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To all fans who want the Inquisitor to be DA 4's protagonist!


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#226
demonicdivas

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This is a lot or words to say "that dead body was masterful manipulation" which has already been said. If you have a way he manipulated the Inquisitor that wouldn't have worked for a different protagonist, please post it.

 

Also, your argument about him manipulating the player makes no sense in terms of a protagonist argument, because I'm pretty sure it's still gonna be the same player if we get a new character!

 

The only thing I agree with is that he wanted to get inside your head. He just completely failed.

 

 

If Bioware can't write that story, then Bioware can't write that story. They can't just say "you know this thing that never happened once to your character? It totally happened. A ton". If I read a book, I don't expect the sequel to tell me the first book was wrong and I should just believe something completely different happened (unless its an unreliable narrator, or was an illusion, etc). 

 

But they could have written that story anyway. Bioware has forced choices before. They could have written something based off the choices you wrote in the main game. They could have written a multiple choice, but that whichever one you picked would change the plot so Solas was behind it.

 

What they can't do is "The Inquisitor is a super specially predictable protagonist because they followed a blood trail and killed the baddies at the end, unlike every other protagonist in every other RPG ever made. Wow, look at how amazing Solas is to know this!" 

 

Heh. Again you put it all far more succinctly than me  :lol: (and your post above it too which I have failed to include in my quotes for some reason!)


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#227
greenbrownblue

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Are Solas groin-kickers welcome at this gathering also?

Sure! Just be careful with saying out loud that you want to beat Solas. Lethallans would eat you alive :P !


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#228
greenbrownblue

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Were you not paying attention to what Solas had to say? Were you too busy going "but hunny, come home" to actually read/listen to what he was telling you? The Qunari and Solas had so many spies in the Inquisition that they literally, according to Solas, tripped over each other. This on top of being right there for all of your planning; did you think he wouldn't be studying you? Did you think he wouldn't be studying the entirety of the inner circle? Do you think that he wasn't paying attention to how you went about addressing issues? You were deluding yourself.

From the very beginning of the game, you have something that he wants, and yet, you believe he isn't going to try to get "inside your head" to figure a way to get it back? Did you play Tresspasser? Step out of "Woe is me, no Inquisitor" for a minute, and think about what he told you: He totally knew how you'd react to the Qunari invasion, and set it up so you'd come after them, and him, so he could get what he wanted. How's that for a one sentence summation of the plot of Tresspasser? He's such a master manipulator that he not only manipulated your Inquisitor, but he manipulated you, too. He blindsided you so hard with that plot that even out here in the real world, you can't see it, and can't understand that he could easily do it again. This is why they can't be the ones going after him, because he didn't get just a little bit inside their heads, he owns property there.

 

Dude, I think you are exaggerating. Solas was giving advices, yeah, but he had no impact on the choices that Inquis made. He only approved or disapproved. So we can't talk about manipulation here. Espcially not about manipulating the gamer (a real person). Yeah, giving the orb to Corypheus was a mistake, but well... sh*t happens. Anyway, Inquis and Solas had a common goal. If Solas did not tell the Inquisitor about Skyhold, Corypheus would kill more people than Solas is planning to kill by restoring the elven world. Moreover, in Corypheus' scenario nobody wins. In Solas' elves (and probably spirits) win. If you are wondering why spirits here is the link to a Solas-spirit theory.

Solas changes after returning from the Temple of Mythal. Either because he discovered that "Mythal endures" or because the temple reminded him of his duties. He clearly states that what he had with the Inquisitor was real. Quote: Originally, Solas wasn't a romance option for Dragon Age: Inquisition, but according to Mike Laidlaw, Bioware changed his role as a Love Interest when they extended the game's development for a year. ]This was also an opportunity to increase the basic sadness of Solas' character.

 

About the Trespasser... He helped stopping the Qunari plot and saved the Inquisitor... And saved the world from another conflict that Inquisitor's death would cause. Yeah, he lured you into meeting him, but if he was such a negative character, I doubt he would give two f about the Inquisitor. He even saves the Inquisitor with the low approval. 
 

Personally, half of my family is from a country that used to be occupied by Russians for over a hundred years, so I totally understand sacrificing everything to save your own people and your own country. So Solas being made a character that in desperation wants to make huge sacrifices to restore his people makes  a perfect sense to me.

 

A new protagonist would of course have interest in saving his own ass and the world, but Inquisitor is the only one protagonist that you can use to write a story about redeeming a friend.


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#229
robertthebard

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What utter rubbish. You're painting way too simplistic a picture of an incredibly complex character and relationship between him and the Inquisitor - probably one of the best Bioware have written.
 
Did you play Trespasser? Did you, indeed, play the entire game? If you'd forgotten, Solas, and the responses you receive, changes from the start of Inquisition to the end of  Trespasser depending on your approval rating for starters. If you have high approval he takes the mark away because he wants you to spend a few years in peace, revealed the Qunari plot from within the Inquisition ranks to save you as his friend, not just because he wants his magical green light back. Of course he knows your Inner Circle. He's been studying them for however many months it took whilst he was right there, in the Inquisition firsthand! So what's new in Trespasser? He's getting second-hand information? Big deal. And if you disband the Inquisition, that becomes a moot point anyway.


...and yet, you did exactly what he thought you would do, and rushed right in. What if you'd have sent Orlesian, or Fereldan troops after them instead? Except that, he knew you wouldn't, right? Riddle me this, however, why doesn't he just let you die if you have a low approval rating, or no approval? It's not like a DA game didn't have a written in death of the MC. He takes the mark because he wants it. He's not conflicted enough about his plans to put them on hold and allow you to talk him out of it, he just might regret the death of one person. Frankly, I doubt even that, based on his early dialog and how wistful he seemed about a world where the Fade and the "real" world were one and the same. He wants to restore his people, and he makes it clear, you aren't his people.
 

