What is 'lore'? From what I've seen in both these forums and the Dragon age ones, the only time that is brought up is when someone has a weak beef about a story concept. Lore is always used in place of this is what we know now and we are going to assume that everything we know now will not and should not change. Very different than 'Lore'
Well said.
I'm going to steal that and it put it in the "anti-melee thread".
Reapers, iirc, don't invent technology they assimilate and adapt technology like Star Trek's borg collective. The technology to not need refueling would have come from a precursor species, if that is the case.
As for "Why the Andromeda galaxy?". It's possible the Ark(s), if they are precursor, are set to auto-navigation like Destiny in Stargate Universe. To make the journey quicker, either to return to the Milky Way or for more colonists to follow, the precursors who made the original journey could have built mass relays from their Ark(s) and set them up along the route once they were outside the Milky Way network. The ship shown in the N7 video does slightly resemble the Citadel, as well as a Collector ship.
There is not enough information released about the game to make the assumptions that the premise is flawed or doesn't fit with established lore.
What is 'lore'? From what I've seen in both these forums and the Dragon age ones, the only time that is brought up is when someone has a weak beef about a story concept. Lore is always used in place of this is what we know now and we are going to assume that everything we know now will not and should not change. Very different than 'Lore'
ME3 lore suggests:
- FTL travel has been used in the game world.
- Large infrastructure projects can be built in a short time with the right resources.
- Alien races will cooperate when faced with possible extinction
- The current version of the Reaper purge has been delayed and taken longer than previous ones.
- Small parts of a populations can successfully hide from the Reapers.
- Governments and races can keep things a big fat secret from others.
All of that 'lore' leads to the Ark project being 100% logical.
ME3 lore also suggests
FTL travel is limited in both range and acceleration
Large infrastructure projects take years to build unless you can get multiple races throwing everything they have at it and you're willing to crash the economy
Alien races will cooperate if they have absolutely no other choice and are facing imminent extinction
Yes, the purge was delayed for three years. Fail to see how this is relevant
Also true, but irrelevant
I had random strangers on the Citadel offering to help with the Crucible Project. They can't keep secrets all that well
No, the Ark project makes it look like people with rowboat technology managed to build an ocean liner somehow
Yes. It's science fiction. Not fantasy.
And yes we' need to suspend disbelief. But it's one thing to suspend disbelief. IT's quite another to hang it by the neck until it's dead.
It's actually both. One person's hang by the neck is another's thrilling ride. So just where do the writers and developers draw the line? I say in their imaginations. And we can either like it or leave it.
And those are the weakest points of the series.
I'm not asking for hard science fiction. I'm asking for the lore to at least be consistent with itself.
I mean, seriously is "Magic A Is Magic A" too much to ask for?
Yes. Because, as we all should know, in the expanse between the microverse and the universe Magic A can be a lot of different things. All at the same time. They are called "Strangelets" in the world of real science. In science fiction & fantasy, we call them whatever we want too.
Just saying. Not really trying to be a wise azz.
ME3 lore also suggests
FTL travel is limited in both range and acceleration
Not really at all. You could go from one relay to another over VAST distance and in almost negligible game time.
Large infrastructure projects take years to build unless you can get multiple races throwing everything they have at it and you're willing to crash the economy
No, you are inserting a crash the economy aspect into the equation when there is not one shred of evidence to this, none at all. The years and races bit clearly make it a possibility, see the Crucible.
Alien races will cooperate if they have absolutely no other choice and are facing imminent extinction
Except they actually had a council before hand for years and years, imminent extinction the grand plan can easily be a window of a number of years.
Yes, the purge was delayed for three years. Fail to see how this is relevant
Not unexpected that you can't see the relevance, in previous purges or at least the prothean one they had no time to do anything, they were caught off guard, and yet they almost were able to build the crucible. The current situation means whoever decides to take that plan B step has three years to implement the project totally unlike what the Protheans faced.
Also true, but irrelevant
No it is very relevant to this thread becasue part of the op's argument was that no one can escape from the reapers why elave the galaxy if the reapers will just follow you.
I had random strangers on the Citadel offering to help with the Crucible Project. They can't keep secrets all that well
Funny how no one for a hundred years found out the Asaris dirty little secret then right? Also the cruu8le project is proof positive that the reapers are not some see all know all when they are under duress and being hounded. They seemed blissfully unaware of it during a lot of ME3.
No, the Ark project makes it look like people with rowboat technology managed to build an ocean liner somehow
You know absolutely nothing about the Ark ship, nothing at all other than one picture. Also 'LORE' just slapped you in the face with the crucible, something probably more complex than a simple star ship built in a few years from some obscure plans.
Ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away.
