617 réponses à ce sujet

[FKA_Servo]

Insert the straw man here that you aren't asking for mediocre but for talented and diverse and I'll tell you what matters isn't the diversity but the talent.

 

How on earth is that a straw man?

[Evamitchelle]

ME3 credits list Sylvia Feketekuty, Ann Lemay and Cathleen Rootsaert. Karin Weekes is an editor as well. Compared to the DA team it's kind of hard to find who wrote who exactly, but I'm pretty sure Cathleen Rootsaert wrote Kaidan, and I know Ann Lemay wrote Nyreen in the Omega DLC. 

 

For the DLC:

Leviathan: Cathleen Rootsaert.

Omega: Ann Lemay. 

Citadel: Cathleen Rootsaert and Brianne Battye (wrote Cullen in DAI). 

Modifié par Evamitchelle, 09 décembre 2015 - 05:26 .

[AlanC9]

For a second I thought we were just going to play tennis, but I think you just hit the ball out of the court.

He knocked the ball out of the park, yep, but you were playing baseball.

But really, I'm just here to congratulate you for keeping this thread going until ignition point.

[Steelcan]

Okay in this I will actually strongly disagree with you. It is very naive of you to say that anyone with a similar political mindset will produce the same writing, regardless of gender, race and ethnicity, or sexuality. First of all, I don't know how you can reach the conclusion that everyone at Bioware has similar thoughts on politics. If a hypothetical employee was strongly against Bioware's stance on something, are they automatically going to quit their job and sit on unemployment until they find a new company whose politics they agree with? Most likely not, this is the real world and we're not going to quit jobs so easily.

 

Second, I am going to make an assumption based on your comments, which I know I really shouldn't, but whatever. Based on your knee-jerk reaction to my first post, and then these subsequent posts, I am going to assume you are a straight white male. If you are not, I apologize for the assumption. If you are, I am not saying anything against you personally, or against straight while males. There is nothing inherently better or worse about SWMs.

 

SWMs do enjoy more privileges in Western society, however, and ignoring those privileges is one of those privileges. If you honestly think that a woman, regardless of race or ethnicity or sexuality, is not going to have a different viewpoint than a SWM, even if they have similar political leanings, then you are idealistic, willfully ignorant, or sheltered.

 

If you honestly think that someone of a non-caucasian appearance is going to have the same outlook on life as a caucasian, the same applies. And so forth with differing sexualities, other non-majority groups etc. etc.

 

I can guarantee that any of my female friends who had seen that scene with fem!Shep and Vega would have been horrified and called Bioware sexist for the quasi-date rape of that scene. And they are probably of similar general political thought as much of Bioware, as you would have it. The impression I have of this scene is that it's a "funny" scene because Vega is a man so it can't be rape, Shepard is a woman so it can't be rape, it was just a "silly" scene added to the overall humor of Citadel and no one thought more of it.

 

I am a white gay male. I enjoy a lot of the privileges of being white and male, so I can't begin to pretend to understand the viewpoint of a female or non-white person. But in my own experiences, I can at least claim to know the different viewpoint of someone of a minority sexuality, and this does affect my outlook on the world, regardless of my politics. Every time that I see a straight couple expressing PDA by simply holding hands or a quick kiss, I can be reminded that in their place, I would first make sure I am in a safe area where people aren't going to jeer or stare at me for holding my boyfriend's hand. This is just one example of how due to my identity, I have a different outlook on the world than any of the six cloned Patrick Weekes will, even if we agree on a lot of societal and political issues.

 

/end rant

and I think you vastly underestimate the ability of writers to you know, write...

 

I do not believe that you must be a member of a particular identity in order to gain an appreciation or understanding for the challenges that they face.  BioWare imo has done a pretty good job of this.  There is nothing that precludes the writers at BioWare from delivering material that deals with issues that the writers themselves may have never personally faced in life.

