Aller au contenu

Photo

One Year Later: Who did you really choose to rule Orlais?


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
102 réponses à ce sujet

#76
Jaison1986

Jaison1986
  • Members
  • 3 316 messages

Yup. I was left with the odd impression that I was supposed to know and care more than I did, which made the whole thing fall rather flat. None of the three struck me as remotely trustworthy or sympathetic (Trespasser proves how true that is), and Celene and Briala gave me whiplash with how fast they went from being all but enemies to being creepily gushy-goo with each other. In the end I picked them anyway because it seemed to have at least the possibility for some social progress for the common people. That was pretty much my #1 concern during the game: making the lives of those who don't have power at least a little better. Gaspard is a chevalier, and going by what we've been told about them, all I can say is "good riddance filth". Having him sponsor our attendance squicked me out enough.

 

Celene is even more filth then Gaspard. At least the novels show Gaspard to have some semblance of honor left. Celene is a snake that will grab at every opportunity no matter how low it is. From murdering her own lover parents for her convenience to burning down a entire district full of civilians to appease some worthless nobles. Gaspard is actually better in that regard. He appease no nobles if he is in charge. He puts that scum in their place. Too bad he will never really get rid of the game. Orlais would crumble before the nobles end this mindless futility.



#77
Qun00

Qun00
  • Members
  • 4 386 messages

Does it matter that Celene had no choice? That the elven rebellion was always going to end in a massacre? That Gaspard, in the same position, would have done far worse than burn one alienage?
They still love each other, or else it would take a lot more than Celene hanging on to some old elven trinket to reunite them.


Yes, Celene had no choice if she wanted to protect her so precious reputation. And I never defended Gaspard, so what he would've done is irrelevant.

They do. Then again, Harley loves the Joker.

#78
mgagne

mgagne
  • Members
  • 164 messages

In my Inquisitor's mind Celene has ruled successfully for many years; she has fostered prosperity through diplomacy and trade rather than engaging in costly military adventures (especially after what happened in Ferelden).  She has the tacit support of most of the nobility and while the fate of the common people is never really a major concern for the aristocracy, the mere absence of major wars must have a trickle down effect.  He is sympathetic towards Briala and her avowed goals but she represents a threat to stability nonetheless - whether ruling through either the Grand Duke or the Empress.  So in his mind there's only one choice: Celene must retain her throne without any opposition. 

 

In strategic terms this is the best possible outcome: without their leader those nobles who supported Gaspard will fall back in line, helping to pacify Orlais.  But since many in the ranks believed in the Grand Duke's cause Celene will naturally rely more strongly on the Inquisition to offer military support against her own army if necessary - thus binding her closely to your cause (which is why the Orlesians' stance in trespasser was so jarring to me).

 

I tried Gaspard once and I felt awful aftewards, like I had renegaded on my word and betrayed someone who counted on me.  I haven't read any of the novels so this was an unbiased choice.


  • Mikoto8472 et TheHedgeKnight aiment ceci

#79
sjsharp2011

sjsharp2011
  • Members
  • 2 676 messages

Depends on the character I'm RP'ing but usually Gaspard/Briala rule together at least in my e4lven playthroughs because my elven Inquisitors generally care for their people and want them to be treated right and not as second class citizens that are stuiffed in alienages. The only way they can see this ending is if an elf is in charge.



#80
Mikoto8472

Mikoto8472
  • Members
  • 238 messages

In my Inquisitor's mind Celene has ruled successfully for many years; she has fostered prosperity through diplomacy and trade rather than engaging in costly military adventures (especially after what happened in Ferelden).  She has the tacit support of most of the nobility and while the fate of the common people is never really a major concern for the aristocracy, the mere absence of major wars must have a trickle down effect.  He is sympathetic towards Briala and her avowed goals but she represents a threat to stability nonetheless - whether ruling through either the Grand Duke or the Empress.  So in his mind there's only one choice: Celene must retain her throne without any opposition. 

 

In strategic terms this is the best possible outcome: without their leader those nobles who supported Gaspard will fall back in line, helping to pacify Orlais.  But since many in the ranks believed in the Grand Duke's cause Celene will naturally rely more strongly on the Inquisition to offer military support against her own army if necessary - thus binding her closely to your cause (which is why the Orlesians' stance in trespasser was so jarring to me).