Only if the individual lacks the open mindedness to not view it as a problem
or the pessimism to look for problems in something still a year from release.
I wish those who want to wallow in 'problems' all the entertainment they may find from that,
but I liked the last three Mass Effect games, so I have every expectation that I will enjoy this one.
I still feel that groaning about the premise says more about the mind set of the poster
than about BioWare and the premise of its games.
In short:
It's not a problem.
Enjoy what the game is, doesn't worry about what the game isn't.
If Movie makers can weave a stunning tale of interdimensional time and distance travel to far away galaxies that spans seconds to hundreds of years in an instant out of accepted scientific theory (like the movie "Interstellar"). So too can a game maker like Bioware for Mass Effect Andromeda. It's called science fiction folks. It's make believe.
All fiction is "make believe", but all types of fiction have rules and different genres have different rules. Science fiction, being based in real-life science (whether practical or theoretical), happens to have a lot more rules. The purpose is to explore technology or scientific ideas that are not yet available or exists at a purely theoretical level (like FTL), and the effects this technology or these ideas will have on society at large.
We are supposed to suspend belief and judgment and just enjoy the darn story. The more real scientific theory they can weave into the plot the better. But some of us really need to get a grip on our access to fantasy. And stop judging and holding these things up like they are reality. We accept Superman from Krypton, the phantom zone, Green Lantern, Star Wars, Star Trek and etc for what they are and just enjoy them.
Out of the examples you mentioned, only Star Trek could be considered science fiction, but even Star Trek has been very schizophrenic about its adherence to scientific principle, sometimes doing a very good job and sometimes veering straight into the realms of fantasy (Q, anyone). And that's not even getting into its legendary, utterly nonsensical technobabble.
As for Star Wars, George Lucas has admitted that's it's science fantasy. And Green Lantern and Superman? They're science fantasy just like Star Wars, if not more heavy on the fantasy part due to the complete absence of rules around how superpowers work.
Why not Mass Effect Andromeda.
Because it breaks the precedent set by Mass Effect 1 more than ME2 or ME3 (minus the ending, which is a whole 'nother ballpark of precedent-breaking) ever did. A series of works that take place in the same universe has to run on the same principles established in the very first work, to preserve continuity. It's like developing a new game, you develop the rules for how that game is meant to be played and then every player plays the game according to those rules. The whole point of the game breaks down if you keep arbitrarily breaking the rules as you play. Basically, no one likes cheating.
The exact same principle applies to works of fiction. When writers break their own rules, they're effectively cheating, and it will make readers/watchers/players feel cheated. That's why people hate Deus Ex Machinas so much, they're effectively a Konami Code that magically solves the story's conflict, saving the writer the trouble of helping the protagonists find a legitimate way out of it. Internal consistency is the Alpha and Omega of fiction, even in very speculative fiction like fantasy where even the most impossible concepts can be possible and even commonplace (like magic).
I don't want any semblance of reality in Mass Effect Andromeda. I hope the writers and developers fill it with the most wild azzed, insane, mind bending scenarios and theories they can imagine. I don't care if people and creatures can traverse the expanse between galaxies at the unmeasurable speed of a thought. Appear in MW in a flash, then zoom-pow back to Andromeda in an instant. Just let Bioware bring it on without a ton of the strait jackets I've read in some of these opinions. And I am good to go.
Smokey, this isn't Calvinball, this is Mass Effect, there are rules!
And the Andromeda Galaxy is 2.5 million light years from the solar system (About a million light years further), while the Magellanic Cloud is only 163 thousand light years away.
Barnard's galaxy is one of the many satellite galaxies of the milky way. If the reaper's can have a presence in all of those satellite galaxies then there is no excuse for them not to have a presence in Andromeda (its only a extra million light years from Barnard's galaxy) since they have billion's of years to establish it.
The only issue is that Mass Effect FTL (And they would have to be moving at FTL to get there in only a few centuries) requires running an electric charge through element zero to maintain the Mass Effect field, plus the electric discharge issue. Reapers appear to have solved this problem, so we know it can be solved though.
It might be a bit to premature to criticize since they haven't actually presented the concept yet but I suspect it will be something that is glossed over without too much effort to provide a really solid logical backing to the story, lore or motivations behind the decisions that lead to the Andromeda arrival. I would prefer the opening premise didn't leave a dozen unanswerable questions but if you are prepared to ignore these it is still quite likely the new game will have a fun story filled with interesting characters and some deep emotional moments.
It isn't my preference but just moving to Andromeda does have a big benefit. It allows another non-prequel story to be written in the ME universe without assuming a default state for the previous game to finish in. To me the import file and preserved world state is almost purely superficial, I would have no problem letting the writers simply write a story choosing one of the endings and a few more variables. But the large majority doesn't want that.
