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[rosey1579]

Lilly. You know, the initiate from the Magi origin.
She falls in love with a Mage and HE convinces her to do something bad. One would do anything for one they love and she didn't know the truth about him. All she wanted was to live a happy life with Jowan, but instead she is betrayed by here true love and sent to prison.
To me this hardly seems fair. The fact that she was an initiate should PROVE that she is devoted to the chantry and still they cart her off to who knows where. In fact, she is basically the ONLY ONE who gets punished. Jowan escapes which was his plan all along and we escape with Duncan, but Lilly, who played a MINOR ROLE (and was barely a help with the sentinels), gets the full punishment and we never see her again.
This just isn't fair and the Templars are blind if they can't see that.
Rant end.

[Callidus Thorn]

No, Just no.

 

1) Just by having a relationship with him, she was breaking the Chantry's rules.

 

2) She revealed to Jowan that he was going to be made tranquil, another violation of the rules.

 

3) It's clear that certain elements of the plan, like acquiring the password to the door in the basement, were her contribution, not Jowan's.

 

4) She wasn't just standing around while Jowan was trying to convince you to help him, clearly, the two are co-conspirators.

 

Her role was not minor, she played just as big a role as Jowan did, broke just as many rules as he did, of her own volition. The only difference is that Jowan's betrayal of her by learning blood magic shocked her into accepting her fate.

[Ghost Gal]

What Callidus Thorn said.

[DebatableBubble]

The Templars were right to punish her. It's a shame that Jowan escaped before he could get his (even though I always try and push for Eamon and Teagan to spare him and wish that we could recruit him as a Warden).

[Qun00]

Do they actually have rules forbidding mages from dating under any curcumstances?

[rosey1579]

It's true she did break the rules, but she was the ONLY ONE PUNISHED. To me this doesn't seem fair.

[Ghost Gal]

It's true she did break the rules, but she was the ONLY ONE PUNISHED. To me this doesn't seem fair.

 

Well, life isn't fair. Neither is the fictional world of Thedas.

 

If you ask me, it isn't fair for mages to be locked up in towers just for having magic, but that's Thedas. To me, it isn't fair that Jowan got labeled "maleficar" and was scheduled to be made Tranquil just for dabbling in blood magic (since I don't think blood magic is inherently evil, just want you do with it; since Jowan was just trying to use his own blood to enhance his own spells, then he wasn't hurting anyone), but that's the Andrastian religion and value system.

 

Lily knew what rules she was breaking and knew what consequence she was risking by breaking them.

 

Yes, it's not "fair" that she's the only one who got punished in the way meant to be punished, but looked at another way Jowan will spend the rest of his life on the run, afraid of being spotted by Templars. At worst (depending on the Warden's actions) he could be sent back to the Circle to be made Tranquil anyway. And Amell/Surana got turned into a Grey Warden, which is in its own way a lifelong prison sentence (depending on how you look at it), so it's not like they got off smelling like a batch of roses either.

[springacres]

^What Callidus and Shiara said.

 

And since I apparently can't respond without my canon Warden wanting to put in his two coppers' worth...

 

My M!Surana felt bad about his role in Jowan's escape and ended up sending him back to the Circle to be made Tranquil, which he considers only fair because Jowan did dabble in the forbidden arts.  He doesn't much care for becoming Warden-Commander, either, since it means he gets saddled with the Arling of Amaranthine.  (He's still waiting for the world, or at least King Alistair and Teyrn Cousland, to recover from whatever it was that made them turn over a whole arling to an elven mage in the first place.  He's actually not entirely sure this isn't Al's way of paying him back for having Al do the DR.)

[Illegitimus]

Do they actually have rules forbidding mages from dating under any curcumstances?

 

No.  Mages can get romantically involved and even married with permission.  But they do have rules against Templars having intercourse with mages, and they have rules against Chantry initiates having intercourse period.   Me I don't feel too bad for Lily.  Not only was she violating her vows, but surely she had to realize that if the PC fell for it then the PC would be left holding the bag.

[Deadly dwarf]

It wasn't clear to me whether Lily was aware that Jowan was a malificar.  If she did, then I'd say she deserved whatever punishment they gave her.  If she didn't know he was a blood mage, then I'd say she deserved some leniency.

