225 réponses à ce sujet

[Arcian]

Since we already have a Fallout 4 topic. It dawned on me that Fallout 4 has received quite a lot of backlash ever since it released and had a dialogue wheel both from players and reviewers.

 

I wonder, is there a possibility that Andromeda could also receive criticism for it's dialogue wheel too or will it be ignored because it's mass effect?

 

A lot of the complaints about Fallout 4's dialogue wheel aren't just because it's like Mass Effect's but because of it's implementation. Is it something bio should look at?

Fallout 4's "wheel" is just a bastardized version of Mass Effect's. Mass Effect actually did a very good job with the dialogue wheel, until they began stripping it down to the bare minimum in ME2 and ME3.

[rocklikeafool]

It's an abomination.

Why do you play any Bioware game, since 2007, then? Just get out of here.

 

My sole problem with the Dialogue Wheel is the paraphrasing, which is caused by the wheel being in the center of the screen instead of the far left side. 

The problem with this is...how exactly are they going to show things on the left side of the wheel? Spin the wheel around in some awkward manner? Plus, it honestly is more fun with paraphrasing. I don't feel it would have been as funny in DA2 if "silly Hawke" options were fully revealed before your character actually spoke them.

[Arcian]

The problem with this is...how exactly are they going to show things on the left side of the wheel? Spin the wheel around in some awkward manner? Plus, it honestly is more fun with paraphrasing. I don't feel it would have been as funny in DA2 if "silly Hawke" options were fully revealed before your character actually spoke them.

That's actually a problem people have with the Fallout 4 mod that restores the dialogue system from Fallout 3 and New Vegas.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Why do you play any Bioware game, since 2007, then? Just get out of here.

DAO, with full text and a silent protagonist, was released in 2009.

And Inquisition finally managed to provide enough information in the paraphrase, which is the first time the dialogue wheel has worked for me at all.

Dialogue selection in DA2 and all 3 ME games was horrific.

The problem with this is...how exactly are they going to show things on the left side of the wheel? Spin the wheel around in some awkward manner?

Don't have a left side. Just put all the options on the right.

Putting the wheel in the middle places too small a limit on how long each paraphrase can be. And more information is better.

Plus, it honestly is more fun with paraphrasing. I don't feel it would have been as funny in DA2 if "silly Hawke" options were fully revealed before your character actually spoke them.

I never found that funny. It was always frustrating.

I'm not playing these games to watch someone else's character act out a story. I play these games to roleplay, and I can't do that if I don't get to know which option I'm choosing.

I just started playing some DAO DLC yesterday, and I'm reminded how much I prefer the silent protagonist approach (also, I've spent hundreds of hours in Skyrim, and will be modding the voice out of FO4 when I get it).

[rocklikeafool]

I just started playing some DAO DLC yesterday, and I'm reminded how much I prefer the silent protagonist approach (also, I've spent hundreds of hours in Skyrim, and will be modding the voice out of FO4 when I get it).

Then why are you even here, discussing this? 

[AlanC9]

Fallout 4's "wheel" is just a bastardized version of Mass Effect's. Mass Effect actually did a very good job with the dialogue wheel, until they began stripping it down to the bare minimum in ME2 and ME3.

Wait... having three different paraphrases all leading to Shepard speaking the same line was good?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Then why are you even here, discussing this?

Because BioWare has long done some things better than other developers. Their combat has been the best RPG combat around for many years, and they still do excellent world-building.

[AlanC9]

In ME you know that top-right is a paragon choice that always leads to paragon results. You also know that it's always a good - or probably even optimal - idea to pick a blue option if one is available. And same goes for renegade and red.

No thinking is required. No surprises.

In TW3 the game doesn't tell you what's the right option to "win the conversation". You have to actually read the options and choose the option that you think is likely to result the best outcome - taking the person you're dealing with into the account.

Again, this is muddling up tone with skill use options. You get this right in the next post, so why are you confusing the issue here?

All this is, of course, tied to ME's paragon/renegade system, which forces the writers to think in those terms - and this tends to lead to dualistic black-and-white options. TW3, on the other hand, doesn't have this baggage, and as a result, it constantly offers much more interesting, nuanced options.

Sounds like your problem isn't related to the wheel, but to P/R. Dragon Age doesn't have P/R. For that matter, Bio games have always followed the good/neutral/evil response order. KotOR, for instance, typically ordered the choices as LS/neutral/DS. This caused hilarity when Bio switched the order at the Temple Mount confrontation.

[KaiserShep]

Wait... having three different paraphrases all leading to Shepard speaking the same line was good?

 

Yeah, I think people forget how often Mass Effect had false choices where a wheel with multiple options may essentially be stealth autodialogue. 

[AlanC9]

Maybe there's something to be said for enabling the player to lie to himself, though.

[AlanC9]

Case in point:

1) No, it's absolutely not out-of-character thinking. It's just thinking about what you want to say - and what you don't want to say - to the person you're talking to in order to achieve whatever it is you want to achieve with the conversation. Just like in a real conversation.

This is just confused. What I actually want to say is irrelevant. Whatever I want, my only options are the ones that the dialogue writer put there for the PC to possibly say. Period.

2) The problem with ME is that if you have the option to charm/intimidate, you always succeed. In TW3 you can also charm or intimidate, but this is not guaranteed to work, and it may even backfire - just like in real life. The system in TW3 is transparent enough that it lets you make informed decisions, it's not just a random result. For example, trying to usee Axii hex on a group of people with low skill is a stupid move, and every player should be able to figure that out. In ME you don't need to consider your options and the possible results at all: having a blue/red option available is a complete non-choice, it always leads to the best possible outcome.

