My Amell didn't trust Jowan and told Irving everything. She had a vague idea of Jowan escaping wasn't such a good idea on her part. My Amell was a nice person, and all...Just she just doesn't trust easily.
My latest Amell Louisa did as well. She had a feeling that Jowan was lying aqbout something and hence told Irving about it.
My latest Amell Louisa did as well. She had a feeling that Jowan was lying aqbout something and hence told Irving about it.
Our Amell's are the supicous sort, aren't they? 
Mine ended up romancing Alistair, the master ninja of romances.
Probably, but the impression I got is that the Chantry uses Azkaban for all clergy/magi transgressions severe enough to warrant imprisonment. In this case: assisting a blood mage.
Fair enough.
Although this is a good case why I think the Chantry is in trouble now (even though I am a fan in general).. it's overkill like this. Now it's all gone.
My latest Amell Louisa did as well. She had a feeling that Jowan was lying aqbout something and hence told Irving about it.
Oh, I always rat them out to Irving. Well, I didn’t the first time, but I always did after that. I mean, even if they are just dumb kids in love, look at it from the perspective of your character. You’re a newly-Harrowed mage, expected to take on all the responsibilities that it entails. Then along comes this pesky kid from your days as an apprentice, trying to exploit your new position to get you to go into a forbidden vault, steal his phylactery and destroy it so he can run off and turn apostate. And all of this on your first day!
And to be honest, Jowan was already acting plenty suspicious before all this started, what with all that talk about the rite of tranquility and whatnot. Wondering why you haven’t been through your Harrowing yet, Jowan? Maybe it’s because you’re going around acting immature. The senior mages are going to pick up on that.
If you listen to the dialogues between her and Jowan (and you can actually speak to Jowan after they join you) you hear the silly, optimistic and totally stupid dreams they have about him giving up magic and them going to live on a farm. They just sound like every other very young, naive kid in love I've ever witnessed.
Jowan can no more give up his fascination with magic than she can actually accept his magical nature. Burying your head in the sand and pretending it will go away isn't very effective, but that's what they plan on doing.
I agree, they do come across as naive teenagers who're so sure their love will conquer all, but the moment their resolve is tested they fall apart.
I wouldn't say Jowan tampered with blood magic out of "fascination with magic," though. He comes across as pretty whiny and pathetic when you meet him, and if you pick certain dialogue choices he reveals that he was never an especially gifted mage, and always envied the PC for being so gifted. Add this to how his Harrowing was long delayed (he came to the Circle a year before you, and is implied to be older than you, yet you got your Harrowing first), and how exposition reveals that mages who are considered too weak for the Harrowing are given a "choice" between death and Tranquility instead, and it's likely that Jowan got scared that he'd be considered too weak for the Harrowing and desperately tried to "cheat" by using blood magic to come across as a stronger mage so he'd get his Harrowing and not the chopping block.
At least, that's how I interpret it. I don't personally interpret Jowan's tampering with blood magic as "fascination with magic," I interpret it to be a desperate attempt by a weak idiot to avoid the "death or lobotomy" ultimatum presented b a failed system. They force all mages into a tower, then constantly watch them to make sure they get neither too strong nor too weak. However, they punish the weaklings with death or lobotomy, so of course the weaklings get scared and resort to corruption (in Jowan's case, blood magic to make his spells stronger) to make themselves stronger to try to avoid getting killed or lobotomized by their jailers.
THAT SAID, I do think Jowan's and Lily's belief that their love is strong enough to face all odds and all their problems will be solved by running away to a farm is painfully naive and stupid. It certainly doesn't help that they're quickly spotted right after their "foolproof" plan was put into motion, and Lily quickly turns on Jowan the second her love is tested. "Oh, we're so in love, we're so in love, nothing can come between us, our love will conquer all--OMG YOU'RE A BLOOD MAGE?! GET BACK, MALEFICAR!"
So much for true love. 
I think they might've been fine, if not for the blood magic. Nothing wrong with her silly dreams imo. Abominations are so overrated
Especially if they went out to a farm or something. I doubt it'd be as stressful as Kirkwall.
