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[Derrame]

Hi there,

 

help me understand

so, in the end, after all, the Inquisitor is not the Herald of Andraste, he is not the "chosen one" everything was just an accident, right?

[Evamitchelle]

The things that led to the Inquisitor being called the Herald (being sent to the Fade physically, the woman behind them in the Fade, being able to close rifts) are shown to be the result of being at the right place at the right time, but the Inquisitor can still believe to have been chosen by Andraste. You can still think that the Maker/Andraste guided those events.

[straykat]

The things that led to the Inquisitor being called the Herald (being sent to the Fade physically, the woman behind them in the Fade, being able to close rifts) are shown to be the result of being at the right place at the right time, but the Inquisitor can still believe to have been chosen by Andraste. You can still think that the Maker/Andraste guided those events.

 

Yeah, at best it becomes an issue of "Direct Divine Intervention" turning into Indirect Divine Intervention.

 

That said, I wonder why so many people so easily believed it in the first place. I understand that some would, but that many? The Chantry itself says the Maker doesn't care. This is what made Leliana unique in DAO to begin with.. her beliefs were more like Christian beliefs than Chantry based.

[thats1evildude]

That said, I wonder why so many people so easily believed it in the first place. I understand that some would, but that many? The Chantry itself says the Maker doesn't care. This is what made Leliana unique in DAO to begin with.. her beliefs were more like Christian beliefs than Chantry based.

That's why people were eager to believe. If the Inquisitor WAS the Herald of Andraste, then the Maker did care, and was intervening to save Thedas during what many believed to be the end times.

People cling to faith in times of desperation.

[straykat]

That's why people were eager to believe. If the Inquisitor WAS the Herald of Andraste, then the Maker did care, and was intervening to save Thedas during what many believed to be the end times.

 

It just goes against their core tenets.. They're not supposed to think the Maker is going to save them to begin with.. without their own intervention. When a group has a core tenet, it tends to define how they carry themselves in all kinds of matters.

 

I think the writers are just bringing in real world belief issues into this.. That and I think they needed some hamfisted way to make a completely meaningless character to have some "instant worth". Because they can't be bothered with writing an actual personal story that would be relevant to recruitment.

 

Anyways.. it's what made Leliana stand out before. It made her practically a heretic. And suddenly, even Cassandra is no different than she is. There's little distinction.

 

And this world in particular is often threatened with annilihation. That's what the Blights already do to people's minds. And they still didn't think the Maker was jumping in to save them.

[thats1evildude]

I guess I imagined all those people in DAO exclaiming that the Maker sent the Warden, then.

 

Yes, yes, you know better than the writers, blah blah blah. I'm not going to bother arguing further. Too much effort for too little reward.

[Darkly Tranquil]

I thought the whole point was that what actually happened really didn't matter. People believed the Inquisitor was the Herald of Andraste even if they said they weren't (and even though they actually weren't), because it was something they took on faith that allowed them to endure a dark time. It didn't matter if the Inquisitor really was the Herald or not, what mattered was that the were able united the people to fight against Corypheus, and that ultimately the Inquisitor's opinion didn't make much difference.

[SwobyJ]

You're supposed to possibly have faith that Andraste sent the Inquisitor. Faith means there are things that will challenge and define that faith.

The game does trend in a direction of faith about the mater --> truth of the matter, but you can even play the first half of the game as a skeptic and the second half as a newly faithful, if you so wish.

Nothing of the supposed 'truth' actually necessarily means that the Herald of Andraste idea is wrong. It only begins to show how the truth is often more complicated than any particular narrative about it. Spirit!Justina made that clear IMO (depending on your POV always, of course) - she is/was Andraste assisting you if that's what gives your Inquisitor hope. Heck, even the beginning scene and the 'memories' you gather in the Fade don't match up, further murkying the waters of what the 'real' events were, let alone the identity of the one who was your companion in the Fade.

Basically, the Inquisitor is the Herald if you decide that the Inquisitor is the Herald, and as a matter of faith, you just have to be ready to see things that will make you doubt that idea. You can be carried away from those things and therefore abandon your faith, or you can hold strong to it.

