118 réponses à ce sujet

[Godak]

Little Paw wrote...

Overall, the casual gamer is killing the depth of PC games...that is the best argument I have heard so far.
I am sure Diablo III will come out and everyone will scream PC games are back. I know it is blasphemy, but I am not a Diablo fan. I found them quite boring.

I think you found the major "problem" with PC games. Companies like Blizzard and Valve now know that they can ship out projects with minimal effort and rake in loads of cash *Glares at WoW expansions, Half-Life 2 expansions, and Left For Dead 2, which was pretty much an expansion*. PC gamers on a whole do not demand innovation the same way that console gamers do (remember, this forums only has a small number of devoted PC gamers, gamers who are not representative of the majority). Every "generation" is another opportunity for us to force our wants down developer's throats.

And before you ask, no, I don't think PC gaming is dead. I merely believe that the "big PC devs" are getting complacent. This is also starting happening with console devs *glares ferociously at Nintendo*. I think there will be a point where gamers say "Not gonna happen" and developers are forced to create quality products that are fun and innovative.

[Little Paw]

Godak, there are very few great PC game developers. That's the point.

The why, is because gamers in general are more casual, and console gaming is the casual medium.

More Mom's and little kids play video games than 10 years ago. More females overall play video games.

In the 80's being a gamer, or playing PnP D&D was akin to being alienated; a word you used in the other thread.

The hardcore PC gamer who does not play consoles (ME), does not mind being alienated. We consider it a smarter medium with more potential. It's the same as saying I would rather read a book than see the movie. We like hard work, we like the guts of the game, not just the entertainment value. It's the geek thing.



Today, non-gamers are the ones who are considered unaccepted and different.

As gaming becomes more casual, there is less need for very in depth games.

Games are becoming more eye candy and churning out what already works.

I will give Spore, Portal, and a few others kudos for being unique and different, but most games are same flavor, different package.

Just look at howmany sequels there are. That alone tells you how casual the scene is now.

And yes, WoW is the height of casual PC gaming. Nothing new really, but they keep charging for another map, a few skill tweaks, and a new boss or two. BOOOORING!!!

[FlameChucks]

I can understand the whole idea of this forum. We are trying to come to terms as to why this game is more "streamlined". To be honest, you have to look at it in the perspective of the BioWare. A lot of their feedback comes from people who want the game more accessible. Whether it be with the inventory, or the level up system, everything has to be taken into account to make the game better. We are a loud minority here, and we have to come to terms with that. I mean, BioWare didn't have to make the game for the PC, but they did, due to high demand.



Now, i don't want to keep ranting, because i love this game with all of my heart. Yes, it has flaws, and a lot of those flaws deal with the missing RPG elements, but at the end of the day, we are gamers. I just hope that ME3 brings about a more refined idea and conclude the series the way it should.



Lots of explosions and sex....................maybe

[Little Paw]

Great post FlameChucks! Love it!

[Godak]

I still think that this is a bit of a dry spell for innovation in gaming as a whole. I think we're almost at the graphical climax, so it shouldn't more than a decade or so until developers can simply focus on gameplay.

[Rubbish Hero]

Mass Effect 2 is a much better game than Mass Effect in my opinion, which was never a pc game to begin with. Removing and streamlining stuff helped this game, it's not suppose to be like a CRPG such as Dragon Age. Given the games success though, (2 million in one week?) I would be worried. Or, optimistic as action games (not traditional CRPG's) could move in a different direction, away from 90% shoot stuff in the face, 10% story. It's also very cinematic, unlike Metal Gear Solid which consists of basically watching a bunch of cut-scenes, this is interactive and inherently apart of the game-play, like directing a movie.

Modifié par Rubbish Hero, 02 février 2010 - 09:31 .

[Szioul]

Pugnate wrote...

...
http://en.wikipedia....odern_Warfare_2

MW2 sold 10 million copies on the 360, while it sold about 1.5 million on the PC.... yet it was 4.1 million pirated copies were downloaded for the PC, and only about 1 million for the 360....

