84 réponses à ce sujet

[Bad King]

According to the legend in the Temple of Mythal it was only when "the other gods feared she would hunt them in turn" that Mythal did anything about it. I actually had figured the the "mortal men" she hunted before actually were elves.

 

Yeah it's certainly possible and probably more likely that it's referring to elves who were indeed mortal (though very long lived), whereas the elven gods in contrast appear to be nigh immortal (Solas had to resort to trapping them in the fade rather than killing them and an aspect of Mythal continued to exist long after she was thought to have died).

[Ashagar]

I doubt it was elven mortals, pointedly both elven lore and Solas himself stated the elves were immortal or at least of the type that did not grow old and die before the veil cut them off from the fade. No I fully believe the humans, the dwarves and the Kossith existed before the veil and didn't simply magically pop into existence with entire cultures created out of thin air instantaneously and it was those who were hunted.

[Bad King]

I doubt it was elven mortals, pointedly both elven lore and Solas himself stated the elves were immortal or at least of the type that did not grow old and die before the veil cut them off from the fade. No I fully believe the humans, the dwarves and the Kossith existed before the veil and didn't simply magically pop into existence with entire cultures created out of thin air instantaneously and it was those who were hunted.

 

Even if we do accept that it was humans who were hunted, you still have the problem of arguing why you think Tevinter 'shouldn't be blamed' for destroying a civilisation 1700 years after the 'quickening' (and thus Andruil's disappearance). The timeline actually suggests that the Tevinters had no idea about the elves when they first contacted them in the Arlathan forest, it wasn't like they thought "Rarr, lets enslave this entire race for what one of their gods did to some human tribes nearly two millennia ago!" 

[ComedicSociopathy]

Even if we do accept that it was humans who were hunted, you still have the problem of arguing why you think Tevinter 'shouldn't be blamed' for destroying a civilisation 1700 years after the 'quickening' (and thus Andruil's disappearance). The timeline actually suggests that the Tevinters had no idea about the elves when they first contacted them in the Arlathan forest, it wasn't like they thought "Rarr, lets enslave this entire race for what one of their gods did to some human tribes nearly two millennia ago!" 

 

Lets call as it is. Tevinter enslaved the elves because of simple expansionism and for the need of a cheap workforce. That said, I'd wager that the elves in the Arlathan forest likely killed all or most explorers or settlers that entered their territory. Sort of like how the Sentinel Elves likely killed anyone, even Dalish, that found their temple. That still doesn't justify mass enslavement though. 

[Ashagar]

I think some of it to the fact of ancient Tevinter being a fantasy counterpart to Ancient Rome, even in modern Tevinter there are heavy tones of ancient rome in Tevinter society and culture from what we have seen so far. Once they decided to go to war with the elves they mostly likely set out to utterly crush them and make sure they would never be a threat again by enslaving the survivors and destroying their settlements and culture. It was likely what they would have done to the remaining human tribes of the south if they hadn't been struck and ravaged by the first blight.

[ComedicSociopathy]

I think some of it to the fact of ancient Tevinter being a fantasy counterpart to Ancient Rome, even in modern Tevinter there are heavy tones of ancient rome in Tevinter society and culture from what we have seen so far. Once they decided to go to war with the elves they mostly likely set out to utterly crush them and make sure they would never be a threat again by enslaving the survivors and destroying their settlements and culture. It was likely what they would have done to the remaining human tribes of the south if they hadn't been struck and ravaged by the first blight.

 

Guess the darkspawn are useful for something. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Guess the darkspawn are useful for something.

*snorts* Andraste finished the job.

[ComedicSociopathy]

*snorts* Andraste finished the job.

 

And Shartan too. 

[Ashagar]

Guess the darkspawn are useful for something. 

 

The ironic thing is I suspect it was quite possible that the Teivnter might have peacefully dealt with the elves like they did with the dwarves if they hadn't withdrew and refused all contact but once Tevinter decided to go to war that was it for the elves.

[Master Warder Z_]

And Shartan too.

Yeah he was there too.

[ComedicSociopathy]

The ironic thing is I suspect it was quite possible that the Teivnter might have peacefully dealt with the elves like they did with the dwarves if they hadn't withdrew and refused all contact but once Tevinter decided to go to war that was it for the elves.

 

Maybe. I've always figured that Tevinter never conquered the dwarves because they didn't want to have to rule over a place that was completely underground. Arlathan forest was much better real estate. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Maybe. I've always figured that Tevinter never conquered the dwarves because they didn't want to have to rule over a place that was completely underground. Arlathan forest was much better real estate.

But its a broken crater if that bit of lore is true.

[Ashagar]

Maybe. I've always figured that Tevinter never conquered the dwarves because they didn't want to have to rule over a place that was completely underground. Arlathan forest was much better real estate. 

 

From what I understand the dwaves were and are truly highly respected by both the modern and ancient Tevinter not just for their mining and smithing skills but their knowledge and engineering skills. I suspect the Tevinter originally wanted to learn from and trade with the elves just as they had with the dwarves and really didn't take well to the rejection and took a rather predictably roman method of dealing with said rejection.

