225 réponses à ce sujet

[Lady Luminous]

So what are some solutions? Given that, whether some of us like it or not, the paraphrased wheel and a voiced protagonist and most likely the paragon/ renagade dynamic along with interrupts are all returning, how do we improve upon or "fix" the present system?

From what I've read in this thread so far, the solutions largely involve either removing one or all of the above mechanisms ( which isn't happening) or adding a resource prohibitive (read too fat to fit) toggle for more information (a grouping my own proposition shares with the full dialogue toggle, I'll concede). Any other suggestions?

I think the easiest and most direct approach is just to ensure the paraphrase is as accurate and true to the line as it can be. The full text shouldn't be necessary if the paraphrasing is done correctly.

[KaiserShep]

I think the easiest and most direct approach is just to ensure the paraphrase is as accurate and true to the line as it can be. The full text shouldn't be necessary if the paraphrasing is done correctly.

I thought Inquisition's was a good improvement over its predecessors in this respect.

[Lady Luminous]

I thought Inquisition's was a good improvement over its predecessors in this respect.

an improvement, definitely, although I often was still surprised at things that came out of my inquisitor's mouth that I never intended when I chose a line.

[fchopin]

much of what a voiced protagonist says in a single dialogue option would likely exceed what they can show on the screen anyhow, 

That is not a problem, if you have subtitles on you can see the full text without any problem to screen size.

All they have to do is have subtitles turned on and show at bottom or top of screen when you mouse over a text line.

 

Very easy to do for them so they should test again with a wider variety of testers and not only people who play only one way.

[Sylvius the Mad]

BioWare never really truly commits to the whole self-insert thing. Each game in the DA and ME series showed scenes that exist beyond the sight of the PC, but this is because Bio likes the whole cinematic approach to their games. For the most part, Inquisition came close, right up until the post-credits scene with a big reveal that the Inquisitor is totally in the dark about.

I completely ignore those scenes.

We only have total control over the game world insofar that BioWare can't deny us the ability to pretend.

BioWare requires that we pretend. Otherwise, we'd have no basis for choosing which weapon to equip.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I thought Inquisition's was a good improvement over its predecessors in this respect.

Inquisition was a dramatic improvement over the previous voiced games.

[Sylvius the Mad]

This is a pretty extreme view point. We don't ever take intent into account in terms of how we determine factors, like accountability?

If someone uses the n-word with absolutely no idea of its meaning, are we supposed to judge that equal to someone who understands exactly what they are saying? Ignorance for example is quite often a consideration in terms of how we evaluate actions.

The effect on listeners would be the same. The offensiveness of the word doesn't change.

I don't find that a defense based on intent carries much weight when one is accused of causing offense.

[Lady Luminous]

The effect on listeners would be the same. The offensiveness of the word doesn't change.

I don't find that a defense based on intent carries much weight when one is accused of causing offense.

It's not a defense, it's forgiveness on the part of the listener.

[Sylvius the Mad]

It's not a defense, it's forgiveness on the part of the listener.

I don't find listeners particularly willing to forgive offense caused in error. They tend to claim that the speaker "should have known", or worse, that the speaker did know and is lying about his supposed ignorance.

[Lady Luminous]

I don't find listeners particularly willing to forgive offense caused in error. They tend to claim that the speaker "should have known", or worse, that the speaker did know and is lying about his supposed ignorance.

Well, you apparently aren't meeting many magnanimous people...

[Sylvius the Mad]

Well, you apparently aren't meeting many magnanimous people...

Perhaps my claims of ignorance are implausible.

[Lady Luminous]

Perhaps my claims of ignorance are implausible.

It's possible it's your delivery. I find that most people are kind and understanding, and willing to forgive.

[Sylvius the Mad]

It's possible it's your delivery. I find that most people are kind and understanding, and willing to forgive.

I don't like denials. I don't understand how they could ever persuade anyone

So if I'm wrongfully accused of something, I tend not to deny it. Instead, I offer evidence that it isn't true. That should be more persuasive.

But it never seems to be.

[Lady Luminous]

I don't like denials. I don't understand how they could ever persuade anyone

So if I'm wrongfully accused of something, I tend not to deny it. Instead, I offer evidence that it isn't true. That should be more persuasive.

But it never seems to be.

It's possible that people think you're being argumentative, when you're really just offering counter-evidence.

But this goes back to people judging tone in a conversation, and them misunderstanding your delivery.

[Sylvius the Mad]

It's possible that people think you're being argumentative, when you're really just offering counter-evidence.

