225 réponses à ce sujet

[DarkLordAngel916]

everyone has their opinion on what they want this game to be... they want it to be anything but a mass effect game...it wouldn't be mass effect  are bioware if not for the  Dialogue wheel its all most sacrilegious and fighting words when someone mentions that the don't want the Dialogue wheel in the next me game i hope bioware is not  listening to anyone's creative thoughts on what they think the next game should be like...are it's going to be the rocky horror picture show mmorpg lol

[Jorji Costava]

What is the player's job in a game like that? What does the player add to the experience? Why are those games interactive at all? Where's the gameplay?

 

Well, there are plenty of things you can do in games that don't give you 100% control over your character's mental states. One quick example for now: In games you can explore the nooks and crannies of the game world in ways that would not be feasible in books, movies or TV shows (MrBTongue calls this "Shandification"). These other forms of media have to be concerned about pacing, whereas games can proceed at the player's preferred pace. This is already a good reason for ME to be a game as opposed to a book or movie, as the world building of ME is one of the major sources of its appeal. 

 

Do these features add up to make ME a true 'roleplaying game?' I deny that there is any Platonic essence of RPGs that is somehow inscribed into the fabric of the universe itself; "RPG" is mostly a gerrymandered category that reflects the contingent history of game development as much as it does the core gameplay mechanics of the games that get put into that category. I'm generally content to judge games on their own terms rather than compare them to some list of essential features that any game of a given genre supposedly must have.

 

EDIT: Snipped the quote for ease of reading.

[Lebanese Dude]

 I'm generally content to judge games on their own terms rather than compare them to some list of essential features that any game of a given genre supposedly must have.

 

This is the best approach in my opinion. Leads to far less unnecessary irritation and a lot more potential for enjoyment.

[KaiserShep]

Being told a story is different-in-kind from roleplaying a character. The audience for a story exists outside the story. When I'm roleplaying, I shouldn't be aware of that separation.

This makes me wonder how some people feel about music in these games. Like, the Warden doesn't hear the epic segment of Ferelden At War when King Cailan's army and the darkspawn are clashing at the battle of Ostagar. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

It's called apologizing that the listener didn't understand what you were attempting to convey, and explaining your position another way.

The interpretation isn't my job.  I express the information as best I can, and the interpretation is up to the listener.

 

If I provide the tools that person needs to understand, and they still don't understand, I don't know what I can do for them.

I find there are far more misinterpretations in written conversations due to the lack of tone. Something written in a neutral, easy-going tone can be taken as aloof and the other party easily becomes offended because they can't hear the tone in the author's voice. When you can hear what someone else says to you, it's more difficult to become offended by accident.

Don't take it as either thing.  The tone isn't there.  Stop inventing it.

 

What would being offended by accident even be?  Does the speaker's intent matter at all as to whether a statement is offensive?  I would say no.

[Sylvius the Mad]

"Information" is not the correct term. We're making up what the companion heard, and then inventing a thought process that would explain the companion's response to that invented dialogue. There's no information here.

We don't need to make up the NPC's thought process (unless we think our character can read the NPC's mind).  We make up the tone, if we think tone matters, just as we make up the motive and the intent.  Just as we make up any of the reasoning behind the character's choice in equipment or combat tactics.  Just as we make up the character's interpretation of the quest objectives.  Just as we make up any detail that matters to us but isn't made explicit on-screen.  Does your character ever eat?  Unless your answer is "I don't know", you just made that up.

 

And it's all information because it's all in the game world.  It's in the game world because we decide it is.  It's our world.  We can do with it what we please.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Much like actual syntax and vocabulary, tone is a construct that must be learned to be understood and is extremely subject to cultural norms. One might misunderstand tone as much as much as one would misunderstand words said with a thick accent or written with a different dialect.

I ignore it.  I do fine.

 

I ask others to ignore it, and they seem incapable of doing so.

In fact, tone is generally a more universal concept than language. A person could walk up to me and yell something at me in Chinese, and I'd probably assume that whatever they said, it probably wasn't flattering.

The person might be excited.  The person might be trying to warn you of imminent danger.  The person might think you're deaf.

 

The minds of others are unknowable.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Well, there are plenty of things you can do in games that don't give you 100% control over your character's mental states. One quick example for now: In games you can explore the nooks and crannies of the game world in ways that would not be feasible in books, movies or TV shows (MrBTongue calls this "Shandification"). These other forms of media have to be concerned about pacing, whereas games can proceed at the player's preferred pace. This is already a good reason for ME to be a game as opposed to a book or movie, as the world building of ME is one of the major sources of its appeal.