 

As far as raw deals go, the worst one I saw was what happens to Soris after helping you escape from the Arl of Denerim's estate.  If, after escaping and returning to the alienage, you try to avoid capture from the guards  who enter the alienage to arrest those who killed Vaughan, the nasty jealous elf finks on you and Soris.  At that point, Duncan uses conscription to have you join the wardens but he refuses to conscript Soris leaving him to rot in jail.  (Only by immediately confessing that you acted alone in killing Vaughan and his posse can you protect Soris.)

[springacres]

It was pretty clear to me that she didn't know.  She's horrified when he uses blood magic and is willing to accept whatever punishment the templars see fit to give her once she realizes she's assisted a maleficar.

[straykat]

I never thought she needed that either.. She was remorseful.

 

Not to mention the prison seems totally unsuitable for that particular violation. The Aeonar entry in WoT is overkilll. What purpose does it serve to have her haunted by some place where the veil is that thin? She's just a priest who goes mad. Big accomplishment. yay

[springacres]

Any kind of confinement seems like overkill for Lilly, actually.  Then again, my canon Warden only helped Jowan escape because he thought his friend might have gotten Lilly pregnant.  (I had to come up with a reason for him not to tell Irving, and that seemed as good as any.)

[DeathWalksBehindYou]

Lilly is sneaky. She starts off all sweetness and light, and you think butter wouldn’t melt in her mouth. The next thing you know, she’s saying, “well, let’s break Chantry rules and sneak into this forbidden vault and help my boyfriend turn apostate!”

 

Frankly, I think she knew Jowan was flirting with blood magic all along. That “I don’t know you at all, blood mage!” business? Totally a rehearsed performance for Gregoir and the other templars, hoping to reduce her sentence. I really don’t think she’s as innocent as she lets on (especially considering how she takes charge once you get to the vault).

[GoldenGail3]

Any kind of confinement seems like overkill for Lilly, actually.  Then again, my canon Warden only helped Jowan escape because he thought his friend might have gotten Lilly pregnant.  (I had to come up with a reason for him not to tell Irving, and that seemed as good as any.)

My Amell didn't trust Jowan and told Irving everything. She had a vague idea of Jowan escaping wasn't such a good idea on her part. My Amell was a nice person, and all...Just she just doesn't trust easily.

[Dai Grepher]

She was sent to the Aeonar, the mage prison. Mu hu haw haw haw haw haaa!!!

 

I wish Inquisition would have featured Aeonar, and then Lily and perhaps Jowan if he lived.

 

My Amell broke no rules. He sold Jowan out first chance he got. He even gave him the chance to turn back. If you tell him the door can't be opened, Lily will insist that there must be another way, and Jowan will agree.

 

But even if your Amell went along with it, your punishment is to become a Grey Warden. Jowan can get punished too depending on how you play it.

 

But yeah, Lily's punishment is implied to be the worst. She deserved it though.

[DebatableBubble]

Lilly is sneaky. She starts off all sweetness and light, and you think butter wouldn’t melt in her mouth. The next thing you know, she’s saying, “well, let’s break Chantry rules and sneak into this forbidden vault and help my boyfriend turn apostate!”
 
Frankly, I think she knew Jowan was flirting with blood magic all along. That “I don’t know you at all, blood mage!” business? Totally a rehearsed performance for Gregoir and the other templars, hoping to reduce her sentence. I really don’t think she’s as innocent as she lets on (especially considering how she takes charge once you get to the vault).

New headcanon accepted.

[straykat]

But yeah, Lily's punishment is implied to be the worst. She deserved it though.

 

I really don't see why she deserved it or what it accomplishes. If you think it's a crime, just put her in a prison. Why shove her off to a prison that makes her even more susceptible to hostile magic. lol. That place is screwed.

 

Unless prison is just some place to be malicious or something. I tend to think of them as places of reform. But that's not what it does to her.

[Illegitimus]

I really don't see why she deserved it or what it accomplishes. If you think it's a crime, just put her in a prison. Why shove her off to a prison that makes her even more susceptible to hostile magic. lol. That place is screwed.

 

Unless prison is just some place to be malicious or something. I tend to think of them as places of reform. But that's not what it does to her.