And yes, I've sat through every single YouTube video with every single outcome - Solas is deeply conflicted if you have a high approval rating and even wants to be proven wrong? Who's going to do that then? Some random who he doesn't know? You as the Inquisitor alone hold that power. 
 
Even if you hate Solas that much, you're seriously suggesting an Inquisitor with a low approval rating wouldn't want to be sure they'd removed the threat that is Solas once and for all in person? Really?? With all the knowledge they have now? And he won't manipulate an entirely new character? Who doesn't know diddly squat about Solas or how he functions and could spend half the game running around the open world of Tevinter like a headless chicken - just as Solas intends - making no headway whatsoever aside from picking elfroot for the herb garden, getting his/her mind bent at the same time? And Solas is not going to figure out this superhero protagonist until the end of the game and go 'oh no how foolish of me to have missed who you were' as you chop his head off?


Actually, my response is based entirely on dialog from within the game. There is no bias, there is no obsessive need to hunt him down for love or revenge, or spite. There is me, listening to what the Inner Circle has to say just before the credits. They are the ones that don't believe they can go after him, since he knows how they operate. They are the ones that suggest they'll have to find new people to do it. None of that is me, trying to convince myself that the Inquisitor is the only choice for the job, there is only me, going off of what the game told me, in a very literal fashion.
 

As for your very last paragraph, it doesn't even make sense. Aside from the fact that you're dismissing Solas is a megalomaniac psychopath with the emotional empathy of a nug.


Then why are you trying to assign all these other feelings towards him? It seems to me that if one of us has a problem with dealing with Solas, it isn't me. I took him at face value. I paid attention to what the inner circle had to say in the epilogue, and I went on from there. I'm not the one that is trying to change what words mean in order to justify being the first repeated protagonist in the series. 
 

Oh as for your check list - you haven't actually found Solas. He wandered off into an eluvian whilst your arm was disintegrating. That's quite a large omission in the list of finding those responsible. 
 
Restoring order - with Tevinter and the Qunari going to war with each other and the potential for destabilaisation across Thedas as a result? The world is hardly at order, is it? 
 
Why will the Inquisitor be manipulated again? Is the Inquisitor, along with the combined brainpower of the Inquisition, stupid? You managed to outsmart an ancient magister, in a way that felt all too easy, who caused the Blight and turned the Golden City Black. Corypheus arguably had almost as much power, and certainly matched the intelligence and arrogance of Solas. So what, you can't do the same again?


When aren't Tevinter and the Qunari almost at war? Which side of the conflict are you going to "put down" in order to restore an order that hasn't existed for centuries? We took the constant influx of demons coming directly from the Fade, which was what the issue was, not Tevinter, not the Qunari, until Tresspasser anyway. But yeah, let's look at how close Cory and Solas are:

The mark is permanent, you have spoiled it with your (can't remember the rest of the line off the top of my head), but that's Cory in Haven. At the end of Tresspasser, Solas takes what "cannot be taken" according to Cory. Yeah, I think there's a very definite power gap there, how about you?
 

I too favour the dual protagonist approach as a good way to end the role of Inquisitor by the end of the next game (although I'd prefer a 50-50 split) as well as having my Inquisitor as sole protagonist. Either works for me. I'll put my faith in Bioware's ability to build on their characters in a meaningful way and take on board the feedback from both sides of the fanbase as they've frequently shown they can do. If they come up with a plot, however, that puts the Inquisitor/new protagonist in such a passive role and treated like idiots as we were in Trespasser then that's a different story entirely.
 
They already knew way back anyway where they were going with this before they released Inquisition so it is pure conjecture. There's plenty of space for healthy, engaged debate on both sides and I can understand the arguments for having a new protag too - I just think the ones for our Inquisitor are stronger. Yet why you should vilify those of us who want our Inquisitors to return I have absolutely no idea.


Because "victim mentality"? I didn't write the dialog, I simply repeated the dialog. If anyone is vilifying you, it's BioWare, because they actually wrote the dialog. We have Word of God that Solas took the mark, it's provided up thread, and I don't do Twitter, or maybe it's in the other thread?

Regarding the next game's protagonist, are we even sure we'll be dealing with Solas in the next game? Are we sure that dealing with Solas won't be the end of the series because what if we can't stop him, and it does destroy the world as we know it? Maybe we spend an entire game building up the powerbase we need to take on someone that can turn you into a statue with a thought? Maybe we have to spend the next game figuring out where he is, since we can't stop him unless we know that for certain, and between the Crossroads, and all the possible destinations, and the fact that we'll have to find an eluvian he doesn't control, because he tells us that he controls the network now, in order to even gain access to all of the potential hiding places. Is this something that is going to happen off screen, in a novel, or series of novels, or the comics? We don't know. We don't know anything, and yet, people are convinced that the Inquisitor is best suited to be the protagonist? That's not based on logical thought, that's based on wishful thinking, and I'd be willing to bet that there are those amongst the what was it, Take back the Inquisitor movement, that believe it can be sorted with tea and cookies.

So sorry if taking the provided information seems like it's vilifying you, or anyone else. I am not responsible for how one feels about the facts as they are presented. That is entirely on the person having the feelings. I am not, however, going to pretend that they are anything other than what they are: The facts in evidence.

#230
Nefla

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This is a lot or words to say "that dead body was masterful manipulation" which has already been said. If you have a way he manipulated the Inquisitor that wouldn't have worked for a different protagonist, please post it.

 

Also, your argument about him manipulating the player makes no sense in terms of a protagonist argument, because I'm pretty sure it's still gonna be the same player if we get a new character!

 

The only thing I agree with is that he wanted to get inside your head. He just completely failed.

 

 

If Bioware can't write that story, then Bioware can't write that story. They can't just say "you know this thing that never happened once to your character? It totally happened. A ton". If I read a book, I don't expect the sequel to tell me the first book was wrong and I should just believe something completely different happened (unless its an unreliable narrator, or was an illusion, etc). 