MW2 is actually a bad example. Not only because it's the most extreme, but because of the game itself. It's a good FPS on a console, but horrible on the PC. It's kind of like when Halo came out on Xbox. Everyone was saying how great it was, because it was the 1st decent FPS on a console. When it was ported to PC, it was just as any other FPS since Quake, mediocre.

[Akimb0]

Stanley Woo wrote...

i've been hearing about the "inevitable" death of PC gaming since we started developing for console. I'll believe it when I see it.

I don't think PC gaming is dying out. It's just getting really, really hard to justify spending my money on games like ME2. I mean I doubt I'll buy ME3 if the downscale of just about everything from ME1>ME2 continues into ME3. What will we end up with? A single corridor, one gun, and an NPC to make a yes/no choice at every 20 steps or so? That's how ME2 looks compared to ME1, so I'm dreading ME3.

Modifié par Akimb0, 02 février 2010 - 03:27 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Szioul wrote...
MW2 is actually a bad example. Not only because it's the most extreme, but because of the game itself. It's a good FPS on a console, but horrible on the PC.

Which would make it relevant to the subject. The developers see 4M players who are unwilling to pay for their game, players see a game that's destroyed by the consoles. The developers concentrate even more on the consoles and the players are even less willing to buy the game.
What's the word? Doom loop?

[Little Paw]

Godak wrote...

I still think that this is a bit of a dry spell for innovation in gaming as a whole. I think we're almost at the graphical climax, so it shouldn't more than a decade or so until developers can simply focus on gameplay.

But Godak, the argument here is that the GAMEPLAY is what is suffering. Some games had better GAMEPLAY 10 year ago.
Graphics are not the issue nor mentioned in my original post.
I am curious. I am 40, are you a bit younger?
The point here is that PC games use less and less of what a PC is capable of as time goes on, especially by ways of utilizing the keyboad and mouse to play.
PC games feel like console games.
There was a time when the PC HAD the more complex games. Now more games are meeting in the middle, which is getting more streamlined for the casual gamer.
Do you see what I am saying?

[Little Paw]

Akimb0 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

i've been hearing about the "inevitable" death of PC gaming since we started developing for console. I'll believe it when I see it.

I don't think PC gaming is dying out. It's just getting really, really hard to justify spending my money on games like ME2. I mean I doubt I'll buy ME3 if the downscale of just about everything from ME1>ME2 continues into ME3. What will we end up with? A single corridor, one gun, and an NPC to make a yes/no choice at every 20 steps or so? That's how ME2 looks compared to ME1, so I'm dreading ME3.

EXACTLY!!!
I hope they hear us screaming that some of the supposed "streamlining" was really a WATERING DOWN of the game.
Yes, story is great.  Combat is more fluid. But, inventory and looting has been reduced to nothing.
Click a button to enact a paragon or renegade choice? What am I, directing a movie or playing a game?

[Godak]

Little Paw wrote...

Godak wrote...

I still think that this is a bit of a dry spell for innovation in gaming as a whole. I think we're almost at the graphical climax, so it shouldn't more than a decade or so until developers can simply focus on gameplay.

But Godak, the argument here is that the GAMEPLAY is what is suffering. Some games had better GAMEPLAY 10 year ago.
Graphics are not the issue nor mentioned in my original post.

I'm simply stating that big name developers are currently pre-occupied with making "flashy" games, which is exactly why gameplay is suffering. It isn't exclusive to PC or console markets.

Little Paw wrote...
I am curious. I am 40, are you a bit younger?
The point here is that PC games use less and less of what a PC is capable of as time goes on, especially by ways of utilizing the keyboad and mouse to play.
PC games feel like console games.
There was a time when the PC HAD the more complex games. Now more games are meeting in the middle, which is getting more streamlined for the casual gamer.
Do you see what I am saying?

