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[Beren Von Ostwick]

It cannot be proven by anyone that the entity you encounter in the fade was not/is not Andraste.  It is purely a matter of faith.

[In Exile]

It just goes against their core tenets.. They're not supposed to think the Maker is going to save them to begin with.. without their own intervention. When a group has a core tenet, it tends to define how they carry themselves in all kinds of matters.

 

I think the writers are just bringing in real world belief issues into this.. That and I think they needed some hamfisted way to make a completely meaningless character to have some "instant worth". Because they can't be bothered with writing an actual personal story that would be relevant to recruitment.

 

Anyways.. it's what made Leliana stand out before. It made her practically a heretic. And suddenly, even Cassandra is no different than she is. There's little distinction.

 

And this world in particular is often threatened with annilihation. That's what the Blights already do to people's minds. And they still didn't think the Maker was jumping in to save them.

 

The actual answer is that Bioware really, really struggles remembering their expy for the monotheistic Christian god is supposed to be a deist one, instead. You see it with, for example, Grand Cleric Elthina too spouting heresies about the Maker intervening in the 5th blight. 

[KaiserShep]

The actual answer is that Bioware really, really struggles remembering their expy for the monotheistic Christian god is supposed to be a deist one, instead. You see it with, for example, Grand Cleric Elthina too spouting heresies about the Maker intervening in the 5th blight. 

Don't forget everyone constantly thanking the Maker. 

[Beren Von Ostwick]

Don't forget everyone constantly thanking the Maker. 

 

Particularly that scientist who works with Manuel on Eden Prime.

[cindercatz]

Hi there,

 

help me understand

so, in the end, after all, the Inquisitor is not the Herald of Andraste, he is not the "chosen one" everything was just an accident, right?

Yeah, what rapscallioness said. It's a question of your character's faith and beliefs.

[Big I]

There is zero evidence that the Maker or Andraste had anything to do with the Inquisitor's survival at the beginning of the game. The Inquisitor is given no special knowledge or revelation, and any unique abilities they have are a result of the actions of a darkspawn magister and an elven god. The idea that the Maker WOULD intervene under any circumstance is heretical according to Chantry dogma.

 

One of the annoying things about the game is that it never lets you deliver on either position. Reject being the Herald and there's no way to stop people from viewing you as a religious figure and going on to become a non religious inspiring person, like Drakon or Calenhad. Embrace being the Herald and there's no way to lead and reshape the Chantry; they should have at least let a female faithful Inquisitor become Divine.

[Beren Von Ostwick]

I would point out that it is, at most, only heretical based on HUMAN created dogma about the Maker.  The Maker himself probably wouldn't give two craps about what  the humans think about how he should or shouldn't intervene, either directly or via agents like Andraste.

[cindercatz]

There is zero evidence that the Maker or Andraste had anything to do with the Inquisitor's survival at the beginning of the game. The Inquisitor is given no special knowledge or revelation, and any unique abilities they have are a result of the actions of a darkspawn magister and an elven god. The idea that the Maker WOULD intervene under any circumstance is heretical according to Chantry dogma.

 

One of the annoying things about the game is that it never lets you deliver on either position. Reject being the Herald and there's no way to stop people from viewing you as a religious figure and going on to become a non religious inspiring person, like Drakon or Calenhad. Embrace being the Herald and there's no way to lead and reshape the Chantry; they should have at least let a female faithful Inquisitor become Divine.

You actually can pretty drastically effect the Chantry based on who becomes Divine and how you influenced them. I think the game does a good job of that in general. Also, how the Maker behaves or in what fashion has nothing to do with Chantry doctrine. You can actively be a heretical andrastian and put a heretic at the head of the Chantry in Leliana. There's nothing that says your character has to accept whatever doctrinal dogma. Just like in the real world, being a true believer in no way means you adhere to any given church dogma. There's no litany of rules and nonsense that automatically comes along with personal faith. That's a man made, false teaching.