 

I tried Gaspard once and I felt awful aftewards, like I had renegaded on my word and betrayed someone who counted on me.  I haven't read any of the novels so this was an unbiased choice.

 

 

This, almost exactly this.

 

I haven't read The Masked Empire so I came into this part of the game with my female warrior Trevelyan, they were all strangers with unfamiliar faces and unknown backgrounds. I got the very distinct and strong impression that I was supposed to care about these three people and intimately know their background. I picked up the basics pretty quickly.

 

While my Trevelyan felt some sympathy to Briala, her goals and the plight of the elves in general, right now she was a threat to order and stability. There are too many threats and dangerous to Thedas to allow Orlais to be distracted by the city Elves. Celene though already ruled Orlais for years, she prefers diplomacy over force, she has subtle approval from nobles and common folk alike. 

 

So putting her on the throne alone and uncontested with the subtle strength of the Inquisition behind her seemed the only sensible and logical choice for my Trevelyan Inquisitor. I'm still pretty pleased with my choice now.



#81
NKnight7

NKnight7
  • Members
  • 1 147 messages

I usually just blackmail all three, I like the outcome just because the Inquisitor has the upper hand on the three of them.



#82
midnight tea

midnight tea
  • Members
  • 4 819 messages

Celene is even more filth then Gaspard. At least the novels show Gaspard to have some semblance of honor left. Celene is a snake that will grab at every opportunity no matter how low it is. From murdering her own lover parents for her convenience to burning down a entire district full of civilians to appease some worthless nobles. Gaspard is actually better in that regard. He appease no nobles if he is in charge. He puts that scum in their place. Too bad he will never really get rid of the game. Orlais would crumble before the nobles end this mindless futility.

 

So you would sacrifice the country's progress just because one of the candidates has "semblance of honor left".

 

I mean - isn't it Harrowmont vs. Bhelen again? Harrowmont was, by the looks of it, a honorable dwarf who hardly ever struck an opponent below the belt, while Bhelen plotted and went even as far as killing his two brothers (and perhaps his father) in order to secure himself on the throne. Yet it was Harrowmont's rule that proved ineffective in the end - by sticking to empty phrases like "honor" and "tradition" - he's only made the life of the casteless worse (possibly the most oppressed and desperate group of people we know, suffering senselessly because of rigid dwarven traditions), favored the nobility and eventually died poisoned, while destabilizing Orzammar and making it vulnerable even more than it was.

 

Bhelen on the other hand may as well go into history books remembered as tyrant, but the positive effect of his rules - recognizing casteless and giving them more right, bringing in reforms and tying in relationship with the surface - may as well save bring Orzammar from the brink of destruction.

 

It's somewhat similar, if more complex situation here - who do you prefer? Someone who plots and murders, but also reforms and tries to bring people together, or someone who's 'honorable' in a very narrow sense, but his ideas for ruling the country in the long-run may as well prove disastrous, both for the Empire and people caught up in wars Gaspard was planning even before he had opportunity to make a claim to the throne? Unlike Celene, Gaspard has little idea what he wants for Orlais - as his uncle said: he was told all his life that one day he's going to rule and he's simply fighting for his birthright. That's about it. Then he'll just "play" ruling the Empire, the one way he knows.


  • Barquiel aime ceci

#83
Master Warder Z_

Master Warder Z_
  • Members
  • 19 819 messages
Gaspard has a idea of what he wants Orlais to be. It isn't expanded upon greatly in game but neither are Celene's goals or the elf. He wants the days of Orlais being a military power that even the Qunari or Imperium had to respect back. He wants their little province across the mountains back.

He wants Orlais to be more then just the center of arts and culture in Thedas but its militant superpower. And given what's on the horizon, that may very well come to pass, possible Qunari invasions aside Orlais is the mightiest nation in Thedas, massive wealth, its great size and its undeniable military power.

War will be the tool that shall recreate the Empire of Drakon from the low that the Empire of the Lion has left it.

#84
GoldenGail3

GoldenGail3
  • Members
  • 3 797 messages

Gaspard has a idea of what he wants Orlais to be. It isn't expanded upon greatly in game but neither are Celene's goals or the elf. He wants the days of Orlais being a military power that even the Qunari or Imperium had to respect back. He wants their little province across the mountains back.

