80 réponses à ce sujet

[LemurFromTheId]

We even have omni-crossbows.

 

...which is something Bioware should just forget.

 

What's the point of having weapons in the first place if an omni-tool can shoot an endless amount of projectiles with better damage output than many actual weapons?

 

Mass Effect is full of space magic, but holographic bows & arrows are too much for my taste. One thing I always loved about ME universe was how it always tried to root itself on reality: despite being futuristic sci-fi, we had weapons that mostly behaved like real firearms. But now we're getting more and more silly stuff like swords and bows and arrows and fantastic energy weapons... Mass Effect is slowly losing it's identity and becoming a mish-mash where anything goes.

[Jooblie]

If this class seems impractical to you, or yuj dont want to use it, its that simple, dont use it! Thats the wonderful thing about having classes "plural". They'res one for everyone's playstyle. No one is forcing you to do a complete runthrough of every class in the game. It would be pretty hard for bioware to make all the classes appeal to everyone.

[Laughing_Man]

If this class seems impractical to you, or yuj dont want to use it, its that simple, dont use it! Thats the wonderful thing about having classes "plural". They'res one for everyone's playstyle. No one is forcing you to do a complete runthrough of every class in the game. It would be pretty hard for bioware to make all the classes appeal to everyone.

 

It's not about a particular class, it's about minimal respect to the logic of the lore you created.

[Cyonan]

It's not about a particular class, it's about minimal respect to the logic of the lore you created.

 

The lore is full of people that use melee in combat. Even before Kai Leng, Krogan charges were always a thing.

 

I don't see why it would be such a stretch to have a Human with a specialized hardsuit designed to maximize strength.

[Han Shot First]

 

 

 

Isn't it a little late for that?

 

Not really. Kai Leng and his ninja-sword of doom weren't exactly a high point in the series. This is what should have happened to Kai Leng. I'd rather Bioware just pretended swords weren't a thing in previous games.

 

Having said that, I fully expect to be disappointed. I have no doubt that we'll be seeing sword-wielding enemies and hammer-wielding Krogan, whether or not the protagonist can also use those weapons. I just find the use of anachronistic melee weapons to be one of the sillier aspects of the series and would rather not see them return. 

[Cunning Villain]

Mass Effect is full of space magic, but holographic bows & arrows are too much for my taste. One thing I always loved about ME universe was how it always tried to root itself on reality: despite being futuristic sci-fi, we had weapons that mostly behaved like real firearms. But now we're getting more and more silly stuff like swords and bows and arrows and fantastic energy weapons... Mass Effect is slowly losing it's identity and becoming a mish-mash where anything goes.

So you can rationalize human beings possessing the ability to manipulate "dark energy" with their minds, but you draw the line at swords and holographic bows and crossbows?

 

As for the point of the thread, I don't really care. Bring it all in. Someone darting around the battlefield with a sword akin to a high-frequency blade from the MGS series and a holographic crossbow in their single-player campaign doesn't have any effect on mine. I will also freely admit that I would be doing the same thing, because it would be fun.

[LemurFromTheId]

So you can rationalize human beings possessing the ability to manipulate "dark energy" with their minds, but you draw the line at swords and holographic bows and crossbows?

 

As for the point of the thread, I don't really care. Bring it all in. Someone darting around the battlefield with a sword akin to a high-frequency blade from the MGS series and a holographic crossbow in their single-player campaign doesn't have any effect on mine. I will also freely admit that I would be doing the same thing, because it would be fun.

 

Biotics are part of the very premise of the Mass Effect universe. Omni-bows are just fantasy stuff added later that don't make much sense even within the game's own lore. And why do ordinary sidearms even exist if you can have such effective ranged weapons that can just materialize out of thin air?

 

I know that for a lot of people anything goes as long as its "cool". I guess I'm just different in that regard. For me internal consistency and in-universe realism are much more important than the Rule of Cool, because the only way a story can retain willing suspension of disbelief is by sticking to its own rules.

