209 réponses à ce sujet

[rashie]

While companies like OBsidian and InXile are setting records crowdfunding RPGs because publishers think the genre's dead 

Games have become absurdly more expensive to create since the days when the kind of rpg's being crowd-funded, was all the western "rpg" genre really was. The market is still there, the amount of consumers needed to keep it equally profitable is not.

 

While pillars of eternity has its flaws, it was still a massive success among its own fanbase, but according to steamspy its currently only sitting at ~600k owners, compare to what any AAA game needs to sell to be considered a hit.

[AlanC9]

Which is why me2 and oblivion changed their systems to player skill based for the to hit. Though mass effect allowed a work around with pause to aim. Though still stat driven it's not as complete and they focussed more on the what happens after you hit part.

Oblivion? How'd you score a hit in Morrowind?

[FKA_Servo]

Oblivion? How'd you score a hit in Morrowind?

 

You swung in real-time at the skeleton two inches in front of you and hoped your short blade skill was high enough to connect with something other than air, despite, again, the skeleton being two inches in front of you.

[AlanC9]

Games have become absurdly more expensive to create since the days when the kind of rpg's being crowd-funded, was all the western "rpg" genre really was. The market is still there, the amount of consumers needed to keep it equally profitable is not.
 
While pillars of eternity has its flaws, it was still a massive success among its own fanbase, but according to steamspy its currently only sitting at ~600k owners, compare to what any AAA game needs to sell to be considered a hit.

Well, the genre can be profitable as long as you adjust the budget to rational sales projections. But EA, and Bio, would rather be Fox than Fox Searchlight, so to speak. Getting away from AAA would require Bio to jettison too much of what they manifestly want to do.

[Ahglock]

You swung in real-time at the skeleton two inches in front of you and hoped your short blade skill was high enough to connect with some something other than air, despite, again, the skeleton being two inches in front of you.

Yup. A table top style mechanic. While visuals did not show it you are supposed to imagine that the monster is parrying the attack or it deflects off its thick hide. You stil had to aim and hit the monster for the die roll to even occur but nothing moved fast or tried to evade so it was hard to screw that up.

They still kind of do this with inflated shield/armor pools the boss doesn't have a better armor than you it represents their ability and skill to not get hit as often as a mook. It's a way to abstractly represent a better AI for the enemy.

[AlanC9]

You swung in real-time at the skeleton two inches in front of you and hoped your short blade skill was high enough to connect with some something other than air, despite, again, the skeleton being two inches in front of you.

Right. So, ME1?

I was alternating between Skyrim and Morrowind a few months ago, and Morrowind felt just as action-y to me. Maybe because there isn't much to do with the attack skill, I literally forgot that hit chance was even a thing.

[FKA_Servo]

Right. So, ME1?

I was alternating between Skyrim and Morrowind a few months ago, and Morrowind felt just as action-y to me. Maybe because there isn't much to do with the attack skill, I literally forgot that hit chance was even a thing.

 

I think even ME1 is a little less annoying and weird about it.

 

They're all action-y, with real-time casting and real-time swinging, at least back to Daggerfall (which even had somewhat more in-depth swordplay, in that slashing horizontally, vertically, and diagonally, as well as stabbing, were all distinct actions), which is why that particular system has always irritated me. I know that lots of people hate the "streamlining" that Skyrim seems to have perfected, but for me, it was like "I can finally play this."

[Ahglock]

Right. So, ME1?

I was alternating between Skyrim and Morrowind a few months ago, and Morrowind felt just as action-y to me. Maybe because there isn't much to do with the attack skill, I literally forgot that hit chance was even a thing.

Your chance to connect was really high in morrowind but if your skill was low it was deflected to some degree so you did minimal damage. It was quick and easy to get your skill to the point you mostly solidly connected. DaggerFall was a pain it was a flurry of misses against the weakest enemies.

[Laughing_Man]

It's accurate. Kickstarter money is a pittance. An AAA game at $60USD would have to sell 50,000 units to reach 3 million. To describe that as a flop of epic proportions would be an understatement, and that's top 10 kickstarter territory. AAA games - even if you say DA2 is total flop - will pull in 100x or so the revenue of a kickstarter.

And a kickstarter isn't exactly a preorder. It's more complicated than that because a number of users will actually get the base game at a discount (with no prospect of a refund if the game is cancelled). To accrue investment the development company is monetizing future sales at a discount.

My point is simply that kickstarter, while an absolutely phenomenal boon for us gamers, isn't really something that will convince publishers to invest in games of this type.