And yet, I'm completely indifferent to the welfare of that world because I have no connection to any of the people in it.

Do these features add up to make ME a true 'roleplaying game?' I deny that there is any Platonic essence of RPGs that is somehow inscribed into the fabric of the universe itself; "RPG" is mostly a gerrymandered category that reflects the contingent history of game development as much as it does the core gameplay mechanics of the games that get put into that category. I'm generally content to judge games on their own terms rather than compare them to some list of essential features that any game of a given genre supposedly must have.

That the term is misused doesn't tell us anything about what it means.

[Sylvius the Mad]

This makes me wonder how some people feel about music in these games. Like, the Warden doesn't hear the epic segment of Ferelden At War when King Cailan's army and the darkspawn are clashing at the battle of Ostagar. 

I'm not confident the Warden even witnesses that event.  There didn't appear to be any relevant vantage points available from which to see it.

 

I argued at the time that the scene shouldn't exist.  The scene introducing Zevran certainly shouldn't.

[Lady Luminous]

The interpretation isn't my job. I express the information as best I can, and the interpretation is up to the listener.

If I provide the tools that person needs to understand, and they still don't understand, I don't know what I can do for them.
Don't take it as either thing. The tone isn't there. Stop inventing it.

What would being offended by accident even be? Does the speaker's intent matter at all as to whether a statement is offensive? I would say no.

So you've never tried to explain your point in a different way when someone was confused by something you've said? Different people have different learning styles and sometimes a person may not understand what you're telling them; do you just throw your hands up and walk away at that point?

I'm not inventing anything; I'm certainly not the first person to ever use the word tone, and it's present in all conversations.

Absolutely intent matters! You've never worried that someone is angry with you after they've written a sharply worded email, and then later learned that you had just misinterpreted their word choice and/or writing style?

[Lady Luminous]

We don't need to make up the NPC's thought process (unless we think our character can read the NPC's mind). We make up the tone, if we think tone matters, just as we make up the motive and the intent. Just as we make up any of the reasoning behind the character's choice in equipment or combat tactics. Just as we make up the character's interpretation of the quest objectives. Just as we make up any detail that matters to us but isn't made explicit on-screen. Does your character ever eat? Unless your answer is "I don't know", you just made that up.

And it's all information because it's all in the game world. It's in the game world because we decide it is. It's our world. We can do with it what we please.

Except it's not our world; it's BioWare's world and they're graciously allowing us to spend time in it.

[Battlebloodmage]

I have no problem with dialogue wheels. What I have problem with is the paraphrasing. People think that it is the fault of the dialogue wheel when it's the voiced protagonist that paraphrasing things for us. I LOVE voiced protagonist, but when they actually speak, they talk about stuffs that are different from what I pick. Silent protagonists don't speak, so we don't know what the developers are intended with the dialogue options. When I select the sarcastic option for my SS, he starts to yell at Nick. It's weird and totally not what I would have wanted. 

[Laughing_Man]

Except it's not our world; it's BioWare's world and they're graciously allowing us to spend time in it.

 

Right. An entirely altruistic initiative to be sure.

 

Video games are a product like any other, Bioware and EA sell them, and the consumers must graciously decide if they buy them or not.

Consumers may also graciously provide input on their feelings regarding the quality of said product.

[Greetsme]

I think the dialogue wheel should be a carnival wheel that you spin for a random reaction.  Let's face it, it may as well, seeing how the text you choose, has sod-all to do with what your character actually says.

[Fortlowe]

So what are some solutions? Given that, whether some of us like it or not, the paraphrased wheel and a voiced protagonist and most likely the paragon/ renagade dynamic along with interrupts are all returning, how do we improve upon or "fix" the present system?

From what I've read in this thread so far, the solutions largely involve either removing one or all of the above mechanisms ( which isn't happening) or adding a resource prohibitive (read too fat to fit) toggle for more information (a grouping my own proposition shares with the full dialogue toggle, I'll concede). Any other suggestions?

[KaiserShep]

I'm not confident the Warden even witnesses that event.  There didn't appear to be any relevant vantage points available from which to see it.

 

I argued at the time that the scene shouldn't exist.  The scene introducing Zevran certainly shouldn't.

 

BioWare never really truly commits to the whole self-insert thing. Each game in the DA and ME series showed scenes that exist beyond the sight of the PC, but this is because Bio likes the whole cinematic approach to their games. For the most part, Inquisition came close, right up until the post-credits scene with a big reveal that the Inquisitor is totally in the dark about. 

