225 réponses à ce sujet

[Zekka]

Since we already have a Fallout 4 topic. It dawned on me that Fallout 4 has received quite a lot of backlash ever since it released and had a dialogue wheel both from players and reviewers.

 

I wonder, is there a possibility that Andromeda could also receive criticism for it's dialogue wheel too or will it be ignored because it's mass effect?

 

A lot of the complaints about Fallout 4's dialogue wheel aren't just because it's like Mass Effect's but because of it's implementation. Is it something bio should look at?

[LemurFromTheId]

Just get rid of it.

[Inquisitor_Jonah]

I like the dialogue well, just not the lack of options they are putting in them. DA:I had a decent almont of options to choose, I just don't like the paraphrasing, because they often fail to deliver what the character will actually say. So, I guess it's best to return to the dialogue list where there's space to show the full lines, even if it sacrifices the ascetic organization of the dialogue.

[wolfhowwl]

Since we already have a Fallout 4 topic. It dawned on me that Fallout 4 has received quite a lot of backlash ever since it released and had a dialogue wheel both from players and reviewers.

 

I wonder, is there a possibility that Andromeda could also receive criticism for it's dialogue wheel too or will it be ignored because it's mass effect?

 

A lot of the complaints about Fallout 4's dialogue wheel aren't just because it's like Mass Effect's but because of it's implementation. Is it something bio should look at?

 

Mass Effect always had a dialogue wheel and a voiced protagonist while Bethesda clumsily shoved one into a franchise that never had one before hence the backlash.

 

I doubt Andromeda will receive much if any criticism for having one since it is an accepted franchise feature.

[RoboticWater]

I doubt it will get anywhere near the level of criticism considering that it's been a staple of BioWare games for years and has managed to keep most people largely content. I think Fallout got a bigger hit because it was an entirely new system that appears to be a blatant restriction on dialog. Of course, it certainly didn't help that choices were often just different degrees of "yes," and the especially egregious obfuscation with the "sarcastic," option. It was all on the heels of Obsidian's incredible writing and ever-increasing allegations that Fallout was becoming more and more streamlined to the detriment to the franchise.

 

As long as BioWare maintains their albeit loose standards with the dialog wheel, I don't see any uproar occurring, because honestly, BioWare's dialog wheel is pretty good, all things considered.

[slimgrin]

It's an abomination.

[Zekka]

Mass Effect always had a dialogue wheel and a voiced protagonist while Bethesda clumsily shoved one into a franchise that never had one before hence the backlash.

 

I doubt Andromeda will receive much if any criticism for having one since it is an accepted franchise feature.

While I understand this, a lot of the criticism people have for it they always pointed back to Mass Effect with things like "you have choices in which your character says something different than what you choose like mass effect".

[RoboticWater]

While I understand this, a lot of the criticism people have for it they always pointed back to Mass Effect with things like "you have choices in which your character says something different than what you choose like mass effect".

I see that complaint sometimes outside of the BSN, but not too often. Maybe I'm just not visiting the right forums.

 

Regardless, whenever I see that complaint, it doesn't often seem debilitating to people. Sure, Fallout folks may be recalling it in a worse light coming straight out of their poor experience, but the negative opinions I see generally cite it as a nuisance more than a terrible problem.

[wolfhowwl]

While I understand this, a lot of the criticism people have for it they always pointed back to Mass Effect with things like "you have choices in which your character says something different than what you choose like mass effect".

 

I felt like that problem was biggest in ME1 and they got better with paraphrasing as the series went along.

[afgncaap7]

My only real complaint with the current ME dialogue wheel is how it can sometimes be misleading with regards to what Shepard will actually say. I'd rather just have it show a preview of Shepards actual response.

[Innocent Bystander]

In ME dialogue wheel works just fine. In Fallout dialogue square doesn't. Half the time you get 1) Maybe 2) Sarcastic 3) Yes 4) No. Also half the time you select something and PC says something completely different. There's also that thing that all of dialogue options (except for yes and no) are totally meaningless, because you'll get the same responses regardless of what you choose.

It's a Mess (Effect).

[KaiserShep]

I thought BioWare has gradually improved the dialogue wheel, both in the way it functions and in the writing of the paraphrases. I think ME:A's will be just fine. 

