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[ShadowLordXII]

Originally we were told that Arlathan fell due to conflict with the magisters of Tevinter and then Tevinter wiped out Arlathan and enslaved the elves as well as destroying their culture and sense of identity to better control them.

 

With new information from Inquisition, its stated that Arlathan's people destroyed themselves via civil war (apparently Fen-Harel's rebellion if Trespasser is considered) and Tevinter picked off what was left.

 

This seems to give off the implication that the elves brought their eventual slavery and their modern-day state upon themselves. But is the new revelation attempting to absolve Tevinter of enslaving elves by pinning Arlathan's destruction on the elves themselves.

 

Just seems odd to quietly blame the elves for their own fate when only a relative handful (top of the caste: Dreamers and elf pantheon) were actually doing any harm and they still received a lot of undeserved affliction from multiple parties afterwards.

 

 

[Qun00]

A nation's leaders do represent their society, so it isn't inaccurate to say that the elves caused their own undoing.

[In Exile]

We don't really know what Tevinter did or didn't do. Abellas is basically a racist, even moreso than Solas. That he wants to say the elves had their Empire fall prey to infighting doesn't necessarily mean Tevinter didn't do all of the things it is accused of doing - it might just mean that it did it to what was actually a smaller sliver of the original (leftover, post-Veil) empire. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Tevinter still enslaved the elves. How else could elves have exclusively ended up Tevinter slaves for 800 years?

[ShadowLordXII]

Tevinter still enslaved the elves. How else could elves have exclusively ended up Tevinter slaves for 800 years?

 

Exactly. Yet it seems that the lion's share of the blame is being shifted to the elves themselves.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Exactly. Yet it seems that the lion's share of the blame is being shifted to the elves themselves.

 

First, most of that blaming comes from fans who for whatever reason take a dim view of the elves. Second, Abelas claims that the elves destroyed themselves is only partial truth with early Tevinter still being responsible for crushing and enslaving a weakened Arlathan. If that didn't happen its possible that the elves might have managed to rebuild, even without their magic and immortality. 

 

So, yeah, ancient Tevinter doesn't get completely absolved. 

[ShadowLordXII]

First, most of that blaming comes from fans who for whatever reason take a dim view of the elves. Second, Abelas claims that the elves destroyed themselves is only partial truth with early Tevinter still being responsible for crushing and enslaving a weakened Arlathan. If that didn't happen its possible that the elves might have managed to rebuild, even without their magic and immortality. 

 

So, yeah, ancient Tevinter doesn't get completely absolved. 

 

Okay, that makes a bit more sense. Otherwise it would sound like it was part of a supposed back-tracking/backlash campaign that Inquisition (the game, not the order) had against the Dalish and the elves in general. (Not as venomous as some fans would make it out to be, but I do notice a few things that rose my eyebrow)

[Ghost Gal]

Originally we were told that Arlathan fell due to conflict with the magisters of Tevinter and then Tevinter wiped out Arlathan and enslaved the elves as well as destroying their culture and sense of identity to better control them.

 

With new information from Inquisition, its stated that Arlathan's people destroyed themselves via civil war (apparently Fen-Harel's rebellion if Trespasser is considered) and Tevinter picked off what was left.

 

This seems to give off the implication that the elves brought their eventual slavery and their modern-day state upon themselves. But is the new revelation attempting to absolve Tevinter of enslaving elves by pinning Arlathan's destruction on the elves themselves.

 

Just seems odd to quietly blame the elves for their own fate when only a relative handful (top of the caste: Dreamers and elf pantheon) were actually doing any harm and they still received a lot of undeserved affliction from multiple parties afterwards.

 

I agree, and I hope they don't go down that route.

 

What I find interesting is that ancient ruins (well, the one Tamlen and Mahariel found) and scraps of elven lore hint that the earliest human settlers and the already entrenched elven empire co-existed for a while, trading and intermarrying peacefully as neighbors. There doesn't seem to be any record that the elves attacked, enslaved, or tried to enslave humans, despite their superior lifespans, magic, knowledge of the continent, etc. Despite enslaving each other, they didn't molest their new human neighbors. But then, when the elves fell to internal strife and Fen'Harel's Veil, the humans wasted absolutely no time in taking advantage of the elves' new-found weakness and conquered the entire continent and enslaved the entire elven race for their own gain. It's like, "Jeez, you didn't even wait for that corpse to go cold before you looted it."

 

But, no one ever listens to me.

[straykat]

Absolved with Arlathan. Doesn't absolve what they did later to the elves. Or the hubris of their priests and old gods. Andraste and the Dalish might have hit back for the first, but not sure Tevinter really got the message on the latter.

