19 réponses à ce sujet

[voteDC]

While discussing the endings in another thread the subject of AIs obviously came up and how an AI personality is formed by their quantum bluebox. Plus even if you copied all an AIs files into a new bluebox it would not be the same AI, as variations in the box would create a new personality.

So that got me thinking about the Control ending. In this ending Shepard gets uploaded and effectively overwrites the Catalyst but would this still be 'Shepard'? Would putting the brain's 'files' into a bluebox have the same effect as switching the files of a new AI?

Of course this is all assuming that ancient Leviathan AIs work on the same principal as most of the AIs of this cycle, but could this new Shepard AI draw different conclusions from organic Shepard based on the same memories?

[Dantriges]

Personal impression was yes, not the same person anymore and Shep talked a lot how his/her understanding changed from the old self.

[rossler]

He sounds an awful lot like a Reaper and not like Shepard.

 

There was a cut line from ME1 where Saren spouted similar things as Shepard in the extended control ending. This line is found when Sovereign takes control of Saren.

 

Saren: We are the pinnacle of creation. Immortal, infallible, perfect.

 

Shepard: Eternal, infinite, immortal.

Shepard: The man I was knew he could only achieve this by becoming something greater.

[FlyingSquirrel]

Not exactly, no. Note that AI-Shep in the Control epilogue speaks of the "man/woman I *was*." It reminds me a bit of 2010: The Year We Make Contact, where an entity communicates by saying, "I was David Bowman," not "I am David Bowman." Something about who Shepard and Bowman fundamentally were has changed, even if they retain memories of their earlier existence.

 

I also have doubts about this whole idea, independent of the context in ME, of "transferring" consciousness into some sort of virtual realm. It might well be possible to create a digital or virtual version of someone's brain, but we have no way of knowing that the person's actual consciousness would migrate from his/her body to the virtual version, and in fact I would tend to assume that it probably wouldn't. So I suspect that AI-Shepard is an entity that possesses all of human Shepard's memories, but human Shepard is dead.

 

Consider, after all, an alternate scenario in which the exact same outcome (the creation of AI-Shepard) could be achieved *without* human Shepard being absorbed, so that we now have AI-Shepard in charge of the Reapers while human Shepard is still alive. Would we even be considering the possibility that AI-Shepard and human Shepard somehow share a single consciousness, or would we just take it for granted that they don't?

[Iakus]

No.  It is an AI that has Shepard's memories and, to some extent, values.  But it is not Shepard.  It does not have Shepard's perspective, emotions, or personal connections.

 

Shepard is dead, that charred lump of meat that grabbed the electrical rods.

[themikefest]

the former human known as Shepard is now a thing that controls the reapers. So no. Its not Shepard

[Glockwheeler]

Don't know. I pushed the red button.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Pre-EC I would say it doesn't matter.

Post-EC, I would say yes. Epilogue Shep talks about the man he was, which seems like a weird thing to say if Shepard was the same.

[Dantriges]

Considering the vast amount of "brainpower" the Shep AI has, his thought patterns should change a lot.

[Dalakaar]

Unless the brain that is Shepard is just a method of interface into the universe for the entity that is Shepard. That interface changes (lets for the sake of argument call it an upgrade) but the entity that is Shepard remains the same.

 

Essentially, the human brain is the UI for the soul, and the soul doesn't change, it just gets a bigger better UI to immerse itself in the universe.

 

/shrug, dunno, just a thought.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Unless the brain that is Shepard is just a method of interface into the universe for the entity that is Shepard. That interface changes (lets for the sake of argument call it an upgrade) but the entity that is Shepard remains the same.

 

Essentially, the human brain is the UI for the soul, and the soul doesn't change, it just gets a bigger better UI to immerse itself in the universe.

 

/shrug, dunno, just a thought.

 

I think it's a good one. A lot of this discussion deals with the definition of self, which is a thing humans have been arguing for the last few thousand years without a clear answer ever emerging.

[Kabooooom]

The ending strongly implies that he is the same consciousness, yes - however, he has ascended to a state so vastly different from his prior organic one that he may as well be a different entity altogether. Similar to the movie Transcendence, in a way.

[Motherlander]

The trouble with all the endings is that we can argue that none of them, no even destroy, ends the Reaper threat.

If we are to assume that the Control ending is to be taken as a solution in good faith, then I would say that, yes, the new Control-Shepard does have the same values and morality as old Shepard.

However, the problem I have is with what happens in the future. There are a few considerations.

Firstly is Shepard's prejuidices. Shepard will have many prejudices as to what is good and bad in society. These prejuidices will be based on the society Shepard lived in. But what will happen if culture, morals and practices change over time? What will happen if Shepard fundamentally disagrees with the the culture and practices of a new society centuries in the future? In an extreme circumstance, Shepard may decide to destroy a future society he/she doesn't agree with. That could restart the cycle.

Just imagine, the same thing happened to a Puritan of the 16th century. The Puritan would help impose his philosophy on the world because he would believe that was morally right. For a time, there would be harmony between the new Puritan world and the Reapers controlled by the Puritan. But what happens if the society starts to change and liberalise. The Puritan could object to the changes and take action to enforce his will. He may even start the cycle as a way of purifying the Galaxy.