I'm 17, but the first systems I played on were from the 80s (Atari, Sega Master System, and the NES) when I moved onto SNES, N64, PS1. After that generation, I moved onto PC gaming, where I played RTSes, MUDs and RPGs. I also took a brief interest in text adventures (the passion died quickly: far too many text-based games are retardly picky when it comes to words). Now I split my time between console and PC.

And yes, PCs used to have more complicated games in comparison to console games. "Why can't PC games stay ahead of the pack?" you ask. Because it won't make money. And no, it isn't because of consoles. It's because the standard PC gamer is just like the standard console gamer: a vast majority that determines the quality of game that everyone else gets to play. Why should developers waste massive amounts of time and money on a game that we (the minority) would consider amazing if it won't make money (As things stand now, making a game with sub-par graphics is outrageously expensive!)? "Casual" gamers are not limited to the console market. Hell, I'd say the concept of "casual" gaming was popularized by homebrew flash games.

Again, if you have problems with controls on the PC, edit them yourself. If a game doesn't allow custom control schemes, light it on fire.

Just to reiterate my main point: Developers want more people to buy games, so they make quick, easy games that require very little time and effort. I hope that we can turn this new "casual" market into a more "hardened" core market, so we can start getting the good stuff once more.

Modifié par Godak, 03 février 2010 - 12:35 .

[Little Paw]

The text games being picky about words is the point. That is the mechanism of challenge in a text based game.

What we absolutely agree on is that the console market is huge, casual gamers are the majority, thus lessening the need and marketability of games designed for or with the PC in mind.



That, or just give me my inventory back!!!

In the past gaming companies would "take advantage" of the PC keyboard and mouse...but now we are reduced to you saying edit them yourself.

That is an admission that PC is an afterthought now, thus proving the point of my original post.

[nathan mcduck]

When thinking about games watered down for consoles the first thing that springs to my mind is the step from Morrowind to Oblivion.

Morrowind was PC only and then ported to console, Oblivion was developed for console and additionally made available for PC.

In Morrowind when you oppened the Inventory you had windows for stats, spells, map, inventory etc. each of them could be resized and arranged per drag and drop or even minimized. You could basically decide how your information was displayed. You basically had all information that was relevant to you on one personalized screen. In Oblivion you get one window with an extremely fancy border, you then use the tabs to switch from Map to Inventory to Spells etc. Additionally text is anoyingly large, so large in fact that in the German version (words are typically a bit longer in German than English) many names didn't even fit on the screen.

In Morrowind when accepting a mission you got a name of a person or place and a direction. Like 'Follow the cost east until you see two big spires on the horizon then follow the trail south leading up a hill, the cave is said to be near the top'. That's authentic, that's exploration. In Oblivion a marker appears and your compass tells you the way. Mods allow to disable this, but since you're not provided with directions you need the marker. Console games for some reason always try to integrate weird mini games. Why is this the case? Who enjoys this? In Morrowind when you pick a lock the game does a skill check. Either it opens or it doesn't. In Oblivion you play a weird mini game with tumblers. In Morrowind if you want to get better reputation through dialogue you think about the personality of your partner and either charm or threaten them or try making a joke. In Oblivion, surprise surprise, you play a mini game.
Fast travel in Oblivon: open the map click where you want to go.
Fast Travel in Morrowind: Go to a mages guild teleporter or port or transport service. Learn the fastest routes set you're teleportation spells at convenient locations.

Just a thought on planet scanning in ME2. How about the following:
If I'm looking for a certain ressource I go to somebody who might know something. Mayby a person selling star charts are a volus running a mining operation. I ask them about Iridium in this part of the galaxy. They then tell me that I should look for planets with following attributes: Iridium is usually found near the poles of planets with gravity around x, mass around x etc. Maybe for an additional fee they'll even tell me the names of some of the planets. Or if I hear that somebody is running a mining operation on a specific planet, well that might just be a clue where to find my platinum for example.

[Seraosha]

PC gaming would be a lot stronger right now if not for the insatiable parasites who would rather torrent video games than pay good money for them. Gamers have brought this down upon their own heads. That said, the PC as a gaming platform is far from dead.