[Wulfram]

When they established the notion of the Maker not being interventionist, they also introduced the notion that people outside the chantry hierarchy want to believe in more direct intervention. Aside from Leliana, we've got the Knights in Redcliffe asking the Reverend Mother to give them the Maker's protection - the Reverend Mother declines because the Maker has turned away, but you can persuade her to give the Knights some amulets which have a positive morale effect at least.

So I don't think such inconsistencies can just be put down to Bioware not remembering, though on some occasions it seems like it is - I wouldn't expect a Grand Cleric to be casually heretical, but I can believe a popular movement like the one following the Herald of Andraste would stray from orthodox chantry beliefs.

[MoonblaDAI]

There is zero evidence that the Maker or Andraste had anything to do with the Inquisitor's survival at the beginning of the game.<snip>

 

The lack of evidence is the core of what faith is, it is about believing something is true without proof. The people of Thedas watching the Inquisitor as the only survivor of the hecatomb that opened the breach clung to the belief that he/she was blessed by Andraste. You can't ask for hard evidence, is not going to happen.

[SwobyJ]

Don't forget everyone constantly thanking the Maker. 

 

The Maker made everything. The Chantry constantly boasts his act of creation. AKA everything being of his will, just not necessarily his intent.

 

Dogma may be that the Maker doesn't act, but PEOPLE WANT MORE than that. So 'Thank the Maker' entering figures of speech is perfectly fine with me.

[Big I]

The lack of evidence is the core of what faith is, it is about believing something is true without proof. The people of Thedas watching the Inquisitor as the only survivor of the hecatomb that opened the breach clung to the belief that he/she was blessed by Andraste. You can't ask for hard evidence, is not going to happen.

 

Nor for everyone. Cassandra's whole raison d'etre is is finding the truth of things and revealing it, even if other people would rather continue in a comforting lie. Leliana's (at least in Origins) is is sharing and acting upon her revelation. Both are unconcerned with what people want to be true, and both are focused on reforming the southern Chantry.

 

 

It's why Giselle is one of my least favorite characters. She's not interested in the truth, just in reinforcing what she wants to be true. She encourages you not to tell people that it was Justina that saved you. She refuses to believe Corypheus's version of the Second Sin simply because it comes from him. For Giselle, it's less important (if it matters at all) that people understand and follow the Chant of Light, and more important that people are comforted and are nice to each other. That might be a good goal for a healer or a social worker, but it's problematic in a priest.

 

 

The problem with saying "faith doesn't need evidence" is that multiple explanations can work for the same events. An example: the Inquisitor wasn't chosen by Andraste, but Dumat. Dumat was cleansed of the taint by the Wardens during the First Blight, not killed, and has been sleeping until he recovers his strength. He awakens to find his high priest corrupted and trying to destroy the world, and empowers the Inquisitor to stop him. There's as much evidence for this theory as there is that the Inquisitor was saved by Andraste, or the Ancestors, or the Evanuris, or the Lady of the Skies. Or Flemeth, because she seems to be behind everything.

[Illegitimus]

Yeah, at best it becomes an issue of "Direct Divine Intervention" turning into Indirect Divine Intervention.

 

That said, I wonder why so many people so easily believed it in the first place. I understand that some would, but that many? The Chantry itself says the Maker doesn't care. This is what made Leliana unique in DAO to begin with.. her beliefs were more like Christian beliefs than Chantry based.

 

Actually I don't think the Chantry really thinks that there''s no chance that the Maker will intervene ever.  They think the Maker doesn't communicate and won't do miracles in response to mortal prayers.  But that doesn't preclude the Maker from taking it's own sweet initiative if it decides something is important enough.  The imminent disintegration of physical reality might quality enough for the Maker to give matters a nudge.  Or at least let Andraste do it.  Of course whether that actually happened was a matter of internal dispute.  