[Belial]

What's the point of having weapons in the first place if an omni-tool can shoot an endless amount of projectiles with better damage output than many actual weapons?

 

I don't know, what's the point of having weapons when we have biotics? If you can accept an omni-tool creating endless blades out of nothing then why not arrows?

 

Biotics are part of the very premise of the Mass Effect universe. Omni-bows are just fantasy stuff added later that don't make much sense even within the game's own lore. And why do ordinary sidearms even exist if you can have such effective ranged weapons that can just materialize out of thin air?

 

Not true, even the Codex in ME1 mentions the Omni-tool's minifacturing fabricator being able to rapidly create 3-dimentional objects. Sure making them out of nothing doesn't make sense (just like Omni-blades) but the Omni-bows themselves don't contradict the lore. Besides it's not like ammo in the ME universe doesn't materialize out of thin air as well (despite them trying to go around that by introducing thermal clips).

 

 

Not really. Kai Leng and his ninja-sword of doom weren't exactly a high point in the series. This is what should have happened to Kai Leng. I'd rather Bioware just pretended swords weren't a thing in previous games.

 

Having said that, I fully expect to be disappointed. I have no doubt that we'll be seeing sword-wielding enemies and hammer-wielding Krogan, whether or not the protagonist can also use those weapons. I just find the use of anachronistic melee weapons to be one of the sillier aspects of the series and would rather not see them return. 

 

Personally, since we're moving to another galaxy with completely unknown technology, it would seem more realistic to me if the enemies used more unconventional weapons rather than typical firearms.

[Dantriges]

 

I don't know, what's the point of having weapons when we have biotics? If you can accept an omni-tool creating endless blades out of nothing then why not arrows?

Because not everyone is able to use biotics? The only species where you could make a case that they didn´t develop firearms would be the asari and even for them artillery would be a thing.

Besides it's not like ammo in the ME universe doesn't materialize out of thin air as well (despite them trying to go around that by introducing thermal clips).

The ME 1 codex has a long entry about ammo and why it´s not relevant to count anymore. You could say, it´s a load of BS or so, if you want, but it´s not like they never mentioned why heat is the limiting factor.
 

Personally, since we're moving to another galaxy with completely unknown technology, it would seem more realistic to me if the enemies used more unconventional weapons rather than typical firearms.

Like what? Chain Katanas and Force x-bows which resemble stuff made in a galaxy far, far away? In that case you could just make some exotic looking firearms or whip out the prothean gun, because everyone values a higher engagement range. At last after they got murdered in battle by ranged weapons, trying to walk to the enemy.

[Dalakaar]

Three pages and the best people can come up with against melee can be broken down to failed logic and personal distaste.

 

Yup, I'm feeling pretty good about melee right now.

[Dantriges]

Three pages and the best people can come up with against melee can be broken down to failed logic and personal distaste.

 

Seems the counterargument boils down to "I wanna be a space ninja" aka personal taste and declaring "this logic is faulty because of the reason that I want to swing a sword in space."

[Beastoclock]

Maybe they could introduce a skill tree system instead (a bit like DA:I, the upgrading system was something I really liked throughout the game.) Let's say around 4-6 skill points are available to assign to powers and skills at the start.

 

- adept= all biotic trees are available+ exclusive biotic skill tree only available to the adept that becomes available around 1/2-3/4 way throughout the game. (*this 1/2-3/4 system applies to all classes exlusive skill trees.) 

 

-Soldier= all weapon skills/combat trees are available+exclusive combat tree*

 

-Engineer=all tech trees are available+ exclusive tech tree*

 

-Infiltrator=only specific tech trees and combat trees are available+ exclusive infiltration tree*

 

-Sentinel=only specific biotic and tech trees are available+ exclusive sentinel tree

 

-vanguard=only specific combat and biotic trees are available+ exclusive vanguard tree

[Dalakaar]

Seems the counterargument boils down to "I don't wanna be a space ninja" aka personal taste and declaring "this logic is faulty because of the reason that I don't want to swing a sword in space."