 

It's in the game world because we decide it is.  It's our world.  We can do with it what we please.

 

 

We only have total control over the game world insofar that BioWare can't deny us the ability to pretend. 

[SarenDidNothingWrong]

I don't want the dialogue wheel, they need something new or at the very least let us fully see what our character will say and give us more than 2-3 god damn options to choose from.

[KaiserShep]

Full lines are likely never going to happen. From what I've observed, much of what a voiced protagonist says in a single dialogue option would likely exceed what they can show on the screen anyhow, and for sake of making the conversation flow, the character may automatically respond to a line as well (e.g. "why?" "how so?" etc.), which wouldn't be accounted for in the line. The most we can hope for is a direct excerpt of the dialogue, namely the first sentence. Of course, they could always just make the PC speak in nothing but single sentences, but I don't want that sh*t. 

[wright1978]

Full lines are likely never going to happen. From what I've observed, much of what a voiced protagonist says in a single dialogue option would likely exceed what they can show on the screen anyhow, and for sake of making the conversation flow, the character may automatically respond to a line as well (e.g. "why?" "how so?" etc.), which wouldn't be accounted for in the line. The most we can hope for is a direct excerpt of the dialogue, namely the first sentence. Of course, they could always just make the PC speak in nothing but single sentences, but I don't want that sh*t. 

 

Well i know DA team looked at the full line option and found it unworkable. Can't see anything other than dialogue wheel & paraphrase returning.

 

Things i think they should do in regards of dialogue wheel fixes, is the return of neutral dialogue, which were a terrible decision to remove in ME3 imo. It's return would stop me having to constantly try and work out which paraphrase is less extreme in scenarios where i don't want to be extreme.

Practically they also need to account for fact people may want to change their response and ensure reloading is possible quickly. In ME3 i found it highly annoying at times i'd have to watch minutes of cinematics before i would be allowed freedom to reload after encountering a particularly jarring dialogue.

[SarenDidNothingWrong]

Full lines are likely never going to happen. From what I've observed, much of what a voiced protagonist says in a single dialogue option would likely exceed what they can show on the screen anyhow, and for sake of making the conversation flow, the character may automatically respond to a line as well (e.g. "why?" "how so?" etc.), which wouldn't be accounted for in the line. The most we can hope for is a direct excerpt of the dialogue, namely the first sentence. Of course, they could always just make the PC speak in nothing but single sentences, but I don't want that sh*t. 

 

Full Lines of dialogue are extremely possible with the dialogue wheel, see Deus Ex HUman Revolution, that game handeled the dialogue mechanic flawlessly.

[Il Divo]

 

Don't take it as either thing.  The tone isn't there.  Stop inventing it.

 

What would being offended by accident even be?  Does the speaker's intent matter at all as to whether a statement is offensive?  I would say no.

 

This is a pretty extreme view point. We don't ever take intent into account in terms of how we determine factors, like accountability? 

 

If someone uses the n-word with absolutely no idea of its meaning, are we supposed to judge that equal to someone who understands exactly what they are saying? Ignorance for example is quite often a consideration in terms of how we evaluate actions. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

So you've never tried to explain your point in a different way when someone was confused by something you've said? Different people have different learning styles and sometimes a person may not understand what you're telling them; do you just throw your hands up and walk away at that point?

Eventually. I've worked as a tutor; I know that sometimes people don't get something the first time. The trick is figuring out where they went wrong. Examine their reasoning and correct mistakes.

If they don't accept my corrections, I can't help them.

But this is rarely available in conversation, especially spoken conversation.

I'm not inventing anything; I'm certainly not the first person to ever use the word tone, and it's present in all conversations.

But when you assign meaning to that tone, you're inventinf the meaning.

Absolutely intent matters! You've never worried that someone is angry with you after they've written a sharply worded email, and then later learned that you had just misinterpreted their word choice and/or writing style?

Sure I have. I've done the same in spoken conversations. In both cases, I can't know the truth, so I plan for both possibilties.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Except it's not our world; it's BioWare's world and they're graciously allowing us to spend time in it.

Death of author. They have no say over what we do with it or how we interpret it.

[AkaFox]

Since we'll be exploring a new galaxy, will our translator technology be able to interpret new alien languages or are we going to have to find different ways to express ourselves without the wheel?

[Lady Luminous]

Right. An entirely altruistic initiative to be sure.

Video games are a product like any other, Bioware and EA sell them, and the consumers must graciously decide if they buy them or not.
Consumers may also graciously provide input on their feelings regarding the quality of said product.

That was a slight barb at Sylvius, and I wasn't being serious.