225 réponses à ce sujet

[Shechinah]

Sarcastic comments somehow become making a bunch of insults.

 

Or in some cases, I believe, making non-sarcastic jokes.
 

[AlanC9]

They don't need to evaluate the effectiveness all the time. Just until the strategy proves deficient.
Then the strategy should be abandoned.
It shouldn't take long. Everyone should have done so before reaching adulthood.

My point was that the strategy generally is efficient. Not 100% of the time, or with 100% of people, but enough.

[AlanC9]

Not being allowed to see what your character will say in the dialog system, just to avoid a little redundant reading, is idiotic, and aimed at idiots, and while it's understandable if that's wanted in reality, BioWare should feel bad for neglecting everyone else in previous games.

Is insulting people who like the current system an effective way to make your case? Or do you figure that you've lost anyway, so there's no harm in posturing?

[Il Divo]

My point was that the strategy generally is efficient. Not 100% of the time, or with 100% of people, but enough.

 

Basically, no different than any other theory. The model we adopt is inevitably going to be what works in the majority of circumstances. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

My point was that the strategy generally is efficient. Not 100% of the time, or with 100% of people, but enough.

And I'm arguing that it isn't, but the mechanism they use to evaluate it is biased by their preconceptions.

Mistakes are dismissed an anomalous even though they're happening all the time.

[Gotholhorakh]

Is insulting people who like the current system an effective way to make your case? Or do you figure that you've lost anyway, so there's no harm in posturing?

 

There's no posturing involved, and no attempt to make anyone feel bad or myself feel good - in good faith, that's what it is and how it is in my opinion, which may be no more important than anyone else's but is certainly no less so. BioWare's games were better without the design mistake that is paraphrasing, and better before pandering to idiots in every little thing. They released prestige products that people are still praising to the rafters, still reinstalling and re-playing even now, as opposed to the current pox-ridden stable of lowest common denominator snoozefests that reinvent fable or skyrim poorly.

 

I guess I could sugar coat it to be more friendly and fluffy but you know, when in Rome. "Suck it up, princess".

[AlanC9]

Or just ignore you. That's what people do, you know.

Remember, Bio likes what they've done. It's popular, too. Calling people who like something idiots doesn't make them dislike it. They just stop taking you seriously.

But yeah, if you're not actually interested in convincing anyone of anything, fire away. It's entertaining. I do that sort of thing myself when talking about how, for instance, modern CRPG players are too weak to handle time constraints, or some similar issue. But I do that because i know that debate's over. We're never going to see anything more challenging than DAI's WEWH, and that got plenty of whining.

[AlanC9]

And I'm arguing that it isn't, but the mechanism they use to evaluate it is biased by their preconceptions.
Mistakes are dismissed an anomalous even though they're happening all the time.

What percentage is "all the time," and how do we measure that against the additional information gained when the strategy functions?

[Sylvius the Mad]

What percentage is "all the time," and how do we measure that against the additional information gained when the strategy functions?

Remember, failure doesn't just fail to provide that additional information. It provides false information. There's considerable value in not having that.

I further maintain that it's not possible, moment-to-moment, to tell whether the approach is working. Only in hindsight can success or failure be determined.

I don't think it's reasonable for a person ever to have confidence in such an approach.

As for "all the time", in my experience more than half.

[Gotholhorakh]

Or just ignore you. That's what people do, you know.

What, those who identify as the "idiots" of my last comment? You say that like being ignored by someone you are openly calling a hindrance to the genre is a bad thing, or something of grave concern.
 

Remember, Bio likes what they've done. It's popular, too. Calling people who like something idiots doesn't make them dislike it. They just stop taking you seriously.
But yeah, if you're not actually interested in convincing anyone of anything, fire away. It's entertaining. I do that sort of thing myself when talking about how, for instance, modern CRPG players are too weak to handle time constraints, or some similar issue. But I do that because i know that debate's over. We're never going to see anything more challenging than DAI's WEWH, and that got plenty of whining.

 
It's great that (new) BioWare like what they've done, and by all means they should pursue what they think is a good and necessary idea - I'm not sure why I would be convincing them to do other than what they think they should do. They are servicing a demand, and others (thank God) are taking their place where they were positioned before. I just thought I'd momentarily throw the amusing little Gaider circlejerk this community has become into sharp relief. As a member of this bsn (and what preceded it, what preceded that...), since I used to mod/break the early games for s.a.g., I am of the era BioWare seems so keen to forget ever happened, I reserve the 'right' to rock up and tell it like it is like some sort of embarrassing loud relative until the day comes when they send me on a trip to Belize... you know, where they sent the Lobby.

On the other point if people feel like they are being labelled idiots, don't feel too bad about it, since I'm sure they don't feel too bad about getting their own way all the time and all sorts of things being ruined for the rest of us as things like role play, reading, challenging gameplay, tactical combat (...the list goes on) are dropped or impeded.