 

But they could have written that story anyway. Bioware has forced choices before. They could have written something based off the choices you wrote in the main game. They could have written a multiple choice, but that whichever one you picked would change the plot so Solas was behind it.

 

What they can't do is "The Inquisitor is a super specially predictable protagonist because they followed a blood trail and killed the baddies at the end, unlike every other protagonist in every other RPG ever made. Wow, look at how amazing Solas is to know this!" 

I've lost a lot of faith in BioWare's writing abilities. There were definitely ways to have Solas manipulating the inquisitor and inner circle that when you play the game a second time you notice. Instead he's secretive but not really manipulating the inquisitor. The inquisition's goals and his goals line up (stop Corypheus and get the orb) so he fights with them and shows them a base. If Solas had not been involved, the Inquisition would have done the exact same things but found a different base than Skyhold (It never even gets attacked anyway and was unnecessary). As far as choices go, our choices in inquisition were very equivalent and did not affect the overall story (Celine or Gaspard, Keep or Exile the local Wardens, sacrifice Hawke or Alistair/Loghain/Stroud, etc...the result is exactly the same aside from slightly varying dialogue and an ending slide).

 

It would have been funny if Solas is there at the end of Trespasser waiting for the inquisitor with his back turned and when the eluvian is activated he says "I've been expecting you Inquisitor! I see you fell for my brilliant mind game of leaving a dead body and an easy to follow blood trail!" Then he turns around and it's actually a group of generic Orlesian guards. Solas: "Hey! But my brilliant strategy! Where is the inquisitor? He is the only one who would investigate a random corpse and a blood trail, I would know I have people spying on him!" Guards: "IT'S SPA DAY!"


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#231
vbibbi

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I've lost a lot of faith in BioWare's writing abilities. There were definitely ways to have Solas manipulating the inquisitor and inner circle that when you play the game a second time you notice. Instead he's secretive but not really manipulating the inquisitor. The inquisition's goals and his goals line up (stop Corypheus and get the orb) so he fights with them and shows them a base. If Solas had not been involved, the Inquisition would have done the exact same things but found a different base than Skyhold (It never even gets attacked anyway and was unnecessary). As far as choices go, our choices in inquisition were very equivalent and did not affect the overall story (Celine or Gaspard, Keep or Exile the local Wardens, sacrifice Hawke or Alistair/Loghain/Stroud, etc...the result is exactly the same aside from slightly varying dialogue and an ending slide).

 

It would have been funny if Solas is there at the end of Trespasser waiting for the inquisitor with his back turned and when the eluvian is activated he says "I've been expecting you Inquisitor! I see you fell for my brilliant mind game of leaving a dead body and an easy to follow blood trail! Then he turns around and it's actually a group of generic Orlesian guards. Solas: "Hey! But my brilliant strategy! Where is the inquisitor? He is the only one who would investigate a random corpse and a blood trail, I would know I have people spying on him!" Guards: "IT'S SPA DAY!"

Well, I would argue that Solas showing the Inquisition the way to Skyhold is manipulating us, albeit for a beneficial reason. As you say, his goals and ours align until we stop Cory, so he is manipulating us in order to keep the Inquisition alive and functioning. The game glosses over how dozens of people fleeing Haven are able to survive in harsh weather with only what they could carry long enough to reach Skyhold, and even then, how we survive long enough to travel somewhere to resupply and return to provide for our troops. But if ignore Bioware logic, the Inquisition probably would have frozen or starved to death in the mountains if we hadn't found Skyhold. Solas directed us there.

 

I speculate that since he was already familiar with Skyhold, he holds the home court advantage if he felt like spying on the Inquisitor or the Inner Circle. Can't you picture his bald little head peeking out of the rafters, holding back chuckles as he listens in to Leliana's reports?



#232
Abyss108

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robertthebard - I would have a much easier time believing you weren't biased if you didn't keep repeating the point that a blood trail is master manipulation, whilst ignoring the fact that literally every single protagonist Bioware has ever made would have done the same thing. 

 

Unless you honestly think in the next game, we're going to get a new protagonist, who will just sit back and give commands to other people to handle any plot threads that pop up, this doesn't make any sense.

 

And just for a moment, lets assume leaving a dead body actually is masterful manipulation. Going by that standard there are a lot of other protagonists who apparently shouldn't have actually been the protagonist.

 

Baldur's Gate 2. When you get to Skyhold you find out that Irenicus tricked you by making Saemon drug you, and for certain protagonists also had Yoshino spying on you. Oh no! Guess we shouldn't have been able to take him down afterwards!

 

KotOR. You get manipulated by the Jedi for the entire game. Guess you're worthless!

 

Jade Empire. Master Li manipulated you for your entire life. Guess you definitely don't stand a chance to beat this game!

 

Those are just 3 examples off the top of my head, written by Bioware themselves. 


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#233
vbibbi

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robertthebard - I would have a much easier time believing you weren't biased if you didn't keep repeating the point that a blood trail is master manipulation, whilst ignoring the fact that literally every single protagonist Bioware has ever made would have done the same thing. 

 

Unless you honestly think in the next game, we're going to get a new protagonist, who will just sit back and give commands to other people to handle any plot threads that pop up, this doesn't make any sense.

 

And just for a moment, lets assume leaving a dead body actually is masterful manipulation. Going by that standard there are a lot of other protagonists who apparently shouldn't have actually been the protagonist.

 

Baldur's Gate 2. When you get to Skyhold you find out that Irenicus tricked you by making Saemon drug you, and for certain protagonists also had Yoshino spying on you. Oh no! Guess we shouldn't have been able to take him down afterwards!

 

KotOR. You get manipulated by the Jedi for the entire game. Guess you're worthless!

 

Jade Empire. Master Li manipulated you for your entire life. Guess you definitely don't stand a chance to beat this game!

 

Those are just 3 examples off the top of my head, written by Bioware themselves. 