So your position really is that this should be a matter of player skill, not character skill? OK, but lots of RPGs have had dialogue skills. Some of them were quite good.

[Zekka]

Well, is it possible to just allow the player an option menu to switch between dialogue wheel and full text and dialogue lines? I don't know how devs do it but it doesn't seem to difficult to switch between both when I see that mods do it.

[AlanC9]

Possible? Sure. Bio's last word on the subject came around the time of DA2. They tested such a system, but it didn't test well. Apparently players toggled the system on because they were scared of not knowing what the actual line was, but then found that it was boring to read the line and then hear the same line. So the toggle made things worse, not better.

[theflyingzamboni]

Yeah, I think people forget how often Mass Effect had false choices where a wheel with multiple options may essentially be stealth autodialogue. 

So true. I just recently played ME1 again, and was really noticing that. More so than before. I'm pretty sure in almost every instance this is true. The only thing that changes is whether neutral is a re-paraphrasing of the paragon or renegade option. ME3 was just more open about the fact there were only two choices.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maybe there's something to be said for enabling the player to lie to himself, though.

He could lie to himself better by not being contradicted by the line.

 

I don't care if the NPC reaction is identical for all three options, but I want the things my character says to be things I expect based on my choice.

 

The full line should never surprise the player even a little bit.  The design goal should be for the player to be able to deduce the full line from the paraphrase so that hearing it provides no new information at all.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Possible? Sure. Bio's last word on the subject came around the time of DA2. They tested such a system, but it didn't test well. Apparently players toggled the system on because they were scared of not knowing what the actual line was, but then found that it was boring to read the line and then hear the same line. So the toggle made things worse, not better.

This boredom finding only highlights how useless the voiced line is.  If, when the voiced line is isolated in this way, players find it boring, why does BioWare insist on voicing the line?  This test demonstrates that voicing the line adds nothing to the game.

[Zekka]

Possible? Sure. Bio's last word on the subject came around the time of DA2. They tested such a system, but it didn't test well. Apparently players toggled the system on because they were scared of not knowing what the actual line was, but then found that it was boring to read the line and then hear the same line. So the toggle made things worse, not better.

I'm not really seeing how that is worse.

[Black Jimmy]

There may be a few naysayers but Mass Effect will be fine overall, because Bethesda implementation of a dialogue wheel was very poor. That's why so many people are complaining about it as it limits the options a player can take.

 

Inquisitions way of using the dialogue will was great. A mix between that and Mass Effects would be ideal, as they keeps the Paragon/Renagade aspect going but gives you a few moments to define your character in your own way.

[9TailsFox]

Possible? Sure. Bio's last word on the subject came around the time of DA2. They tested such a system, but it didn't test well. Apparently players toggled the system on because they were scared of not knowing what the actual line was, but then found that it was boring to read the line and then hear the same line. So the toggle made things worse, not better.

And how this is problem found it boring just turn pharaprases on. Problem solved.

[theflyingzamboni]

This boredom finding only highlights how useless the voiced line is.  If, when the voiced line is isolated in this way, players find it boring, why does BioWare insist on voicing the line?  This test demonstrates that voicing the line adds nothing to the game. 

 

Or it highlights how useless the full line was. Your conclusion does not necessarily follow from the evidence. All you can actually conclude is that the sample did not like the two in conjunction. I know how much you like voiceless, but really.

[AlanC9]

And how this is problem found it boring just turn pharaprases on. Problem solved.

I addressed that, didn't I? The problem wasn't that they couldn't turn paraphrases back on, the problem is that they wouldn't. They'd keep looking at the full text, finding that mode less enjoyable, but leave the full-text mode on out of... fear of picking the wrong line, I guess? Anyway, the data is said to have shown that the system tested worse with the toggle. Whether we understand the mechanism isn't all that important.

i suppose it's a little bit like what happens when a completionist tries to play DA:I. Sure, the answer to a game having a bunch of optional content you don't like to play is to simply not play that content, but some of us have trouble doing that.

[AlanC9]

I'm not really seeing how that is worse.

Well, that's the thing about experiments. If they always told you what you expected they'd tell you, you wouldn't need to do them.

[KaiserShep]

He could lie to himself better by not being contradicted by the line.
 
I don't care if the NPC reaction is identical for all three options, but I want the things my character says to be things I expect based on my choice.
 
The full line should never surprise the player even a little bit.  The design goal should be for the player to be able to deduce the full line from the paraphrase so that hearing it provides no new information at all.

That's a separate matter though. Characters reacting the same way to multiple lines is different from two separate options written differently leading to the exact same dialogue, as is the case in ME1.

[wolfhowwl]

Yeah, I think people forget how often Mass Effect had false choices where a wheel with multiple options may essentially be stealth autodialogue. 

 

I would prefer auto-dialogue in that case since the conversation can at least be written to have decent flow and not feel stilted.

 

They could also look at streamlining some of the investigate options that amount to choosing which order you receive the expo-dump in.

[Iakus]

 . ME3 was just more open about the fact there were only two choices.

Maybe they should just offer more than two choices then?

 

It gets really annoying to try and roleplay someone who's only dialogue options are "I am sad" or "I am p*ssed"