He wants Orlais to be more then just the center of arts and culture in Thedas but its militant superpower. And given what's on the horizon, that may very well come to pass, possible Qunari invasions aside Orlais is the mightiest nation in Thedas, massive wealth, its great size and its undeniable military power.

War will be the tool that shall recreate the Empire of Drakon from the low that the Empire of the Lion has left it.

He wants Ferelden! Ferelden doesn't belong to the Orlaisans! - My Queen Cousland about Gaspard. Yeah, i don't trust Gaspard, he will try to take over Ferelden once more, which is what i don't really want. Plus, i hate there accents too. I wish they'd just shut up, and image the Ferelden's getting there horrible accent? Alistair will be killed, too if Gaspard rules, or at least i'd assume that once Gaspard took over Ferelden (what if senacior), that Alistair's head would be on a stick to all those loyal Ferelden's who support Alistair's reign. I don't think Highever would alright about it, too. So i image the two Cousland's (my canon is Queen-Consort Cousland, who romanced Alistair), wouldn't be happy if Alistair died though. I really just want the Cousland's to live through anything, but if Gaspard ruled, i don't think either of the Cousland's would survive :(  



#85
Master Warder Z_

Master Warder Z_
  • Members
  • 19 819 messages
Ugh but Orlais will bring culture and proper governance to Fereldan!

#86
GoldenGail3

GoldenGail3
  • Members
  • 3 797 messages

Ugh but Orlais will bring culture and proper governance to Fereldan!


No! They'll all become Orlaisans and then it'll be the end of the world! :)

#87
Qun00

Qun00
  • Members
  • 4 386 messages

Ugh but Orlais will bring culture and proper governance to Fereldan!


Which Fereldan? There are so many of them.
  • springacres aime ceci

#88
Master Warder Z_

Master Warder Z_
  • Members
  • 19 819 messages

Which Fereldan? There are so many of them.


The 'country'

#89
Iakus

Iakus
  • Members
  • 30 309 messages

This, almost exactly this.

 

I haven't read The Masked Empire so I came into this part of the game with my female warrior Trevelyan, they were all strangers with unfamiliar faces and unknown backgrounds. I got the very distinct and strong impression that I was supposed to care about these three people and intimately know their background. I picked up the basics pretty quickly.

 

While my Trevelyan felt some sympathy to Briala, her goals and the plight of the elves in general, right now she was a threat to order and stability. There are too many threats and dangerous to Thedas to allow Orlais to be distracted by the city Elves. Celene though already ruled Orlais for years, she prefers diplomacy over force, she has subtle approval from nobles and common folk alike. 

 

So putting her on the throne alone and uncontested with the subtle strength of the Inquisition behind her seemed the only sensible and logical choice for my Trevelyan Inquisitor. I'm still pretty pleased with my choice now.

 

 

The Masked Empire established that

 

Celene is interested in elevating the common folk, promoting arts and learning, maintaining good relations with the neighboring kingdoms.  However, she is also willing to put aside her ideals in the interest of maintaining power.  She's a player of the Game and, while she may feel bad about it, she will remove pawns as needed to show strength.  Including murdering her own servants.  All for the "greater good" of course.  Her word is good only as long as it doesn't overly inconvenience her

 

Gaspard is a chevalier, but not as bad as some.  He's not into murder, rape, treating peasants like worse than dirt, etc.  He has a strong sense of honor and fair play.  He despises the Game and treats his people fairly.  He even implies that if elves were allowed into the military, he'd treat them just as well as his human troops.  He even treats his prisoners well (as far as prisoners go, of course).  On the down side, he has poor political or diplomatic skills, preferring to focus on military action.  In addition, he longs to expand Orlais' sphere of influence, and has made no secret that if he were Emperor, he'd want Ferelden back, and would push on Nevarra and Tevinter as well.  He's not stupid, but more a man of action than thought.  

 

Briala Is interested in the elves, first and foremost.  She was Celene's lover (and was in love her), and an advocate for the elves before suffering multiple betrayals at Celene's hands.  She has very good reason to be hostile to her.  During the civil war, she focused her efforts on disrupting both sides so the elves could consolidate their own position

 

So in the end we have three very imperfect choices:  We have the peaceful but treacherous diplomat.  We have the honest but warmongering general, and the elf who's only focus is the elves even at the expense of human lives.