But this goes back to people judging tone in a conversation, and them misunderstanding your delivery.

I explicitly tell people to ignore tone when interpreting my remarks.

On those rare occasions when I actually speak to people.

[Lady Luminous]

I explicitly tell people to ignore tone when interpreting my remarks.

On those rare occasions when I actually speak to people.

It's a habit of daily conversation though, simply because you tell people not to listen to your tone, it may still be difficult for them to spate your words because it's not common practice for people.

I can understand the frustration, I'm just trying to give you some perspective into how others might see the situation.

[GDICanuck]

Bust a deal, face the wheel!

[HuldraDancer]

Topic reminds me of at least two instances that I had a problem with the dialog wheel in ME1 that I remember off the top of my head and one that I haven't experienced before.

 

Been a while since I played but the two I remember were with Garrus one where he was talking about Dr. Heart and the option I picked the first time was something along the lines of 'interesting' which to my surprised ended the conversation and I had to reload to get that quest. The other time was during that quest I can't recall what the paraphrasing was but it was worded in a way that I believed that Shepard was trying to reason with Garrus that killing the doctor may not be a good idea and instead my shepard said something about shooting the doctor themselves.

 

The third example that I have not experince personally but have seen before is in the spoiler tag for size of the image.

Spoiler

[Sylvius the Mad]

It's a habit of daily conversation though, simply because you tell people not to listen to your tone, it may still be difficult for them to spate your words because it's not common practice for people.

I can understand the frustration, I'm just trying to give you some perspective into how others might see the situation.

My point is that I'm fully aware that my tone contains no information listeners can correctly discern. My evidence for this is that people routinely ascribe meaning that isn't there.

As such, people who interpret tone are prone to error, because they're guessing. If there was actually useful information there, people wouldn't make so many mistakes (the errors are a near constant event).

[ThomasBlaine]

Mass Effect's dialogue wheel hasn't been a huge problem for me, although it can be really annoying, because Shepard is a lot more pre-defined than any other Bioware protagonist, can do with less diverse attitudes and needs less micromanaging from me to keep him/her in character. I think it'll depend a lot on how much inherent personality "Ryder" has and how restrictive and/or stupidly vague the dialogue options are in either refining that personality or defining a blank slate in Andromeda.

 

Basically, if Andromeda's dialogue wheel doesn't complement the way they handle Ryder then yes, it'll be an issue just like it is in DAII and to some degree Inquisition.

[AlanC9]

My point is that I'm fully aware that my tone contains no information listeners can correctly discern. My evidence for this is that people routinely ascribe meaning that isn't there.
As such, people who interpret tone are prone to error, because they're guessing. If there was actually useful information there, people wouldn't make so many mistakes (the errors are a near constant event).

Still, it's not surprising that people stick with a generally useful strategy even in the cases where it doesn't work. Trying to evaluate the effectiveness of such strategies all the time can be a huge cognitive sink, with little payoff if they work most of the time.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Still, it's not surprising that people stick with a generally useful strategy even in the cases where it doesn't work. Trying to evaluate the effectiveness of such strategies all the time can be a huge cognitive sink, with little payoff if they work most of the time.

They don't need to evaluate the effectiveness all the time. Just until the strategy proves deficient.

Then the strategy should be abandoned.

It shouldn't take long. Everyone should have done so before reaching adulthood.

[Battlebloodmage]

My problem is usually boiled down to "why is it so hard to explain what we're going to say? Paraphrase it make it hard to guess what we're going to say. FO4 is the worst with this. Sarcastic comments somehow become making a bunch of insults.

[Lady Luminous]

My problem is usually boiled down to "why is it so hard to explain what we're going to say? Paraphrase it make it hard to guess what we're going to say. FO4 is the worst with this. Sarcastic comments somehow become making a bunch of insults.

Agreed, it can be very frustrating to tell whether what you'll say will be clever, or rude, or profane.

[Gotholhorakh]

Paraphrasing needs to go, it's dreadful. It works better in ME than the other RPGs, because ME is effectively a fixed protagonist adventure game, but I'd love to see them cut out this rot in the franchise where it started.

 

If people don't wish to read, then hear, the same text, start reading it on hover and don't restart if the option is clicked. Failing that, add an option if you have the text finalized and available, which is clearly the case if voice actors are reading it out - an option which shows it in the dialog system and not some ghetto subtitle display.

 

Not being allowed to see what your character will say in the dialog system, just to avoid a little redundant reading, is idiotic, and aimed at idiots, and while it's understandable if that's wanted in reality, BioWare should feel bad for neglecting everyone else in previous games.