How can you say PC gaming is dying with quality games like DA:O and Mass Effect 2 offering far superior experiences over their console counterparts. How can you say that in the year that Blizzard will unleash Starcraft 2 on the world? Next year we'll have Diablo III. It's going to be beautiful.

Not to mention the fact that the PC is more than just prohibitively expensive hardware these days. People are playing games through Facebook, EA have been releasing free browser games in support of their bigger franchises such as that Battlefield game and Dragon Age: Journey's. As internet connections improve, it's going to be far easier and far cheaper to deliver quality games to gamers straight through download.

There's still a hell of a lot of firepower in the PC. It's only going to get better and stronger, not weaker, from here on out.

Modifié par Seraosha, 03 février 2010 - 04:22 .

[Olwaye]

To add my two cents to the discussion here.
I think that the most of the games published now are watered down when it comes to plot and depth.

As it has been stated in previous post this come from the uge expansion of the gaming market and the way most of the people are playing : casualy, as a relief after a day at work.
More people are playing games be it on consoles or PC ( I play on PC and I've got a Xbox 360) and the seperation that existed when I was a kid ( little kiddies played the consoles with the "silly" games and young adults(sic) played more serious games on the PC) is not relevant anymore.
As a result most of the game companies caters for the largest target possible (nothing wrong with that, it's safe and sound company policy) and these companies have become larger with maybe a little less "geek" in their executive staff, so they are a little less willing to do too different.

Then there is the fact that the technologie as evolved so quickly that we are still in the stage of being in awe at the images like people were with the first movies. I know video games aren't new but to this level and to that large a crowd it might be the first time.

I do think things will settle down and some companies will listen to the nerdy again and produce more in-depth game. After all this is a niche as good as any other.

Now someone mentioned the mods, well this is defenitely one of the biggest advantage of the PC, and it is possible that it will be the way forward for PC player to get more complicated games. In the end the hardcore PC gamers is a tinkerer at heart ( I started to play PC game, feeding pages of codes taken from computer mags to my old Amstrad CPC).

Oh and then there is the way we play as well I guess. As somebody pointed out, we( as in 1st or 2nd generation gamers) are all older with families/ responsability and most of us have change their way of playing.
I know I haven't done a full sleepless night on the PC for a while. So we are creating less demand for in-depth games.
As for RPG, as much as I enjoy PC or consoles RPG, I still do pnp as often as possible, no game as beaten that so far for me ( my skill in slicing/ eating/ digesting cold pizza must be level 150 by now.)

[Little Paw]

Wow, some really thoughtful posts...thanks guys. Fun to read!!!



As far as PC games, I know the hardcore gamers are waiting for Diablo III and Starcraft 2.

I am waiting for The Witcher II.

Of all the gaming companies I wish still existed, I miss Troika with The Vampire series.

[Godak]

Little Paw wrote...

Wow, some really thoughtful posts...thanks guys. Fun to read!!!

As far as PC games, I know the hardcore gamers are waiting for Diablo III and Starcraft 2.

Diablo 3 seems far more interesting. If the 3D world can keep the eerie atmosphere of 2, it's a must have.

Starcraft 2 just seems like another WoW-esque money grab. Still, I suppose optimism is always the best course of action...

[Olwaye]

Little Paw wrote...
Of all the gaming companies I wish still existed, I miss Troika with The Vampire series.

Ah Troika, *sight* I loved Arcanum (despite all the bugs). Spend nights on it together with BG.

[Akiada]

PC gaming has been "dying" since forever. It's that age-old doomsday myth (This year will be the one that sky finally falls! You'll see!) that never comes to fruition.