[Madfox11]

It doesn't help that the exact nature of Spirit Justina is unclear and rather malleable at that. After all, if she is a spirit and people belief she is the spirit of Andraste or Justina than she might well become such... Fact is though that what happened in the Fade is not normal and Andraste's interference is as good explanation as being at the right place at the right time. After all, if Cory only survived because of his immortality, why did you survive? You did not had the same tricks available as Cory had.

[In Exile]

It doesn't help that the exact nature of Spirit Justina is unclear and rather malleable at that. After all, if she is a spirit and people belief she is the spirit of Andraste or Justina than she might well become such... Fact is though that what happened in the Fade is not normal and Andraste's interference is as good explanation as being at the right place at the right time. After all, if Cory only survived because of his immortality, why did you survive? You did not had the same tricks available as Cory had.

You got thrown into the Fade. The cutscene in the Fade makes it seem like - and this isn't really given much attention - that it was your grabbing the orb and obtaining the Anchor that released the power inside it and may well have caused the breach.

[Dai Grepher]

I think it was hinted that the Spirit is what saved your life. But yes, this was never really addressed in the game. If Solas meant for Corypheus to die in the explosion, then the mark should not have passed to anyone. The orb should have simply let out the killing blast and it would have been over with. The orb would then retain all the magic. But no, the magic went to the Herald and the blast did not kill him for some reason. The only answer I can guess is that the Spirit saved his life. Don't know how this would work though. Maybe the Spirit was watching Justinia and heard her cry for help. Then saw the Herald and warded him against the magical blast.

[thats1evildude]

You got thrown into the Fade. The cutscene in the Fade makes it seem like - and this isn't really given much attention - that it was your grabbing the orb and obtaining the Anchor that released the power inside it and may well have caused the breach.

I thought that's exactly what happened.

[Vordish]

There is a thread where some guy posted a transcript from a dev interview and one of the statements was from the dev about the player "learning the truth" concerning the orb and being the "Herald" and if you still believed you were the Herald of Andraste.

 

Long story short; you never were picked by Andraste. It was designed this way by the devs themselves.

 

Also, just to put this out there; there is a difference between real faith and "blind" faith. Real faith is based upon evidence. Blind faith is not.

 

So many Biblical parallels that its mind-boggling yet the entire premise of the game is a damn lie(lore-wise). Oh look! Your the "Herald of Andraste!". HAH! Fooled you! Your character just happened to pick up the orb and Andraste wasn't in the fade...it was some screwed Justinia person...or spirit...or whatever, but your a cool leader of a religious army! You can still believe your chosen if you want though! You can have "faith" that you are...when there isn't any real evidence for it! Better to believe it blindly as though it were true! Hell...you could believe Cassandra is a dwarf and that Solas is really a transgender human who used magic to make them pointy ears.(doesn't make it true, but you could believe it if you still want to!)

 

Uh huh. Right.

[nightscrawl]

You got thrown into the Fade. The cutscene in the Fade makes it seem like - and this isn't really given much attention - that it was your grabbing the orb and obtaining the Anchor that released the power inside it and may well have caused the breach.

I thought that's exactly what happened.

 
Hmm... I read the scene a bit differently. I was thinking that when the Divine knocks the orb out of Corypheus's hand that it was at 99.9% power. As it's rolling to the PC it reaches 100% and they pick it up -- because, of course they do -- and then all that power is released, causing the Breach. It seems to me that everything happened is rapid succession: the orb bestows the Anchor to the PC, the energy released causes a massive explosion, and the Breach is created.

 

Because the PC is at the nexus of the explosion, they're sucked into the Fade. However, what I don't understand is why Justinia survived the blast in order to be sucked into the Fade along with the PC, but Corypheus, who was standing an arm's length away, did not. Also, I've always thought that Corypheus did not survive and just jumped bodies into one of the GW minions. But... did all those at the ritual die, and he jumped into a GW that was miles away?

