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[midnight tea]

That makes a lot of sense.  Elven lore states that elves did trade peacefully with humans until they realised that humans were robbing them of their immortality and that fits with what we now know of elven history.  Elves and humans traded peacefully then Solas raised the veil and the 'gods' vanished and elves lost their immortality.  They closed themselves off from their new neighbours and entered into a civil war.  Their human neighbours were either killed by the veil suddenly going up or got the hell out when the fighting started and then after it was all over Tevinter swept in and enslaved the survivors.

 

Well.. we also have strange ruins in Brecilian forest - apparently Tevinter, but filled to the brim with elvhen statues of Creators, full of elvhen rituals, memories of an arcane arrior that remembers humans and elves living together and being attacked by some terrible presence, and even what seems to be a human child and his human mother spirit, speaking in elvhen language and left in the chamber after her body rotted away while she was apparently in Utherena.

 

Even more odd that the Dalish claim that Brecillian forest was where the ruins of civilization predating the rise of Elvenhan, so...

[ComedicSociopathy]

Well.. we also have strange ruins in Brecillian forest - apparently Tevinter, but filled to the brim with elvhen statues of Creators, full of elvhen rituals, memories of an arcane arrior that remembers humans and elves living together and being attacked by some terrible presence, and even what seems to be a human child and his human mother spirit, speaking in elvhen language and left in the chamber after her body rotted away while she was apparently in Utherena.

 

Even more odd that the Dalish claim that Brecillian forest was where the ruins of civilization predating the rise of Elvenhan, so...

 

Yes, well, eluvians used to be seen as ancient Tevinter artifacts, so I'd imagine that a lot of the lore has changed since Origins. 

[nightscrawl]

The encycolpedia style bits are also meant to be seen as in universe texts.  The mistakes that BW issued a correction on where when they'd made errors with dates or canon facts.  Everything in both WOT books should as accuratly as something you'd read in a history book (i.e: dates will be correct and the general history will be correct but a lot is left up to interpretation and personal bias.  Look at Cullen and Anders' sections in WOT2 as good examples of this), not as a 100% accurate history of Thedas as told by game devs.  As a historian and a student of English literature this is something I love about the books.

 

I would be fine with it, particularly since Bioware does flavor and humor quite well, if people didn't feel the necessity to use something that was a stylistic choice and present it as proof of whatever argument they're trying to make. This is why I referenced DA2. I have seen the excuse that Varric was DA2's unreliable narrator as an excuse for many things over the years and it's extremely annoying. So really, it's the fans and not Bioware that I have an issue with. But I am apparently one of the few people this bothers, so I will drop the issue and just seethe privately.

[midnight tea]

Yes, well, eluvians used to be seen as ancient Tevinter artifacts, so I'd imagine that a lot of the lore has changed since Origins. 

 

The lore didn't seem to change, we simply have more information now. It was assumed that the eluvian was a Tevinter artifact used for communication in DAO according to Duncan, but the fact is quickly contested even in Mahariel's origin story, since a bunch of genlocks appear in ruins only after they encounter and open the mirror - they had to come through it. What's more, both genlocks and what Tamlen says says during its opening suggests that the eluvian connects to what seems to be a mirror somewhere in the Deep Roads - and we do know through Trespasser that there indeed were eluvians in the Deep Roads.

 

... So it may as be that people just assume that the architecture is Tevinter as well (no wonder, Tevinter based a lot on elvhen culture, so there are similarities), while it's in fact mostly elvhen. Of course, between DAO and DAI all cultures got either a visual upgrade or considerable remodeling or more distinct style when it comes to visual identity, sooo... it's bizzarely hard to determine which part is elvhen and which one is Tevinter, of if there's any Tevinter stuff there at all (apart from stuff that likely came later).

 

The elvhen architecture is still most "gothic" of them all, and we see a lot of gothic elements in Brecilian Ruins (as well as similar ruins described as elvhen rather than Tevinter), though that's not saying much...

[Ashagar]

The dwarven Empire was enormous, subterranean and extremely powerful - it would not have been in Tevinter's interest to try and attack it - there's no way they could have won. Meanwhile the elves were a lot weaker due to their debilitating civil wars. Tevinter saw an opportunity to make a profit and strengthen their Empire and they took it, in the same way that they also conquered the human tribes of Thedas. Whatever reasons they claimed to have for invading the elves, their primary aim (as ComedicSociopathy noted) was almost certainly to gain power and wealth. 