...is basically what I've read in the last three pages. Done arguing when the best the detractors can come up with is recycled arguments over and over again. Melee already exists, the reason for melee to exist has already been stated in this thread, ME:A just needs to expand on the system and balance it. Simple as that.

[Dalakaar]

Beerfish states my take on anyone using "Lore" against melee better than I could've.

 

What is 'lore'?  From what I've seen in both these forums and the Dragon age ones, the only time that is brought up is when someone has a weak beef about a story concept.  Lore is always used in place of this is what we know now and we are going to assume that everything we know now will not and should not change.  Very different than 'Lore'

[Belial]

 Because not everyone is able to use biotics? The only species where you could make a case that they didn´t develop firearms would be the asari and even for them artillery would be a thing.

 

Not everyone would be able (or want) to use omni-bows either, just like not everyone is able to make their omni-tool fire Overloads or Cryo Blasts. I still don't see a reason why its existence would eliminate the need for firearms.

 

 

 The ME 1 codex has a long entry about ammo and why it´s not relevant to count anymore. You could say, it´s a load of BS or so, if you want, but it´s not like they never mentioned why heat is the limiting factor.

 

I know about the ammo blocks. Even though theoretically weapons would ran out eventually, we never had to worry about that in-game. They could do something similar to explain why we don't have to reload our omni-tools during missions. That being said, an explanation would be nice.

 

 

 Like what? Chain Katanas and Force x-bows which resemble stuff made in a galaxy far, far away? In that case you could just make some exotic looking firearms or whip out the prothean gun, because everyone values a higher engagement range. At last after they got murdered in battle by ranged weapons, trying to walk to the enemy.

 

You're assuming the enemies will be humanoids that will be able to operate firearms and will need to walk to the enemy.

[LemurFromTheId]

Three pages and the best people can come up with against melee can be broken down to failed logic and personal distaste.

 

Yup, I'm feeling pretty good about melee right now.

 

Just to be clear, I'm not against melee. I'm against katanas and space ninjas. Bioware could've done something original, but they went with the same old anime tropes we see everywhere, all the time.

[Dalakaar]

Just to be clear, I'm not against melee. I'm against katanas and space ninjas. Bioware could've done something original, but they went with the same old anime tropes we see everywhere, all the time.

That's a poignant distinction and thank you for the clarification. I agree. The only space ninja I'd want to play is a Drell. Cause he'd pull it off with style.

 

Most of my melee desires are centered around a Krogan/Vorcha type of recklessness. Fun, fast, brutal. I already do it in ME3MP, not a stretch to me to have the system expanded on/vastly improved in ME:AMP.

[LemurFromTheId]

I don't know, what's the point of having weapons when we have biotics? If you can accept an omni-tool creating endless blades out of nothing then why not arrows?

 

 

Not true, even the Codex in ME1 mentions the Omni-tool's minifacturing fabricator being able to rapidly create 3-dimentional objects. Sure making them out of nothing doesn't make sense (just like Omni-blades) but the Omni-bows themselves don't contradict the lore. Besides it's not like ammo in the ME universe doesn't materialize out of thin air as well (despite them trying to go around that by introducing thermal clips).

 

 

Personally, since we're moving to another galaxy with completely unknown technology, it would seem more realistic to me if the enemies used more unconventional weapons rather than typical firearms.

 

Oh please.

 

Biotics don't make weapons obsolete in any way, why would you even suggest something like that?

 

I know omni-tools can manufacture stuff, such as blades that are attached to the user's armour and target-seeking micro-missiles (Incinerate). I don't doubt it can manufacture arrows, too. But how do those arrows - that fly rather slowly, I might add - deal damage comparable with weapons that use mass accelerators to fire bullets at near-relativistic speeds? And why are actual firearms so big and bulky if a little concealed omni-tool can achieve similar effectiveness in combat?