Maybe most players just assume what the narrative tells them is the truth, so I think most players went along with that and by the end of the game went "Pfft! Herald of Andraste? What rubbish made up by fools looking for their god to save them, even against their supposed previous religious dogma. Inquisitor is just a mortal sent by no one."

I think most players will be surprised by further pro-Andrastan (even if in certain strange ways) evidence in future games. (And for the record, I'm not lover of Andrastan/Chantry stuff, and I indeed had my Mage Inquisitor as a skeptic and agnostic about Maker and the Andraste story, at best.)
 

It just goes against their core tenets.. They're not supposed to think the Maker is going to save them to begin with.. without their own intervention. When a group has a core tenet, it tends to define how they carry themselves in all kinds of matters.
 
I think the writers are just bringing in real world belief issues into this.. That and I think they needed some hamfisted way to make a completely meaningless character to have some "instant worth". Because they can't be bothered with writing an actual personal story that would be relevant to recruitment.
 
Anyways.. it's what made Leliana stand out before. It made her practically a heretic. And suddenly, even Cassandra is no different than she is. There's little distinction.
 
And this world in particular is often threatened with annilihation. That's what the Blights already do to people's minds. And they still didn't think the Maker was jumping in to save them.

 
Actually, most didn't consider the Inquisitor the Herald.
 
Haven is a section of a section of people.
 
Hinterlands shows how a story is starting to grow, but only starting to.
 
Second half of game, the story is gaining steam.

The Breach is considered one of the biggest events in Thedas. Of course the survivor of it, the first known to enter the Fade and come back physically, would be considered blessed and a sign that Andraste is coming back (and potentially the Maker), especially given his witness account being simultaneously detailed and vague enough to support such an idea.

Its not just the 'death of the world'. Its a sustained threat with details about it that upend the regular understanding of it. To these common folk, you're the sign of hope, and that sign of hope indeed contradicts Chantry dogma and these folk are indeed debating about it in closed quarters for weeks and months during Inquisition. But at Haven/Skyhold you're being surrounded by the most relatively faithful about you (mixed with those who know you most as a mere mortal, to counteract that).

Most of Southern Thedas still continues to not consider the Inquisitor the Herald of Andraste - they just recognize that this is a growing title of someone with growing power and influence, often in safe condition, with an aura of mystique during a time of crisis, so there's no immediate cry of 'HERETIC!' and executions. There seems to be an impotence of the Chantry regarding the Inquisitor and this, as with so much else, adds on to the narrative that the Inquisitor is the right person at the right time...sent by the right deity.

[SwobyJ]

I thought the whole point was that what actually happened really didn't matter. People believed the Inquisitor was the Herald of Andraste even if they said they weren't (and even though they actually weren't), because it was something they took on faith that allowed them to endure a dark time. It didn't matter if the Inquisitor really was the Herald or not, what mattered was that the were able united the people to fight against Corypheus, and that ultimately the Inquisitor's opinion didn't make much difference.

Agreed except it does make some difference.

RP wise it can affect how you decide to help others, and by how much. How you interact with companions and the results of their stories. How you interact with factions and the results of their stories. And what the Inquisition and Inquisitor becomes, and how they plan to deal with Solas. It can all be part of a RP with some degree of effect, it just doesn't affect the fact that people unite and Corypheus is fought. You can relatively elevate yourself in good and bad ways, or keep yourself grounded in good and bad ways.

I'm not saying its perfect and genius, just that it can matter on a personal RP level.

[straykat]

You're supposed to possibly have faith that Andraste sent the Inquisitor. Faith means there are things that will challenge and define that faith.

The game does trend in a direction of faith about the mater --> truth of the matter, but you can even play the first half of the game as a skeptic and the second half as a newly faithful, if you so wish.

Nothing of the supposed 'truth' actually necessarily means that the Herald of Andraste idea is wrong. It only begins to show how the truth is often more complicated than any particular narrative about it. Spirit!Justina made that clear IMO (depending on your POV always, of course) - she is/was Andraste assisting you if that's what gives your Inquisitor hope. Heck, even the beginning scene and the 'memories' you gather in the Fade don't match up, further murkying the waters of what the 'real' events were, let alone the identity of the one who was your companion in the Fade.