But that's probably a whole other can of worms. The idea of stress and magic. I think that's the main culprit that causes even worse problems. Take out the stress, take out the problems.
That's the problem though. Life is stress. If they can't deal with small challenges, how are they going to deal with big ones?
Let's just say their plan worked and they did manage to get away. They have a whole new set of stresses to worry about. Since they're a mage and a Chantry sister on the run, they'll spend the rest of their lives looking over their shoulder, worried that they'll be recognized by local Chantry officials. And since they're penniless and farming is backbreaking labor that pays next to squat, they'll be doing hard labor for years just to put food on the table.
Not to mention, farming is difficult and unpredictable. It's not like Farmville where you just stick seeds in the ground and they instantly grow. Sometimes they don't grow. Sometimes they grow too slowly or not well enough. Sometimes they get stolen by people or eaten by wild animals. Sometimes the weather's against you, which could mean life-or-death in the middle ages back before irrigation. Since the food they grow is the source of their income, every drought, every flood, every frost, every blight (lower-case blight, like mold or rot, not upper-case Blight like darkspawn) could mean the difference between putting food on the table and going hungry all winter. Not to mention how backbreaking the labor is by itself if the crops grow as planned.
I wonder how much Lily would love Jowan when she has hard hands from hard labor, weak from child-bearing, living in a little hut, worried about whether the local Chantry in the local village will ever have people who'll recognize them, worried about whether or not this year's crops will grow enough to make rent, pay taxes, and have enough leftover that they'll have enough to eat during winter.
I think it certainly helps that for all her, "Oh, we're in love! Nothing will ever come between us, our love will conquer all!" the second Lily's conviction for Jowan was tested, by learning he was a blood mage, she instantly turned on him. It wasn't even just, "Jowan, you lied to me," or "I never thought you were the kind who could use blood magic," he was a completely different person to her. She instantly demonized him, and saw him not as a man who made a dumb mistake, but a monster wearing a man's skin who lied and used her from the very start.
Honestly, if Lily's love for Jowan could evaporate so quickly and easily over such a small thing, she didn't love him as much as she thought she did, and something would have come between them sooner or later.
My Amell broke no rules.
My latest Amell Louisa did as well.
Our Amell's are the supicous sort, aren't they?
I feel like the lone Surana in a sea of Amells. 
I feel like the lone Surana in a sea of Amells.
I have a Surana, as well. She's just less played..... compared to my Amell...
I agree, they do come across as naive teenagers who're so sure their love will conquer all, but the moment their resolve is tested they fall apart.
Surprising view from you. You do make a good point though. Farming is hard work. I never thought otherwise. Although I never expected them to own a farm themselves. It'd start off more humble than that. I doubt you could even own a farm without proclaiming some fealty to the nobility anyways, which would require too much public interaction...Banns would more than likely own them. But that's kind of a side point. I just thought they'd work on a farm.
My main point is that I think most mages could be fine if we just left them alone. Just like most people would be fine if we left them the hell alone. lol. I even think Uldred himself might've been fine without the pressures of leadership or Wynne's nagging. Or that Reverend Mother making him feel like crap simply for recommending battle strategy at Ostagar. That kind of stuff over and over again eats at people and then they implode.
That's what that other mage Ines says too. Too bad we don't get to see her again.. she sounded like a good potential mage companion. Better than Wynne at least.
I liked Surana more too.. but male. I love the contrast with Jowan and Lily, if I romance Leliana. But it's not my favorite Warden. Mage-wise, I probably prefer Hawke.
I feel like the lone Surana in a sea of Amells.
My M!Surana is my canon Warden, and i have yet to start an Amell. You're not alone.
[Edit] You also raise an excellent point about how immature and lovestruck Jowan and Lily are, although of course my Warden wasn't much better for going along with their plan and believing all their blather about love conquering all. He didn't instantly demonize Jowan quite the way Lily did, but he was horrified, upset and disappointed in his (ex-) best friend nonetheless.