 

Some of that is a little too ambiguous for me, and makes me wonder how real the memories are, and if our vision of them was influenced by the Fade-Justinia. I've always considered the fact that, in the visions, our PC is shown to be wearing the same armor at time time of our journey into the Fade at Adamant -- Inquisition gear, or whathaveyou -- to be some sort of technical limitation or blunder on the part of the devs, so I never paid it much attention. There is a similar instance with Solas in the Fade. But perhaps that isn't correct and it was done intentionally? (Though I don't think this likely.)

[Madfox11]

Furthermore, it is probably save to assume that Solas expected Cory to also hold the orb in his hand when it would be triggered. He still expected Cory to die. So having the Inquisitor survive is still not according to Solas' expectations. Granted, Solas seems to have trouble with overseeing the consequences of his actions, so who knows what would have happened if the Inquisitor had not disrupted the ritual

[In Exile]

Hmm... I read the scene a bit differently. I was thinking that when the Divine knocks the orb out of Corypheus's hand that it was at 99.9% power. As it's rolling to the PC it reaches 100% and they pick it up -- because, of course they do -- and then all that power is released, causing the Breach. It seems to me that everything happened is rapid succession: the orb bestows the Anchor to the PC, the energy released causes a massive explosion, and the Breach is created.

Because the PC is at the nexus of the explosion, they're sucked into the Fade. However, what I don't understand is why Justinia survived the blast in order to be sucked into the Fade along with the PC, but Corypheus, who was standing an arm's length away, did not. Also, I've always thought that Corypheus did not survive and just jumped bodies into one of the GW minions. But... did all those at the ritual die, and he jumped into a GW that was miles away?

Some of that is a little too ambiguous for me, and makes me wonder how real the memories are, and if our vision of them was influenced by the Fade-Justinia. I've always considered the fact that, in the visions, our PC is shown to be wearing the same armor at time time of our journey into the Fade at Adamant -- Inquisition gear, or whathaveyou -- to be some sort of technical limitation or blunder on the part of the devs, so I never paid it much attention. There is a similar instance with Solas in the Fade. But perhaps that isn't correct and it was done intentionally? (Though I don't think this likely.)

They were almost certainly Fade influenced memories. I was shocked that was a point you could bring up as a religious Inquisitor, because it was a low hanging fruit explanation for everything.

In terms of the rirtual, it doesn't look to have completed. There never was a sacrifice, right? The Divine was always alive. I think it's more than the foci by that point was unstable and something the Inquisitor did triggered it. I don't think Solas expected the breach.

[Qis]

Since DA:O it have been shown that The Maker don't exist..."The Maker left us" is just an excuse for the lack of evidence of it's existence. So when anyone ask about prove of The Maker's work and found nothing, the Chantry just say "The Maker left us, that's why..."

[SwobyJ]

Furthermore, it is probably save to assume that Solas expected Cory to also hold the orb in his hand when it would be triggered. He still expected Cory to die. So having the Inquisitor survive is still not according to Solas' expectations. Granted, Solas seems to have trouble with overseeing the consequences of his actions, so who knows what would have happened if the Inquisitor had not disrupted the ritual

 

He's the George Lucas of Thedas. He'd be wonderful if only he had people saying "NO!" and "This will result in ___, do something else instead."

 

Oh wait, the Inquisitor. YAY DA4!

[SwobyJ]

Since DA:O it have been shown that The Maker don't exist..."The Maker left us" is just an excuse for the lack of evidence of it's existence. So when anyone ask about prove of The Maker's work and found nothing, the Chantry just say "The Maker left us, that's why..."

 

A great myth to make true via Fade then.

[Qis]

For me, the real thing there is no Maker, there is no evidence whatsoever for His existence. Nothing indicate the existence of The Maker in the first place.

 

While Andraste maybe a real person, but everying about her with The Maker never proven, her ash also proven not to be miraculous. Nothing in the game prove the existence of The Maker, everything against His existence.

 

"The Maker left us" for me means "The Maker don't even exist, we who create Him and we make excuse for His non-existence by saying He left us", so when anyone want to argue about why there is no evidence, the excuse id "He left us..."