Basically, the Inquisitor is the Herald if you decide that the Inquisitor is the Herald, and as a matter of faith, you just have to be ready to see things that will make you doubt that idea. You can be carried away from those things and therefore abandon your faith, or you can hold strong to it.

Maybe most players just assume what the narrative tells them is the truth, so I think most players went along with that and by the end of the game went "Pfft! Herald of Andraste? What rubbish made up by fools looking for their god to save them, even against their supposed previous religious dogma. Inquisitor is just a mortal sent by no one."

I think most players will be surprised by further pro-Andrastan (even if in certain strange ways) evidence in future games. (And for the record, I'm not lover of Andrastan/Chantry stuff, and I indeed had my Mage Inquisitor as a skeptic and agnostic about Maker and the Andraste story, at best.)
 
 
Actually, most didn't consider the Inquisitor the Herald.
 
Haven is a section of a section of people.
 
Hinterlands shows how a story is starting to grow, but only starting to.
 
Second half of game, the story is gaining steam.

The Breach is considered one of the biggest events in Thedas. Of course the survivor of it, the first known to enter the Fade and come back physically, would be considered blessed and a sign that Andraste is coming back (and potentially the Maker), especially given his witness account being simultaneously detailed and vague enough to support such an idea.

Its not just the 'death of the world'. Its a sustained threat with details about it that upend the regular understanding of it. To these common folk, you're the sign of hope, and that sign of hope indeed contradicts Chantry dogma and these folk are indeed debating about it in closed quarters for weeks and months during Inquisition. But at Haven/Skyhold you're being surrounded by the most relatively faithful about you (mixed with those who know you most as a mere mortal, to counteract that).

Most of Southern Thedas still continues to not consider the Inquisitor the Herald of Andraste - they just recognize that this is a growing title of someone with growing power and influence.

 

Meh. All I see is just a corny way to make a blank character have meaning. It's especially made handwavey and absurd with the extra races they crammed in at the 11th Hour. I would have preferred an actual story for the Inquisitor.. one that led to their relevance. I've said it before to you, but I wanted to be an "Inquisitor" rather than "Herald". And I wanted an Inquisition. Inquisitions are the least to fall to new fangled beliefs.. they're all about "inquiry" first. But in this game, it's just some generic religious "word" that sounds neat. Just like all of the religious ideas in this game. It has no depth to it.

 

If people in the setting are debating it so much, you wouldn't have amassed so much adoration and power.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Agreed except it does make some difference.RP wise it can affect how you decide to help others, and by how much. How you interact with companions and the results of their stories. How you interact with factions and the results of their stories. And what the Inquisition and Inquisitor becomes, and how they plan to deal with Solas. It can all be part of a RP with some degree of effect, it just doesn't affect the fact that people unite and Corypheus is fought. You can relatively elevate yourself in good and bad ways, or keep yourself grounded in good and bad ways.I'm not saying its perfect and genius, just that it can matter on a personal RP level.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant the Inquisitor's personal opinion doesn't make much difference to whether people think he/she is the Herald or not. Regardless of what the Inquisitor says to the contrary, people choose to believe. From my perspective, the point here is that the how the Inquisitor is perceived and ultimately remembered is completely beyond his/her control.

[nightscrawl]

It just goes against their core tenets.. They're not supposed to think the Maker is going to save them to begin with.. without their own intervention. When a group has a core tenet, it tends to define how they carry themselves in all kinds of matters.

You have just stated why my Trevelyan Inquisitor, an Andrastian, dislikes the Herald of Andraste title and disavows it, and struggles with his faith, particularly after the events in the Fade. To him, it's verging on blasphemy to be compared to Andraste. He's always been taught that the Maker has abandoned us. But if that's not the case, why has He chosen now to intervene? Why not during one of the previous Blights, or any other number of horrible incidents throughout history? Why now? Why me? And so on.

 

None of the conversations you can have with the "Divine" in the Fade, or with Giselle, help my Inquisitor at all with any of his questions or struggles. But, as I see it this is the nature of faith, and each person needs to come to their own determination about their own faith, whatever that may be.

I actually quite like this aspect of DAI and feel that it really added depth and dimension to my roleplay.

[Wulfram]

Yeah, at best it becomes an issue of "Direct Divine Intervention" turning into Indirect Divine Intervention.
 