 

Oh I have no doubt doubt power and wealth that were motivators but to think that was the primary or only reason would be to reduce the tevinter to cardboard cut out people. Power and wealth were motivators for the Romans as well but it wasn't the only reason they went to war and the Ancient Tevinter are most certainly the local counterparts to the Romans both culturally, militarily and socially.

 

Even if the elves had no wealth and knowelege or just as powerful as the Tevinter Imperium the Tevinter would have likely still gone to war and fought until either they or the elven state was destroyed even if it took several wars to do so.

[Bad King]

Oh I have no doubt doubt power and wealth that were motivators but to think that was the primary or only reason would be to reduce the tevinter to cardboard cut out people. Power and wealth were motivators for the Romans as well but it wasn't the only reason they went to war and the Ancient Tevinter are most certainly the local counterparts to the Romans both culturally, militarily and socially.

 

Even if the elves had no wealth and knowelege or just as powerful as the Tevinter Imperium the Tevinter would have likely still gone to war and fought until either they or the elven state was destroyed even if it took several wars to do so.

 

The Roman example that you give however is very different to the case we have here. Rome and Carthage had long been political, economic and military rivals who had fought frequent wars against each other, both vying for control over the Meditteranean. In this case we have isolationist elven polities that refused any form of external contact and an Empire next door with an ambitious elite looking to gain power and prestige - one side was inward looking and conservative, the other expansionist and imperialistic. If the WoT book is to be believed, then it appears that Tevinter wasn't facing any short or long term existential threat from the elves - rather, the event that triggered the war was the disappearance of Tevinter colonies on their frontier (though it's not exactly clear whether the elves truly were responsible for this) and thus the hampering of their empire's expansion. Looking at Tevinter's long history of conquest, exploitation and enslavement, it's difficult to envisage anything other than a lust for wealth, control and power as the primary reason for its expansionism. The Tevinter elite were part of a culture in which competitiveness and power struggles were the norm and in which excessive power was both desirable and necessary to exist and survive as a political leader.

[Ashagar]

Roman wasn't facing existential threat from most of its enemies including Carthage especially in the first and third wars where catharge had been romans trading partner with good relations with rome previously or in the third Carthage so broken it was no real threat. The Romans however treated even the most minor of wars as nothing less than all or nothing affairs which should end with the other side never being a threat again or Rome's destruction and if a war did end and it was either inclusive or the other state later got into conflict again the Romans would set out to utterly destroy them if possible.

 

A state like Rome or Tevinter would never tolerate the destruction of their colonies and would seek to utterly crush those they decided were responsible.

[Master Warder Z_]

I would be fine with it, particularly since Bioware does flavor and humor quite well, if people didn't feel the necessity to use something that was a stylistic choice and present it as proof of whatever argument they're trying to make. This is why I referenced DA2. I have seen the excuse that Varric was DA2's unreliable narrator as an excuse for many things over the years and it's extremely annoying. So really, it's the fans and not Bioware that I have an issue with. But I am apparently one of the few people this bothers, so I will drop the issue and just seethe privately.

Jumping. In. Full. Plate. Armor.

[In Exile]

No. Tevinter is not "absolved" because they took advantage of a moment in history when the elves had rendered themselves vulnerable. Had the ancestors of the Vints not been there, the elves would have created a new civilization for themselves that would have retained much of the knowledge from the previous one. I'd say if anything those revelations diminish the Tevinter achievement. They did not in fact bring down the most powerful empire in recorded history. Instead they were the barbarians who came swarming in to finish it off.

Strictly speaking the elves were still the most powerful empire in history - just now in the post Veil history.

[In Exile]

Yes, well, eluvians used to be seen as ancient Tevinter artifacts, so I'd imagine that a lot of the lore has changed since Origins.

What has changed rather is how ignorant the Dalish are portrayed as being re: their own lore.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Everything in the WOT books are written from an in-universe POV.  There's no real inconsistencies, just different viewpoints and evolving arguments as new information comes to light.