By saying any other Bioware protagonist would have done the same as the Inquisitor in Trespasser, aren't you making a case that anyone can be the PC in DA4? If the Inquisitor isn't doing anything unique in their chase of Solas, if anyone would do the same, why would the Inquisitor do anything different in the next game?

 

For the Jade Empire example, Master Li does beat us and complete his plans. It is just due to our nature as a spirit monk that we're able to make the near-impossible return to life and return. Master Li is a very successful villain, and if we weren't a Bioware special snowflake PC, his plan would have worked. Master Li is a good analogy to Solas.



#234
GoldenGail3

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Sure! Just be careful with saying out loud that you want to beat Solas. Lethallans would eat you alive :P !

I'm a Solasmancer that want's that....  :ph34r:


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#235
Abyss108

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By saying any other Bioware protagonist would have done the same as the Inquisitor in Trespasser, aren't you making a case that anyone can be the PC in DA4? If the Inquisitor isn't doing anything unique in their chase of Solas, if anyone would do the same, why would the Inquisitor do anything different in the next game?

 

No, not at all. I never claimed the Inquisitor wouldn't do anything unique in their chase against Solas, I claimed any protagonist would have followed the same blood trail and killed the Qunari at the end, and that there is nothing in any part of that game that shows Solas can predict what unique actions the Inquisitor would take.



#236
Iakus

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Baldur's Gate 2. When you get to Skyhold you find out that Irenicus tricked you by making Saemon drug you, and for certain protagonists also had Yoshino spying on you. Oh no! Guess we shouldn't have been able to take him down afterwards!

 

KotOR. You get manipulated by the Jedi for the entire game. Guess you're worthless!

 

Jade Empire. Master Li manipulated you for your entire life. Guess you definitely don't stand a chance to beat this game!

 

Those are just 3 examples off the top of my head, written by Bioware themselves. 

 

Just want to point out:

 

Irenicus one-shot kills you and the entire party at Spellhold unless you get outside help (ie the inmates)

 

And in Jade Empire, Master Li does kill you due to his manipulations, and you need to get help from the Water Dragon to come back and face him again.  And even then you can't defeat him without aid from your companions in the Battle at the Center of the Mind.

 

Keep in mind also that it takes more than the dead Qunari to show that Solas has been manipulating the Inquisitor.  He's been doing it from Day 1

 

He knew all along what the Anchor was, and how it could be used.

He knew who Corypheus was and what he planned to do with the Orb

He knew all about the Eluvians.  

He was the one who led the Inquisition to Skyhold 

 

Basically, eh could have saved the Inqisitor a lot of running around if he had come clean at the start.  Alas, Solas wanted his bauble back so he could end the world.



#237
Abyss108

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Just want to point out:

 

Irenicus one-shot kills you and the entire party at Spellhold unless you get outside help (ie the inmates)

 

And in Jade Empire, Master Li does kill you due to his manipulations, and you need to get help from the Water Dragon to come back and face him again.  And even then you can't defeat him without aid from your companions in the Battle at the Center of the Mind.

 

Keep in mind also that it takes more than the dead Qunari to show that Solas has been manipulating the Inquisitor.  He's been doing it from Day 1

 

He knew all along what the Anchor was, and how it could be used.

He knew who Corypheus was and what he planned to do with the Orb

He knew all about the Eluvians.  

He was the one who led the Inquisition to Skyhold 

 

Basically, eh could have saved the Inqisitor a lot of running around if he had come clean at the start.  Alas, Solas wanted his bauble back so he could end the world.

 

Yeah, you get help against the villain in all those cases, you don't step down as the protagonist. Which is exactly what should happen for DA4 as well!

 

 

That's a list of things Solas kept from the Inquisitor. I've never claimed Solas didn't keep secrets from the Inquisitor, I've claimed he can't predict the Inquisitors actions like others think he can.

 

:)


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#238
Iakus

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Yeah, you get help against the villain in all those cases, you don't step down as the protagonist. Which is exactly what should happen for DA4 as well!

 

Why?  The Inquisitor's story was closing the breach and finding the person responsible.  Job done.

 

I suppose you think Hawke should have been the Inquisitor because he tangled with Corypheus once before too?

 

Should Centeol have been the protagonist instead of the Bhaalspawn because of her previous dealings with Irenicus?  Or perhaps Ellesime

 

Or perhaps  Sagacious Zu should have been the protagonist of Jade Empire?

 

Even if there are returning characters in DA4, even if Solas returns as an antagonist, it will be a different story.  The Inquisitor's time is done.



#239
robertthebard

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robertthebard - I would have a much easier time believing you weren't biased if you didn't keep repeating the point that a blood trail is master manipulation, whilst ignoring the fact that literally every single protagonist Bioware has ever made would have done the same thing. 
 
Unless you honestly think in the next game, we're going to get a new protagonist, who will just sit back and give commands to other people to handle any plot threads that pop up, this doesn't make any sense.
 
And just for a moment, lets assume leaving a dead body actually is masterful manipulation. Going by that standard there are a lot of other protagonists who apparently shouldn't have actually been the protagonist.
 
Baldur's Gate 2. When you get to Skyhold you find out that Irenicus tricked you by making Saemon drug you, and for certain protagonists also had Yoshino spying on you. Oh no! Guess we shouldn't have been able to take him down afterwards!
 
KotOR. You get manipulated by the Jedi for the entire game. Guess you're worthless!
 
Jade Empire. Master Li manipulated you for your entire life. Guess you definitely don't stand a chance to beat this game!
 
Those are just 3 examples off the top of my head, written by Bioware themselves.


That's a whole lot of stretch for "We have to play the DLC, or there's no point in buying it" isn't it? The fact is, that's how the story is done. You can pretend Solas didn't tell you he planted that body if you like, but I know he did. I know that, in as much as they were able, they had Solas lead you by the nose to where he wanted you when he wanted you. It's also a lot of ignoring anything presented by the game that doesn't fit your agenda, to wit: The inner circle discussing how they can't be the ones to go after him. You can continue to lay this at my feet as if I'm the one that's making things up, to cover you ignoring things all day long. That doesn't change the fact that the dialog is in game, doesn't fit your agenda, and therefore, you feel like it must be ignored. Ignore away, just don't come here cyring in your beer when they don't use the Inquisitor in the next game, because it was foreshadowed rather obviously at the end of Tresspasser.