And I believe trying to write a story that imports whatever decision the player made in ME3 to be much less satisfying than it sounds like we are getting. And hey, I might be completely surprised and the writers do come up with a rock solid premise, we still have virtually no info about it after all.
This is correct, and the other issue is that fuel is also required - both to provide the electric current to make the mass effect work, and to propel the ship with whatever thrusters it uses.
Yes and no. Yes, Council species do need to discharge and re-fuel. No, it's possible to not discharge and not re-fuel, because that's how Reapers work. Apparently some people, who pretend to care about the lore more than others, tend to forget about this part
Reaper power sources seem to violate known physical laws. Reapers usually destroy fuel infrastructure rather than attempting to capture it intact, indicating that Reapers do not require organic species' energy supplies. Consequently, the Reapers attack without regard for maintaining supply lines behind them, except to move husks from one planet to another. Unlike Citadel ships, Reapers do not appear to discharge static buildup from their drive cores, although they sometimes appear wreathed in static discharge when they land on planets.
Anyone supporting the idea of a pre ME3 ending escape to Andromeda might as well be pushing IT.
That's why people hate Deus Ex Machinas so much, they're effectively a Konami Code that magically solves the story's conflict, saving the writer the trouble of helping the protagonists find a legitimate way out of it.
I don't think the "Deus ex Machina" expedient should be confused with bad scripting. A good Deus ex Machina is still a coup de theatre which has its legitimate use and functionality. The latins said "abusus non tollit usum" to mean that the wrong use of an otherwise good thing doesn't prevent its use.
As for ME:A I believe it will be awful scripting, they're squeezing out all the past ideas in a new formula that will exist only to please two cathegories of people: the undecided and the now-addicts. Some of the first ones will eventually convert, and the second ones will buy every anal birth they see.
Yes and no. Yes, Council species do need to discharge and re-fuel. No, it's possible to not discharge and not re-fuel, because that's how Reapers work. Apparently some people, who pretend to care about the lore more than others, tend to forget about this part
How is this in any way relevant? The Reapers are not the ones trying to escape to Andromeda.
The fact is that the galaxy's species don't have the technology to make such a trip. And even if they somehow captured an intact, dead Reaper in order to study it so they can reverse-engineer it, they couldn't because of indoctrination. Cerberus tried to study a Reaper that had been dead for 37 million years and it indoctrinated the entire crew. The batarians tried to study a Reaper that had been dead for over a billion years and that motherf***er brought down their entire civilization.
Without being able to study a Reaper, replicating their tech borders on impossible given their billion year headstart.
Only if the individual lacks the open mindedness to not view it as a problem
or the pessimism to look for problems in something still a year from release.
I wish those who want to wallow in 'problems' all the entertainment they may find from that,
but I liked the last three Mass Effect games, so I have every expectation that I will enjoy this one.
I still feel that groaning about the premise says more about the mind set of the poster
than about BioWare and the premise of its games.
In short:
It's not a problem.
Enjoy what the game is, doesn't worry about what the game isn't.
This is basically the most deluded self-talk of fanboyism I have ever seen in a long time. I am not even kidding.
If you're standing on the deck of the Titanic, changing your perspective isn't really going to change things. Okay, that's an extreme example but whatever. A problem can objectively be a problem with a solution.
The age of the Leviathan of Dis was believed to be close to a billion years old, when found and the recording in Garneau´s lab said at least several million years. Dunno if the batarians got this lower number from studying it some time or it was just a statement for old stuff and the initial close to a billion is more accurate. Either way it wasn´t over a billion years old, unless both numbers are incorrect. The billion years in the past for the Leviathan empire still holds because a round number based on the orbit of an insignificant planet round its star is somehow important for the ME numerology.
The game is called Mass Effect: Andromeda. It's not gonna change. Deal with it.
How is this in any way relevant? The Reapers are not the ones trying to escape to Andromeda.
The fact is that the galaxy's species don't have the technology to make such a trip. And even if they somehow captured an intact, dead Reaper in order to study it so they can reverse-engineer it, they couldn't because of indoctrination. Cerberus tried to study a Reaper that had been dead for 37 million years and it indoctrinated the entire crew. The batarians tried to study a Reaper that had been dead for over a billion years and that motherf***er brought down their entire civilization.
Without being able to study a Reaper, replicating their tech borders on impossible given their billion year headstart.
Oh, now we are talking about impossibility of studying/using Reaper tech.
Only 11 months after the battle, the turians produced the Thanix, their own miniaturized version of Sovereign's gun. The Thanix can fire reliably every five seconds, rivaling a cruiser's firepower but mountable on a fighter or frigate.