That said, I wonder why so many people so easily believed it in the first place. I understand that some would, but that many? The Chantry itself says the Maker doesn't care. This is what made Leliana unique in DAO to begin with.. her beliefs were more like Christian beliefs than Chantry based.

While the Chantry says that the Maker doesn't care, it does say that Andraste cares. Hence presumably why the Herald is Herald of her and not the Maker.

[Qun00]

It isn't quite as black and white as people imagine. Believing or dismissing it entirely are both valid in the story.

That's why the characters keep asking you at different points in the story if your point of view has changed. It's an important plot point.

[Tidus]

I think Leliana said it all.. People needs that hope. Sure the Inquisitor  wasn't the Herald  but,people needed hope in a troubled time..

[Ranadiel Marius]

That said, I wonder why so many people so easily believed it in the first place. I understand that some would, but that many? The Chantry itself says the Maker doesn't care. This is what made Leliana unique in DAO to begin with.. her beliefs were more like Christian beliefs than Chantry based.

You are believed to be the Herald of Andraste, not the Maker. So whether the Maker cares or not isn't important. What is important is whether Andraste would care (and I believe the Chant indicates she would).

[diaspora2k5]

The whole point of that storyline was that people can do great things without being the chosen one, and that people will mythologize you regardless of your wishes.

[Dai Grepher]

I think the Herald title was based on the hope that the woman who led you out of the Fade was Andraste. It had nothing to do with YOU as a person really. This is most obvious in a Dalish mage playthrough. The people want the woman in the Fade to be Andraste. You being the Herald is not to mean that you speak for Andraste or that you are her agent. You are merely a sign. An omen. An indication that Andraste is returning to the world to lend aid to the faithful. The people need to believe that everything will be okay, and having Andraste looking out for them means it definitely will be okay. That's why they don't care what you think about yourself being the Herald of Andraste or not. A herald is not a spokesperson. A herald is a precursor. A harbinger. An announcement of what is to come.

 

This is partly why my male human mage said he did not know either way if he was the Herald or not even though he was a committed Andrastian. The other part is that he didn't know if the woman was Andraste or not, but he also understood the implications of being a herald. He thought it unwise and even dangerous to blindly invest so much hope and emotion in an unknown, and projecting your ideals on to Andraste is a form of idolatry. To believe Andraste was returning or would aid the world, especially when there was no evidence of this, was just setting people up for disappointment and dashed hopes. It could also breed fanaticism, which would benefit no one. Better to simply wait for the evidence while still holding on to faith in the Maker and believing in yourself and your friends. That way, if it was Andraste, then that's good, and you never dismissed the possibility. If not, then nothing has changed, and your faith remains as strong as ever.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Maker directly intervening in the mortal world is a heresy of the highest order in Chantry doctrine. The Maker is gone from the world and won't coming back until everyone on Thedas is converted and proved worthy of his love. I'd imagine that same goes for Andraste.

 

So, no, the Inquisitor is not the Herald of Andraste, there just a very competent and lucky individual.  

[Gervaise]

What I find strange is the whole faith element disappears in Trespasser.    Okay, it is 2 years down the line but during that time nothing has occurred to dent that belief.    During the main game events seemed to conspire to present you as a holy saviour.   As Varric points out, to do just one of the things you do is pretty amazing, but considered altogether seems nothing short of a miracle.   Of course, you can even embrace the title if you wish, whether sincere about it or not.    Leliana points out at the end that you have defeated the ultimate evil; an ancient magister and a darkspawn, which only consolidates your title of Herald.   My "believer" Herald even faced down Cory at the end in the Maker's name, before being whisked off to do battle with him.  