  • nightscrawl et SwobyJ aiment ceci

#90
nightscrawl

nightscrawl
  • Members
  • 7 475 messages

That's kinda metagaming isn't it?
 
Frankly, one of DAI's problems is unless you've read The Masked Empire, there's not a whole lot to get invested in any faction.

 
I think The Masked Empire, like any of the ancillary materials, is a fun way for the player to get more exposure to the world. It's also useful to see events that take place beyond the player's sphere of influence. BUT, I generally don't think that such information should be used -- or only be used sparingly and reasonably -- to make actual in-game decisions, particularly when the player would have no knowledge of most of those events.
 
 

And rightfully so.
 
Elves have no business meddling in the politics of the Empire.

 
Uhm... you do realize they LIVE there, right? All of those elves in alienages, or working as servants, absolutely have an interest in how the empire is run because it affects their lives.
 
 

So in the end we have three very imperfect choices:  We have the peaceful but treacherous diplomat.  We have the honest but warmongering general, and the elf who's only focus is the elves even at the expense of human lives.


Yepper. I quite like the decision because it is one of those that is heavily RP based. And we can see from the responses in this very thread that people have all sorts of reasons for making their choice.



#91
Iakus

Iakus
  • Members
  • 30 309 messages

 
I think The Masked Empire, like any of the ancillary materials, is a fun way for the player to get more exposure to the world. It's also useful to see events that take place beyond the player's sphere of influence. BUT, I generally don't think that such information should be used -- or only be used sparingly and reasonably -- to make actual in-game decisions, particularly when the player would have no knowledge of most of those events.
 

In theory, yes.  But in this case I can't help but wonder if Halamshiral had a lot of material cut because the three people we were supposed to be weighing against each other were virtual nonentities.  As far as the main story goes, this is the part I was most disappointed in.



#92
Hellion Rex

Hellion Rex
  • Members
  • 30 037 messages

I let Gaspard rule. I honestly didn't like any of the three, but Gaspard seemed the best option to me.



#93
dgcatanisiri

dgcatanisiri
  • Members
  • 1 751 messages

In theory, yes.  But in this case I can't help but wonder if Halamshiral had a lot of material cut because the three people we were supposed to be weighing against each other were virtual nonentities.  As far as the main story goes, this is the part I was most disappointed in.

 

I'd honestly agree with that - if anything, I think Inquisition overall suffered from trying to do TOO much. The ball in particular seems like a big place where this hits, because a lot of knowledge for it is dependent on what's gleamed from the books (the civil war was introduced in Asunder/The Masked Empire, and it's just taken as a 'yeah, you know, that thing that's happening' in the game itself). In the game, no side seems to be portrayed very badly, you have to know things about their character revealed through the books to get a clearer picture.

 

And there's a lot that the game seems to push - with the blackmail everyone option, you pretty much have to be aware ahead of time to hoard the halla statues so you can gain access to Celene's room to get blackmail on her, while Gaspard gets damaged by being seen walking with his cousin, a family member, after she attempts to kill the Inquisitor (and her association with Corypheus, how she joined him, is never made clear), while an elven servant claims that Briala, a known rebel, sent a Harlequin, an Orlesian assassin for the nobility, after her? Honestly, there's a lot going on, and only about half of it is made apparent through in-game material.



#94
Dabrikishaw

Dabrikishaw
  • Members
  • 3 243 messages

I agree that The Orlesian Civil War, despite being described as tearing the Empire apart, is barely seen outside the killing fields in the Exalted Plains. It's basically over by the time you speak to anyone involved. leaving the Inquisitor to play kingmaker to determine who actually wins.

 

And as a result of The Masked Empire acting as the backstory, most players don't get to really explore each of the 3 candidates for Orlais' throne in the same way the Warden did for Orzammar or Ferelden in Origins.


  • Iakus aime ceci

#95
nightscrawl

nightscrawl
  • Members
  • 7 475 messages

I'd honestly agree with that - if anything, I think Inquisition overall suffered from trying to do TOO much. The ball in particular seems like a big place where this hits, because a lot of knowledge for it is dependent on what's gleamed from the books (the civil war was introduced in Asunder/The Masked Empire, and it's just taken as a 'yeah, you know, that thing that's happening' in the game itself). In the game, no side seems to be portrayed very badly, you have to know things about their character revealed through the books to get a clearer picture.
 