I know, "but I don't want it to mean that, so it doesn't". That's the typical counter to "It's in the game, not my head". Um, too bad? It's in the game, there's no amount of logical interpretation that makes it mean "We're going after him anyway". The only way that works is the emotional need to carry on about how you want what you want, and everyone else is "vilifying" you for wanting it, despite them just pointing out "Hey, they said they can't be the ones, so it stands to reason that they won't be". But do carry on trying to lay this on me. I didn't write the DLC's plot. I didn't write the dialog. I just chose not to ignore key bits in order to forward the "But the Inquisitor can totally come back" agenda. Hey, pop over to the Origins forum, and ask those guys how well that worked for getting the Warden as the protagonist for DA I...

#240
Abyss108

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Why?  The Inquisitor's story was closing the breach and finding the person responsible.  Job done.

 

I suppose you think Hawke should have been the Inquisitor because he tangled with Corypheus once before too?

 

Should Centeol have been the protagonist instead of the Bhaalspawn because of her previous dealings with Irenicus?  Or perhaps Ellesime

 

Or perhaps  Sagacious Zu should have been the protagonist of Jade Empire?

 

Even if there are returning characters in DA4, even if Solas returns as an antagonist, it will be a different story.  The Inquisitor's time is done.

 

The Inquisitor's job was to stop the one responsible, Solas. You don't have a story end by having the protagonist walk up to the villain behind the villain, swear to stop them, then step down an hour later.

 

Hawke probably should have been the protagonist, it was obvious Bioware was trying to set that up with Cassandra looking for her, etc, but not to nearly the same scale. She didn't declare she was going to defeat Cory. She didn't have a personal connection to the plot - she met the guy for 5 minutes in a DLC. A personal connection to her father isn't the same as a personal connection to her.

 

I don't recall playing as Centreol/Ellesime for 150 hours building up to a betrayal by Irenicus, so no, they shouldn't have been the protagonist.

 

Honestly can't remember a lot of the details of Jade Empire so can't really comment on that one. Pretty sure it's the same case as above though.


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#241
Abyss108

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That's a whole lot of stretch for "We have to play the DLC, or there's no point in buying it" isn't it? The fact is, that's how the story is done. You can pretend Solas didn't tell you he planted that body if you like, but I know he did. I know that, in as much as they were able, they had Solas lead you by the nose to where he wanted you when he wanted you. It's also a lot of ignoring anything presented by the game that doesn't fit your agenda, to wit: The inner circle discussing how they can't be the ones to go after him. You can continue to lay this at my feet as if I'm the one that's making things up, to cover you ignoring things all day long. That doesn't change the fact that the dialog is in game, doesn't fit your agenda, and therefore, you feel like it must be ignored. Ignore away, just don't come here cyring in your beer when they don't use the Inquisitor in the next game, because it was foreshadowed rather obviously at the end of Tresspasser.

I know, "but I don't want it to mean that, so it doesn't". That's the typical counter to "It's in the game, not my head". Um, too bad? It's in the game, there's no amount of logical interpretation that makes it mean "We're going after him anyway". The only way that works is the emotional need to carry on about how you want what you want, and everyone else is "vilifying" you for wanting it, despite them just pointing out "Hey, they said they can't be the ones, so it stands to reason that they won't be". But do carry on trying to lay this on me. I didn't write the DLC's plot. I didn't write the dialog. I just chose not to ignore key bits in order to forward the "But the Inquisitor can totally come back" agenda. Hey, pop over to the Origins forum, and ask those guys how well that worked for getting the Warden as the protagonist for DA I...

 

1 - "We have to play the DLC, or there's no point in buying it" - I don't even know what you mean by this, but I guess it's to do with Solas manipulating the Inquisitor. I offered three different solutions off the top of my head in a previous post for how Bioware could have actually written a plot where Solas manipulates the Inquisitor. Considering I'm not a writer, and Bioware has an entire team of writers, I'm sure they could have come to the same ideas, and plenty of much better ones than me in the time they had to write the game. Not "OMG Solas is sooooooo amazing for guessing the protagonist would follow a trail of blood!"

 

2 - When have I ever said Solas didn't tell me he planted the body? I've never said anything like this, we all know he planted the body! You have invented this point. 

 

3 - I have repeatedly posted about the inner circle saying they need to find help. The fact that you do not like my interpretation of it does not mean I am ignoring it. I have said numerous times that, yes, this can be interpreted to mean a new protagonist, but it can also be interpreted to mean allies. I believe Bioware put numerous lines in supporting both sides as they want to keep their options open. This ones leans more towards a new protagonist, but doesn't contradict an old. Likewise, none of my pro-Inquisitor arguments will be contradicted if they did decide to go with a new protagonist. 

 

4 - When have I ever said anyone is "vilifying" me? That's ridiculous, and I've never said anything that could even hint at that. There are plenty of posters arguing both sides, though unlike you, other posters seem to be open to debate this reasonably, instead of inventing arguments that I haven't made, putting words I don't agree with in my mouth, and throwing insults.


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#242
Iakus

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The Inquisitor's job was to stop the one responsible, Solas. You don't have a story end by having the protagonist walk up to the villain behind the villain, swear to stop them, then step down an hour later.

 

So Yoda should have starred in the Star Wars movies?

 

And calling Solas the "villain behind the villain" is a serious stretch.  Their goals were wildly divergent.   While Solas knew about Corypheus's plans, and even gave him the orb, he was not the one who created the Breach (and in fact didn't expect that to happen, he figured Corypheus would kill himself making the attempt)

 

 

 

Hawke probably should have been the protagonist, it was obvious Bioware was trying to set that up with Cassandra looking for her, etc, but not to nearly the same scale. She didn't declare she was going to defeat Cory. She didn't have a personal connection to the plot - she met the guy for 5 minutes in a DLC. A personal connection to her father isn't the same as a personal connection to her.

