizable female writers, despite very much having female writers, the problem with their writing ability stems from the fact that they are straight white and male, and not from mere ignorance or incompetence

[Pasquale1234]

I think that's a false dichotomy.

Not exactly. When I wrote it, I recognized the range - but that still doesn't invalidate the example I chose to use.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the concept of platonic flirting (which you brought up) - because in my mind, the very nature of flirting is not platonic, though there are other forms of teasing that can be.
 

Ryan Murphy is gay, but I don't think anyone who's watched anything he's ever written could reasonably claim he's revolted by the female body. In the newest season of AHS there's even a gay character who talks about appreciating female beauty and femininity, but makes it clear that he doesn't, can't, feel anything sexual for them. There are a few gay artists I could think of who love drawing women.

I've always considered eye candy to be just that - something nice to look at, period. Some forms of eye candy will be sexually attractive to some people, but it doesn't have to be. You can appreciate form without having any interest in any particular function.
 

I just don't think it's one or the other. Some people just think flirting is fun, with no strings or deeper implications attached.

Yeah, I get that, but other people are uncomfortable with it or just really don't like it for whatever reason (like finding it insincere or outright disingenuous). And though I completely support PC flirting in games, I don't think it should be happening without player input / consent.

[daveliam]

I couldn't care less about Starbucks though, nasty overprice coffee >.>

 

My specific complaint is with

 

and the implications that because the ME team doesn't have recognizable female writers, despite very much having female writers, the problem with their writing ability stems from the fact that they are straight white and male, and not from mere ignorance or incompetence

 

Fair enough, but I don't think that his/her point is invalid.  Having more diversity on staff simply allows more variation in the feedback that might prevent future foot-in-mouth moments that arise (whether they arise because the speaker is ignorant or incompetent or something else).

[Steelcan]

Fair enough, but I don't think that his/her point is invalid.  Having more diversity on staff simply allows more variation in the feedback that might prevent future foot-in-mouth moments that arise (whether they arise because the speaker is ignorant or incompetent or something else).

I'd argue that in order to get real variation in feedback they'd ideological diversity more than gender or racial

[FKA_Servo]

I'd argue that in order to get real variation in feedback they'd ideological diversity more than gender or racial

 

I see this argument a lot, but I can't shake the notion that those things are inextricable. I think ideological diversity naturally follows right behind actual diversity. I mean, would you say that gender, or race, or orientation, or any other number of similar factors don't have a profound effect on one's perspective?

[daveliam]

I'd argue that in order to get real variation in feedback they'd ideological diversity more than gender or racial

 

Very true.  But racial and gender variation does add various perspectives.  There's no real refute that men and women have different experiences in the same settings (not always, mind you, but enough for it to be thing), so it makes sense that a man and a woman who have similar backgrounds and interests might see things differently because of their experiences. 

 

It's this knee-jerk internet reaction where you can't ask for diversity without it being a perceived attack on straight white males.  I find it tiring.  That's all.

 

Had s/he said, "Well if the ME stopped hiring straight white men....", then I'd agree with you.

[Steelcan]

I see this argument a lot, but I can't shake the notion that those things are inextricable. I can't imagine gender, or race, or orientation, or any other number of similar factors not having a profound effect on one's perspective. In light of that, ideological diversity follows right behind actual diversity.

I'd counter that there's likely very little that most of the BioWare writers disagree on in terms of politics and whatnot.

 

Unless they are going to start hiring writers from nations outside the western world they likely aren't going to end up bringing in a lot of new perspectives honestly.  Given how sensitive they strive to be in regards to normally suppressed viewpoints such as women and minorities.  I don't think there'd be a significant difference in their ability to portray differing viewpoints if they just cloned Patrick Weekes and had 6 of him on the writing staff as opposed to hiring other genders and races.

[Master Warder Z_]

I'd argue that in order to get real variation in feedback they'd ideological diversity more than gender or racial

 

Seriously, they should hire me.

 

I am very ideological diverse likely compared to most of their writers.

[Steelcan]

Very true.  But racial and gender variation does add various perspectives.  There's no real refute that men and women have different experiences in the same settings (not always, mind you, but enough for it to be thing), so it makes sense that a man and a woman who have similar backgrounds and interests might see things differently because of their experiences. 

 

It's this knee-jerk internet reaction where you can't ask for diversity without it being a perceived attack on straight white males.  I find it tiring.  That's all.

 

Had s/he said, "Well if the ME stopped hiring straight white men....", then I'd agree with you.

let me put it this way, unless the stories BioWare are going to tell are going to start telling are dealing explicitly with material where minority or female writers would have direct first hand experience, such as say modern versions of racial discrimination as seen in the post-Jim Crow south, or the perspectives of women that are often sidelined in the 21st century I don't see much of a difference between the writers they already have and those other varieties that are proposed.

[vbibbi]

 

My specific complaint is with

 

and the implications that because the ME team doesn't have recognizable female writers, despite very much having female writers, the problem with their writing ability stems from the fact that they are straight white and male, and not from mere ignorance or incompetence

So why can't you just answer my question, since I legitimately don't know the writing staff of ME, as you apparently do? As daveliam says, I am not claiming anything, I am asking a question, which you immediately took as an attack.

[Master Warder Z_]

let me put it this way, unless the stories BioWare are going to tell are going to start telling are dealing explicitly with material where minority or female writers would have direct first hand experience, such as say modern versions of racial discrimination as seen in the post-Jim Crow south, or the perspectives of women that are often sidelined in the 21st century I don't see much of a difference between the writers they already have and those other varieties that are proposed.