And there's a lot that the game seems to push - with the blackmail everyone option, you pretty much have to be aware ahead of time to hoard the halla statues so you can gain access to Celene's room to get blackmail on her, while Gaspard gets damaged by being seen walking with his cousin, a family member, after she attempts to kill the Inquisitor (and her association with Corypheus, how she joined him, is never made clear), while an elven servant claims that Briala, a known rebel, sent a Harlequin, an Orlesian assassin for the nobility, after her? Honestly, there's a lot going on, and only about half of it is made apparent through in-game material.


But I think this is missing the point. Your Inquisitor doesn't know all the ins and outs and has to make a decision based only on the information presented in the game. I don't really see anything wrong with that, and I did read the novel when it was released prior to the game. To me, this is the nature of role-play. The same is true of Asunder and how its contents relate to the mage/templar issue and Cole in particular.

 

Sometimes there is no good option and you have to choose the lesser of (in this case) three evils.

 

However, I will agree about the secret spoiler option. In a way, I look at that as a reward for the player either playing through the game again, or going against type in not feeling the necessity (as many players do) to open all doors/chests and loot all the things. With Halamshiral, the game tries to reward players for exploration and patience. Some aspects of it are annoying, yes -- I put off the mission as long as possible in every play since it's a two hour time sink -- but I can appreciate that they tried to do something different.


  • HurraFTP et midnight tea aiment ceci

#96
nightscrawl

nightscrawl
  • Members
  • 7 475 messages

I agree that The Orlesian Civil War, despite being described as tearing the Empire apart, is barely seen outside the killing fields in the Exalted Plains. It's basically over by the time you speak to anyone involved. leaving the Inquisitor to play kingmaker to determine who actually wins.


I could do some mental gymnastics to explain some of this away, but I agree with you. I would like to have seen more of the impact on the empire and surrounding nations. Two maps and some banter in the capitol isn't really enough. Civil wars are hugely disruptive and impact every aspect of life in the nation, and also affect its neighbors as well -- trade, refugees, border conflicts, and so on.



#97
dgcatanisiri

dgcatanisiri
  • Members
  • 1 751 messages

But I think this is missing the point. Your Inquisitor doesn't know all the ins and outs and has to make a decision based only on the information presented in the game. I don't really see anything wrong with that, and I did read the novel when it was released prior to the game. To me, this is the nature of role-play. The same is true of Asunder and how its contents relate to the mage/templar issue and Cole in particular.

 

Sometimes there is no good option and you have to choose the lesser of (in this case) three evils.

 

However, I will agree about the secret spoiler option. In a way, I look at that as a reward for the player either playing through the game again, or going against type in not feeling the necessity (as many players do) to open all doors/chests and loot all the things. With Halamshiral, the game tries to reward players for exploration and patience. Some aspects of it are annoying, yes -- I put off the mission as long as possible in every play since it's a two hour time sink -- but I can appreciate that they tried to do something different.

 

The thing about that meta knowledge, though... A nation like Orlais going through a civil war? At the same time as the mage rebellion? These are nation-shaking events. These are things that should be everyday knowledge for anyone as close to the border of Ferelden and Orlais, because it's going to have a direct impact on them. Instead, the existence of a civil war in Orlais isn't dropped in game until Skyhold. And by virtue of being close to the Conclave when it took place, all possible Inquisitors should have had some kind of opinion, even if it is something along the '*sigh Orlesians...' I'd expect from a non-human Inquisitor. Haven is almost right on the border of Orlais and Ferelden, it seems like SOMETHING should spill over. Not to mention that we do get to visit Val Royeaux, Orlais's capitol. Why AREN'T people discussing it? Why isn't the option to discuss with SOME Orlesian dignitary the character of these people before we ever meet them? Hell, I'd expect that, as the Inquisiton makes itself a greater power, there'd be Orlesian nobles tripping over themselves to tell the Inquisition whatever they could - make themselves seem useful to the new power, you have made yourself look like a prospective ally, and if you need something from them, now they easily could be seen as indebted to you.