 

Again, you are looking at Kickstarter numbers as final sales numbers, and are comparing AAA quality with games that are sold at half that price.

(sometimes less) Many people do not join kickstarters for many valid reasons, and later buy those games when they come out.

 

And in my experience, you rarely get a meaningful discount on a kickstarter, and anyway, if you compare that to how much it will cost to

take a loan or an investment, the discount is probably the cheaper choice.

 

In any case my point was that there is enough interest in this field, hell, Skyrim was an RPG.

 

The only reason why all those isometric RPG's seem like they failed if you compare them to an AAA game, is because they are produced at

a fraction of the cost of the average AAA title, and therefore can not boast many AAA qualities, which in turn causes many potential buyers

to lose interest because they are "not shiny enough".

 

Bottom line: The market is likely deep enough for at least one or two more AAA SP RPG franchises.

[Stakrin]

We have space rpg and fantasy rpg. I wants vampire, werewolf, nightmare type of gothic Rpg. And mermaids.

[Akrabra]

We have space rpg and fantasy rpg. I wants vampire, werewolf, nightmare type of gothic Rpg. And mermaids.

Think Obsidian is working on a new Bloodlines game. Sequel to Vampire The Masquerade. Gothic is dead, sadly, and Risen was not a worthy successor

[NKnight7]

RPG's are games that take time to make. A lot of work is put into them.

[Commander Rpg]

RPG's are games that take time to make. A lot of work is put into them.

I would have never said that, looking at Mass Effect 3...

 

ooooopsss

[Akrabra]

I would have never said that, looking at Mass Effect 3...

 

ooooopsss

There was probably put alot of work into Mass Effect 3. If it had the right focus and vision on the other hand, well didn't seem like it. Mass Effect 2 was in development for a shorter time than ME3 and it was a huge success, and seems to be a fan favourite. 

[Lee T]

I'm curious what you think is an example of a non-RPG incorporating more RPG mechanics than a non-RPG.

You misread me. I said that you can see more than there used to be in those types of games. i didn't compare the quantities between nonRPG and RPG Games. Thankfully RPGs are still more RPG than the competition, even when they go the action way like ME or FO4 and the lines could start to blur you can still clearly see the differences. For now....

That being said, if you take some of the "boldest" RPG company moves, you can have some pretty weird comparison. Like Battlefield 4 having a more indepth inventory than ME2 (as far as I'm concerned getting rid of looting was brilliant, dumping most of the inventory mechanics in the same move was not, and they somehow got cold feet and replaced looting items with looting ammo).

[o Ventus]

While companies like OBsidian and InXile are setting records crowdfunding RPGs because publishers think the genre's dead 

 

Let's not even pretend this is a good precedent to follow. The only reason Obsidian and co. are doing setting any records with crowdfunding are because they're the only kind-of big name companies who are doing it. If for some inexplicable reason Bioware were to go to Kickstarter for the next DA game or a new Jade Empire, for example, I guarantee they would make more money than Obsidian ever did. And let's not pretend that setting a crowdfunding record is a massive achievement. When a big triple-A game like Call of Duty can cost several hundred million dollars to make (and consistently make massive profit), compared to a game like the new Psychonauts 2 asking for only $3 million, the sheer comparison of scale just doesn't work. A game like Pillars of Eternity made by a smaller team and selling 100,000 copies means nothing when compared to a game made by a team of 500 and sells a hundred million copies.

 

It's like bragging about winning the local high school gridiron football tournament to someone with a Super Bowl ring.

[o Ventus]

Again, you are looking at Kickstarter numbers as final sales numbers, and are comparing AAA quality with games that are sold at half that price.

(sometimes less) Many people do not join kickstarters for many valid reasons, and later buy those games when they come out.

 

And in my experience, you rarely get a meaningful discount on a kickstarter, and anyway, if you compare that to how much it will cost to

take a loan or an investment, the discount is probably the cheaper choice.

 

In any case my point was that there is enough interest in this field, hell, Skyrim was an RPG.

 

The only reason why all those isometric RPG's seem like they failed if you compare them to an AAA game, is because they are produced at

a fraction of the cost of the average AAA title, and therefore can not boast many AAA qualities, which in turn causes many potential buyers

to lose interest because they are "not shiny enough".

 

Bottom line: The market is likely deep enough for at least one or two more AAA SP RPG franchises.