 

Hawke was never going to be the protagonist for DAI.  The stated goal for Dragon Age has always been "one story, one hero"  The overarching character is Thedas itself.  And the events that shape the Dragon Age.  If the Exalted March expansion had actually happened, perhaps we might have had a confrontation between Hawke and Cassandra, but that's likely as far as it would have gone.

 

 

 

I don't recall playing as Centreol/Ellesime for 150 hours building up to a betrayal by Irenicus, so no, they shouldn't have been the protagonist.
Honestly can't remember a lot of the details of Jade Empire so can't really comment on that one. Pretty sure it's the same case as above though.

Both Centreol and Ellisime had confrontations with Irenicus in his early years.  Both have bad blood with him, and their own little "stories"  By your logic, they should have had first dibs on stopping Irenicus again.



#243
Abyss108

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So Yoda should have starred in the Star Wars movies?

 

And calling Solas the "villain behind the villain" is a serious stretch.  Their goals were wildly divergent.   While Solas knew about Corypheus's plans, and even gave him the orb, he was not the one who created the Breach (and in fact didn't expect that to happen, he figured Corypheus would kill himself making the attempt)

 

Hawke was never going to be the protagonist for DAI.  The stated goal for Dragon Age has always been "one story, one hero"  The overarching character is Thedas itself.  And the events that shape the Dragon Age.  If the Exalted March expansion had actually happened, perhaps we might have had a confrontation between Hawke and Cassandra, but that's likely as far as it would have gone.

 

Both Centreol and Ellisime had confrontations with Irenicus in his early years.  Both have bad blood with him, and their own little "stories"  By your logic, they should have had first dibs on stopping Irenicus again.

 

Cory - wants to tear open the sky and become a God, will destroy the world in the process

 

Solas - wants to tear open the sky and is already a God, will destroy the world in the process.

 

It's the same idea, Solas just puts some fluffy feelings about "saving his people" into his speech about his plans. And a few fluffy feelings and sad Elf faces do not change a basic story idea.

 

Whether Hawke was the supposed to be the Protagonist is debated, and also what that even means. It certainly makes sense for Hawke to have been the protagonist of something, as Cassandra was looking for her for a reason. The game was also stated to be the story of one of the most important people in Thedas. Nothing in the game approaches that, and we know something big got cut, as their was going to be an expansion pack about whatever it was. It was probably the Cory plot, in a very different form. Whatever it was, Gaider was so angry it got cut, he had to take a month off to cool down. This is all speculation anyway, and as I said before, isn't remotely the same situation.

 

My logic doesn't say anyone else should have been the protagonist for Cory. Once again, you have ignored my point - that there was 150 hours of playing that build up in Inquisition. Not exactly the same as the few lines of dialogue those other characters have after a minutes screen time. Those characters might also have backstory with the villain, but we didn't spend an entire game watching that backstory unfold.


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#244
Nefla

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Well, I would argue that Solas showing the Inquisition the way to Skyhold is manipulating us, albeit for a beneficial reason. As you say, his goals and ours align until we stop Cory, so he is manipulating us in order to keep the Inquisition alive and functioning. The game glosses over how dozens of people fleeing Haven are able to survive in harsh weather with only what they could carry long enough to reach Skyhold, and even then, how we survive long enough to travel somewhere to resupply and return to provide for our troops. But if ignore Bioware logic, the Inquisition probably would have frozen or starved to death in the mountains if we hadn't found Skyhold. Solas directed us there.

 

I speculate that since he was already familiar with Skyhold, he holds the home court advantage if he felt like spying on the Inquisitor or the Inner Circle. Can't you picture his bald little head peeking out of the rafters, holding back chuckles as he listens in to Leliana's reports?

Skyhold itself never made sense to me as a base. For one, like you said how would all those people survive the cold to get there on foot? For another, it's so remote and inaccessible, how do they get supplies? How do pilgrims and troops get to and from there? Plus it's up in the old and snowy mountains. The only good thing about it is that it's very defensible but that never comes into play, not once in the entire game is Skyhold endangered or attacked. If Solas hadn't lead them there, they could have used one of the forts you can take over as their base or something. Somewhere easier to get to and with access to trade routes and supplies. How do people even get into Skyhold anyway? Are there stairs inside the support on the far end of the drawbridge that we can't see? Because it just drops off like a cliff O_o If there are stairs, how do they get horses and large items up them?

 

As for Solas spying on them at that point, why would he? He could just ask what's going on and they'd tell him. It's not like anything the inquisition did at that point was a secret anyway.

 

By saying any other Bioware protagonist would have done the same as the Inquisitor in Trespasser, aren't you making a case that anyone can be the PC in DA4? If the Inquisitor isn't doing anything unique in their chase of Solas, if anyone would do the same, why would the Inquisitor do anything different in the next game?

 

For the Jade Empire example, Master Li does beat us and complete his plans. It is just due to our nature as a spirit monk that we're able to make the near-impossible return to life and return. Master Li is a very successful villain, and if we weren't a Bioware special snowflake PC, his plan would have worked. Master Li is a good analogy to Solas.

One of the main arguments against having the inquisitor as the protagonist again is that Solas is some kind of master strategist/manipulator and knows the Inquisitor so well that he'd be able to predict and counter all of the inquisitor's moves. The "proof" being given that Solas is this master manipulator is that:

 

1) Nobody guessed he was the dread wolf (it's so out there that nobody would have reason to guess it even though he gives clues)

2) He left a body and a blood trail and the inquisitor followed it (anyone would investigate)

 

Neither of those things are impressive or an indicator of a brilliant and manipulative mind IMO and neither show an intimate knowledge of the inquisitor's personality and potential actions. The reason people are reiterating that ANYONE would have followed that blood trail is to disprove the notion that Solas is a master manipulator and his predictions of the inquisitor's actions would put the inquisitor out of the fight and rule him out as the next protagonist. Those of us who want to play the inquisitor again don't want to play as them because we think they're some kind of special chosen one who is the only one that is capable of stopping Solas. We simply think the history and connection between the two characters would make for a much better story than throwing in some random Joe off the street instead.