Modifié par springacres, 10 décembre 2015 - 05:54 .
I've played both, but after DA2, that really settled it.. One Amell is enough. Just like one elf is enough. I'm not a fan of that kind of overlap in general. It starts to look a little too convenient with the same type of hero all the time. It'd be different if it was like ME and it was exactly the same hero.
Plus, as much as I like elf rogues (my preferred class here), they make the best mages instead...
My M!Surana is my canon Warden, and i have yet to start an Amell. You're not alone.
[Edit] You also raise an excellent point about how immature and lovestruck Jowan and Lily are, although of course my Warden wasn't much better for going along with their plan and believing all their blather about love conquering all. He didn't instantly demonize Jowan quite the way Lily did, but he was horrified, upset and disappointed in his (ex-) best friend nonetheless.
My mage found out how he'd have to get the key and realized...this doesn't have a hope in hell of being something I can get away with pulling. Sorry Jowan, I'm throwing you under the bus. Not my favourite origin.
My mage found out how he'd have to get the key and realized...this doesn't have a hope in hell of being something I can get away with pulling. Sorry Jowan, I'm throwing you under the bus. Not my favourite origin.
I don't do this, but it's still kind of funny... and sad at the same time. The measure even a good mage has to go through. Irving probably did it himself when he was young lol.
Surprising view from you. You do make a good point though.
Lol how is it surprising? I thought I made it clear that I'm a grumpy old misanthrope who takes a dim view of all that is good in the world. 
In general though, I don't think Lily seems like a woman of very strong convictions. I don't believe in ****-shaming, but she did take a vow of chastity, which is hard to do when temptation comes a-knocking, but then she quickly gave in the moment she found a cute guy. After starting a physical relationship with him she asserted that this was twu luv and she was going to hold to her conviction of staying with Jowan no matter what difficulties life threw at them--then, like before, she instantly caved and abandoned him the second her convictions were tested.
I don't know, she just don't seem to be a woman of strong convictions in general, so I imagine the harsh difficulties of life in poverty would have disillusioned her and she would have bailed sooner or later, once she realized that life on the run, doing back-breaking labor on a farm wasn't the idyllic life she envisioned.
My main point is that I think most mages could be fine if we just left them alone. Just like most people would be fine if we left them the hell alone. lol. I even think Uldred himself might've been fine without the pressures of leadership or Wynne's nagging. Or that Reverend Mother making him feel like crap simply for recommending battle strategy at Ostagar. That kind of stuff over and over again eats at people and then they implode.
Ah, that's a fair point. I agree, and it's the main reason I don't really blame Jowan for turning to blood magic.
My M!Surana is my canon Warden, and i have yet to start an Amell. You're not alone.
[Edit] You also raise an excellent point about how immature and lovestruck Jowan and Lily are, although of course my Warden wasn't much better for going along with their plan and believing all their blather about love conquering all. He didn't instantly demonize Jowan quite the way Lily did, but he was horrified, upset and disappointed in his (ex-) best friend nonetheless.
Yay!
Yeah... my Surana didn't think much of their relationship. She just agreed to help Jowan to save him from being made Tranquil. He may be whiny and pathetic, and she may pick on him a lot, but he's the closest thing to family she ever had, so she would literally move mountains to keep him safe. Even after he was revealed to be a blood mage she wasn't sorry she helped him, and even told the Templar, "I'd do it again if given the chance." She wasn't even mad to learn he was a blood mage, she was just mad that he lied about it. It's like, "You asked me to risk my life and my freedom for you (which I did gladly). The least you could do was be honest about it."
Yeah... my Surana didn't think much of their relationship. She just agreed to help Jowan to save him from being made Tranquil. He may be whiny and pathetic, and she may pick on him a lot, but he's the closest thing to family she ever had, so she would literally move mountains to keep him safe. Even after he was revealed to be a blood mage she wasn't sorry she helped him, and even told the Templar, "I'd do it again if given the chance." She wasn't even mad to learn he was a blood mage, she was just mad that he lied about it. It's like, "You asked me to risk my life and my freedom for you (which I did gladly). The least you could do was be honest about it."