 

The problem here is that Volume 1 is in universe but is supposed to be an unbiased encyclopedia, but was also written pre-DAI. Volume 2 doesn't say what it's main text is, but reading certain parts make it clear that it is not similarly impartial. So when it describes the Fall of Arlathan in a way that seems inconsistent from what we know from Volume 1, it's unclear if the account is meant to be biased Tevinter propaganda, a retcon, a mistake, or new information.

[Illegitimus]

Strictly speaking the elves were still the most powerful empire in history - just now in the post Veil history.

 

No, in post-Veil history the most powerful Empire is Tevinter.  Note that the decline of Tevinter also started with a similarly opportunistic attack that took advantage of a period in which the empire had been weakened by a series of catastrophes

 

What has changed rather is how ignorant the Dalish are portrayed as being re: their own lore.

 

I wouldn't say so.  The storytellers of the tribes were clearly unreliable narrators with an axe to grind.  

[Vit246]

What has changed rather is how ignorant the Dalish are portrayed as being re: their own lore.

That hasn't really changed. The dalish know that they don't know everything. Thats why they go around looking for ancient ruins and relics so they can be less ignorant. If they do act like a know-it-all, well thats just a defense mechanism called culturing posturing so they don't look weak in front of others. Everybody does it.

[kimgoold]

I agree, and I hope they don't go down that route.

 

What I find interesting is that ancient ruins (well, the one Tamlen and Mahariel found) and scraps of elven lore hint that the earliest human settlers and the already entrenched elven empire co-existed for a while, trading and intermarrying peacefully as neighbors. There doesn't seem to be any record that the elves attacked, enslaved, or tried to enslave humans, despite their superior lifespans, magic, knowledge of the continent, etc. Despite enslaving each other, they didn't molest their new human neighbors. But then, when the elves fell to internal strife and Fen'Harel's Veil, the humans wasted absolutely no time in taking advantage of the elves' new-found weakness and conquered the entire continent and enslaved the entire elven race for their own gain. It's like, "Jeez, you didn't even wait for that corpse to go cold before you looted it."

 

But, no one ever listens to me.

I want to like this 1,000,000 times

[Master Warder Z_]

I agree, and I hope they don't go down that route.

What I find interesting is that ancient ruins (well, the one Tamlen and Mahariel found) and scraps of elven lore hint that the earliest human settlers and the already entrenched elven empire co-existed for a while, trading and intermarrying peacefully as neighbors. There doesn't seem to be any record that the elves attacked, enslaved, or tried to enslave humans, despite their superior lifespans, magic, knowledge of the continent, etc. Despite enslaving each other, they didn't molest their new human neighbors. But then, when the elves fell to internal strife and Fen'Harel's Veil, the humans wasted absolutely no time in taking advantage of the elves' new-found weakness and conquered the entire continent and enslaved the entire elven race for their own gain. It's like, "Jeez, you didn't even wait for that corpse to go cold before you looted it."

But, no one ever listens to me.

The nature of that relationship is subjective, its not implied to be fair, good or antagonistic. It's just that the Fereldan humans that were present had communities there. It's unknown if they were slaves, laborers or in a state of war even.

All knowledge comes from a possessed rhyming tree and a insane gem spirit. Both of which are purposefully vague.

So yeah, conjecture is pretty but not much else.

[Illyria]

What has changed rather is how ignorant the Dalish are portrayed as being re: their own lore.

 

For a nomadic people who have gone through at least three attempts to eradicate their history and culture they're amazingly well informed.  They know the names of their gods and what they stood for, the know that vallaslin honoured their gods, they know the story of Solas' rebellion, they've kept their language alive to the extent they can understand and communicate with ancient elven sentinels.  Yeah, they're missing the details but, to quote the Inquisitor, 'that's what happens when stories become legends'.  In fact, along with the theme of atonement and forgiveness, I'd argue that this is one of Inquisition's biggest themes (and of the series overall).  We saw it with Hawke, Cassandra and Solas, and got to play through it as the Inquisitor.
 

[Gervaise]

Actually the Dalish seem far less ignorant about their lore than the average human peasant is about the true history of Andraste.   The Chantry scholars know the truth but they chose not to pass it on, because it is in the Chantry's interests to maintain the myth of Andraste over the historical figure.   The elves have had to maintain their racial memory for over three times the amount of time that has passed since the time of Andraste, so it is actually impressive how much actually does match what actually happened.