 

This is compounded by the similar cultural and political outlook that I imagine any writer BioWare would hire would have.  I personally don't see them hiring any KKK members or Black Nationalists.  It goes beyond simple agreement on politics.  It also encompasses world views, philosophy, and so on.  I will admit I am speculating but I do not think it far off the mark when I say that there isn't going to be a huge difference in outlook between members of a society that all share the same general politics, principles, philosophy and so on.  There will be individual variation among people, obviously. 

 

Since BioWare's demographics tend progressive, western, and upper middle class, I find it unlikely that will be combing the slums of Johannesburg or the Cambodian killing fields to find a new writers.  So as it stands they aren't likely to get a lot of ideological diversity compared to physical diversity

 

In short the differences between a gay white man born and raised in Canada compared to a straight white woman born and raised in Washington State would pale in comparison to the differences between a western writer and say a writer from some other corner of the world or political spectrum.

[AlanC9]

Did the term straight white male really get dropped?

._.

I hate this generation.

Which generation is that? Dunno how old vbibbi is, but I've been known to toss around "straight white male" when useful, and I'm past 50.

[Applepie_Svk]

 

 

SWMs do enjoy more privileges in Western society, however, and ignoring those privileges is one of those privileges. 

 

 

so... uh... there are no universal human rights in western society, but only the white male rights... riiiiiight ?

[Master Warder Z_]

I do not believe that you must be a member of a particular identity in order to gain an appreciation or understanding for the challenges that they face

 

Steel, we have known each other for a long time, had plenty of discussions and such and here is where your and my opinion diverge. I don't dismiss that you can have a basic understanding of a given thing without personal experience, but without that experience it may as well be without context. I think that this most prominently falls into the spectrum of violence. How could someone who has never even held a gun little lone fired one to prolong their own life or for that of a paycheck truly understand the experiences of somehow who has? A lot of games skirt over this just because I personally think they don't grasp the mentality and emotional state of warfare, it differs from person to person but if you actually talk with some of them about it and you get a few base things cemented.

 

For example, most military institutions dehumanize enemies, they ask you to picture a target or a animal. What process has replaced that now that there are literal sapient lifeforms out there that aren't human? Do you picture a turian or a geth or a pumpkin? This is just a single subconscious aspect that is stripped from a game about a supposed military force. Admittedly is any of this all that important in the grand scheme of things? No, not really its a space opera like starwars, that's what is there for. But to me it sort of loses steam given the PC is supposedly military.

[vbibbi]

and I think you vastly underestimate the ability of writers to you know, write...

 

I do not believe that you must be a member of a particular identity in order to gain an appreciation or understanding for the challenges that they face.  BioWare imo has done a pretty good job of this.  There is nothing that precludes the writers at BioWare from delivering material that deals with issues that the writers themselves may have never personally faced in life.

 

This is compounded by the similar cultural and political outlook that I imagine any writer BioWare would hire would have.  I personally don't see them hiring any KKK members or Black Nationalists.  It goes beyond simple agreement on politics.  It also encompasses world views, philosophy, and so on.  I will admit I am speculating but I do not think it far off the mark when I say that there isn't going to be a huge difference in outlook between members of a society that all share the same general politics, principles, philosophy and so on.  There will be individual variation among people, obviously. 

 

Since BioWare's demographics tend progressive, western, and upper middle class, I find it unlikely that will be combing the slums of Johannesburg or the Cambodian killing fields to find a new writers.  So as it stands they aren't likely to get a lot of ideological diversity compared to physical diversity

 

In short the differences between a gay white man born and raised in Canada compared to a straight white woman born and raised in Washington State would pale in comparison to the differences between a western writer and say a writer from some other corner of the world or political spectrum.

I think we're just going to disagree on this. Yes, good writers can write on experiences they have not personally undergone. That is a good majority of fiction, after all. But I am not in agreement that someone who has never had to deal with being gay can ever portray a gay character as authentically as someone who has. That's not to say a straight person can't write a good gay character, just that it's not going to be as deep or convincing a portrayal of the character.