 

This is disingenuous to the point of almost being an outright lie, and so constrained in its reasoning. While the low budget is most certainly a reason, citing it as THE reason is dishonest. Pillars of Eternity, for example, was not exactly a small game for people who use Steam. It had quite a lot of front-page exposure on the storefront, yet still only a small number of people bought it. Same goes for a game like Divinity: Original Sin (which I did buy because I wanted a new old-school RPG). I like those kinds of games, but even I'll admit that the isometric style is a niche, and when combined with admittedly archaic mechanics like dice-rolling to determine hit chance, not many people will like them because it often times is not very fun. It has less to do with "not shiny enough" than you make it look.

 

Some things just aren't enjoyed by a majority of people.

[SnakeCode]

Let's not even pretend this is a good precedent to follow. The only reason Obsidian and co. are doing setting any records with crowdfunding are because they're the only kind-of big name companies who are doing it. If for some inexplicable reason Bioware were to go to Kickstarter for the next DA game or a new Jade Empire, for example, I guarantee they would make more money than Obsidian ever did. And let's not pretend that setting a crowdfunding record is a massive achievement. When a big triple-A game like Call of Duty can cost several hundred million dollars to make (and consistently make massive profit), compared to a game like the new Psychonauts 2 asking for only $3 million, the sheer comparison of scale just doesn't work. A game like Pillars of Eternity made by a smaller team and selling 100,000 copies means nothing when compared to a game made by a team of 500 and sells a hundred million copies.

 

It's like bragging about winning the local high school gridiron football tournament to someone with a Super Bowl ring.

 

Psychonauts 2 just seems all kinds of dodgy. Schafer is asking for around 3 mil now, but he asked Notch for around 12-18 mil (reports vary) to help with the game's funding. Not to mention that he and Double Fine  are on the advisory board of fig, the site they're using for the crowdfunding. So he's likely going to get some money going into his personal bank account everytime someone donates towards the game. All undisclosed of course. Also, given Double Fine's awful reputation for past crowdfunded projects and their budget management in general and red flags are appearing all over the place.

[o Ventus]

Psychonauts 2 just seems all kinds of dodgy. Schafer is asking for around 3 mil now, but he asked Notch for around 12-18 mil (reports vary) to help with the game's funding. Not to mention that he and Double Fine  are on the advisory board of fig, the site they're using for the crowdfunding. So he's likely going to get some money going into his personal bank account everytime someone donates towards the game. All undisclosed of course. Also, given Double Fine's awful reputation for past crowdfunded projects and their budget management in general and red flags are appearing all over the place.

 

Oh, don't get me wrong, I detest Tim Schafer and have no intention whatsoever of donating to his project. In fact I actively tell people NOT to go for it. I just used that as an example because it's a sort-of prominent and recent example of a game being crowdfunded,

[RZIBARA]

Now this is a bigger problem for me since my favorite type of game is the rpg.  But looking at this year, the only triple a rpg on the pc was the witcher 3, and I can't get into that series because of Geralts fugly face.

 

 

stopped reading there. What are you, 12?

 

Also, Fallout 4 and Bloodborne?

[Zekka]

I would have never said that, looking at Mass Effect 3...

 

ooooopsss

ME3 is not an rpg though

[rashie]

Let's not even pretend this is a good precedent to follow. The only reason Obsidian and co. are doing setting any records with crowdfunding are because they're the only kind-of big name companies who are doing it. If for some inexplicable reason Bioware were to go to Kickstarter for the next DA game or a new Jade Empire, for example, I guarantee they would make more money than Obsidian ever did. And let's not pretend that setting a crowdfunding record is a massive achievement. When a big triple-A game like Call of Duty can cost several hundred million dollars to make (and consistently make massive profit), compared to a game like the new Psychonauts 2 asking for only $3 million, the sheer comparison of scale just doesn't work. A game like Pillars of Eternity made by a smaller team and selling 100,000 copies means nothing when compared to a game made by a team of 500 and sells a hundred million copies.

 

It's like bragging about winning the local high school gridiron football tournament to someone with a Super Bowl ring.

I kinda doubt Bioware would be as successful on kickstarter if they weren't making a smaller budget niche game akin to their older style, considering the kind of games they now makes requires a budget akin to what Star Citizen has attained through crowd-funding since leaving the platform, and that, is highly unlikely.

 

What was being proposed there was essentially an AAA game in a actually long dead genre even though there obviously were a lot of fans starved for new games, and it didn't outpace Obsidian by much until after it had continued the funding on its own website.

