Questa discussione ha avuto 47 risposte

[Sir Floopy]

No, I'm not posting to start another debate about thermal clips. Even in the later games, the weapons still have the metal block that provides thousands of ammunition pellets like in the first game. I was wondering, as I may do a comic/ fan art for the War Hero background: Do we ever find out where the blocks go, how they are replaced, how easy they are to replace in combat, or if they even can be replaced in combat, etc.?

 

Basically the story would follow my Shepard, an Infiltrator, through the Skyllian Blitz, and I thought it would be interesting if at some point he literally runs out of actual ammunition from firing so much, and has to put in a new block in the middle of the battle.

 

So if the Codex, novels, or whatever else canon has ever gone into detail on this, I would appreciate any information.

[KrrKs]

AFAIK the only details are stated there: http://masseffect.wi...ator#Small_Arms

 

Judging from Zaeeds comments about Jesse, it seems that weapons can theoretically be reloaded during combat, but this is never necessary.

(Zaeed quote goes something like: "I fought through all the mercs there, didn't have to reload once"

On the other hand, there is Wrex' story about Aleena, in which he states that he actually ran out of ammo and had to kill some mercs to use their 'crap weapons'; implying that you cannot change the ammo block (fast enough) during combat.

There is also Cortez' saying something along the lines that ammunition needs to be checked several times before missions. One possible explanation for that is also that it is not possible to change it in the field. But it could also be that only certain people can do it, or because no one carries excess ammo blocks around or something else.

 

About ammo placement and how to exchange it:

I don't think we've ever seen it, but the description lets it sound like it is literally a rectangular metal block. Logically it should reside close to thermal vents or the thermal clip (ejection) system of later weapons. But also somewhere behind the main barrel.

An unfolded weapon would probably need to be opened somehow to allow access to such a place.

[Sir Floopy]

I always thought Zaeed was talking about not needing to change the thermal clip(?) Also, do you know when Cortez says that? I must have missed it; I've only done two ME3 playthroughs. I guess the way I would explain the use of another ammo block would be that Shepard found an armory and stocked up before running off to secure the hole in the defensive line that we hear so much about. Thanks for the info!

[KrrKs]

I don't think Jesse used thermal clips, as he also said 'that gun would be older than Shepard'. I could be wrong about that though.

The line from Cortez is one of the lines he repeats incase he has nothing else to say, similar to his remarks about the Kodiac's thruster(?).

 

Another Idea how the actual ammo block could be loaded comes from Deus Ex3. The Combat rifle has a unique loading mechanism* that would also fit well into ME, imo. (But I don't think this would work with the sniper rifles...)

 

*The second from top line in the concept image.

[gothpunkboy89]

I always wondered this myself from the first game.

 

My speculation is they change out the block between missions. Replacing the block is much like replacing parts of any gun. Requiring full disassemble of the weapon then reassemble it. Thus not that common to do in the field unless necessary.

[Treacherous J Slither]

I don't think Jesse used thermal clips, as he also said 'that gun would be older than Shepard'. I could be wrong about that though.
The line from Cortez is one of the lines he repeats incase he has nothing else to say, similar to his remarks about the Kodiac's thruster(?).

Another Idea how the actual ammo block could be loaded comes from Deus Ex3. The Combat rifle has a unique loading mechanism* that would also fit well into ME, imo. (But I don't think this would work with the sniper rifles...)

*The second from top line in the concept image.

Loved the weapons in that game.

[Undead Han]

Most of the weapons in the Mass Effect universe would be designed originally for military use, so they would also need to be designed in a way that would make them easy to service in the field, potentially in combat conditions. As such I would think that ammo blocks could be easily reloaded without the use of specialized tools.

 

As for Wrex...

 

Maybe the ammo blocks don't come in one-size fits all, but vary in size and shape depending on the weapon system and manufacturer? I'm just spitballing obviously, as I don't think the books or games ever say anything about it. It might be plausible however, if we consider that in the real word ammunition comes in various calibers and you have to match the round to the weapon. You can't use the ammo from an Ak-47 (7.62mm] with an M-16 (5.56mm) for example. Maybe Wrex runs out of ammo but he's using a weapon from a different manufacturer from his opponents, and the ammo blocks they are using won't fit into his weapon. So he's forced to discard and swap weapons.

[themikefest]

I always wondered this myself from the first game.