My Surana was horrified to discover he had helped a blood mage, period. [Headcanon alert!] It didn't help that he also discovered blood magic makes him physically ill. (One of my problems with writing him into DA fanfics, in fact, is figuring out how to have that reaction make sense. He's a longstanding OC of mine, and as a healer he doesn't have that reaction to blood, even blood shed during a battle where magic was used. It's specific to blood magic.)
Is it absolutely certain that Jowan is made tranquil if you suggest that he is sent back to the Circle?
Is it absolutely certain that Jowan is made tranquil if you suggest that he is sent back to the Circle?
The only alternative is execution.
What is it like to play a Surana? Do you get both elf and mage exclusive dialogue over the course of the game?
A little. You can choose whether they originated from the Alienage or from Lothering in dialogue, and you get some overlap with City Elf dialogue when speaking to Leli (it's slightly different than the Dalish stuff with her, but not much).. but it's probably the most open ended origin besides Amell. More open still though, because even Amell gets expanded on because of Hawke.
Oh, and Duncan has extra dialogue at the Circle with you. You first hear about Garahel there.
I agree, they do come across as naive teenagers who're so sure their love will conquer all, but the moment their resolve is tested they fall apart.
I wouldn't say Jowan tampered with blood magic out of "fascination with magic," though. He comes across as pretty whiny and pathetic when you meet him, and if you pick certain dialogue choices he reveals that he was never an especially gifted mage, and always envied the PC for being so gifted. Add this to how his Harrowing was long delayed (he came to the Circle a year before you, and is implied to be older than you, yet you got your Harrowing first), and how exposition reveals that mages who are considered too weak for the Harrowing are given a "choice" between death and Tranquility instead, and it's likely that Jowan got scared that he'd be considered too weak for the Harrowing and desperately tried to "cheat" by using blood magic to come across as a stronger mage so he'd get his Harrowing and not the chopping block.
At least, that's how I interpret it. I don't personally interpret Jowan's tampering with blood magic as "fascination with magic," I interpret it to be a desperate attempt by a weak idiot to avoid the "death or lobotomy" ultimatum presented b a failed system. They force all mages into a tower, then constantly watch them to make sure they get neither too strong nor too weak. However, they punish the weaklings with death or lobotomy, so of course the weaklings get scared and resort to corruption (in Jowan's case, blood magic to make his spells stronger) to make themselves stronger to try to avoid getting killed or lobotomized by their jailers.
THAT SAID, I do think Jowan's and Lily's belief that their love is strong enough to face all odds and all their problems will be solved by running away to a farm is painfully naive and stupid. It certainly doesn't help that they're quickly spotted right after their "foolproof" plan was put into motion, and Lily quickly turns on Jowan the second her love is tested. "Oh, we're so in love, we're so in love, nothing can come between us, our love will conquer all--OMG YOU'RE A BLOOD MAGE?! GET BACK, MALEFICAR!"
So much for true love.
That's the problem though. Life is stress. If they can't deal with small challenges, how are they going to deal with big ones?
Let's just say their plan worked and they did manage to get away. They have a whole new set of stresses to worry about. Since they're a mage and a Chantry sister on the run, they'll spend the rest of their lives looking over their shoulder, worried that they'll be recognized by local Chantry officials. And since they're penniless and farming is backbreaking labor that pays next to squat, they'll be doing hard labor for years just to put food on the table.
Not to mention, farming is difficult and unpredictable. It's not like Farmville where you just stick seeds in the ground and they instantly grow. Sometimes they don't grow. Sometimes they grow too slowly or not well enough. Sometimes they get stolen by people or eaten by wild animals. Sometimes the weather's against you, which could mean life-or-death in the middle ages back before irrigation. Since the food they grow is the source of their income, every drought, every flood, every frost, every blight (lower-case blight, like mold or rot, not upper-case Blight like darkspawn) could mean the difference between putting food on the table and going hungry all winter. Not to mention how backbreaking the labor is by itself if the crops grow as planned.