 

So you'd think that at the Exalted Council people would be a bit more respectful.    Teagan actually calls the Inquisition a "glorified mercenary band".    Oddly enough, no one seems to object to this.   Leliana was actually telling me to disband the Inquisition before the events with the Qunari, because people feared me.   What, surely not?   Am I not the Herald of Andraste, with her blessing on my endeavours?   So now it would seem you are not the Maker's Chosen, the Herald of Andraste at all.    It was a title that a few ordinary people decided must be the case, shortly after you closed the initial breach, probably through talking to the soldiers who found you walking out of the Fade and everyone else decided to run with as it served their purposes.   Actually both Cassandra and Leliana admit as much at the beginning.      I've never played an Inquisitor that Cassandra disapproves of but I'm guessing that she doesn't see them as a true Herald at all.    Giselle also explains how one of the faith can both believe the Maker does act and yet reconcile it to their faith that he doesn't.       To be honest, though, I don't think any of them really think it matters what you are, so long as the "faithful" believe and inspired by the story.   After all it turns out that very little in the Chant bears any resemblance to the true history of Andraste, so if they have been happy to believe with that knowledge, the Herald is just another instance of myth making for political convenience.

 

In DAO and DA2 my PCs tended to be Andrastrian but not followers of the Chantry.    Now my PC is just agnostic.     

[SwobyJ]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant the Inquisitor's personal opinion doesn't make much difference to whether people think he/she is the Herald or not. Regardless of what the Inquisitor says to the contrary, people choose to believe. From my perspective, the point here is that the how the Inquisitor is perceived and ultimately remembered is completely beyond his/her control.

I understood and I agree. I just added my thoughts on how it still affects part of the story we experience.

[vbibbi]

What I find strange is the whole faith element disappears in Trespasser.    Okay, it is 2 years down the line but during that time nothing has occurred to dent that belief.    During the main game events seemed to conspire to present you as a holy saviour.   As Varric points out, to do just one of the things you do is pretty amazing, but considered altogether seems nothing short of a miracle.   Of course, you can even embrace the title if you wish, whether sincere about it or not.    Leliana points out at the end that you have defeated the ultimate evil; an ancient magister and a darkspawn, which only consolidates your title of Herald.   My "believer" Herald even faced down Cory at the end in the Maker's name, before being whisked off to do battle with him.  

 

So you'd think that at the Exalted Council people would be a bit more respectful.    Teagan actually calls the Inquisition a "glorified mercenary band".    Oddly enough, no one seems to object to this.   Leliana was actually telling me to disband the Inquisition before the events with the Qunari, because people feared me.   What, surely not?   Am I not the Herald of Andraste, with her blessing on my endeavours?   So now it would seem you are not the Maker's Chosen, the Herald of Andraste at all.    It was a title that a few ordinary people decided must be the case, shortly after you closed the initial breach, probably through talking to the soldiers who found you walking out of the Fade and everyone else decided to run with as it served their purposes.   Actually both Cassandra and Leliana admit as much at the beginning.      I've never played an Inquisitor that Cassandra disapproves of but I'm guessing that she doesn't see them as a true Herald at all.    Giselle also explains how one of the faith can both believe the Maker does act and yet reconcile it to their faith that he doesn't.       To be honest, though, I don't think any of them really think it matters what you are, so long as the "faithful" believe and inspired by the story.   After all it turns out that very little in the Chant bears any resemblance to the true history of Andraste, so if they have been happy to believe with that knowledge, the Herald is just another instance of myth making for political convenience.

 

In DAO and DA2 my PCs tended to be Andrastrian but not followers of the Chantry.    Now my PC is just agnostic.     

It could have been interesting if Trespasser took into account whether we played as faithful or not in the base game. Teagan could have added to his complaints by calling us a heretic or attempting to topple the Chantry if we had claimed to be the Herald. And accused us of being a false prophet if we said we didn't believe.

 

Yeah, I would have liked a continuation on the theme of faith, it really is just brushed under the carpet. Especially ironic given that we can become the honor guard for the Divine, which I think would have some significant impact for both the Chantry and the common folk: the Herald of Andraste protecting the Divine.

 

It would have been interesting to hear of small cults popping up dedicated to the Herald (maybe like the veneration of Catholic saints) like the one in the Hinterlands. And there could be tension between these cults and the Chantry, depending on our past actions.

[SwobyJ]

Maker directly intervening in the mortal world is a heresy of the highest order in Chantry doctrine. The Maker is gone from the world and won't coming back until everyone on Thedas is converted and proved worthy of his love. I'd imagine that same goes for Andraste.
 
So, no, the Inquisitor is not the Herald of Andraste, there just a very competent and lucky individual.

Andraste is not the Maker and there's nothing about Andraste being by the Maker's side forever, never to return to Thedas.