It appears that my design includes hardware recovered from the wreckage of Sovereign
After Commander Shepard destroyed the Collector base, Cerberus spent months picking through irradiated rubble for anything useful. The human proto-Reaper the Collectors were building lay in pieces. But its incomplete core survived. The power cell would have been capable of fueling a full-fledged Reaper. After studying the device, Cerberus modified it to fuel the Illusive Man's base. Alliance engineers believe they can use the core similarly to power the Crucible.
And for the last part, I'm too lazy to look trough Citadel playthroughs for exact quote, but shielding against indoctrination is pretty much there.
The game is called Mass Effect: Andromeda. It's not gonna change. Deal with it.
Heheh, I've dealt with it a long time ago, since I'm not buying it. 
How is this in any way relevant? The Reapers are not the ones trying to escape to Andromeda.
The fact is that the galaxy's species don't have the technology to make such a trip. And even if they somehow captured an intact, dead Reaper in order to study it so they can reverse-engineer it, they couldn't because of indoctrination. Cerberus tried to study a Reaper that had been dead for 37 million years and it indoctrinated the entire crew. The batarians tried to study a Reaper that had been dead for over a billion years and that motherf***er brought down their entire civilization.
Without being able to study a Reaper, replicating their tech borders on impossible given their billion year headstart.
Somewhere in the ME3, Aliance managed to kill one of the destroyers and used the probes to study it.
Without being able to study a Reaper, replicating their tech borders on impossible given their billion year headstart.
The reapers' whole plan basically hinges on their ability to shut galactic society down before it advances beyond a certain point, and yet all it took was taking down one capital ship for people to start using technologies that the reapers didn't intend for people to use.
If you're expecting good writing from Bioware at this point, you should've learned your lesson in 2012. It's very clear reading the OP, just how bad those responsible for ME3's ending wrote themselves into a corner.
They should've changed the ending when they had the chance.
If Cerberus was able to shield themselves from indoctrination when obtaining the remains of the human Reaper, how was the Illusive Man unable to shield himself from the control of the Reapers in the end?Oh, now we are talking about impossibility of studying/using Reaper tech.
And for the last part, I'm too lazy to look trough Citadel playthroughs for exact quote, but shielding against indoctrination is pretty much there.
Yeah, unfortunately player choice is only important when the writers think it should be important, which is to say in the ending that's pretty much universally hated. For every other situation, player choice is as expendable as the main characters in Game of Thrones.If you're expecting good writing from Bioware at this point, you should've learned your lesson in 2012. It's very clear reading the OP, just how bad those responsible for ME3's ending wrote themselves into a corner.
They should've changed the ending when they had the chance.
Well said.
I'm going to steal that and it put it in the "anti-melee thread".
Wait, what? There is an anti-melee thread? Why? Oh, it's for entertainment, I guess. Phew.
Well, the Thanix is explainable by Sovereign being blown to pieces, presumably whatever device emits the indoctrination signal was destroyed, something that was still intact aboard the derelict. I recall that the pieces of Sovereign in Bryson's lab were inert.If Cerberus was able to shield themselves from indoctrination when obtaining the remains of the human Reaper, how was the Illusive Man unable to shield himself from the control of the Reapers in the end?
If EDI was built from Reaper hardware studied by human engineers, and those engineers were shielded from indoctrination, how does that justify the Cerberus crew on the Derelict Reaper succumbing to indoctrination?
And if the turians were able to shield themselves from indoctrination when reverse-engineering the Thanix, why was indoctrination even a problem for the turians during the Reaper War?
Why did Saren did get indoctrinated if shielding is so easy? Or Dr Kenson's team in Arrival, a group of people who were completely aware of the existence of indoctrination?
Seriously, why is indoctrination even a thing if it can be completely negated whenever the plot calls for it?
This is exactly the problem with BioWare's writing, it's like they're allergic to internal consistency. A story without internal consistency is inevitably pushed off a slippery slope, ultimately resulting in a universe where everyone can do anything as long as the plot calls for it. While it's not quite at that level yet, Andromeda is without a doubt a massive step in that direction by completely eliminating the limits on space travel that has been in play, completely unchanged, for three games.
This is all beside the fact that reverse-engineering Reaper tech whenever a significant technological hurdle has to be overcome is literally the most lazy solution to any problem anyone could ever think of. It's like when any new, bleeding edge technology is introduced the easiest answer is always "It's based on Reaper tech" as if the writers have developed amnesia and forgot how dangerous that tech is to organic minds.
And shielding? When exactly was that invented? Why isn't it in the codex? Why would people ever handle Reaper tech without it? Why are people still indoctrinated when this shielding tech exists? Why isn't literally everyone using it in the middle of a Reaper invasion?!
Retour en haut