 

For evidence I give you: the Asari (in general. blue space babes who also bang chicks!), Samantha Traynor's shower scene, Steve Cortez's defining characteristic being that he misses his dead husband. I didn't feel any sense of authenticity from any of these characters (or species...)

 

There's a reason "write what you know" is around. It's not about writing your autobiography, it's about having enough experience and information at hand to be accurate to the subject matter. And with the above examples and the Vega "romance," I don't think Bioware has accomplished this.

[Master Warder Z_]

Which generation is that? Dunno how old vbibbi is, but I've been known to toss around "straight white male" when useful, and I'm past 50.

 

Good for you? I have never encountered a situation where it is useful, but then again I don't talk to the sorts of people that would be all that impressed by it.

[Master Warder Z_]

I think we're just going to disagree on this. 

 

.-.

 

Well, This is awkward, we agree on something although for two entirely different reasons.

[AlanC9]

so... uh... there are no universal human rights in western society, but only the white male rights... riiiiiight ?

I don't see how you got that from what vbibbi said.

[AlanC9]

Good for you? I have never encountered a situation where it is useful, but then again I don't talk to the sorts of people that would be all that impressed by it.

Huh? Who was talking about impressing anyone? I was talking about the term being useful.

[vbibbi]

so... uh... there are no universal human rights in western society, but only the white male rights... riiiiiight ?

Basic human rights do not equal privileges.

 

I am in the U.S. Right now, there are politicians wanting to enter all Muslim Americans in a government database. Not just immigrants or visitors, but Muslims with American citizenship. Maker forbid this country is insane enough to let this happen, but do non-Muslims have to worry about facing so much hatred at this time in our country? Not just white males, but anyone who does not appear Muslim.

 

Recent events have shown that racism, intolerance of religion, homophobia, gender inequalities are still very much in effect, despite what we like to tell ourselves.

[vbibbi]

.-.

 

Well, This is awkward, we agree on something although for two entirely different reasons.

If I'm understanding your argument, we're actually agreeing for similar reasons, albeit coming at it from different angles. Nothing wrong with that, even if we don't agree on other things.

[Applepie_Svk]

Basic human rights do not equal privileges.

 

 

Ah yes, well, tell it to ISIS, NK, etc. ... the people that they are killing on daily basis could use some human rights. 

 

 

I am in the U.S. Right now, there are politicians wanting to enter all Muslim Americans in a government database. Not just immigrants or visitors, but Muslims with American citizenship. Maker forbid this country is insane enough to let this happen, but do non-Muslims have to worry about facing so much hatred at this time in our country? Not just white males, but anyone who does not appear Muslim.

 

Recent events have shown that racism, intolerance of religion, homophobia, gender inequalities are still very much in effect, despite what we like to tell ourselves.

 

 

There will be always politicians that will want to do batshit crazy things, it´s called populism. The thing is,that there was always terrorism in some form, just about 20 years ago we had an active terrorist cells in Europe which were of Europe´s origin.

 

At the moment there is a conflict betwen the concept of human rights and religion, which is irony because humans rights ensure that everyone can believe in whatever he or she wants. Dunno how it is in USA, but some countries in Europe allowed things that are undermining the strenght of states in favour of more radical parts of muslim society. Each one of these holy books have some crazy stuff in them, but Islam and Quran is not about an interpretation, there is no central authority to interpret, and word of god cannot be taken up for a debate, which is far from being an openminded about stuff. Which brings me to another part, some of these ultra progressive people in order to maintain political corectness are silencing other opinions, just because someone might feel offended about it.

 

It´s nice to have an ideal about people to live along and do whatever they wants, but it doesn´t work that way in real world.

[FKA_Servo]

Ah yes, well, tell it to ISIS...

 

[JosieRevisited]

 

 

The badly flawed notion that women write better women or men write better men is appalling. Give me 5 talented people and I don't care what race/gender/religion whatever they are and they will do better than a diverse cast of the mediocre. Insert the straw man here that you aren't asking for mediocre but for talented and diverse and I'll tell you what matters isn't the diversity but the talent.