 

My speculation is they change out the block between missions. Replacing the block is much like replacing parts of any gun. Requiring full disassemble of the weapon then reassemble it. Thus not that common to do in the field unless necessary.

Why would taking apart the weapon in the field be uncommon?

[Sir Floopy]

Why would taking apart the weapon in the field be uncommon?

Well, one ammo block is supposed to provide many thousands of rounds. I was imagining this as a crazy scenario where Shepard has to keep firing for hours on end, to the point that he becomes one of the first people to ever run out of actual ammunition for a mass accelerator weapon.

[themikefest]

Well, one ammo block is supposed to provide many thousands of rounds. I was imagining this as a crazy scenario where Shepard has to keep firing for hours on end, to the point that he becomes one of the first people to ever run out of actual ammunition for a mass accelerator weapon.

Wouldn't the weapon have to be taken apart to be cleaned? When in the field there's dirt, sand  that can get in the weapon to cause problems.

[Sir Floopy]

Wouldn't the weapon have to be taken apart to be cleaned? When in the field there's dirt, sand  that can get in the weapon to cause problems.

Hmm. I wouldn't think cleaning it would be that big of an issue with the technology of the ME universe. At least not to the point where it would absolutely need cleaning after going through just one ammo block. Although I guess since the block uses really small pieces, maybe the user would just have to keep it, and the slot for it, particularly clean. I really wish the Codex had more detail on this, because I'd like to know if this is feasible to occur or not.

[themikefest]

Hmm. I wouldn't think cleaning it would be that big of an issue with the technology of the ME universe. At least not to the point where it would absolutely need cleaning after going through just one ammo block. Although I guess since the block uses really small pieces, maybe the user would just have to keep it, and the slot for it, particularly clean. I really wish the Codex had more detail on this, because I'd like to know if this is feasible to occur or not.

I can't speak for the ME universe, but when I was in the field, I kept my weapon cleaned all the time.  During fighting it doesn't make sense  for obvious reasons, but during down time it's not uncommon for soldiers to keep their weapon clean.

[Iakus]

 

 

Maybe the ammo blocks don't come in one-size fits all, but vary in size and shape depending on the weapon system and manufacturer? I'm just spitballing obviously, as I don't think the books or games ever say anything about it. It might be plausible however, if we consider that in the real word ammunition comes in various calibers and you have to match the round to the weapon. You can't use the ammo from an Ak-47 (7.62mm] with an M-16 (5.56mm) for example. Maybe Wrex runs out of ammo but he's using a weapon from a different manufacturer from his opponents, and the ammo blocks they are using won't fit into his weapon. So he's forced to discard and swap weapons.

That would be my thinking.  Certain guns could only take certain size blocks of ammo.

 

Like that exchange in Iron Man 3:

 

Tony:  Gimme more bullets!  You have spares!

Rhodsey:  Mine's a different gun!  They're not universal!

[Sir Floopy]

I can't speak for the ME universe, but when I was in the field, I kept my weapon cleaned all the time.  During fighting it doesn't make sense  for obvious reasons, but during down time it's not uncommon for soldiers to keep their weapon clean.

Well yes, of course. In fact, come to think of it, there's a character who spends most of their time maintaining weapons while on the Normandy in every single installment. Ashley in the cargo hold, Jacob in the armory, and Cortez in the shuttle bay. I suppose it would add a bit of tension if Shepard's gun actually did malfunction just from the dirt and whatever else is floating in the air around him.

[gothpunkboy89]

Why would taking apart the weapon in the field be uncommon?

 

 

Because of the high amount of ammunition their system would have.

 

Because the main reason for any gun user to strip and clean their weapon is because of gunk build up due to the chemicals left over from the gun powered. Which can build up in the barrel and other parts and cause problems.  Since we are no longer using  individual rounds propelled by chemical reactions the need to strip it down and clean it would be reduced to almost unneeded.

 

Like wise the introduction of mass effect fields would for metallurgy result in the ability to create much stronger more durable metal or plastic composites for any and all moving thus reducing any wear and tear on them allowing them to last much longer. Giving the only common need to strip a weapon is before a mission at base or during a rare moment were it might jam. But due to the increase in tech for guns that is less and less likely a chance to happen in the field.

[themikefest]

Because of the high amount of ammunition their system would have.
 