Chantry canon is that she *urged the Maker to intervene* (when she was younger) and to *take pity on his children* (which almost worked, until she was killed by Tevinter).

She's an interventionist.

What IS heretical is to believe that the Maker himself will return and transform the world into a paradise before the Chant is sung across the world. It is the mandate of the Chantry that the Chant spreads everywhere (in this, it is similar to the Qun), and anything against that would be dealt with harshly. The Inquisition is right on the line - it isn't an automatic enemy.

I don't get why people consider it so wrong that people will think that Andraste blessed the Inquisitor. They can't say its the Maker, but nothing explicitly goes against Andraste herself being allowed to step in. It does add on to the myth though, so the Chantry organization has difficulties adjusting to this concept. But it doesn't overtly contradict it. Andraste is the one who is supposed to care and the one who tries to intervene in the affairs between the Maker and the world multiple times, and the Maker, while disagreeing, loves her for it, and the mortals of Thedas, while not being elevated to her level, love her for acting on behalf of the world.

[SwobyJ]

What I find strange is the whole faith element disappears in Trespasser.    Okay, it is 2 years down the line but during that time nothing has occurred to dent that belief.    During the main game events seemed to conspire to present you as a holy saviour.   As Varric points out, to do just one of the things you do is pretty amazing, but considered altogether seems nothing short of a miracle.   Of course, you can even embrace the title if you wish, whether sincere about it or not.    Leliana points out at the end that you have defeated the ultimate evil; an ancient magister and a darkspawn, which only consolidates your title of Herald.   My "believer" Herald even faced down Cory at the end in the Maker's name, before being whisked off to do battle with him.  
 
So you'd think that at the Exalted Council people would be a bit more respectful.    Teagan actually calls the Inquisition a "glorified mercenary band".    Oddly enough, no one seems to object to this.   Leliana was actually telling me to disband the Inquisition before the events with the Qunari, because people feared me.   What, surely not?   Am I not the Herald of Andraste, with her blessing on my endeavours?   So now it would seem you are not the Maker's Chosen, the Herald of Andraste at all.    It was a title that a few ordinary people decided must be the case, shortly after you closed the initial breach, probably through talking to the soldiers who found you walking out of the Fade and everyone else decided to run with as it served their purposes.   Actually both Cassandra and Leliana admit as much at the beginning.      I've never played an Inquisitor that Cassandra disapproves of but I'm guessing that she doesn't see them as a true Herald at all.    Giselle also explains how one of the faith can both believe the Maker does act and yet reconcile it to their faith that he doesn't.       To be honest, though, I don't think any of them really think it matters what you are, so long as the "faithful" believe and inspired by the story.   After all it turns out that very little in the Chant bears any resemblance to the true history of Andraste, so if they have been happy to believe with that knowledge, the Herald is just another instance of myth making for political convenience.
 
In DAO and DA2 my PCs tended to be Andrastrian but not followers of the Chantry.    Now my PC is just agnostic.

The idea of the Chantry is that is preserves the most important information for Thedas to know, not that it discovers everything (and possibly collapses under the rapid changes information does to an institution) or suppresses everything (and therefore nothing gets done or spread beyond power for its own sake).

I'm VERY anti-Chantry but just saying, that's what the Chantry is supposed to be for. Politics and interpretations over centuries does its damage, but there's still the core story and core point that maintains, and continues to after DAI. Common folk generally won't know the nuances of what the Maker may be, what Andraste was, etc, but they know the story and the aims of Andraste may be very benevolent, and only achievable with some level of mythologizing by various folks.

As we see with the whole Mark, in Thedas at least (lets not get into the real world haha), the 'political convenience' is more than only that. There's a whole cosmic realm beyond Thedas and there's interactions between Thedas and it, and there's cosmic purpose to trying to maintain a myth (whether others or yourself do it) in the face of this Beyond. Without this myth, there would be no Inquisition, and no bulwark against the invasions of Corypheus (whether by a more original plan, or DAI's demons and rifts). It matters. And so may the Chantry's myth.

[rapscallioness]

Yeah, OP, that's up to you. There is enough wiggle room and could be this or that's. So, it's on the Inquisitor to decide really.