 

At the very least, I would honestly expect there to be discussions at Haven about how the Orlesian civil war is threatening them as much if not more than the mage-templar war. My complaint here is less that the Inquisitor is in the dark about the little details and just the fact that the Orlesian civil war, as a whole, doesn't seem to EXIST until the plot demands it to, at which point you're told to resolve it while you the player are still trying to get a picture of what the hell's going on. No one is discussing it, even broadly, until the point that, hey, isn't it convenient, the Inquisition needs to go there and clean it up.

 

This is what I'm getting at when I say Inquisition was doing too much - each of the major storylines of the game, the mage-templar war, the Orlesian civil war, Corypheus... ALL of these could have easily been their own game the size and length of Inquisition. In tackling them all at once, Inquisition suffered for it, because by only caring about it when it needs to be spotlighted, none of the real underlying causes are addressed, it's deal with things purely in the moment without the opportunity in or out of universe to get all the information on the matter, do something about the WHY this happened, rather than just reacting to it.



#98
Iakus

Iakus
  • Members
  • 30 309 messages

But I think this is missing the point. Your Inquisitor doesn't know all the ins and outs and has to make a decision based only on the information presented in the game. I don't really see anything wrong with that, and I did read the novel when it was released prior to the game. To me, this is the nature of role-play. The same is true of Asunder and how its contents relate to the mage/templar issue and Cole in particular.

 

Sometimes there is no good option and you have to choose the lesser of (in this case) three evils.

 

However, I will agree about the secret spoiler option. In a way, I look at that as a reward for the player either playing through the game again, or going against type in not feeling the necessity (as many players do) to open all doors/chests and loot all the things. With Halamshiral, the game tries to reward players for exploration and patience. Some aspects of it are annoying, yes -- I put off the mission as long as possible in every play since it's a two hour time sink -- but I can appreciate that they tried to do something different.

It's not really knowing the details of how the civil war started that's important, though.  It's getting a feel for the contenders of the throne.  Who they are, their personalities, how trustworthy they are, what their goals and ambitions are, etc.

 

That's something the Halamshiral segment didn't do too well, and kinda requires a reading of The Masked Empire to really understand.  You're putting one of these people on the throne of one of the most powerful empires in Thedas (or in the case of Briala potentially making the power behind the throne) One would think there should be some indication of the kind of person who's butt you're putting in the chair.  Even dossiers from Leliana's people, even.



#99
nightscrawl

nightscrawl
  • Members
  • 7 475 messages

It's not really knowing the details of how the civil war started that's important, though.  It's getting a feel for the contenders of the throne.  Who they are, their personalities, how trustworthy they are, what their goals and ambitions are, etc.
 
That's something the Halamshiral segment didn't do too well, and kinda requires a reading of The Masked Empire to really understand.  You're putting one of these people on the throne of one of the most powerful empires in Thedas (or in the case of Briala potentially making the power behind the throne) One would think there should be some indication of the kind of person who's butt you're putting in the chair.  Even dossiers from Leliana's people, even.


I know that that is what was referred to in the post I quoted. My point still stands. Your Inquisitor makes a choice based on the information available to them. I don't find anything wrong with that. Sometimes you DO have to make a choice based on little information, or some arbitrary criteria, or even just based around your own emotional response. Some people in this very thread have picked the option they felt would bring about the downfall of Orlais, and are quite gleeful at the prospect, so obviously they aren't too concerned with putting the best person in place.

 

And I think you certainly can make an informed decision based on game information. For example, talking to Gaspard enables you to find out that he would return to expansionism. I didn't find him to be too bad in the novel. I like the fact that he disdains The Game and has his own brand of honor. But the return to expansionism, and the chaos that would bring for the entire region, makes him a no-go for my Inquisitor. I don't need TME for that.

 

I read the novel before playing the game, but I don't incorporate that meta knowledge into my Inquisitor's decision. I remain satisfied with the decision making process and the choice that my Inquisitor makes at the time. He does later wonder if it was a mistake, but that is an element of role-play for me and doesn't change my decision in later plays.


  • HurraFTP, ComedicSociopathy, midnight tea et 1 autre aiment ceci

#100
Dabrikishaw

Dabrikishaw
  • Members
  • 3 243 messages

How did we get into a "make a choice with just roleplaying" argument? Everyone knows you can just do that.