 

 

I think you are reading wayyyy too much into the comment. The actual point being made was one of perspective. Straight white males aren't often on the receiving end of what can be considered assaults, whether it's because they have never actually been assaulted or they never recognized it as an assault because of society's conditioning. 

 

However, many women have. You can play that video for any number of women and a not insignificant chunk of them are going to tell you it's uncomfortable at best, rapey at worst. It isn't about who writes better, because that's subjective. It's about who can recognize what qualifies as a 'good' romance story versus a really, REALLY bad message to send. 'Sultry Shepard' getting Vega drunk and then taking advantage of him? Guys, that's not cool. That's just not cool and the folks discussing it were making the point that perhaps if a couple women had been involved they would have pointed out to the men who had obviously never been on the Vega side of the experience that it wasn't really the romance that the target demographic was looking for. I mean, Vega not wanting to speak about it again just oozed mountains of shame over the event and Shepard STILL had 0 empathy for the guy. Eggs? Awful. Just awful, terrible writing and something that could had been avoided if there had been just one or two peer-reviews of the content by people with different backgrounds than straight, white male. 

 

I can't believe that made it into a finished product, especially for the demographic that really wanted it. The lack of hetero options for a female Shepard was a gross oversight, but adding that doesn't fill the void. That's not a romance. That's a guy who had some convictions being taken advantage of when he was at his weakest, by someone he was supposed to be able to always trust. 

 

If you can't see that, then there's something very wrong with your world view. And you know what? Sadly, that's the world view of a LOT of guys. 

[Aimi]

There's a reason "write what you know" is around. It's not about writing your autobiography, it's about having enough experience and information at hand to be accurate to the subject matter. And with the above examples and the Vega "romance," I don't think Bioware has accomplished this.

The injunction to "write what you know" doesn't mean "only write about things that you, personally, have experienced". It means Do The Freaking Research. If you don't know what it's like to run long-distance track events, talk to long-distance runners, their coaches, and people who cover the sport. If you don't know what it's like to be a soldier in Galicia in 1915, read the memoirs of soldiers in Galicia in 1915, read histories about the operations that were happening there, and see the equipment that they used. If you don't know what it's like to be a black trans man, talk about it with black trans men, and spend time with them.

Some people still won't be able to make connections and describe those experiences adequately, often painfully so, but that's a problem for those writers, not for the concept. Some people will always think that No One Else Can Truly Understand What I'm Going Through, but that's a problem for those people, not for the concept. It's not like lesbians (or anybody else) get special words that only we can use, and nobody else has access to them and therefore can't create relatable experiences for us. If we can put our own experiences into words, somebody else can, so long as they're adequately informed of what our experiences are.

I don't think that queer identity is unique in this. I'm trained as a(n) historian. Our entire field consists of getting inside others' experiences, regardless of the subject's identity. I like to think that we do a pretty good job of this - certainly not a perfect job, but a pretty good job. If we can handle specific people, I don't see why writers can't make people up.

Now, I agree that Mass Effect's writing has thus far not done a very good job of creating something relatable for modern Western queer individuals! But that's on ME's writing, not on the very idea of straight writers making gay characters.

[Fixers0]

Recent events have shown that racism, intolerance of religion, homophobia, gender inequalities are still very much in effect, despite what we like to tell ourselves.

 

Thank goodness for that, Because nobody should be obliged to tolerate ideologies that are based around fictional omnipotent deities and the idolization of questionable historical figures and events.  

[Gothfather]

While I totally agree, I object to your clearly defamatory attack on the power of the gay penis. It is totally that powerful, it will turn you gay on mere exposure, and I'm sorry to break ranks and share it openly on the internet. But the truth is there's no escape from it. One second, you're straight and them BOOM!, gay penis. 

 

LMFAO.

[daveliam]

The badly flawed notion that women write better women or men write better men is appalling. Give me 5 talented people and I don't care what race/gender/religion whatever they are and they will do better than a diverse cast of the mediocre. Insert the straw man here that you aren't asking for mediocre but for talented and diverse and I'll tell you what matters isn't the diversity but the talent.