 

It simply doesn't make any sense. It's an internal inconsistency. That, of course, doesn't have to matter to you, but things like these matter to me.

[Silcron]

Reading the thread I've seen someone point out that he wishes they had done something more original than katanas. The thing is, they did, omnitools and omniblades are at least in their form quite unique to ME (I'm not saying the concept is unique, but in how it takes shape.)

In a firefight situation omniblades are already awesome. You get jumped and need to get to melee? You don't even need to draw, just use your arms naturally to punch and swing. It's not just blades either, the batarians had some concussive versions too. If anything I'd like for melee them expanding on omniweapons.

As for the issue of the omnitool not running out of resources, well, I say we can safely assume it is more than sufficietnly recharged between missions, you wouldn't go into a combat situation with low batteries.

[Dantriges]

...is basically what I've read in the last three pages. Done arguing when the best the detractors can come up with is recycled arguments over and over again. Melee already exists, the reason for melee to exist has already been stated in this thread, ME:A just needs to expand on the system and balance it. Simple as that.

Yeah, well, no point in debating further then. 
 

Not everyone would be able (or want) to use omni-bows either, just like not everyone is able to make their omni-tool fire Overloads or Cryo Blasts. I still don't see a reason why its existence would eliminate the need for firearms.

 
Biotics is something only a small subset of the population is able to do. Unless you are asari. You can train nearly everyone to use a gun and "willing to" didn´t really factor in, in wartime.
I don´t see how the existence of the omnitool or biotics would make firearms obsolete, either. That was your argument in case of biotics.
 

I know about the ammo blocks. Even though theoretically weapons would ran out eventually, we never had to worry about that in-game. They could do something similar to explain why we don't have to reload our omni-tools during missions. That being said, an explanation would be nice.

 
The time stated for them to run out of ammo was when the gun was done.
 
 

You're assuming the enemies will be humanoids that will be able to operate firearms and will need to walk to the enemy.

The only confrirmed ones are humanoids? And we were talking about melee for the player+squaddies. So if our enemy is some flying bug that cutsthrough armor like tissue paper, how does that favor using melee on our side? Oh, it´s a total monster if it closes into range, let´s grab some katanas? Get a rifle with a bajonet if it´s some CQC speicialist that closes in quickly so you have something with a bit more distance than a sword, get out if possible and spray that thing from range.

[rocklikeafool]

 

Not really. Kai Leng and his ninja-sword of doom weren't exactly a high point in the series. This is what should have happened to Kai Leng. I'd rather Bioware just pretended swords weren't a thing in previous games.

 

Pretty much. Kai Leng was just silliness all around. He only worked because biotics. But we really don't need "magic space ninjas" anymore. 

I mean, the only reason Krogan charges work is because it takes more bullets to kill a Krogan than to kill a human. If Krogan were like the size of normal humans, there would NEVER have been such a concept as a "Krogan charge". Krogan fulfill the warrior elite society role, a la historical Sparta or the Klingons from Star Trek. No one else really gets away with fighting in the same manner, except vanguard biotics (read: so few an amount of people from non-Krogan races as to not be worth consideration).

[Belial]

Oh please.

Biotics don't make weapons obsolete in any way, why would you even suggest something like that?

It's about as silly as you suggesting omni-bows can replace firearms.

I know omni-tools can manufacture stuff, such as blades that are attached to the user's armour and target-seeking micro-missiles (Incinerate). I don't doubt it can manufacture arrows, too. But how do those arrows - that fly rather slowly, I might add - deal damage comparable with weapons that use mass accelerators to fire bullets at near-relativistic speeds? And why are actual firearms so big and bulky if a little concealed omni-tool can achieve similar effectiveness in combat?

It simply doesn't make any sense. It's an internal inconsistency. That, of course, doesn't have to matter to you, but things like these matter to me.