I wonder how much Lily would love Jowan when she has hard hands from hard labor, weak from child-bearing, living in a little hut, worried about whether the local Chantry in the local village will ever have people who'll recognize them, worried about whether or not this year's crops will grow enough to make rent, pay taxes, and have enough leftover that they'll have enough to eat during winter.
I think it certainly helps that for all her, "Oh, we're in love! Nothing will ever come between us, our love will conquer all!" the second Lily's conviction for Jowan was tested, by learning he was a blood mage, she instantly turned on him. It wasn't even just, "Jowan, you lied to me," or "I never thought you were the kind who could use blood magic," he was a completely different person to her. She instantly demonized him, and saw him not as a man who made a dumb mistake, but a monster wearing a man's skin who lied and used her from the very start.
Honestly, if Lily's love for Jowan could evaporate so quickly and easily over such a small thing, she didn't love him as much as she thought she did, and something would have come between them sooner or later.
I feel like the lone Surana in a sea of Amells.
His 'fascination with magic' is apparent in the basement when Lily makes a comment while talking to the statue (or maybe it's when you use the statue/torch to burn to the wall to access the phylactery room) to the effect of "Why do you guys have all this (evil/bad) magic stuff in the basement?" and begs you to stop talkign to it, like it's suddenly going to spring to life and wail on your noggins or something. He says something like "It's magic" or "it's (magical) history" with such awe you can hear his love of magic in his voice. I have to paraphrase, because it's been a few years since I played Origins and don't recall the exact wording, but I do remember the feeling it gave me. My point is, he's far too interested in magic to just go cold turkey, like they both say. Both are suffering from the blush/rose colored goggles of first love, and I completely agree, the moment it's tested, their 'twue wuv' crumbles like the house of sand it is.
I do think Jowan cared about Lily more than she did him. She completely writes him off as soon as he is revealed (trying to protect her btw) and he asks about her fate later when you encounter him in the dungeon at Redcliffe. Though probably a lot of it is tied up in guilt as well, I do think he loved her. It was just more the naive love of someone who chose to bury his head in the sand and see that love through rose colored glasses.
Beyond just the stresses you mentioned, all good points btw, there is the worry about 'which of our children is going to start setting fire to villager's hair?' they will have to live under every day. Meredith's family thought to hide their magical child from templars and we all know how that turned out. Not to mention the debacle with Connor. Knowing her family history, Isolde must have wakened each morning in dread after first learning she was pregnant wondering if her son would inherit the 'family curse'.
As for the blood magic, he studied it to be 'as good as the PC'. After Connor's demon is dealt with you can ask Teagan what will happen to Jowan. He leaves it up to you if you tell him "I want to execute him". Whether you decide to execute him or not (you also get the option to leave him alive at the end of the conversation) you can talk to him and specifically ask Jowan "Why the blood magic?" and he will admit he would never be as good as the warden and studied it so he could match your skill. Essentially he's jealous of your superior skills.
I love Surana, Neria is my 'canon', so you aren't alone liking them . You get elf and mage specific dialogues and the best flirt line with Teagan is with a mage. Alistair even has some cute additional dialogue/flirts with a mage warden.
A little. You can choose whether they originated from the Alienage or from Lothering in dialogue, and you get some overlap with City Elf dialogue when speaking to Leli (it's slightly different than the Dalish stuff with her, but not much).. but it's probably the most open ended origin besides Amell. More open still though, because even Amell gets expanded on because of Hawke.
Oh, and Duncan has extra dialogue at the Circle with you. You first hear about Garahel there.
You can also say you were from Highever, but for RP purposes I'd go with either Denerim (canon for my M!Surana) or Lothering - assuming the Warden remembers where they're from.
I never read Lily as being particularly influenced by Jowan. At times it actually seemed like she was the one pushing him to try and escape the tower, telling him that he was up for the Rite of Tranquility and how to get through the magically locked doors. She also knew he was a suspected blood mage and that helping him escape would be a huge betrayal in any case, and then instantly refused to associate with him when it was confirmed that he was.