Valve's "Steam" program is at several hundred million users and growing. If PC gaming were dying in any way, Valve would not be swimming in cash, and, indeed, Valve Software's game cater more to their PC market than consoles (See: Team Fortress 2, where PC users enjoy tons of free content that Xbox ones can't, due to being locked down on free content funtime by Microsoft). Continuing  the Valve example, there's a number of ways to use the PC's modality to enchance user experience - the ability to use the console to map various commands to keys (like another voice-rosetta in L4D) as well as releasing tools to enable fans to develop new maps, models, etc. Bethesda Software also exploits modding, building their game with the same set they release to fans (and including an .ESP/.ESM file system that has master files (.ESM) that comprise core game files, as well as smaller mods (.ESPs).

One boneheaded design decision by a Bioware employee (likely the same lunkhead who thought "holding down the RMB to scan planets is awesome! It won't get incredibly painful after the third planet or anything!") doesn't spell the death of PC Gaming. Bioware isn't the entire PC Gaming market. They're a good company - but they're not the only one.

XianduSER wrote...

I have liked pc gaming for awhile now, but it has always had 1 big problem, money.
The biggest reason for pc's decline is because it is too expensive to upgrade your computer to play the newest games. Where as consoles have cycles and it's a 1 time purchase for typically 5 years or more in the current gen. I think if pc gaming wants to compete then it needs to slow down how fast it grows or the game companies need to make the game not as intensive on computers for people with a tight budget. So with that said, game companies do see consoles are the money machines and even great pc companies like Bioware are in a way forced to make things more console like. Sad but true.

It's only expensive if you don't have any experience with computers. A hard-drive, assuming you don't fill it up with huge files is not terribly expensive, and can last a loooong time. A processor can last quite some time, as it takes about the same time for a console to become obsolete (hence why new consoles are made - they have to update that most basic bit of hardware) and a graphics can, similarly, last a long time.

It's not the PC's fault that more people don't learn to build computers themselves. It's not hard! It's all about knowing how much your power supply can maintain, what parts can go in what, and how long they'll last.

Eurypterid wrote...

Why would you want three separate keys if you cannot use those three functions simultaneously anyway? I have no trouble with the 'streamlining' of that nature.

Uh, because I want to be able to memorize "use" as seperate from "Sprint" and not have the decision of whether I'm "taking cover" or "vaulting over cover into a hail of mass-accelerated death" determined by whether or not my finger is still on the W key when Shepard reaches cover?

It is exceptionally annoying. Having seperate keys for seperate functions -even ones that cannot be used in unison - is one of the advantages of a keyboard.

Pugnate wrote...

I am a hardcore PC gamer through and through, but just once I'd like to see these discussions end with someone pointing the finger at PC gamers.

PC gamers are killing PC gaming. You want Bioware to pay better attention to the PC? Well tell you friends to stop torrenting the damn thing, and actually pay some money for it.

http://en.wikipedia....odern_Warfare_2

MW2 sold 10 million copies on the 360, while it sold about 1.5 million on the PC.... yet it was 4.1 million pirated copies were downloaded for the PC, and only about 1 million for the 360.

Let's examine that ratio.

10 million legit copies sold for the 360, and 1 million pirated.

1.5 million copies sold on the PC, yet 4.1 million pirated.

You want to know what's killing PC gaming?

PC gamers.

MW2 was pirated out of spite.

They didn't want to give IW money for (effectively) telling PC Gamers to get ****ed by removing Dedicated Servers. So PC Gamers decided to reply in kind and not pay them money for it.

It's kinda like how Spore got the **** pirated out of it because of the DRM software it had on it made it a more sensible decision to pirate than put up with the DRM.

Combatting piracy has always been about not antagonizing your user base and providing a more comprehensive experience for legitimate users. Which is why Steam is an exceptionally popular bit of DRM hardly anyone recognizes as DRM (after all, it holds games for you! Makes playing them easy! Provides a social aspect! A store! It's very well designed DRM because it's very friendly, efficient and functional).

You defeat pirates by making pirates have the ****ty experience compared to the legit consumer. MW2 did the opposite - a pirate could get the game for free and in doing so had unshackled himself from IW-Net and now can play how the hell ever he likes on the hacked-in dedicated servers.

