209 réponses à ce sujet

[o Ventus]

Branching dialogue paths isn't a bad place to start for a definition. I've usually considered anything that lets me decide how the character wants to behave or choose in a specific situation to be an rpg, but then I also know there are relative degrees. The Witcher is a fun game, even if it's not everything I want out of an rpg. I'm not going to start declaring that it isn't an rpg because of that, though. That seems silly. 

 

What about all those RPGs that don't have branching dialogue? Like the entire Final Fantasy series, or Pokemon, or Diablo.

[Lady Artifice]

What about all those RPGs that don't have branching dialogue? Like the entire Final Fantasy series, or Pokemon, or Diablo.

 

I went on to say...

 

  

 

I suppose I understand that. Ultimately I was trying to say that what I think defines an rpg is diverging choices. 

 

 

In retrospect, I probably should have said "typifies" rather than "defines," because I still think that it's possible to summarize the qualities that usually indicate an rpg, as long as we aren't overly strict in applying the term. 

 

And really, I was more commenting on the idea that we can individually define RPGs by whether they deliver what we each personally want them to.

 

I.e. "Mass Effect 3 isn't a real rpg because of all the auto dialogue," or "The Witcher isn't a real rpg because you're always playing a set character." 

 

I'm mildly protesting the trend of "game I like = RPG, game I don't like=/=RPG."

[Zekka]

Would a good start be just playing a role that is acknowledged in game and the player has choices and consequences within the context of gameplay and/or narrative?

[Commander Rpg]

I'd say chocies are a staple of an RPG.  But over time the choices have changed.

Being able to do a bloody quest that mattered, not going from a random dialogue heard somewhere to clicking somewhere else and turning back, is the fulcrum of the rpg genre. Or, at least, of a bad rpg like ME3 confronted with rpgs since Eye of the Beholder.

[Gothfather]

Still doesn't change the fact that they aren't as popular as they used to be. There used to be quite a bit more every year. You know, in the 90s. Lol. And they're still more expensive to make than most other genres.

wait what?

 

Since Nov 2014 to Nov 2015 There was a AAA RPG released from the three main AAA rpg studios, Bethesda, Bioware and CDPR. Dragon age: Inquisition had record sales, the fastest selling game in Bioware history I believe, Witcher 3 was a sales breaker for CDPR, and Fallout 4 had such a huge demand that they shipped more copies around the world than any other Bethesda title. I am not sure how you can say that RPG are not as popular as in the past when we are seeing record sales this past year. I am not even counting any of the indie titles that sold well either.

 

If your premiss was correct wouldn't we see softer sales vs. record sales?

[Gothfather]

First time I see someone mention R. Scott Bakker on a forum  *has a huge nerd moment* ... *manages to eventually calm down*

 

 

Oddly enough, my experience was the complete opposite. Story was great, especially towards the end, but I quickly grew tired of the gameplay. I just don't think it works to take the Dungeons & Dragons tabletop system (multiple people play their own class, often utilise them in interesting and unpredictable ways) and transfer it to a video game like that (single-player, pre-determined solutions to every encounter). Combat ends up being rinse-and-repeat using the exact same skills over and over, except for the toughest battles where you have to adjust slightly. And maybe I just don't have the time for games I used to, but trying to get a grasp of Priests and Wizards and Chanters and Ciphers... I finished the game despite the gameplay, not because of it.

That said, I liked Neverwinter Nights, which uses much the same system, so maybe it's just a phase.

 

Another possibility is that what you found acceptable game play wise in 2002 was no longer acceptable in 2015.

 

The bar for game play changes as games innovate, and while some systems can have increased longevity because of nostalgic bias eventually this dies off. If RPGs went back to their Zork roots I would not be happy, yet in early 80s I loved the text based rpgs and later muds when i was part of the BBS community. 

 

Just a possible theory as to why you liked NWN but disliked POE game play.