[Synthetic Turian]

It's an abomination.

 

When I shoot it, it explodes: Hot fiery substance everywhere.   It melts shields and armor. 

 

And don't even let it be possessed. 

[LemurFromTheId]

The problem with the dialogue wheel is that it leads to dumbed-down roleplaying, because you always know what the optimal things to say are. Want to be a Paragon? Just pick the top-right option - every time! Well, unless there's a blue Win The Conversation™ option, of course. No need to even read anything.

 

Bioware should be looking at other games such as The Witcher 2/3 to see how intelligent dialogue should be made. In TW3 you simply get a list of options, and it's your job to read them and figure out what's a good thing to say and what's not. And of course it also uses icons to mark special options such as initiating combat, intimidation or investigation.

[Ahriman]

They should remove this rudimentary wheel altogether. Good / bad interrupts are the next era of RPG. Just press one of these two buttons whenever you feel like dialog is getting boring and let the awesome happen. EA hire me already!

On a serious note, I guess I'll repeat myself, but this problem was already solved in Deus Ex: HR. If you want to see the full line - you have the option to. If you don't want to know what your character will say - you don't use that option. Though it was too hard for Bethesda to implement, so it had to be done by one modder a week after the release, so I don't have high hopes for BW with their relatively small budget.

[Fortlowe]

I like the efficiency of the wheel. I just think a layer of tone selection should be blanketed over it. For example, if the options for a given dialogue response boil down to "yes", "bargain", or "no", then each of these selections should have a corresponding selection of tones to deliver said dialogue.

The process of choosing "no", for example, should involve moving my joystick to or hovering my mouse over "no" then hitting a button, with a corresponding on screen display, indicating the tone I want to use when I refuse. No can be regrettable, or coy and mischievous, or down right mean, amongst countless other permutations due to tone. So why not include tone in gameplay?

I think doings so not only goes a long way to solving the supposed paraphrasing problem, but would also deepen the players connection to the role they are playing. Mind, it would mean at the very least increasing dialogue nine fold, so given time constraints and a looming strike this may never happen, but it would be brilliant if it could somehow.

[Innocent Bystander]

Bioware should be looking at other games such as The Witcher 2/3 to see how intelligent dialogue should be made. In TW3 you simply get a list of options, and it's your job to read them and figure out what's a good thing to say and what's not. And of course it also uses icons to mark special options such as initiating combat, intimidation or investigation.

No, they shouldn't. BG didn't have dialogue wheel, it had great dialogue system, so they know very well how's it done.

BioWare started using that when they started making games for consoles. Console games use radial menus for all sorts of things cuz it's convenient, so why not for dialogue? Using abreviations, instead of full sentences, accounts for, for a lack of better word, dumbing down of games in general.

I wouldn't mind them using same dialogue system as in BG, I'd actually prefer it, but I don't mind their dialogue wheel either. As long as they don't "dumb it down" even further. *cough* Fallout *cough*

[LemurFromTheId]

No, they shouldn't. BG didn't have dialogue wheel, it had great dialogue system, so they know very well how's it done.

BioWare started using that when they started making games for consoles. Console games use radial menus for all sorts of things cuz it's convenient, so why not for dialogue? Using abreviations, instead of full sentences, accounts for, for a lack of better word, dumbing down of games in general.

I wouldn't mind them using same dialogue system as in BG, I'd actually prefer it, but I don't mind their dialogue wheel either. As long as they don't "dumb it down" even further. *cough* Fallout *cough*

 

I thought it's rather obvious that when we're talking about the "dialogue wheel", we don't just mean the shape in which the dialogue is presented, but how conversations in these games actually function.

 

I don't give a **** whether the dialogue takes the shape of a list, a wheel, a triangle, a dodecahedron or a bezier curve. The point is that the player shouldn't know that option A is always the "be nice" option and B is always the "be an asshat" option - and the game definitely shouldn't mark the options that automatically lead to the best possible outcome.

 

The dialogue system in ME doesn't require thinking at all. It doesn't even require reading. I want that changed.

 

BG's dialogue system was essentially the same as in TW3 (though presented slightly differently), I just wanted to pick a modern example.

[Fogg]

The problem with Fallout 4's dialogue wheel was that you had no idea what the implementations were. I mean, what's 'sarcastic'. Sure, I'd like to hear it, but if it screws up my quest somehow I won't take the risk. BioWare has always done this better.