[Master Warder Z_]

Elves were and always will be a bunch of isolationist pricks

[nightscrawl]

First, most of that blaming comes from fans who for whatever reason take a dim view of the elves. Second, Abelas claims that the elves destroyed themselves is only partial truth with early Tevinter still being responsible for crushing and enslaving a weakened Arlathan. If that didn't happen its possible that the elves might have managed to rebuild, even without their magic and immortality. 

 

So, yeah, ancient Tevinter doesn't get completely absolved. 

 

Yes, exactly. The reason that Dorian is pleased with the information, even as he is shocked by it, is because Tevinter believes that their mighty power brought Arlathan low and they have the type of pride that comes from having been the one to crush out a civilization. Tevinter is now less powerful, largely due to the unceasing Qunari conflict, than it used to be, so some of its citizens hold onto that incorrect knowledge and think with pride how great they once were. And thus comes the desire from groups like the Venatori, and Corypheus who exploited them, to go back to that power.

 

In the post-Mythal dialogue, Dorian says that the knowledge "would reduce us to scavengers, destroy our legacy no matter how terrible. But we should accept it, take our history down a peg, confront the legacy hanging over us like a shroud." Even Dorian, the patriot, is not so jingoistic as to think that Tevinter is now absolved of all of the terrible things it has done throughout history.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I doubt it was elven mortals, pointedly both elven lore and Solas himself stated the elves were immortal or at least of the type that did not grow old and die before the veil cut them off from the fade. No I fully believe the humans, the dwarves and the Kossith existed before the veil and didn't simply magically pop into existence with entire cultures created out of thin air instantaneously and it was those who were hunted.

 

That depends on which definition of "immortal" you are using. Yes, elves did not age but they could still die from things. The stories of the Dread Wolf in his sanctuary in Trespasser describe him as "mortal" as a contrast with the belief that he and the Evanuris were gods.

 

I also thought it was weird that an ancient elven temple would refer to humans as "men" rather than "shemlen" if it was supposed to be humans.

[Illyria]

First, most of that blaming comes from fans who for whatever reason take a dim view of the elves. Second, Abelas claims that the elves destroyed themselves is only partial truth with early Tevinter still being responsible for crushing and enslaving a weakened Arlathan. If that didn't happen its possible that the elves might have managed to rebuild, even without their magic and immortality. 

 

So, yeah, ancient Tevinter doesn't get completely absolved. 

 

Agreed.  I haven't seen anyone in game blaming elves for their enslavement and I seriously hope BW don't go down that route (but I have faith that the writers are better than this).  Pretty much all the 'lol, it's the elves' fault' is a fandom thing, same with the Red Crossing stuff (yes, the elves started the fight but the circumstances leading up to it were years of racial tension and Orlais responded by trying to do an exalted march and wipe out elven culture, as well as attempting to erase any mention of Shartan and the part the elves played in Andraste's rebellion.)

 

The elves may have destroyed themselves in a civil war but Tevinter still went 'yay! free labour' instead 'how can we help these people?'
 

[Illyria]

I agree, and I hope they don't go down that route.

 

What I find interesting is that ancient ruins (well, the one Tamlen and Mahariel found) and scraps of elven lore hint that the earliest human settlers and the already entrenched elven empire co-existed for a while, trading and intermarrying peacefully as neighbors. There doesn't seem to be any record that the elves attacked, enslaved, or tried to enslave humans, despite their superior lifespans, magic, knowledge of the continent, etc. Despite enslaving each other, they didn't molest their new human neighbors. But then, when the elves fell to internal strife and Fen'Harel's Veil, the humans wasted absolutely no time in taking advantage of the elves' new-found weakness and conquered the entire continent and enslaved the entire elven race for their own gain. It's like, "Jeez, you didn't even wait for that corpse to go cold before you looted it."

 

But, no one ever listens to me.

 

That makes a lot of sense.  Elven lore states that elves did trade peacefully with humans until they realised that humans were robbing them of their immortality and that fits with what we now know of elven history.  Elves and humans traded peacefully then Solas raised the veil and the 'gods' vanished and elves lost their immortality.  They closed themselves off from their new neighbours and entered into a civil war.  Their human neighbours were either killed by the veil suddenly going up or got the hell out when the fighting started and then after it was all over Tevinter swept in and enslaved the survivors.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I figured the old stories of elves trading with humans and dwarves is supposed to be probably all part of the things the Dalish got wrong given the nature of the Elvhenan. Then again, the early relations of humans and elves is still unclear because WoT 1 and 2 directly contradict eachother.

 

Volume 1 says the neromenian tribe fought early battles against elves and Volume 2 says the Tevinter Imperium was unaware of the existence of elves until they started murdering all their settlers and emissaries. 