I'm not saying that she wasn't just a stupid girl who got in over her head, but I'm equally convinced that she was a plant for the Templars who was supposed to get him into trouble so they'd have an excuse to "Tranquilize" him, who then got to take the fall for it blowing up in their faces.
I never read Lily as being particularly influenced by Jowan. At times it actually seemed like she was the one pushing him to try and escape the tower, telling him that he was up for the Rite of Tranquility and how to get through the magically locked doors. She also knew he was a suspected blood mage and that helping him escape would be a huge betrayal in any case, and then instantly refused to associate with him when it was confirmed that he was.
I'm not saying that she wasn't just a stupid girl who got in over her head, but I'm equally convinced that she was a plant for the Templars who was supposed to get him into trouble so they'd have an excuse to "Tranquilize" him, who then got to take the fall for it blowing up in their faces.
...no. The Templars had no need for another excuse to tranquil him. They had already presented their evidence to the First Enchanter and convinced him to sign off on it. The evidence does say that she planned Jowan's escape because she refused to believe he was a blood mage until she actually saw him use it.
...no. The Templars had no need for another excuse to tranquil him. They had already presented their evidence to the First Enchanter and convinced him to sign off on it. The evidence does say that she planned Jowan's escape because she refused to believe he was a blood mage until she actually saw him use it.
Not legally, no, but using pretty young Chantry sisters to spy on the lonely young mages would be a pretty effective strategy in and of itself, one that would only work if they kept it very discrete, and it's a bit of a coincidence for Lily to attach herself to one of the whiniest and magically weakest apprentices around at about the same time where he's getting suspicious for not having been called in for his Harrowing only for that guy to turn out to have dabbled in blood magic. And she talks enthusiastically enough about their love, but we never see her showing any particular affection for Jowan and when he actually demonstrates blood magic she instantly shuts him out and tries to hide behind Greagoir.
And I'm not sure what evidence you're talking about. It's what she says, certainly, but that would just make her a complete idiot. I'm not saying that isn't the case, just that the other theory is deeper and cooler and fits the circumstances leading up to the whole mess better.
There would be no reason for Lily to concoct the escape plan and go through the motions of it if she did not want Jowan to escape. And she's substantially less stupid than the mage who helps them.
There would be no reason for Lily to concoct the escape plan and go through the motions of it if she did not want Jowan to escape. And she's substantially less stupid than the mage who helps them.
Wouldn't there? If she was there to spy on Jowan for her own advancement within the Chantry then personally "proving" him to be worth executing or tranquilizing would be the best thing that could possibly happen for her career. And since he wouldn't admit to having dabbled in blood magic despite her seduction, pushing him to try to escape and fail and then go running to the Knight-Commander would be an obvious way for her to claim credit. She gets awfully quiet and reticent when you find a way around the door that she inexplicably didn't know would be impassable, maybe she meant for you to all to give up and go back then, and then she could rat you both out as having tried to run away and be credited for the capture of two traitorous mages for the price of one.
Only Jowan and the mage protagonist actually manage to get them into the phylactery storage, at which point she knows she's in trouble for taking her little scheme way too far, and that her only hope is for the whole thing to go smoothly and extricate herself or to throw herself at Greagoir's feet at first opportunity and hope for mercy. Greagoir, who's furious at her for actually leading them to the phylacteries and doesn't want to make anyone suspicious his dirty little spy program, immediately sentences her to be incarcerated for being a troublemaker.
And again, the alternative is that she knowingly tries to help a suspected blood mage escape and then turns her back on him the moment he -surprise!- demonstrates blood magic. The mage protagonist at least has the added incentive of escaping the tower him/herself.
Wouldn't there? If she was there to spy on Jowan for her own advancement within the Chantry then personally "proving" him to be worth executing or tranquilizing would be the best thing that could possibly happen for her career.
She would have already done that. The First Enchanter had already agreed to Jowan being made tranquil. He's not going to make Jowan double-tranquil.
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