 

The interesting thing about the elves is that there would have been two main factions after the raising of the Veil; those who were loyal to the evanuris and therefore saw Fen'Harel as a traitor who tricked their gods into leaving them and those who were loyal to Fen'Harel who saw him as a hero who rescued them from tyrants.    On the whole it would seem that is was the followers of the evanuris who passed down their version of events, which is why the evanuris are depicted as benevolent teachers and protectors.     May be Fen'Harel's followers found it expedient to go into hiding because of the feelings directed against him when it became apparent the full consequences of his actions, which is why tale of a trickster warrior who fought against tyrants became simply an old folk tale, that eventually became linked to Shartan, instead of being associated with Fen'Harel.     There were also two versions of why their gods no longer came to their aid.    The first was the true one concerning the fact that they couldn't because Fen'Harel had imprisoned them.   The second seems to come from Fen'Harel himself.    It states that when the People remember what it is to be truly elves, their gods will return to them.   When Fen'Harel drops the Veil, the elves will be what they once were and the evanuris will return.  The Dalish interpreted this belief as them having the responsibility of restoring their awareness of what it is to be elven by recovering their past by delving into ruins, whereas ironically Fen'Harel mocks their efforts because it will be impossible to recover their sense of what they were with the Veil in place.

 

None of the elves probably made the connection between Fen'Harel's action and their loss of their immortality, so instead connected it with increased contact with humans, who became bolder as a result of the reduction in power of the elves.   Then as Tevinter grew in power and finally subjugated the descendants of the original survivors, the elves became convinced the humans were the villains of everything they suffered.    After all the Tevinter did destroy what was left of Arlathan, even if it was only a shadow of what it was at the height of its power.   

[In Exile]

No, in post-Veil history the most powerful Empire is Tevinter. Note that the decline of Tevinter also started with a similarly opportunistic attack that took advantage of a period in which the empire had been weakened by a series of catastrophes

We don't know what the relative state of the Elvhen was at Edit: the time.

For a nomadic people who have gone through at least three attempts to eradicate their history and culture they're amazingly well informed. They know the names of their gods and what they stood for, the know that vallaslin honoured their gods, they know the story of Solas' rebellion, they've kept their language alive to the extent they can understand and communicate with ancient elven sentinels. Yeah, they're missing the details but, to quote the Inquisitor, 'that's what happens when stories become legends'. In fact, along with the theme of atonement and forgiveness, I'd argue that this is one of Inquisition's biggest themes (and of the series overall). We saw it with Hawke, Cassandra and Solas, and got to play through it as the Inquisitor.

I think people are misunderstanding - and I'm not per se singling you out, it just so happens that your post is the most expansive on the subject - but my point wasn't that the Dalish are ignorant, rather that between DA:O and DA2 (and inclusive of Witch Hunt) Bioware decided the Dalish knew more of their own lore. See e.g. Marethari in DA:O vs. DA2 on Eluvians.

[Illyria]

We don't know what the relative state of the Elvhen was at 

 

 

I think people are misunderstanding - and I'm not per se singling you out, it just so happens that your post is the most expansive on the subject - but my point wasn't that the Dalish are ignorant, rather that between DA:O and DA2 (and inclusive of Witch Hunt) Bioware decided the Dalish knew more of their own lore. See e.g. Marethari in DA:O vs. DA2 on Eluvians. 

 

Oh, now I understand what you were saying.  Yeah, I agree that there's been a change in how much elves know about their history and lore.  The change seemed to happen with Witch Hunt (which is also were Eluvians start getting referred to as elven artifacts.  I still have no idea if that's a retcon or if Duncan didn't know what he was talking about).

[Gervaise]

Actually there is an easy way to account for why knowledge about something like the eluvians could have changed between DAO and DA2/DAI and that is the Arlathavlen that takes place every 10 years or so.    Additionally, Marethari's knowledge could have changed because between the clan finding the mirror in Origins and the clan leaving for the Freemarches, Flemeth could have dropped in on them, to remind Marethari that she owed her a favour and at the same time enlightened them about the eluvian.