[GoldenGail3]

Okay, that makes a bit more sense. Otherwise it would sound like it was part of a supposed back-tracking/backlash campaign that Inquisition had against the Dalish and the elves in general. (Not as venomous as some fans would make it out to be, but I do notice a few things that rose my eyebrow)

I image all of my Dalish Inqusitors would say otherwise. (Artemis Lavellen would more or less smart Alec-y say "Hmph, I'm Dalish and yet I'm the Inquistor!")

[Lady Artifice]

You're talking about big generalizations and relative perceptions as though you can find clear cut answers, a victim and a villain. Thedas is never so simple. 

[straykat]

Elves do deserve the blame for their old society. And the Dalish are effectively gone.. I think this may have been a last hurrah for them as a playable feature, before things move on. The whole future of elves is about forging a new path. Some will go Solas' route. Some will do something else. But their old stories need to be rewritten. Or they need to create new stories, to use an example from Velanna.

 

I don't think the Inquisition ever had anything against them. The last Inquisitor was Dalish already. Even if you don't play one now, that fact would get out. It's almost overkill actually if you did play one. Or if your HoF was one. That's one too many Dalish where the whole world revolves around. People would get tired of hearing it. lol j/k

[GoldenGail3]

Elves do deserve the blame for their old society. And the Dalish are effectively gone.. I think this may have been a last hurrah for them as a playable feature, before things move on. The whole future of elves is about forging a new path. Some will go Solas' route. Some will do something else. But their old stories need to be rewritten. Or they need to create new stories, to use an example from Velanna.
 
I don't think the Inquisition ever had anything against them. The last Inquisitor was Dalish already. Even if you don't play one now, that fact would get out. It's almost overkill actually if you did play one. Or if your HoF was one. That's one too many Dalish. People would get tired of hearing it. lol

My HOF for that save as my Cassandra romance would be a Prince Consort. Oh, yeah that's my Artemis Lavellen worldstate. I don't he'd be happy to hear the Dalish being torn down though. Though, he's an atheistic so i think he'll just fine.

[thats1evildude]

No. We've simply dismissed the myth that humanity was the sole reason that the ancient elves were destroyed.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Absolved with Arlathan. Doesn't absolve what they did later to the elves. Or the hubris of their priests and old gods. Andraste and the Dalish might have hit back for the first, but not sure Tevinter really got the message on the latter.

I'd say the Blight sent a pretty good message about not worshiping the Old Gods, considering that religion was forcibly banned in Tevinter, with only small cults still worshiping them. 

[Bad King]

I think that the idea that Tevinter were not involved in destroying elven civilisation is based on a lack of understanding of Abelas and the point he was making. When Dorian incredulously asks him to clarify on Tevinter's role in destroying the elves, he responds that the war was one of scavengers on carrion. He means that if the elves hadn't fragmented and warred with each other, Tevinter wouldn't have stood a chance.

 

But by what standards does Abelas define 'carrion'? To Solas, the current world is like a place full of tranquil mages. It's clear that ancient elven civilisation was on a whole other level to anything since. While Solas' creation of the veil and the civil wars that followed likely weakened the elves severely, it's still likely that considerable elven states still existed - but to ancient elves with incredibly high standards for judging a civilisation, these states were merely 'carrion' and the mighty Tevinter Empire merely scavengers. We know for a fact that Tevinter wiped out the last elven nations and that the elves were mass-enslaved by Tevinter.

 

So in short, no, they're not absolved - they were still responsible for mass murder, conquest and enslavement.

[Gervaise]

Actually the reveal in the Temple of Mythal solved a problem that had always bothered me.   If the ancient elves had such a powerful and amazing magical civilisation, how on earth did Tevinter manage to destroy it, even with enslaved dragons?     It never made sense to me.    However, falling upon the weakened remains makes perfect sense.     Basically it would seem that much of the fabric of the empire was destroyed, just as the library was.    Then in the confusion that followed, the survivors fought over what was left; may be the slaves rose up in revolt against the remaining nobles, after which they weren't in a fit state to defend themselves.

 

However, there are also probably two different histories remembered by the Dalish, that have somehow got merged into one.    First there was the raising of the Veil and becoming mortal which coincided with greater contact with humans.    The Dalish story says that as a result they withdrew from contact.     I think that following this several years passed, with the humans from Tevinter and elsewhere periodically coming across elven ruins and plundering what was there, probably killing any guardians that woke to stop them.   In Masked Empire Felassan says that the humans copied the runes they saw in the ruins "like children tracing letters".   Eventually they probably got some of the combinations right to reproduce some of the magic they had found and so Tevinter grew in power as a result.   They were further helped by demons speaking to them from the Fade; the ancient demons did know something of the magic the elves used, probably because they had a kinship to them.   