 

Huh?  You quoted me, but I'm assuming that you were talking about something else because I have never and would never make a statement as general as "women write better".  My point was that have more diversity increases diversity.  As basic as that sounds, that was really my point and, yet, apparently a very controversial one.

 

I don't see how you got that from what vbibbi said.

 

My guess would be via knee jerk reaction, half-reading, and/or a penchant for hyperbole.

[vbibbi]

The injunction to "write what you know" doesn't mean "only write about things that you, personally, have experienced". It means Do The Freaking Research. If you don't know what it's like to run long-distance track events, talk to long-distance runners, their coaches, and people who cover the sport. If you don't know what it's like to be a soldier in Galicia in 1915, read the memoirs of soldiers in Galicia in 1915, read histories about the operations that were happening there, and see the equipment that they used. If you don't know what it's like to be a black trans man, talk about it with black trans men, and spend time with them.

Some people still won't be able to make connections and describe those experiences adequately, often painfully so, but that's a problem for those writers, not for the concept. Some people will always think that No One Else Can Truly Understand What I'm Going Through, but that's a problem for those people, not for the concept. It's not like lesbians (or anybody else) get special words that only we can use, and nobody else has access to them and therefore can't create relatable experiences for us. If we can put our own experiences into words, somebody else can, so long as they're adequately informed of what our experiences are.

I don't think that queer identity is unique in this. I'm trained as a(n) historian. Our entire field consists of getting inside others' experiences, regardless of the subject's identity. I like to think that we do a pretty good job of this - certainly not a perfect job, but a pretty good job. If we can handle specific people, I don't see why writers can't make people up.

Now, I agree that Mass Effect's writing has thus far not done a very good job of creating something relatable for modern Western queer individuals! But that's on ME's writing, not on the very idea of straight writers making gay characters.

I can't tell if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me. I did say

 

"There's a reason "write what you know" is around. It's not about writing your autobiography, it's about having enough experience and information at hand to be accurate to the subject matter. And with the above examples and the Vega "romance," I don't think Bioware has accomplished this."

 

which to me means Do the Freaking Research. Maybe I didn't go into enough detail.

 

And as a historian, aren't primary sources preferred to third hand accounts? We don't discredit third hand accounts, as they can still capture most of the information, but they are not assumed to be as authentic as an actual original source.

[Sidney]

I think you are reading wayyyy too much into the comment. The actual point being made was one of perspective. Straight white males aren't often on the receiving end of what can be considered assaults, whether it's because they have never actually been assaulted or they never recognized it as an assault because of society's conditioning. 

I'm reading way too much into and the rest of your post is arguing just that.....odd.

[Lady Artifice]

Not exactly. When I wrote it, I recognized the range - but that still doesn't invalidate the example I chose to use.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the concept of platonic flirting (which you brought up) - because in my mind, the very nature of flirting is not platonic, though there are other forms of teasing that can be.
 

I've always considered eye candy to be just that - something nice to look at, period. Some forms of eye candy will be sexually attractive to some people, but it doesn't have to be. You can appreciate form without having any interest in any particular function.
 

Yeah, I get that, but other people are uncomfortable with it or just really don't like it for whatever reason (like finding it insincere or outright disingenuous). And though I completely support PC flirting in games, I don't think it should be happening without player input / consent.

 

The contention here might just come down to how arbitrary flirting is. The definition is, "behave as though attracted to or trying to attract someone, but for amusement rather than with serious intentions."

 

But the common interpretation seems to be that flirting is earnest pursuit. In any case, we still agree that they should probably be more careful with auto dialogue than they were in that instance.

[JosieRevisited]

 

I'm reading way too much into and the rest of your post is arguing just that.....odd.

 

You're reading too much into the comment about having a couple women to look at the finished product before they released it. It's not an attack on men as you implied in the comment I quoted. It's about releasing good content that appeals to a wide audience and how to get there. Sometimes to get there you need another point of view that isn't male.