 

I also have a theory that Felassan may have been behind the Dalish suddenly discovering more about eluvians.    Solas maintains that Felassan's task was to recover the eluvian network from Briala but he had been active in Thedas for at least 20 years prior to the events in Masked Empire.   He appeared to have had a lot of dealings with that particular Keeper who was trying to gain access to the eluvian network and you have to wonder why the Keeper had never attempted anything like that before if he knew where the entrance was located and what it was for.     However, if he only knew about it because Felassan had guided him in that direction and only summoned the demon because Felassan had suggested a spirit might be helpful in finding out how to unlock it, then it would explain why everything fell so neatly into place.    Solas/Fen'Harel seems to favour using stooges to do his dirty work for him and Felassan seems no different.   Having manipulated the Keeper into doing what he wanted, the Keeper had baulked at the requirement to allow someone to be possessed by the demon as the price of its aid.   We have no idea how long the demon had been trapped there but if Felassan was behind it, then events allowed him the opportunity to use Briala and her party instead of the Dalish to achieve his aims.   However, Felassan made the mistake (in Fen'Harel's mind) of actually seeing Briala as People, so instead of letting her tell him the password, which is all that he needed to take them back from her, he stopped her from telling him and thus doomed himself.    

[nightscrawl]

Actually there is an easy way to account for why knowledge about something like the eluvians could have changed between DAO and DA2/DAI and that is the Arlathavlen that takes place every 10 years or so.    Additionally, Marethari's knowledge could have changed because between the clan finding the mirror in Origins and the clan leaving for the Freemarches, Flemeth could have dropped in on them, to remind Marethari that she owed her a favour and at the same time enlightened them about the eluvian.

 
There is a banter in MotA between Fenris and Merrill that talks of an upcoming Arlathvhen. Since we know DAO takes place over a year, and that the start of DA2 overlaps with DAO, their conversation would seem to indicate that the meeting happens without the bounds for that knowledge to affect DA2 in the way that it does.
 
And of course, since you can play MotA at any point during DA2, who knows when it might actually occur. Even at the very earliest, during Act 1, Merril's clan wouldn't be going anyway since they lost their halaa and can't travel.
 
Fenris: I hear there is going to be an Arlathvhen soon in Halamshiral. A large one.
Merrill: A gathering of the clans? How do I not know about that?
Fenris: Possibly because some elves are still willing to talk to me.
Merrill: You've been waiting to say that, haven't you?
Fenris: Maybe a little.

[Master Warder Z_]

I missed Fenris harping on the witch admittedly

[Gervaise]

I must admit I find that conversation by Fenris not to be entirely credible because I very much doubt any of the Dalish, even clan Sabrae who are familiar with Fenris, would be discussing an imminent gathering of the clans with an outsider.    On the contrary it would be a matter of great secrecy since the clans coming together in one place would be placing the entire Dalish community at risk.   Plus it would not be held in Halamshiral since that is now a human held city, nor would it occur anywhere near it for the same reason, so Fenris is clearly trolling her and Merrill should have picked him up on that.

 

Still my main point was that clans do exchange information and those occupying roughly the same area may encounter one another in between Arlathavlens.    My Inquisitor Lavellan is intending going to the next one, and even if the Inquisitor is not an elf I would expect at least some of the information the Inquisitor learned to find its way back to the clans.  

 

Strangely enough it would seem that Duncan was nearly right in what he said.   According to Witch Hunt and Finn, the Tevinter did take a lot of eluvians into their possession after the fall of Arlathan and tried to use them but failed as a means of movement, only succeeding in using them for communication (how exactly isn't said) but that would account for why Duncan thought they came from Tevinter. (A bit like Dorian saying about having seen pictures of orbs like Cory's in Tevinter archives and Solas being quick to point out that they didn't invent them).  I dare say Tevinter claimed a lot of things to be their marvels when in fact they merely acquired them through conquest and pillage.     The elf in Witch Hunt said her clan had  book on eluvians but didn't know what that meant, only they were elven.     So the Keeper in Masked Empire probably had attended a gathering of the clans in the interim where he acquired new information about eluvians from the elf involved in Witch Hunt.   Then Felassan discovered he had a particular ambition about locating one and manipulated him from then on.

[Ashagar]

I wouldn't discount though that at least with the orbs at least that the ancient Tevinter figured out how to make them from the examples they got from the elves and the knowelege was lost during the first blight or maybe even they brought some with them from the Neromenian tribes original homeland before setting in Thedas before encountering the elves.

[In Exile]

I'm not sure the Tevinter could make a foci. It's not entirely clear how those are made. Based on what we see in Trespasser, it may well be that they require a Titan.