 

Then some time after the raising of the Veil, when Tevinter had grown in power, WoT2 says that it started to expand its borders eastwards.    That would be in the direction of Arlathan Forest.   The humans believed the forest was uninhabited but everyone who went in never returned.   Likely they had uncovered whatever was left of the central city of Arlathan, guarded by ancient elves, possibly with their descendants still living alongside.   Whatever the case, it was this that Tevinter attacked and destroyed, enslaving any survivors.     It was this that the elves themselves remembered.    As Dorian confirms, the Tevinter themselves liked to boast they had conquered the might of the elves and probably continued to mock their slaves down the years over their conquest, so that is why, thousands of years after (not simply hundreds) the slave descendants actually believed the humans were responsible for the destruction of the original Arlathan, not simply what remained of it.   

 

So whilst Tevinter can be considered absolved of the original destruction and mortality of the elves, since that was down to Fen'Harel, they are still guilty of attacking "the corpse" and enslaving whatever elves remained.       I think it is clear that they would never have stood a chance against the full might of the evanuris or even their followers prior to the raising of the Veil.  

[Illegitimus]

No.  Tevinter is not "absolved" because they took advantage of a moment in history when the elves had rendered themselves vulnerable.  Had the ancestors of the Vints not been there, the elves would have created a new civilization for themselves that would have retained much of the knowledge from the previous one.  I'd say if anything those revelations diminish the Tevinter achievement.  They did not in fact bring down the most powerful empire in recorded history.  Instead they were the barbarians who came swarming in to finish it off.  

[Sable Rhapsody]

No.  Tevinter is not "absolved" because they took advantage of a moment in history when the elves had rendered themselves vulnerable.  Had the ancestors of the Vints not been there, the elves would have created a new civilization for themselves that would have retained much of the knowledge from the previous one.  I'd say if anything those revelations diminish the Tevinter achievement.  They did not in fact bring down the most powerful empire in recorded history.  Instead they were the barbarians who came swarming in to finish it off.  

 

So...Tevinter played the Visigoths and the Vandals to Elvhenan's weakened Western Roman Empire.

[Ashagar]

More like the Medes to the Assyrian empire only it being done by the Romans instead of Iranians.

[Master Warder Z_]

No.  Tevinter is not "absolved" because they took advantage of a moment in history when the elves had rendered themselves vulnerable.  Had the ancestors of the Vints not been there, the elves would have created a new civilization for themselves that would have retained much of the knowledge from the previous one.  I'd say if anything those revelations diminish the Tevinter achievement.  They did not in fact bring down the most powerful empire in recorded history.  Instead they were the barbarians who came swarming in to finish it off.  

 

You act like the elves are people, its disturbing.

[Ashagar]

No.  Tevinter is not "absolved" because they took advantage of a moment in history when the elves had rendered themselves vulnerable.  Had the ancestors of the Vints not been there, the elves would have created a new civilization for themselves that would have retained much of the knowledge from the previous one.  I'd say if anything those revelations diminish the Tevinter achievement.  They did not in fact bring down the most powerful empire in recorded history.  Instead they were the barbarians who came swarming in to finish it off.  

 

Honestly I don't think I could have blamed the various mortal races if they had come in and wiped out the elven empire after Solas created the vale and broke the empire... especially given the apparent lore about the mortal tribes being hunted for sport.

[Bad King]

Honestly I don't think I could have blamed the various mortal races if they had come in and wiped out the elven empire after Solas created the vale and broke the empire... especially given the apparent lore about the mortal tribes being hunted for sport.

 

I thought that was just Andruil who went batshit due to corruption (possibly the taint or red lyrium of some kind) from the Forgotten Ones. The other gods had to bring her in line.

 

Regardless, the Tevinter Imperium only appears to have made contact with the elves later when they were colonising the Arlathan forest and they invaded due to some of their frontier settlements vanishing rather than out of vengeance for a long-vanished god. Plus, Tevinter's merciless colonisation of various human tribes suggests that they didn't hold members of their own species in high regard if they weren't part of their own empire.

[Ashagar]

The god of death was another god who got off of killing things as well though from what I can gather when ever the gods were bringing one of their number back in line it was usually for killing large numbers of elves not anyone else because that cut down on their own followers if too many were killed at once.

 

From what I can gather Andruil hunting mortal tribes for sport wasn't a issue, it was only when she started killing elves that it became a issue.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

According to the legend in the Temple of Mythal it was only when "the other gods feared she would hunt them in turn" that Mythal did anything about it. I actually had figured the the "mortal men" she hunted before actually were elves.