 

Master Li was one of BioWare's best antagonists, I wish we'd get more like him and fewer like Corypheus.

 

Why?  The Inquisitor's story was closing the breach and finding the person responsible.  Job done.

 

I suppose you think Hawke should have been the Inquisitor because he tangled with Corypheus once before too?

 

Should Centeol have been the protagonist instead of the Bhaalspawn because of her previous dealings with Irenicus?  Or perhaps Ellesime

 

Or perhaps  Sagacious Zu should have been the protagonist of Jade Empire?

 

Even if there are returning characters in DA4, even if Solas returns as an antagonist, it will be a different story.  The Inquisitor's time is done.

If BioWare wanted to finish the inquisitor's story, they should have left well enough alone and kept the inquisitor in the dark about Solas like they had with the original game ending. Why reopen the ending and stir things up with the inquisitor, set them in motion once again, reveal Solas' past lies and his plan to destroy the veil and then have every inquisitor vow to stop him either through redemption or defeat? Why set up one of their companions as the next villain, build a confrontation between them, and give the inquisitor a strong motivation to go after Solas if they're just going to use a random and unrelated person? If the next game was not about Solas and Solas wasn't in it then by all means, have a new hero but the inquisitor and Solas are connected at this point.

 

I either want a new protagonist, new villain, new companions and new story with no cheesy cameos or forced returning companions or shoehorned book characters that are given no in-game development, OR I want the next game to resolve the conflict between the inquisitor and Solas.

 

PS: Many people believe that Hawke originally WAS supposed to be the inquisitor but BW changed their mind based on how poorly Hawke was received.


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#245
robertthebard

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The Inquisitor's job was to stop the one responsible, Solas. You don't have a story end by having the protagonist walk up to the villain behind the villain, swear to stop them, then step down an hour later.


Actually, the one responsible for opening the Breach was Cory. It's fairly well laid out in the game, how'd you miss it? He got the tool from Solas, but the ritual was his.
 

Hawke probably should have been the protagonist, it was obvious Bioware was trying to set that up with Cassandra looking for her, etc, but not to nearly the same scale. She didn't declare she was going to defeat Cory. She didn't have a personal connection to the plot - she met the guy for 5 minutes in a DLC. A personal connection to her father isn't the same as a personal connection to her.
 
I don't recall playing as Centreol/Ellesime for 150 hours building up to a betrayal by Irenicus, so no, they shouldn't have been the protagonist.


Why not? By the logic you're using to justify the Inquisitor, either of them had a legitimate claim. So it's only acceptable to step on someone's toes, as it were, if you're the one doing the stepping? News flash: If there's a DA 4 and it has a new protagonist, and you buy the game, you will be the one stepping on your own toes.
 

Honestly can't remember a lot of the details of Jade Empire so can't really comment on that one. Pretty sure it's the same case as above though.


You can't remember the details, but you bring it up as a counter to something else. How does that work, exactly? Wait, don't answer that, because I already know: Maybe nobody's played, so I won't be expected to provide anything but game names where bad stuff happens to the protagonist because of the antagonist. Welcome to every game ever made that's not CoD-esque?

#246
Iakus

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Cory - wants to tear open the sky and become a God, will destroy the world in the process

 

Solas - wants to tear open the sky and is already a God, will destroy the world in the process.

 

It's the same idea, Solas just puts some fluffy feelings about "saving his people" into his speech about his plans. And a few fluffy feelings and sad Elf faces do not change a basic story idea.

 

Whether Hawke was the supposed to be the Protagonist is debated, and also what that even means. It certainly makes sense for Hawke to have been the protagonist of something, as Cassandra was looking for her for a reason. The game was also stated to be the story of one of the most important people in Thedas. Nothing in the game approaches that, and we know something big got cut, as their was going to be an expansion pack about whatever it was. It was probably the Cory plot, in a very different form. Whatever it was, Gaider was so angry it got cut, he had to take a month off to cool down. This is all speculation anyway, and as I said before, isn't remotely the same situation.

 

My logic doesn't say anyone else should have been the protagonist for Cory. Once again, you have ignored my point - that there was 150 hours of playing that build up in Inquisition. Not exactly the same as the few lines of dialogue those other characters have after a minutes screen time. Those characters might also have backstory with the villain, but we didn't spend an entire game watching that backstory unfold.

Actually Corypheus wanted to physically enter the Fade, which does not necessarily mean "tear open teh sky" as the event at Adamant shows.

 

Solas, otoh wants to remove the Veil entirely.  He doesn't want to destroy the world. He just thinks that this is the likely outcome of bringing the Fade and the physical world back into contact.

 

Granted the likely end results are the same (everybody dies), but then we could say the same thing about the archdemon's goal in DAI.

 

Your problems with Hawke and "the most important person on Thedas" not living up to the hype are problems with DA2's story.

 

We built up the Inquisition to stop Corypheus.  Which we did.  And Trespasser showed us that Solas, an ally, is also a threat.  A different threat, with different goals.  But still a threat to Thedas.

 

 

 

If BioWare wanted to finish the inquisitor's story, they should have left well enough alone and kept the inquisitor in the dark about Solas like they had with the original game ending. Why reopen the ending and stir things up with the inquisitor, set them in motion once again, reveal Solas' past lies and his plan to destroy the veil and then have every inquisitor vow to stop him either through redemption or defeat? Why set up one of their companions as the next villain, build a confrontation between them, and give the inquisitor a strong motivation to go after Solas if they're just going to use a random and unrelated person? If the next game was not about Solas and Solas wasn't in it then by all means, have a new hero but the inquisitor and Solas are connected at this point.