Because the main reason for any gun user to strip and clean their weapon is because of gunk build up due to the chemicals left over from the gun powered. Which can build up in the barrel and other parts and cause problems.  Since we are no longer using  individual rounds propelled by chemical reactions the need to strip it down and clean it would be reduced to almost unneeded.

And how many of those gun users are in the military training where sand and bits of dirt can get in the weapon causing to jam, though that rarely happens? I know when I was in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iraq, my weapon was cleaned each day because of the sand blowing around all the time. It wasn't much, but enough to see that sand was inside my weapon. And when you're in the field for 30 days or longer, its a good idea to keep your weapon clean and maintained.
 

Like wise the introduction of mass effect fields would for metallurgy result in the ability to create much stronger more durable metal or plastic composites for any and all moving thus reducing any wear and tear on them allowing them to last much longer. Giving the only common need to strip a weapon is before a mission at base or during a rare moment were it might jam. But due to the increase in tech for guns that is less and less likely a chance to happen in the field.

I don't know what would happen in the Mass Effect world with weapons, but I'm sure those weapons still have to be cleaned and maintained

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

There are other problems with the blocks. Like what cuts the block? There's one block that's made of tungsten. That's one of the hardest metals known. What do you use to cut it in a rapid manner? The ammo block just doesn't make any sense. Then there's chemical rounds, cryo rounds. Incendiary rounds I can go along with, but not from a shaving block. lol. 

 

Slugs being accelerated without chemical propellants? Possible, but then you have an energy source to consider. Where does your power come from? While this works with large rail guns, how does it work with small arms? Ah, mass effect fields. 

[gothpunkboy89]

And how many of those gun users are in the military training where sand and bits of dirt can get in the weapon causing to jam, though that rarely happens? I know when I was in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iraq, my weapon was cleaned each day because of the sand blowing around all the time. It wasn't much, but enough to see that sand was inside my weapon. And when you're in the field for 30 days or longer, its a good idea to keep your weapon clean and maintained.
 

I don't know what would happen in the Mass Effect world with weapons, but I'm sure those weapons still have to be cleaned and maintained

 

While using the basic set up of modern fire arms is a good start. You can not base the entire argument as them applying the same logic we use to Mass Effect. Pre thermal clip the guns are fully encased. They don't use a similar gas/mechanical system to discharge the round and load the next one. All guns are more or less rail guns using element Zero to reduce their weight to allow them to reach near the speed of light speeds.

 

Since they are fully sealed up in the case of M7 and M8 which are kind of the iconic base line none of the moving parts are subject to the elements. Post thermal clip the only part that is subject to the elements is the thermal clip and that is only there to absorb heat and nothing more.  So none of the more delicate parts that could cause a misfire or jam it would be open to the elements to cause problems.

 

I never said they would never need to be serviced. Any smart military person would check, double check and triple check their equipment before leaving on their assignment. How ever due to the increase in tech and over all change in weapons and how they work in the ME universe the need to replace ammo or replace parts would be reduced to only a rare thing happening only once in a while with properly maintained equipment. Thus it becoming less common for soilders or even mercs to field strip their weapon to replace the ammo block. Thus inherent changes with the gun designed making them less field strip ready.

[gothpunkboy89]

There are other problems with the blocks. Like what cuts the block? There's one block that's made of tungsten. That's one of the hardest metals known. What do you use to cut it in a rapid manner? The ammo block just doesn't make any sense. Then there's chemical rounds, cryo rounds. Incendiary rounds I can go along with, but not from a shaving block. lol. 

 

Slugs being accelerated without chemical propellants? Possible, but then you have an energy source to consider. Where does your power come from? While this works with large rail guns, how does it work with small arms? Ah, mass effect fields. 

 

It only shaves off bit of it. I would assume a diamond bit edge.

 

I always assume incendiary, cryo and what not are just game play elements.I mean how could you make a round traveling close to the speed of light any more armor piercing? What kind of adamant metal are you using that even a shotgun which in the game doesn't gain any armor bonuses when fired at near the speed of light wouldn't make it swiss cheese. 

[themikefest]

While using the basic set up of modern fire arms is a good start. You can not base the entire argument as them applying the same logic we use to Mass Effect. Pre thermal clip the guns are fully encased. They don't use a similar gas/mechanical system to discharge the round and load the next one. All guns are more or less rail guns using element Zero to reduce their weight to allow them to reach near the speed of light speeds.