[mrjack]

I'm finding it hard to follow all this Kickstarter talk or what exactly constitutes an RPG but as for the OP and his desire to see more, I completely agree.

 

I wish there were a Bioware Clone company making Bioware-style games in the off years. No-one is advocating for more product from Bioware than they can handle (leading to a drop in quality) but surely someone else must be able to take the reigns and attempt to make a Mass-Effect knock-off to fill the gap.

 

Spiders seems to be trying the hardest to replicate that Bioware style but they're missing the key ingredient of excellent characters performed by excellent voice actors. Bound By Flame is so awful in that regard I played it for 20 minutes, turned it off and asked for a refund because I knew I would never play it again... and I got it on sale for less than 4 quid. I could not give that company my money.

 

The Witcher 3 looked awesome but not being able to customise my character is a deal breaker for me. Even if I let that slide, Geralt is the worst. I can't even stand to hear him speak and all his responses are "douche bag" or "slightly less douche bag".

 

Alpha protocol could have been amazing if (again) it had a customizable PC and polished up the rough edges.

 

Deus Ex HR was a great game even though it broke two of my will-not-buy rules (fixed PC and forced first person).

 

Since Fallout went all Mass-Effect-y, it's much more enjoyable than Skyrim and the like. The voice acting is good but not great and there aren't really any cinematic sequences which brings the overall quality down (imo) but it scratches my RPG itch and my urge to mod.

 

All of you old school RPG purists will look down on me but this recent trend of making old-timey isometrics and trying to sell it to me like it's the greatest thing that ever happened to gaming is making my head hurt. I bought DOS:EE a few days ago and even though I used to like that sort of game when it was cutting edge (the old Final Fantasy games particularly), I guess I'm just spoiled by all the shiny tech that's available today that blows my mind graphically and cinematically*. Also, I don't think I could ever go back to turn based combat. It just makes me sleepy. I guess I've been converted to that action-RPG fan that everyone hates for ruining their games. My favourite game combat wise is Dragons Dogma.

 

That's a point! It's being released for PC in January. You should check it out if you haven't yet. I can't wait.

 

*Chrome is telling me that this is not a word but I disagree.

[Innocent Bystander]

While not AAA, they're making a bit of a comeback with Kickstarter stuff like Divinity, Shadowrun, etc.
 
RTS on the other hand...

RTSs have this problem, that they're next to impossible to effectively control with your average console controller, so most developers/publishers just ignore them, because PC exclusive AAA games just don't exist outside of Blizzard.

For the same reason we get RPGs like ME or Fallout 4 instead of "true" RPG games. Also times change and people today aren't interested in too complicated games, so Fallout had traits, skills, perks, level cap and power armor far, far into the game and Fallout 4 has perks, no level cap and first power armor 2 minutes and 36 seconds after exiting tutorial area.

Most sad part? I'm oldschool gamer (since ´80s last century), yet last time I've tried EoB style dungeon crawler without automapping and quest markers, I gave up inside first hour.

[Laughing_Man]

This is disingenuous to the point of almost being an outright lie, and so constrained in its reasoning. While the low budget is most certainly a reason, citing it as THE reason is dishonest. Pillars of Eternity, for example, was not exactly a small game for people who use Steam. It had quite a lot of front-page exposure on the storefront, yet still only a small number of people bought it. Same goes for a game like Divinity: Original Sin (which I did buy because I wanted a new old-school RPG). I like those kinds of games, but even I'll admit that the isometric style is a niche, and when combined with admittedly archaic mechanics like dice-rolling to determine hit chance, not many people will like them because it often times is not very fun. It has less to do with "not shiny enough" than you make it look.

 

Some things just aren't enjoyed by a majority of people.

 

Have I killed your cat? Ate you cookie? I am open to the possibility that I might be wrong, but I am certainly not intentionally lying.

 

In any case, you are missing the point entirely.

 

There is more than one reason for the difference in sales numbers between an AAA game and something like PoE or Shadowrun Returns.

 

And true, these games are niche games. However, they still prove that there is a great interest in RPG's, even those that are decidedly not shiny

and use somewhat archaic gameplay elements. I posit that the sales numbers on these games are impressive, considering how niche and unassuming they are.

 

When you add this to the data we have on the relative success of DA:I, and the even more successful "The Witcher 3", what you are left with

seems to indicate that a large part of the market is very interested in games with RPG elements (and to a lesser degree, even the more archaic interpretation of RPG's), and that interest is probably enough to sustain more AAA games of this style.