[Zekka]

Another possibility is that what you found acceptable game play wise in 2002 was no longer acceptable in 2015.

 

The bar for game play changes as games innovate, and while some systems can have increased longevity because of nostalgic bias eventually this dies off. If RPGs went back to their Zork roots I would not be happy, yet in early 80s I loved the text based rpgs and later muds when i was part of the BBS community. 

 

Just a possible theory as to why you liked NWN but disliked POE game play.

I didn't play rpgs back then but I didn't like POE gameplay or story either. 

[TheChris92]

True this is more of an off-topic thi - OH WAIT!

Off-topic? What is this strange alien language? Unless of course you meant to say the recycling bin. Now stop talking about the off-topic as that is off-topic and you should take that discussion to the off-topic section!

[Commander Rpg]

Off-topic? What is this strange alien language?

Money language is the only language they get.

[o Ventus]

Would a good start be just playing a role that is acknowledged in game and the player has choices and consequences within the context of gameplay and/or narrative?

 

This would leave out a great deal of JRPGs and MMORPGs then, at least as far as narrative choices are concerned. I think broadening it out to choice in the context of gameplay is widening the net a but too much. Just about every single video game to ever exist offers at least SOME choice in the context of gameplay, if not narrative. Even games that hardly even qualify as "games" like Dear Esther or Gone Home have this in at least a minute fashion. I think it would also help as to what we define as a "choice" here, because it can range from something as simple as choosing to use a pistol over an assault rifle in a shooter game, to something like the Virmire choice in ME1.

[o Ventus]

I went on to say...

 

 

 

In retrospect, I probably should have said "typifies" rather than "defines," because I still think that it's possible to summarize the qualities that usually indicate an rpg, as long as we aren't overly strict in applying the term. 

 

And really, I was more commenting on the idea that we can individually define RPGs by whether they deliver what we each personally want them to.

 

I.e. "Mass Effect 3 isn't a real rpg because of all the auto dialogue," or "The Witcher isn't a real rpg because you're always playing a set character." 

 

I'm mildly protesting the trend of "game I like = RPG, game I don't like=/=RPG."

 

Fair enough.

[Lady Artifice]

It practically designs itself. 

 

Though I think Arkham's gameplay needs a lot of iteration. 

 

I thoroughly agree, by the way. Though strangely I've only just gotten a little over halfway through Arkham Knight. The fight with that ridiculous cloudburst tank took me way more tries than it should have. 

 

Just reached a part that I found particularly very surprising and somewhat upsetting. Though, I probably should have seen it coming. 

[Nattfare]

I thoroughly agree, by the way. Though strangely I've only just gotten a little over halfway through Arkham Knight. The fight with that ridiculous cloudburst tank took me way more tries than it should have. 
 
Just reached a part that I found particularly very surprising and somewhat upsetting. Though, I probably should have seen it coming.

Spoiler

Wrong game and setting perhaps? I'm just guessing here.

[Lady Artifice]

Spoiler

Wrong game and setting perhaps? I'm just guessing here.

 

No, I love everything about the game, but..

 

Spoiler

 

My favorite villain died. 

 

[Nattfare]

Spoiler

Robin? No, wait, he wouldn't make a very good villain and no one has him as a favorite anyway.

[Battlebloodmage]

No, I love everything about the game, but..

 

Spoiler

 

My favorite villain died. 

 

Me, too. I was so sad when Batman killed off goon #44. 

[Lady Artifice]

Spoiler

Robin? No, wait, he wouldn't make a very good villain and no one has him as a favorite anyway.

 

Spoiler

 

Poison Ivy, of course! 

 

At least Gotham looks prettier now, with all these plants and floating things. 

 

[Ahglock]

Why do comic book games and movies feel the need to kill off villains. It's so against the grain for the comics they are supposed to represent. Enjoy the genre you are in damn it. I don't need it turned into standard action movie #5.