 

 

I am reminded of Pillars of Eternity.  There is a character in the game, Lady Webb, who runs a sort of secret police/spy  organization (sound familiar?) called Dunryd Row.  She has been hunting the Big Bad for many years, and even knew said person very well in her youth.  But now directs others in the task.  She is a questgiver for the player character, and the missions she gives provide a great deal of insight into the antagonists' plans and is vital to advance the main plot.

 

But her time for direct confrontations is gone.  It's up to the younger heroes to carry on.

 

 

 

PS: Many people believe that Hawke originally WAS supposed to be the inquisitor but BW changed their mind based on how poorly Hawke was received.

Many people are wrong.

 

http://forum.bioware...ge-3/?p=6524151

 

 

 

Mike Laidlaw, on 04 Aug 2011 - 11:58 PM, said:
Since I'm in a sharing mood, I will put this out there: our intention is that for each major release of Dragon Age, you will take up the mantle of a new character. This does not mean your old character may never appear in future games, but as far as the core protagonist goes, if there is a DA III, it will very likely be neither Hawke nor The Warden.

We want to keep the series about the time and place, rather than about any singular character. While I know not everyone prefers that approach, I believe it's perfectly valid, especially if certain plans of ours to shore up world consistency (import bugs really bother me!) come to fruition, which I believe they will.

And that's all I can say about that.


#247
Abyss108

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Actually, the one responsible for opening the Breach was Cory. It's fairly well laid out in the game, how'd you miss it? He got the tool from Solas, but the ritual was his.
 

Why not? By the logic you're using to justify the Inquisitor, either of them had a legitimate claim. So it's only acceptable to step on someone's toes, as it were, if you're the one doing the stepping? News flash: If there's a DA 4 and it has a new protagonist, and you buy the game, you will be the one stepping on your own toes.
 

You can't remember the details, but you bring it up as a counter to something else. How does that work, exactly? Wait, don't answer that, because I already know: Maybe nobody's played, so I won't be expected to provide anything but game names where bad stuff happens to the protagonist because of the antagonist. Welcome to every game ever made that's not CoD-esque?

 

They both have delusions of grandeur and a plot to destroy the world by tearing open the sky. It's a pretty obviously intentional parallel. Solas gave the orb to Cory willingly, even though he knew Cory was going to try something very very nasty with it. The fact that he thought Cory would die attempting it doesn't excuse him. If I give a gun to a person who I know wants to use it to kill a bunch of people, I don't get off guilty free if I make the argument that I thought the guy was so stupid he would trip and shoot himself first.

 

You have once again completely ignored my point that Inquisitor-Solas has 150 hours/an entire game of you playing the backstory, and thats why it's important. You keep comparing it to something that has 20 minutes screen time maximum, or in the worst case a few lines of dialogue.

 

How exactly is me not remembering the entire Zu plot discredit my point about Master Li? If I have remembered something about Master Li manipulating the protagonist incorrectly, please correct me? 



#248
Abyss108

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Actually Corypheus wanted to physically enter the Fade, which does not necessarily mean "tear open teh sky" as the event at Adamant shows.

 

Solas, otoh wants to remove the Veil entirely.  He doesn't want to destroy the world. He just thinks that this is the likely outcome of bringing the Fade and the physical world back into contact.

 

Granted the likely end results are the same (everybody dies), but then we could say the same thing about the archdemon's goal in DAI.

 

Your problems with Hawke and "the most important person on Thedas" not living up to the hype are problems with DA2's story.

 

We built up the Inquisition to stop Corypheus.  Which we did.  And Trespasser showed us that Solas, an ally, is also a threat.  A different threat, with different goals.  But still a threat to Thedas.

 

Cory and Solas' plans both have the same outcome - destroy the world by removing the veil, and remake it how they see fit. The archdemon just kills everyone and doesn't have a plan (that we know of).

 

We didn't even know Cory existed when we started the Inquisition. It was to stop the one behind the breach - see my previous post about why Solas is equally responsible for this.



#249
Iakus

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Cory and Solas' plans both have the same outcome - destroy the world by removing the veil, and remake it how they see fit. The archdemon just kills everyone and doesn't have a plan (that we know of).

 

We didn't even know Cory existed when we started the Inquisition. It was to stop the one behind the breach - see my previous post about why Solas is equally responsible for this.

And Cory didn't plan to remove the Veil, but to enter the Fade in the flesh.  Which we know for fact doesn't require the destruction of the Veil. Nor did he plan to destroy the world.  He wanted to rule it as a god. Granted by teh end we made him so desperate he was willing to destroy the world to achieve godhood.  But it wasn't exactly plan A.

 

And Solas doesn't really want anyone to die.  Nor does he want to be worshipped.  He just wants the magic back.  But achieving that is likely to kill everyone currently living on Thedas.

 

I'd say their goals are mutually exclusive.  Violently so.

 

 



#250
Nefla

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I am reminded of Pillars of Eternity.  There is a character in the game, Lady Webb, who runs a sort of secret police/spy  organization (sound familiar?) called Dunryd Row.  She has been hunting the Big Bad for many years, and even knew said person very well in her youth.  But now directs others in the task.  She is a questgiver for the player character, and the missions she gives provide a great deal of insight into the antagonists' plans and is vital to advance the main plot.

 

But her time for direct confrontations is gone.  It's up to the younger heroes to carry on.

I would hate if that kind of thing happened to the inquisitor, though I think it will. I think that cutting of the inquisitor's hand was a cheap way to sideline him and make him a supposedly helpless cripple so they can continue their 1 protagonist-I game tradition and give us yet another "generic nobody rises to power and gathers forces to defeat generic evil guy." It would be cool if we knew which direction they were going to take (new protagonist or Inquisitor) for the next game so those of us who's interest in the series hinges on that decision could jump ship.


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