 

The only change to the good old dialogue wheel should be a different key for skipping and selecting a line. Really, this is important.

[pkypereira]

I'm expecting that BioWare will continue to have the dialogue wheel in ME:A, I just hope that it's readable. I remember it was somewhat difficult to read in ME2, it didn't seem as bad in ME3 so I hope they can use it well.

[AlanC9]

Bioware should be looking at other games such as The Witcher 2/3 to see how intelligent dialogue should be made. In TW3 you simply get a list of options, and it's your job to read them and figure out what's a good thing to say and what's not. And of course it also uses icons to mark special options such as initiating combat, intimidation or investigation.

How is this different from DA:I? Or ME, for that matter?

[AlanC9]

I
I don't give a **** whether the dialogue takes the shape of a list, a wheel, a triangle, a dodecahedron or a bezier curve. The point is that the player shouldn't know that option A is always the "be nice" option and B is always the "be an asshat" option - and the game definitely shouldn't mark the options that automatically lead to the best possible outcome.

The dialogue system in ME doesn't require thinking at all. It doesn't even require reading. I want that changed.

But the kind of thinking you're askiing for is out-of-character thinking. Decoding the writer's intended tone isn't something Ryder will be doing; it's something AlanC9 will need to do before deciding which of the options available is the best fit for this particular Ryder. Tone icons, or the ME vertical alignment, mean that I don't have to do thinking that I shouldn't be doing.

The italed has nothing to do with the wheel, if I'm right that you're talking about the colored Charm and Intimidate options. These represent successful use of a skill. Skill systems should be transparent to the player. (Granted, ME2's handling of these skills was awful, and ME3's was only marginally superior. But that's a skill system problem.) KotOR and NWN flag their skill use lines too, for instance.

Of course, you can make a case that RPGs shouldn't have such skills in the first place.

[LemurFromTheId]

How is this different from DA:I? Or ME, for that matter?

 

In ME you know that top-right is a paragon choice that always leads to paragon results. You also know that it's always a good - or probably even optimal - idea to pick a blue option if one is available. And same goes for renegade and red.

 

No thinking is required. No surprises.

 

In TW3 the game doesn't tell you what's the right option to "win the conversation". You have to actually read the options and choose the option that you think is likely to result the best outcome - taking the person you're dealing with into the account.

 

All this is, of course, tied to ME's paragon/renegade system, which forces the writers to think in those terms - and this tends to lead to dualistic black-and-white options. TW3, on the other hand, doesn't have this baggage, and as a result, it constantly offers much more interesting, nuanced options.

[LemurFromTheId]

But the kind of thinking you're askiing for is out-of-character thinking. Decoding the writer's intended tone isn't something Ryder will be doing; it's something AlanC9 will need to do before deciding which of the options available is the best fit for this particular Ryder. Tone icons, or the ME vertical alignment, mean that I don't have to do thinking that I shouldn't be doing.

The italed has nothing to do with the wheel, if I'm right that you're talking about the colored Charm and Intimidate options. These represent successful use of a skill. Skill systems should be transparent to the player. (Granted, ME2's handling of these skills was awful, and ME3's was only marginally superior. But that's a skill system problem.) KotOR and NWN flag their skill use lines too, for instance.

Of course, you can make a case that RPGs shouldn't have such skills in the first place.

 

1) No, it's absolutely not out-of-character thinking. It's just thinking about what you want to say - and what you don't want to say - to the person you're talking to in order to achieve whatever it is you want to achieve with the conversation. Just like in a real conversation.

 

2) The problem with ME is that if you have the option to charm/intimidate, you always succeed. In TW3 you can also charm or intimidate, but this is not guaranteed to work, and it may even backfire - just like in real life. The system in TW3 is transparent enough that it lets you make informed decisions, it's not just a random result. For example, trying to usee Axii hex on a group of people with low skill is a stupid move, and every player should be able to figure that out. In ME you don't need to consider your options and the possible results at all: having a blue/red option available is a complete non-choice, it always leads to the best possible outcome.

[Dabrikishaw]

My sole problem with the Dialogue Wheel is the paraphrasing, which is caused by the wheel being in the center of the screen instead of the far left side.