[o Ventus]

Well,since we're talking about Batman, has anyone seen Under the Red Hood? It's one of the DC Animated movies, and the second-best in my opinion (THE best being Justice League: The Flashpoint Paradox). It follows the same basic premise as Batman: A Death in the Family and Batman: Under the Hood, albeit with the necessary changes to make the story fit an 80-minute runtime. Under the Hood is one of my favorite Batman stories and one of the darkest moments for the Joker, and the movie has probably the most bittersweet finale to any DC movie I've seen.

 

John DiMaggio does a pretty good Joker, but he's nowhere near Mark Hamill. Neill Patrick Harris is great as Nightwing, but he has so little screentime. He's basically only there to beat up some thugs and help Batman fight off Amazo, and that's pretty much it. The movie does spoil its own twist though, in a way.

Spoiler

The Red Hood is Jason Todd

, but the movie practically assaults you with this information via the flashbacks.

 

edit: Nor a movie, but Marvel Heroes is a pretty fun game. It's a free to play ARPG in the vein of Diablo (David Brevik, one of the lead designers of Diablo 2, is on the team for Heroes), but with a Marvel coating and in an MMO format with hub worlds and instances and everything. You can play every hero in the game up to level 10 (out of 60, with each hero having their own set of levels), and you can unlock heroes by either buying them with real currency or using in-game currency (and the in-game currency is actually easy to get a hold of, I've never felt compelled to spend money to get more heroes, plus there's a very early quest that actually gives you in-game currency for the express purpose of buying your second hero, plus you get loads of currency from the daily login bonuses), and you get 1 free hero unlock after creating your account. Aside from new heroes, the only thing that is actually available for real money are cosmetic costumes, which are all taken from other periods of the hero's history (and there are Marvel Cinematic Universe skins for heroes who are in movies). I started with Black Panther and unlocked Venom later. There's close to 100 playable characters (as of now, with more on the way), and just about everyone in the Marvel-616 canon shows up either as a playable character or as an NPC (sometimes both, depending on the character). Some heroes/villains who are not yet playable are available as team-ups, where they'll tag alongside you and assist you in fighting, with their own power sets.

 

It's on Steam, and I do highly recommend it. They relaunched the game this year as Marvel Heroes 2015, since the original incarnation was rather poorly received, and they have since updated the game's systems to be much, much better.

[Lady Artifice]

Well,since we're talking about Batman, has anyone seen Under the Red Hood? It's one of the DC Animated movies, and the second-best in my opinion (THE best being Justice League: The Flashpoint Paradox). It follows the same basic premise as Batman: A Death in the Family and Batman: Under the Hood, albeit with the necessary changes to make the story fit an 80-minute runtime. Under the Hood is one of my favorite Batman stories and one of the darkest moments for the Joker, and the movie has probably the most bittersweet finale to any DC movie I've seen.

 

John DiMaggio does a pretty good Joker, but he's nowhere near Mark Hamill. Neill Patrick Harris is great as Nightwing, but he has so little screentime. He's basically only there to beat up some thugs and help Batman fight off Amazo, and that's pretty much it. The movie does spoil its own twist though, in a way.

Spoiler

The Red Hood is Jason Todd

, but the movie practically assaults you with this information via the flashbacks.

 

I loved it at first watch, though Hamill really does put other Jokers to shame. I'm very lukewarm toward that version after playing through the Arkham series, which might not be completely fair to Dimaggio, because I don't really think anyone else can compete.

 

Neil was perfect as Nightwing, and I think the film would have been better for including more of him.

[Zekka]

This would leave out a great deal of JRPGs and MMORPGs then, at least as far as narrative choices are concerned. I think broadening it out to choice in the context of gameplay is widening the net a but too much. Just about every single video game to ever exist offers at least SOME choice in the context of gameplay, if not narrative. Even games that hardly even qualify as "games" like Dear Esther or Gone Home have this in at least a minute fashion. I think it would also help as to what we define as a "choice" here, because it can range from something as simple as choosing to use a pistol over an assault rifle in a shooter game, to something like the Virmire choice in ME1.