[AlanC9]

What, those who identify as the "idiots" of my last comment? You say that like being ignored by someone you are openly calling a hindrance to the genre is a bad thing, or something of grave concern. 

Since we're talking about Bio staff.... isn't it? Again, no concern if you've already conceded defeat on the point and you're just trying to leave an argument that's a good-looking corpse. But I got the impression that you were trying to sell Bio on your idea.

As for everyone else, it depends on what you think the point of this interaction is.

 As a member of this bsn (and what preceded it, what preceded that...), since I used to mod/break the early games for s.a.g., I am of the era BioWare seems so keen to forget ever happened, I reserve the 'right' to rock up and tell it like it is like some sort of embarrassing loud relative until the day comes when they send me on a trip to Belize...

Hey, should I know you? I've been AlanC9 here forever. Don't recognize your handle.

[Gothfather]

Remember, failure doesn't just fail to provide that additional information. It provides false information. There's considerable value in not having that.

I further maintain that it's not possible, moment-to-moment, to tell whether the approach is working. Only in hindsight can success or failure be determined.

I don't think it's reasonable for a person ever to have confidence in such an approach.

As for "all the time", in my experience more than half.

 

 

The interesting thing is that tone and micro expression all things people use to gather information beyond words spoken have been shown to more more involuntary than not. So you say in an obviously offensive tone "ignore my tone" and blame people for taking offence? How do we know it is offensive because it is a repeatable response that people have so it isn't a single outlier of data. What blows my mind is you are so fraking self absorbed by your own superiority that you honestly think saying "No offence but...[inserting an offensive comment here] " somehow is non offensive. Your tone actually conveys meaning you saying it doesn't doesn't make you magical. Humans convey more information than just their words, you are not so special as to be somehow except from this.

 

If you say something in an offensive tone then you clearly feel that way regardless of the fact that you tell people not to read into your tone. The thing is if you are consciously saying things in an offensive tone even though you don't feel that way then you are paradoxically being offensive because you are going out of your way to upset someone. Our tone is subconscious unless we consciously override it, just like breathing i do it subconsciously but i can consciously speed it up or slow it down or stop it. You can't subconsciously have an offensive tone you don't mean. Now you can be annoyed or angry at someone and suppress that in your tone because of social conventions or because you intellectually realise your anger is misplaced or stems not from their issue but your own. But it is impossible to just magically say something in an offensive tone repeatedly without meaning to.

 

You might think you are a "special snowflake" but this is nothing but ego stroking. It is BS and a pattern of your dismissive attitude of facts that don't support your preferred style of play.

The effect on listeners would be the same. The offensiveness of the word doesn't change.

I don't find that a defense based on intent carries much weight when one is accused of causing offense.

 

Again another false statement. A black person calling another black person the n word can be a sign of affection and familiarity, the source and intent is very much at the heart of things. If one of them said " hey n-word what have you be up too?" The intent and context is very different than  if these same black men said something like "You are just the whiteman's n-word.' Context and intent are very much at the heart of things.  They are not the sole arbiter of what offends and what doesn't but to say the "offensiveness of the word doesn't change" with intent is utterly false.

 

 

There is a reason why humans read micro expressions and tone instinctively because they are valuable indicators and providers of data. Like all data their existence is valid even if it is provides us with an incorrect judgement on it because failure improves performance.  You entire position and reasoning is in direct conflict with human knowledge on non verbal communication cues. If failure was false data then practise would have zero value but practise is very valuable because we GAIN knowledge from failure not false data. But hey you keep believing and telling us that YOU are a super special ultra unique snowflake.

 

[edit] i forgot to ask this.

 

Why are you still here? You haven't like a Bioware game since what Origins? Bioware clearly has no designs or desire to return to the era of games you liked so why hang around? You constantly ****** into the wind and complain of getting wet. What is the point? Bioware makes games you don't like this has been true for closer to a decade now than not. Bioware is fast approaching the age where they have been making games you don't like for longer than they have been making games you do like, so why stay? I don't like blizzard games. I use to like them but now they makes games I don't like. I don't constantly haunt the Blizzard forum telling them what terrible games they make. Why? because i am not so self absorbed to think I can change their minds. I simply stop supporting Blizzard and I don't even think they make bad games or feel the need to bash them. I simply accept that they now make games I don't subjectively like and moved on.

 

Why do you need to attack Bioware and player who like their games just because you don't like them? Why are you still haunting these boards for so long when obviously you don't like the products Bioware makes now?