[Ashagar]

Hmm if volume two two was right that would have been enough for a fantasy Rome counterpart like Tevinter to declare war and not stop until the elves were utterly crushed and no longer a threat, if it volume one was correct that likely would have also been motivation for the Tevinter Imperium given their RL counterparts held grudges a very long time like they did against the Gauls and didn't tolerate any group that once fought them to ever be a threat again which was one of the reasons Carthage was utterly destroyed in the third Punic wars and the land it formally sat on formally cursed by the roman priests.

[nightscrawl]

I figured the old stories of elves trading with humans and dwarves is supposed to be probably all part of the things the Dalish got wrong given the nature of the Elvhenan. Then again, the early relations of humans and elves is still unclear because WoT 1 and 2 directly contradict eachother.

 

Volume 1 says the neromenian tribe fought early battles against elves and Volume 2 says the Tevinter Imperium was unaware of the existence of elves until they started murdering all their settlers and emissaries. 

 

I think I have a minor brain aneurysm every time I read about inconsistencies in the lore books. So frustrating. >.<

[Illyria]

I think I have a minor brain aneurysm every time I read about inconsistencies in the lore books. So frustrating. >.<

 

Everything in the WOT books are written from an in-universe POV.  There's no real inconsistencies, just different viewpoints and evolving arguments as new information comes to light.

[Bad King]

From what I understand the dwaves were and are truly highly respected by both the modern and ancient Tevinter not just for their mining and smithing skills but their knowledge and engineering skills. I suspect the Tevinter originally wanted to learn from and trade with the elves just as they had with the dwarves and really didn't take well to the rejection and took a rather predictably roman method of dealing with said rejection.

 

The dwarven Empire was enormous, subterranean and extremely powerful - it would not have been in Tevinter's interest to try and attack it - there's no way they could have won. Meanwhile the elves were a lot weaker due to their debilitating civil wars. Tevinter saw an opportunity to make a profit and strengthen their Empire and they took it, in the same way that they also conquered the human tribes of Thedas. Whatever reasons they claimed to have for invading the elves, their primary aim (as ComedicSociopathy noted) was almost certainly to gain power and wealth. 

[nightscrawl]

Everything in the WOT books are written from an in-universe POV.  There's no real inconsistencies, just different viewpoints and evolving arguments as new information comes to light.

 

I do realize that, but I reject that argument as it relates to most of the lore presented in those books. Not ALL of it is presented as physical codex entries written by some fictional person. Some of it is written as encyclopedic-style text that is supposed to contain factual information.

 

And really, what is the damn point of a lore book that is supposed to be a font of information if one can just use the "unreliable narrator" excuse to invalidate any of it, just like people do with the events of DA2? Frankly, I am continually baffled at why some people seem to happily accept that everything they read in these books is potentially inaccurate because the of manner in which it was written, which was a style decision on the part of its authors.

 

Some of it has to be true, and some of it has to be wrong or inconsistent, either with information presented in other materials, or the games themselves -- the primary source. They have even admitted mistakes themselves when they released the erratum for WoT Vol. 1 (re-published in Vol. 2). It's rather cute that they wrote this as having been written by Brother Genitivi, but it was still written by some Bioware person as a means of correcting errors found in the actual published book.

 

I bought the damn things, and will continue to buy them as they are released. Mistakes happen. I get that. But I'm not going to give Bioware a pass on all errors simply because some of them can be excused away by the style they chose to use.

[Illyria]

I do realize that, but I reject that argument as it relates to most of the lore presented in those books. Not ALL of it is presented as physical codex entries written by some fictional person. Some of it is written as encyclopedic-style text that is supposed to contain factual information.

 

And really, what is the damn point of a lore book that is supposed to be a font of information if one can just use the "unreliable narrator" excuse to invalidate any of it, just like people do with the events of DA2? Frankly, I am continually baffled at why some people seem to happily accept that everything they read in these books is potentially inaccurate because the of manner in which it was written, which was a style decision on the part of its authors.

 

Some of it has to be true, and some of it has to be wrong or inconsistent, either with information presented in other materials, or the games themselves -- the primary source. They have even admitted mistakes themselves when they released the erratum for WoT Vol. 1 (re-published in Vol. 2). It's rather cute that they wrote this as having been written by Brother Genitivi, but it was still written by some Bioware person as a means of correcting errors found in the actual published book.

 

I bought the damn things, and will continue to buy them as they are released. Mistakes happen. I get that. But I'm not going to give Bioware a pass on all errors simply because some of them can be excused away by the style they chose to use.

 

The encycolpedia style bits are also meant to be seen as in universe texts.  The mistakes that BW issued a correction on where when they'd made errors with dates or canon facts.  Everything in both WOT books should as accuratly as something you'd read in a history book (i.e: dates will be correct and the general history will be correct but a lot is left up to interpretation and personal bias.  Look at Cullen and Anders' sections in WOT2 as good examples of this), not as a 100% accurate history of Thedas as told by game devs.  As a historian and a student of English literature this is something I love about the books.