Ok, I'll agree on that, realistically arrows should do less damage than bullets. Problem is, it's a gameplay mechanic. If you try to pick apart gameplay mechanics you will find a ton of inconsistencies and things that are hard to explain if taken literally. For example, why don't telekinetic biotics affect protected enemies (as far as I know it's never been justified in the lore)? Why do some of the enemies that clearly wear armor not have an armor bar while enemies that don't appear to wear anything have one? How do you explain powers changing effects between games? How about biotic explosions? I can go on forever. I think you just need to accept that gameplay mechanics will never follow the lore 100% accurately.

Biotics is something only a small subset of the population is able to do. Unless you are asari. You can train nearly everyone to use a gun and "willing to" didn´t really factor in, in wartime.
I don´t see how the existence of the omnitool or biotics would make firearms obsolete, either. That was your argument in case of biotics.

I asked a question to point out the fallacy in LemurFromTheId's argument, I wasn't actually arguing that biotics could replace firearms.

The time stated for them to run out of ammo was when the gun was done.

According to who? I'm pretty sure that's not stated in the codex.

The only confrirmed ones are humanoids? And we were talking about melee for the player+squaddies. So if our enemy is some flying bug that cutsthrough armor like tissue paper, how does that favor using melee on our side? Oh, it´s a total monster if it closes into range, let´s grab some katanas? Get a rifle with a bajonet if it´s some CQC speicialist that closes in quickly so you have something with a bit more distance than a sword, get out if possible and spray that thing from range.

??

First of all, you're talking about the "player+squaddies". The original comment you quoted was about enemies having unconventional weapons. Second, melee is situational, obviously you're not gonna try to melee everything. I never asked for a melee only class or whatever, just for more variety in SP so I don't know what you're getting at.

[Dantriges]

I asked a question to point out the fallacy in LemurFromTheId's argument, I wasn't actually arguing that biotics could replace firearms.

Ok.
 
 

According to who? I'm pretty sure that's not stated in the codex.

 
Pretty sure it´s mentioned somewhere, perhaps in game, that it´s more prudent to change the weapon than the ammo. The wiki says thousands of rounds. So anyways, even if it´s only thousands of rounds, you can exchange the block pre drop and that´s it for the mission
 

First of all, you're talking about the "player+squaddies". The original comment you quoted was about enemies having unconventional weapons. Second, melee is situational, obviously you're not gonna try to melee everything. I never asked for a melee only class or whatever, just for more variety in SP so I don't know what you're getting at.

Ah ok. After going through the thread I remember that Han´s post started it with the hammer wielding krogans. Didn´t we have the ability to go melee with all the stuff you could take to enhance melee damage already?

[Silcron]

Ok. Pretty sure it´s mentioned somewhere, perhaps in game, that it´s more prudent to change the weapon than the ammo. The wiki says thousands of rounds. So anyways, even if it´s only thousands of rounds, you can exchange the block pre drop and that´s it for the mission Ah ok. After going through the thread I remember that Han´s post started it with the hammer wielding krogans. Didn´t we have the ability to go melee with all the stuff you could take to enhance melee damage already?

About the second point. What the codex actually states is that guns have a bar of metal inside of them. The gun cuts a sliver of that bar that is enough when propelled by the mass effect to cause lots of damage. Apparently that gives each gun thousands of rounds, but after a long while you just need to replace the bar, which is easy enough and quite cheap.

Gamewise that would mean that depending on the gun and how much you use it you may need to swap that bar after each mission or several (i'd imagine assault rifles and smgs burn through them, while something like the Widow you may need to swap maybe once in the whole game if at all).

Edit: i cant bother to look the exact entry right now, but i remember it being in the weapons or tech section within the ME Codex app for my ipod.

[Mirrman70]

I want them to create some more hybrid classes. I want a tech/combat hybrid that is pretty much a demolitionist. Specialty grenades and an omnitool mini-rocket launcher. emp grenades, incendiary grenades, cryo grenades and an anti-armor missile.