[Sylvius the Mad]

The interesting thing is that tone and micro expression all things people use to gather information beyond words spoken have been shown to more more involuntary than not. So you say in an obviously offensive tone "ignore my tone" and blame people for taking offence? How do we know it is offensive because it is a repeatable response that people have so it isn't a single outlier of data. What blows my mind is you are so fraking self absorbed by your own superiority that you honestly think saying "No offence but...[inserting an offensive comment here] " somehow is non offensive. Your tone actually conveys meaning you saying it doesn't doesn't make you magical. Humans convey more information than just their words, you are not so special as to be somehow except from this.

 

If you say something in an offensive tone then you clearly feel that way regardless of the fact that you tell people not to read into your tone. The thing is if you are consciously saying things in an offensive tone even though you don't feel that way then you are paradoxically being offensive because you are going out of your way to upset someone. Our tone is subconscious unless we consciously override it, just like breathing i do it subconsciously but i can consciously speed it up or slow it down or stop it. You can't subconsciously have an offensive tone you don't mean. Now you can be annoyed or angry at someone and suppress that in your tone because of social conventions or because you intellectually realise your anger is misplaced or stems not from their issue but your own. But it is impossible to just magically say something in an offensive tone repeatedly without meaning to.

 

You might think you are a "special snowflake" but this is nothing but ego stroking. It is BS and a pattern of your dismissive attitude of facts that don't support your preferred style of play.

 

Again another false statement. A black person calling another black person the n word can be a sign of affection and familiarity, the source and intent is very much at the heart of things. If one of them said " hey n-word what have you be up too?" The intent and context is very different than  if these same black men said something like "You are just the whiteman's n-word.' Context and intent are very much at the heart of things.  They are not the sole arbiter of what offends and what doesn't but to say the "offensiveness of the word doesn't change" with intent is utterly false.

 

 

There is a reason why humans read micro expressions and tone instinctively because they are valuable indicators and providers of data. Like all data their existence is valid even if it is provides us with an incorrect judgement on it because failure improves performance.  You entire position and reasoning is in direct conflict with human knowledge on non verbal communication cues. If failure was false data then practise would have zero value but practise is very valuable because we GAIN knowledge from failure not false data. But hey you keep believing and telling us that YOU are a super special ultra unique snowflake.

If everyone can do it, and I'm not special, why don't I seem to be able to do it?

 

Also, if I say a thing that isn't perceived as offensive, but someone else says exactly the same thing in the same way and is perceived as offensive, then it wasn't the word that was offensive.  It was the person.  You've just revealed a double standard.

 

I find double standards offensive.

 

I also don't think what I find offensive should matter to you.  Offense is irrelevant.

[edit] i forgot to ask this.

 

Why are you still here? You haven't like a Bioware game since what Origins? Bioware clearly has no designs or desire to return to the era of games you liked so why hang around? You constantly ****** into the wind and complain of getting wet. What is the point? Bioware makes games you don't like this has been true for closer to a decade now than not. Bioware is fast approaching the age where they have been making games you don't like for longer than they have been making games you do like, so why stay? I don't like blizzard games. I use to like them but now they makes games I don't like. I don't constantly haunt the Blizzard forum telling them what terrible games they make. Why? because i am not so self absorbed to think I can change their minds. I simply stop supporting Blizzard and I don't even think they make bad games or feel the need to bash them. I simply accept that they now make games I don't subjectively like and moved on.

 

Why do you need to attack Bioware and player who like their games just because you don't like them? Why are you still haunting these boards for so long when obviously you don't like the products Bioware makes now?

Why do people keep asking this?  It's founded on two baseless assumptions (which also happen to be false, but the greater crime is that they are baseless):

 

1. I don't like BioWare's games anymore.  What?  Inquisition is the best game they've made in over a decade.  I love Inquisition.  Inquisition is BioWare's most recent game.  I've been extremely effusive about that.

 

There is no basis for the conclusion that I don't like BioWare's post-Origins games.  I also happen to like aspects of other post-Origins games.  DA2, for example, has an excellent plot structure that I wish BioWare would use more.  The entire Mass Effect series contains the most innovative and effective implementation of RPG combat through a shooter interface I've ever seen (pause-to-aim is genius).

 

Yes, I think the voiced protagonist is a travesty.  Yes, I think the paraphrasing has been generally awful (but really not bad in DAI).  I would love to be able to mod the games to remove both features (as I can in Fallout 4).

 

But again, that the assumption is false doesn't really matter.  What matters is that you had no reason to make it.

 

2. I'm trying to change BioWare's mind.  Again, no I'm not.  If I were, this wouldn't be the best way to do it.  I don't even think BioWare has particularly strong feelings on these issues one way or the other.  I expect BioWare to make the games they expect people to want to play.  My intended audience here isn't BioWare, and it isn't even the people with whom I'm arguing.  It's the people who read the threads.  They're the gaming public BioWare is trying to serve.  If I can move the margins of opinion within that population, then I indirectly direct BioWare to move in my direction.