Modifié par Akiada, 04 février 2010 - 08:05 .

[boardnfool86]

Easy, Mass Effect was ported to PC, for an example of the obvious please see Dragon Age: Origins. The 360 version isn't nearly as good as the PC version, but Mass Effect is made to make the most of the 360, so people with top of the line PCs may feel it doesn't live up to the hype... but really ME2 is a great game and one of the best console games ever made

[bzombo]

Maviarab wrote...

Gonna dd my two pence in here...

Yes, more developers are catering to the 'casual gamer'...you know why?

Because the days of 'nerds' sat in a dark room is dwindling. Why? Becauee we are all well into our 30's and beyond with wives and kids lol.

The problem here, why the console market is currently leaving the PC market behind is thus: The majority of games out now, especially for the console are comprised of such titles that attract two types of gamer:

Women, and kids.

Don't agree? Hmmm...look at the last 500 games released accross all platforms (Wii, XBOX, PS3 & PC as the main ones) and tell me, exactly how many are actually aimed at a serious adult gamer?

I can tell you, and its not very many. ou see at the moment, the kids and bored housewives of the world make up a BIG market share.

Death of the PC though? Will never happen, it will always be king of the gaming platforms, because primarily, its where the technology comes from (and as noted by a previous poster, consoles are based on pc tech)...but do expect many many more 'simpler' games to hit the market.

Also because of that, expect many many more ports to consoles as again, the publishers know this is where their core money is (kids, women, casuals).

Now any 'kids, women etc' i referred to, please do not take offence. I know a few 'hardcore' female gamers, but in the main the majority are casual, and dont go in for 'shooters' and 'rpgs' hehe

i think you hit it dead on. my wife loves the wii. she plays the price is right, press your luck, and wii fit. not exactly hardcore games there, but she likes em well enough.

[bzombo]

Little Paw wrote...

I do not approve of pirating. I do not approve of being a ninja, or dressing up like a zombie and dancing with Michael Jackson.
That said, some good points Darklord_PT.

Overall, the casual gamer is killing the depth of PC games...that is the best argument I have heard so far.
I am sure Diablo III will come out and everyone will scream PC games are back. I know it is blasphemy, but I am not a Diablo fan. I found them quite boring.

i actually enjoy diablo for what it is, but i heard the original people that worked on 1 & 2 aren't working on 3. i don't follow blizzard, so i don't know. it's just what i heard. if true, it makes me wonder how it will be.

[bzombo]

Little Paw wrote...

The text games being picky about words is the point. That is the mechanism of challenge in a text based game.
What we absolutely agree on is that the console market is huge, casual gamers are the majority, thus lessening the need and marketability of games designed for or with the PC in mind.

That, or just give me my inventory back!!!
In the past gaming companies would "take advantage" of the PC keyboard and mouse...but now we are reduced to you saying edit them yourself.
That is an admission that PC is an afterthought now, thus proving the point of my original post.

i think bioware did a good job with this in dragon age. the pc version is more difficult, is more versatile, and much better looking than the "streamlined" console versions which pretty much have less of everything. less monsters, less quick slots, no top down view, etc. maybe what we need to do is see if what bioware did is something other companies will be willing to do. will they make a pc product that uses the pc's advantages and still make a console game that will be well  received?

[bzombo]

Little Paw wrote...

Wow, some really thoughtful posts...thanks guys. Fun to read!!!

As far as PC games, I know the hardcore gamers are waiting for Diablo III and Starcraft 2.
I am waiting for The Witcher II.
Of all the gaming companies I wish still existed, I miss Troika with The Vampire series.

i miss troika and black isle. man, i love temple of elemental evil, but it is so darn buggy. a problem that plagued all their games, and is probably a big reason troika's gone. the black isle-bioware tag team was responsible for the best group of games with the bg series, id series, pst......man that infinity engine changed things for a while. then 3d blew up and sprites were kicked to the curb.

Modifié par bzombo, 04 février 2010 - 10:22 .