 

Since they are fully sealed up in the case of M7 and M8 which are kind of the iconic base line none of the moving parts are subject to the elements. Post thermal clip the only part that is subject to the elements is the thermal clip and that is only there to absorb heat and nothing more.  So none of the more delicate parts that could cause a misfire or jam it would be open to the elements to cause problems.

 

I never said they would never need to be serviced. Any smart military person would check, double check and triple check their equipment before leaving on their assignment. How ever due to the increase in tech and over all change in weapons and how they work in the ME universe the need to replace ammo or replace parts would be reduced to only a rare thing happening only once in a while with properly maintained equipment. Thus it becoming less common for soilders or even mercs to field strip their weapon to replace the ammo block. Thus inherent changes with the gun designed making them less field strip ready.

What I posted is correct, though it applies more to when I was in the military and not 170 years from now in the ME world.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

It only shaves off bit of it. I would assume a diamond bit edge.

 

I always assume incendiary, cryo and what not are just game play elements.I mean how could you make a round traveling close to the speed of light any more armor piercing? What kind of adamant metal are you using that even a shotgun which in the game doesn't gain any armor bonuses when fired at near the speed of light wouldn't make it swiss cheese. 

 

Near the speed of light? lol. You fire your weapon, and I think you could fire a blow dart faster than those projectiles. Did you ever watch them? They don't even fire at the speed of sound. Diamond bit edge? Nope, that wouldn't work either. They just don't make any sense. They're a game play element created with little thought.

[MrFob]

If you can instant-manufacture a mono-molecular omni-blade out of thin air if you need one, I guess that's what I'd use to cut the block.

I actually assumed that ammo mods are different blocks. If you read the description of the mods in ME1, you'll see where I am coming from with this. The ammo mods are actually changes in the material that is fired. Therefore, I'd also doubt that the blocks are an inaccessible part on the inside of the weapon, rather they should be able to be accessible and to be switched out in the field. Also, while the blocks provide a couple of thousand rounds or whatever, they are not infinite and as the OP states, there is the chance that they need to be replaced in a prolonged combat situation even without taking mods into account.

 

As for the bullets speed in game, yes, starting with ME2, it is preposterous. In ME1 it still made sense because the light trails you see where explained to actually be the visible trail of the super-fast bullet reacting with the environment (atmosphere, dust particles, etc.). In Revelation, I think it's even stated that every tenth round or so is a tracer round, that enhances the effect. So the whole "seeing bullets fly" thing is yet another instance of gameplay designers not talking to story/lore people from ME2 forward.

[Sir Floopy]

Hrmm. Thanks for everyone's input so far. It seems that although the idea of having to switch blocks in the field isn't that far-fetched, if one fires their weapon enough, but I guess nobody knows where it actually goes? Having thought about it for a little while now, I would guess the block would be near wherever the thermal clips are in the later models, as that would be where most of the moving parts, and therefore heat, is generated.

 

Thermal clips seem to go pretty much right above the trigger, about where the bolt and ejection port would be on a modern firearm, so does anyone think it would be reasonable that the block either goes in the grip, or just behind the barrel (about where those weird circles are on the M8 Avenger)?

[gothpunkboy89]

What I posted is correct, though it applies more to when I was in the military and not 170 years from now in the ME world.

 

Yes your post is based on current weapon hardware. Not ME weapon hardware. Every gun I've used in the game seems to be fully sealed against the elements. Doesn't use a chemical based propellant and they have access to metallurgy abilities we can't even dream about. So many of the things that cause our guns to jam or miss fire requiring constant care and cleaning both at home or even at the shooting range very well could not apply anymore in the game universe.

[Sir Floopy]

Yes your post is based on current weapon hardware. Not ME weapon hardware. Every gun I've used in the game seems to be fully sealed against the elements. Doesn't use a chemical based propellant and they have access to metallurgy abilities we can't even dream about. So many of the things that cause our guns to jam or miss fire requiring constant care and cleaning both at home or even at the shooting range very well could not apply anymore in the game universe.

Actually, one thing to consider is the fact that the barrel itself is inherently open to the environment. Unless they actually bothered to put on a sliding barrel cover that only opened when the gun fired, but I'd imagine maintaining such a precise and complex mechanism would be more trouble than just cleaning the weapon in downtime.