 

I'm not trying to change BioWare's mind, or your mind, or anyone specific's mind.  I'm trying to change opinions in the aggregate, which is a far more predictable entity than individuals are.

[10K]

I think the difference is Fallout 4 wheel was very vague most of the time and Bethesda lacks experience. Where as EAware has really gotten better with their dialogue wheels over the course of their games.

[AlleyD]

I modded the dialogue wheel in Fallout 4, it simply didn't work as well with me as having the full text choice available. The addition of VA I really did appreciate, but that may simply be a respect for Courtenay Taylor's VA.

 

The dialogue wheel in Mass Effect worked for me until the streamlining in ME3 removed a key middle option

[txgoldrush]

How about have paraphrasing as good as Life is Strange? that is the most accurate wheel I have seen.

[In Exile]

I modded the dialogue wheel in Fallout 4, it simply didn't work as well with me as having the full text choice available. The addition of VA I really did appreciate, but that may simply be a respect for Courtenay Taylor's VA.

 

The dialogue wheel in Mass Effect worked for me until the streamlining in ME3 removed a key middle option

 

But that's also because the wheel in FO4 is garbage. "Sarcasm" is not a dialogue choice. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

But that's also because the wheel in FO4 is garbage. "Sarcasm" is not a dialogue choice.

I love that removing the paraphrase and the voice were among the earliest mods available.

[AlleyD]

I love that removing the paraphrase and the voice were among the earliest mods available.

 

The option to edit the dialogue wheel are currenlty the most popular mods in Fallout 4. The most downloaded mod in Fallout 4 Nexus is the "Full Dialogue Interface". Over 544,000 downloads. Another popular mod, "NewDialog" , has over 170,000 downloads also works on editing the dialogue wheel. Both these mods are currently nos 1 and 2 in the "most endorsed" listing of Fallout 4 mods, FDI has 26,615 endorsements, ND 22,368.

 

The numbers suggest that allowing the option to choose between a paraphrased dialogue design or full dialogue path may be worth building into the UI of dialogue heavy rpg games.

[Sartoz]

Since we already have a Fallout 4 topic. It dawned on me that Fallout 4 has received quite a lot of backlash ever since it released and had a dialogue wheel both from players and reviewers.

 

I wonder, is there a possibility that Andromeda could also receive criticism for it's dialogue wheel too or will it be ignored because it's mass effect?

 

A lot of the complaints about Fallout 4's dialogue wheel aren't just because it's like Mass Effect's but because of it's implementation. Is it something bio should look at?

                                                                                                  <<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>>

 

The dialogue wheel is there to give the player the illusion of a RPG mechanic. If you go back to ME2, the wheel is split into left and right, where left is info gathering while the right was decision making time.  Notice that ME2 had three choices on the right but in ME3, Bio dumbed it down by removing the neutral (centre) choice (most of the time) and thus gave us two choices.

 

There is nothing wrong with the wheel itself. The response to the choice, however, is where the mechanic fails. The response is like a politician's answer to a question and that's where some of the negativity is directed at (at least in the Bio forums).

 

Bio will make some changes to the dialogue mechanics, I'm sure. They always "improve" by making it worse.

[Sarayne]

But that's also because the wheel in FO4 is garbage. "Sarcasm" is not a dialogue choice. 

"Sarcasm" Is the best choice in FO4 lets be honest here and with the voice of jack its even better.

[Donk]

"Sarcasm" Is the best choice in FO4 lets be honest here and with the voice of jack its even better.

 

Only problem is you just dunno what's gonna come out of her mouth

[Shechinah]

"Sarcasm" Is the best choice in FO4 lets be honest here and with the voice of jack its even better.

 

"Igor! Fetch me the braiiin!"
 

[AlanC9]

If everyone can do it, and I'm not special, why don't I seem to be able to do it?

Are you certain you're not special? On what evidence?

[In Exile]

The option to edit the dialogue wheel are currenlty the most popular mods in Fallout 4. The most downloaded mod in Fallout 4 Nexus is the "Full Dialogue Interface". Over 544,000 downloads. Another popular mod, "NewDialog" , has over 170,000 downloads also works on editing the dialogue wheel. Both these mods are currently nos 1 and 2 in the "most endorsed" listing of Fallout 4 mods, FDI has 26,615 endorsements, ND 22,368.

 

The numbers suggest that allowing the option to choose between a paraphrased dialogue design or full dialogue path may be worth building into the UI of dialogue heavy rpg games.

 

Not really. It's proof that the chosen implementation by Bestheda is awful. It's not proof that the UI is universally desired. Let's use a counter-example. Skyrim UI is an incredibly popular mod - by far the most downloaded. That does not mean that every multiplatform RPG should mimic Skyrim UI.