I don't count switching weapons as that choice. I wouldn't mind if MMORPG'S were excluded

[Il Divo]

Well,since we're talking about Batman, has anyone seen Under the Red Hood? It's one of the DC Animated movies, and the second-best in my opinion (THE best being Justice League: The Flashpoint Paradox). It follows the same basic premise as Batman: A Death in the Family and Batman: Under the Hood, albeit with the necessary changes to make the story fit an 80-minute runtime. Under the Hood is one of my favorite Batman stories and one of the darkest moments for the Joker, and the movie has probably the most bittersweet finale to any DC movie I've seen.

 

John DiMaggio does a pretty good Joker, but he's nowhere near Mark Hamill. Neill Patrick Harris is great as Nightwing, but he has so little screentime. He's basically only there to beat up some thugs and help Batman fight off Amazo, and that's pretty much it. The movie does spoil its own twist though, in a way.

Spoiler

The Red Hood is Jason Todd

, but the movie practically assaults you with this information via the flashbacks.

 

edit: Nor a movie, but Marvel Heroes is a pretty fun game. It's a free to play ARPG in the vein of Diablo (David Brevik, one of the lead designers of Diablo 2, is on the team for Heroes), but with a Marvel coating and in an MMO format with hub worlds and instances and everything. You can play every hero in the game up to level 10 (out of 60, with each hero having their own set of levels), and you can unlock heroes by either buying them with real currency or using in-game currency (and the in-game currency is actually easy to get a hold of, I've never felt compelled to spend money to get more heroes, plus there's a very early quest that actually gives you in-game currency for the express purpose of buying your second hero, plus you get loads of currency from the daily login bonuses), and you get 1 free hero unlock after creating your account. Aside from new heroes, the only thing that is actually available for real money are cosmetic costumes, which are all taken from other periods of the hero's history (and there are Marvel Cinematic Universe skins for heroes who are in movies). I started with Black Panther and unlocked Venom later. There's close to 100 playable characters (as of now, with more on the way), and just about everyone in the Marvel-616 canon shows up either as a playable character or as an NPC (sometimes both, depending on the character). Some heroes/villains who are not yet playable are available as team-ups, where they'll tag alongside you and assist you in fighting, with their own power sets.

 

It's on Steam, and I do highly recommend it. They relaunched the game this year as Marvel Heroes 2015, since the original incarnation was rather poorly received, and they have since updated the game's systems to be much, much better.

 

I loved the Nolan Trilogy, but Under the Red Hood completely blew me away. I think it helped that they removed the more questionable framework of Jason Todd's resurrection from the comics, and just chalked it all up to a Lazarus pit. 

 

If I remember right, in the original comics, the Lazarus Pit just helps heal Jason, and his "resurrection" is from Superboy Prime punching reality. 

[Iakus]

 and his "resurrection" is from Superboy Prime punching reality. 

And this is why I don't follow comics anymore 

[Il Divo]

And this is why I don't follow comics anymore 

 

It's hard to say it with a straight face. I try to focus on individual collections (the trade paperbacks), instead of following ongoing issues. At least I can find out in advance how ridiculous the story gets that way.

 

It's also why I much prefer Watchmen and Neil Gaiman's Sandman; they have an ending point, so it doesn't feel quite like the writers are doing everything they can to simply elongate the story-line ad infinitum.

 

That said: there are still some great Batman stories out there which I would highly recommend.  

[Hair Serious Business]

JADE EMPIRE 2!

ALL HAIL JADE EMPIRE 2!

WE NEED JADE EMPIRE 2!

BW GIVE US JADE EMPIRE 2!

MAKE JADE EMPIRE 2 ALREADY!

JADE EMPIRE 2 MY BODY IS READY!

 

And did I already said there needs to be Jade Empire 2 xD