 

She's not a mage.  She's in no more danger from magic there than anywhere else and I don't think her sentence will be for life.  

[straykat]

She's not a mage.  She's in no more danger from magic there than anywhere else and I don't think her sentence will be for life.  

 

It doesn't matter if she's a mage. The veil is thin. She's still tormented.. as seen in WoT. It's overkill and unnecessary. Better to just kill her.

 

Really, it's not much of a good place for Templar guards either.

[sylvanaerie]

Lilly is sneaky. She starts off all sweetness and light, and you think butter wouldn’t melt in her mouth. The next thing you know, she’s saying, “well, let’s break Chantry rules and sneak into this forbidden vault and help my boyfriend turn apostate!”

 

Frankly, I think she knew Jowan was flirting with blood magic all along. That “I don’t know you at all, blood mage!” business? Totally a rehearsed performance for Gregoir and the other templars, hoping to reduce her sentence. I really don’t think she’s as innocent as she lets on (especially considering how she takes charge once you get to the vault).

 

If you listen to the dialogues between her and Jowan (and you can actually speak to Jowan after they join you) you hear the silly, optimistic and totally stupid dreams they have about him giving up magic and them going to live on a farm.  They just sound like every other very young, naive kid in love I've ever witnessed.

 

Jowan can no more give up his fascination with magic than she can actually accept his magical nature.  Burying your head in the sand and pretending it will go away isn't very effective, but that's what they plan on doing.

 

So, no, I don't believe she's as devious as all that you propose, and was totally blindsided by his blood magic study since he not only kept telling her "I'm not a blood mage" but also that he was going to give up all magic.  She's too naive and blind with love to see him for what he is (a mage too curious about magic to just give it up).  Jowan is too naive and blind with love to see her as she is (a mundane who really doesn't accept his magical nature).

 

As to what happens to Lily, yea it sucks, but I tend to think the chantry may have stepped in and done something about her imprisonment since the punishment far exceeds the crime.  I think for lack of anything better Bioware just threw that one out there for the player to impact the severity blood magic is viewed with by the general populace on Thedas.

[straykat]

I think they might've been fine, if not for the blood magic. Nothing wrong with her silly dreams imo. Abominations are so overrated Especially if they went out to a farm or something. I doubt it'd be as stressful as Kirkwall.

 

But that's probably a whole other can of worms. The idea of stress and magic. I think that's the main culprit that causes even worse problems. Take out the stress, take out the problems.

[caradoc2000]

Medieval (or equivalent that Thedas represents) justice systems were generally not lenient, so I don't find it surprising that Lilly gets sent to Azkaban.

[straykat]

Medieval (or equivalent that Thedas represents) justice systems were generally not lenient, so I don't find it surprising that Lilly gets sent to Azkaban.

 

It's not merely a justice issue. If that was the case, any prison would suffice.

 

Instead this illuminates the overkill of the Chantry justice specifically. And if this is actually cool, I'd accuse people of just trying to be edgy. Hardcore antimagic types who think it makes a point on how determined they are or something. But if they are really antimagic, I'd think they want to shut down torn-veil instances as much as possible. Not indulge in it. I'm not the biggest fan of magic, and that's what I'd do. I hate the Spirit stuff in this setting. Even when I play a mage, I like to be autonomous and human.

 

 

 

"Aeonar is a prison designed to let things in. The veil here is so perilously thin that even I can feel it. The denizens of the Fade gather like monstrous shapes pressing against a fine curtain. [..] I am Lily, myself alone. I am no malificar, just a Chantry initiate who loved deeply and foolishly.

 

She might be dead though.. so maybe that's good.

 

 

 

"Something has changed. There have been no Chantry messengers for weeks, and the templars' frowns deepen. The last messenger feared there might be open war between mages and the Templar Order. What does that mean for us? Aeonar is an isolated fortress, a fine prize for any mage skilled in demonology, and the Templars might decide to purge this place..." --- From a diary sent to Seeker invesitgators, who later found Aeonar deserted, with no signs of violence

[caradoc2000]

It's not merely a justice issue. If that was the case, any prison would suffice.

Probably, but the impression I got is that the Chantry uses Azkaban for all clergy/magi transgressions severe enough to warrant imprisonment. In this case: assisting a blood mage.