How will Shepard's sense of 'humanity' survive as time goes on. At the beginning, Shepard may be in touch with society through his/her friends. But eventually, they will die off and there will eventually be no one that Shepard can relate to. This may result in Shepard losing all empathy with the non-reaper species around him/her. Again, after several centuries or milenium, Shepard may lose all connection with his/her past existence. Shepard may even become persuaded that the Reapers were right and start the cycle again.

The third issue is Shepard's sanity. This is actually related to the OP question. If the Control-Shep is the old Shep, then surely he/she may become insane over time. Human consciousness is not built for immortality. And a being that becomes immortal will soon lose touch with the mortal beings around it. (See above). As Shepsrd gets used to immortality, Shepard may come to view the mortals of later generations as insignificant. This attitude would make Shepard's views consistent with those of the Reapers and may result in a new reaping.

If on the other hand control- Shepard is not the old Shep, but some sort of IA construct. This means that the new-Shep will immediately struggle to have any empathy with the non-reapers beings. However, this may not be worse than Shepard surviving. An AI Shepard will not be so subject to insanity, and so may be able to reject the old reaper philosophy for longer. However, an AI with such huge power may not be able to stay out of conflict with the organic races, and that could lead to future war and oppression.

In conclusion, it doesn't really matter whether it is the real Shep or not who controls the Reapers. Both will eventually lose their connection ands empathy with the organic races over time. And that may result in conflict and even the recommence meant of the cycle.

[AlanC9]

Why would restarting the cycles be at all likely? Surely there are lots of other bad things the Sheplyst could do besides the particular bad thing its predecessor chose.

Also, the Sheplyst would have to go bad fairly quickly, since the galaxy would certainly progress in technology and power. In a millenium or two, would the Reaper force have any real chance?

It's academic, though. As late as the Stargazer's time nothing of the sort had happened.

[fhs33721]

He sounds an awful lot like a Reaper and not like Shepard.

 

There was a cut line from ME1 where Saren spouted similar things as Shepard in the extended control ending. This line is found when Sovereign takes control of Saren.

 

Saren: We are the pinnacle of creation. Immortal, infallible, perfect.

 

Shepard: Eternal, infinite, immortal.

Shepard: The man I was knew he could only achieve this by becoming something greater.

Well in the Reapers defense, this is a case of "Jerkass has a point". They actually are the current pinnacle of evolution. At least in the Milky way.

And the Control-Shepard(AI) is an objectively greater entity than human-soldier-Shepard, who might have at one point during the playthrough asked Liara wether Asari can reproduce with their own species or not. Just saying.

[Motherlander]

Why would restarting the cycles be at all likely? Surely there are lots of other bad things the Sheplyst could do besides the particular bad thing its predecessor chose.
Also, the Sheplyst would have to go bad fairly quickly, since the galaxy would certainly progress in technology and power. In a millenium or two, would the Reaper force have any real chance?
It's academic, though. As late as the Stargazer's time nothing of the sort had happened.

I do think that the restarting of the cycles is possible (if not likely) in the long term. Shepard may well become corrupted over time and he/she may come to the conclusion the reapers are right.

In the end, what I suggested are just possible scenarios. Some may reflect them. But I think they are possible, depending on how you see the nature and limitations of control.

However, I agree that it is not a certainty the cycle will recommence, but with the reapers around and at full power it is a possibility. I think that really depends on how you see the nature of control. I definitely agree that other bad things could happen instead of restarting the cycle. Shepard may maintain the Galaxy in a state of oppression where there is no development. In so sequence, society could stagnate.

There is no certainly the the other races will develop anti-reaper technology. However, I have to admit that in my version of destroy, the Council races do just that and end up destroying the reapers after they try to restart the cycle. I like it that idea.

As for stargazer, I see that happening well in the future after the Reaper threat is resolved once and for all. It tells us nothing as to how the reapers dissapear. Or perhaps they are s I'll there securing peace for the Galaxy. I suppose that is up to each individual to decide what happens.

[themikefest]

I wonder what the former human known as Shepard that is now controlling the reapers, do if Hackett decides to build another crucible to destroy the reapers?

[Iakus]

Why would restarting the cycles be at all likely? Surely there are lots of other bad things the Sheplyst could do besides the particular bad thing its predecessor chose.

Also, the Sheplyst would have to go bad fairly quickly, since the galaxy would certainly progress in technology and power. In a millenium or two, would the Reaper force have any real chance?

It's academic, though. As late as the Stargazer's time nothing of the sort had happened.

Stargazer scene always reminded me of this scene from Jade Empire::

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=Qq8VepzrQ-M

[fhs33721]

I wonder what the former human known as Shepard that is now controlling the reapers, do if Hackett decides to build another crucible to destroy the reapers?

Good question.

Paragon Shepard? I honestly don't know.

Renegade Shepard? Pretty sure s/he would just violently slaughter Hackett and everyone else involved in it for their insolence.

[iM3GTR]

If Shepard was to start the cycle again, I'm sure s/he would probably harvest the synthetics instead, unless s/he was sympathetic towards legion and the Geth, in which case s/he might just kill everyone, and...this comment has sort of backfired, hasn't it?