 

Personally I think that they should look to former soldiers of Biafra and Nigeria from their little conflict a few decades back, they'd all be well into their middle age now even if they had been teens at the time, having conversed with a few I'd say that the perspective of conflict from a losing successor state in the modern age, would give them a new insight to the actuality of warfare.

 

Something they desperately need.

 

Or ya know hire me.

[Han Shot First]

Mass Effect 3 had at least one female writer. Sylvia Feketekuty wrote Liara and a couple of the missions on Rannoch, IIRC. Not sure if she was still around for the Citadel DLC.

 

At some point she was moved over to Dragon Age: Inquisition, but I'm not sure when that happened.

[Nattfare]

Es tut mir leid

 

Yeah it's terrible, no wonder I can't sleep at nights.

[Evamitchelle]

Credits for ME1 and ME2 don't list any female writers, though Karin Weekes is an editor for ME2.

[vbibbi]

I'd counter that there's likely very little that most of the BioWare writers disagree on in terms of politics and whatnot.

 

Unless they are going to start hiring writers from nations outside the western world they likely aren't going to end up bringing in a lot of new perspectives honestly.  Given how sensitive they strive to be in regards to normally suppressed viewpoints such as women and minorities.  I don't think there'd be a significant difference in their ability to portray differing viewpoints if they just cloned Patrick Weekes and had 6 of him on the writing staff as opposed to hiring other genders and races.

 

let me put it this way, unless the stories BioWare are going to tell are going to start telling are dealing explicitly with material where minority or female writers would have direct first hand experience, such as say modern versions of racial discrimination as seen in the post-Jim Crow south, or the perspectives of women that are often sidelined in the 21st century I don't see much of a difference between the writers they already have and those other varieties that are proposed.

Okay in this I will actually strongly disagree with you. It is very naive of you to say that anyone with a similar political mindset will produce the same writing, regardless of gender, race and ethnicity, or sexuality. First of all, I don't know how you can reach the conclusion that everyone at Bioware has similar thoughts on politics. If a hypothetical employee was strongly against Bioware's stance on something, are they automatically going to quit their job and sit on unemployment until they find a new company whose politics they agree with? Most likely not, this is the real world and we're not going to quit jobs so easily.

 

Second, I am going to make an assumption based on your comments, which I know I really shouldn't, but whatever. Based on your knee-jerk reaction to my first post, and then these subsequent posts, I am going to assume you are a straight white male. If you are not, I apologize for the assumption. If you are, I am not saying anything against you personally, or against straight while males. There is nothing inherently better or worse about SWMs.

 

SWMs do enjoy more privileges in Western society, however, and ignoring those privileges is one of those privileges. If you honestly think that a woman, regardless of race or ethnicity or sexuality, is not going to have a different viewpoint than a SWM, even if they have similar political leanings, then you are idealistic, willfully ignorant, or sheltered.

 

If you honestly think that someone of a non-caucasian appearance is going to have the same outlook on life as a caucasian, the same applies. And so forth with differing sexualities, other non-majority groups etc. etc.

 

I can guarantee that any of my female friends who had seen that scene with fem!Shep and Vega would have been horrified and called Bioware sexist for the quasi-date rape of that scene. And they are probably of similar general political thought as much of Bioware, as you would have it. The impression I have of this scene is that it's a "funny" scene because Vega is a man so it can't be rape, Shepard is a woman so it can't be rape, it was just a "silly" scene added to the overall humor of Citadel and no one thought more of it.

 

I am a white gay male. I enjoy a lot of the privileges of being white and male, so I can't begin to pretend to understand the viewpoint of a female or non-white person. But in my own experiences, I can at least claim to know the different viewpoint of someone of a minority sexuality, and this does affect my outlook on the world, regardless of my politics. Every time that I see a straight couple expressing PDA by simply holding hands or a quick kiss, I can be reminded that in their place, I would first make sure I am in a safe area where people aren't going to jeer or stare at me for holding my boyfriend's hand. This is just one example of how due to my identity, I have a different outlook on the world than any of the six cloned Patrick Weekes will, even if we agree on a lot of societal and political issues.

 

/end rant

[Han Shot First]

Credits for ME1 and ME2 don't list any female writers, though Karin Weekes is an editor for ME2.

 

Sylvia Feketekuty wrote part of Lair of the Shadow Broker, but I think you're right in there not being any female writers involved in writing the base game.

[FKA_Servo]

This thread might have just turned into a Bat signal for a certain segment of the BSN, and might be living on borrowed time.

[Master Warder Z_]

Did the term straight white male really get dropped?

 

._.

 

I hate this generation.

[Sidney]

Fair enough, but I don't think that his/her point is invalid.  Having more diversity on staff simply allows more variation in the feedback that might prevent future foot-in-mouth moments that arise (whether they arise because the speaker is ignorant or incompetent or something else).

The badly flawed notion that women write better women or men write better men is appalling. Give me 5 talented people and I don't care what race/gender/religion whatever they are and they will do better than a diverse cast of the mediocre. Insert the straw man here that you aren't asking for mediocre but for talented and diverse and I'll tell you what matters isn't the diversity but the talent.

[Han Shot First]

This thread might have just turned into a Bat signal for a certain segment of the BSN, and might be living on borrowed time.

 

I'll start on the popcorn.

[Master Warder Z_]

The badly flawed notion that women write better women or men write better men is appalling. Give me 5 talented people and I don't care what race/gender/religion whatever they are and they will do better than a diverse cast of the mediocre. Insert the straw man here that you aren't asking for mediocre but for talented and diverse and I'll tell you what matters isn't the diversity but the talent.

 

Eh...fair enough.