204 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

It's funny I have the exact opposite conclusion. I felt that Citadel was way too cheesy.

Maybe.  But I'd rather eat cheese than ashes.

[Applepie_Svk]

It's funny I have the exact opposite conclusion. I felt that Citadel was way too cheesy.

 

over 9000

[monochromesky]

over 9000

 Considering all the events in ME3, it needed a bit of light. 

[omgodzilla]

I thought DAO had the perfect balance of darkness and humour. There were some legitimately fucked up moments, like the city elf intro, the broodmother, killing connor, etc. But there was a crap ton of humour as well. The party banter had some of the most hilarious writing I had ever seen in video games. Few games have me made me laugh my ass off like that, but still manage to portray a world that was dark, realistic, and dangerous. I would love it if Bioware went back to that type of world in their future games. 

[Applepie_Svk]

 Considering all the events in ME3, it needed a bit of light. 

bit of light is fine, and there are bits, Citadel was like lake of Wildfire...

[Iakus]

bit of light is fine, and there are bits, Citadel was like lake of Wildfire...

And ME3 was as bitter as the Dead Sea, so...

[monochromesky]

I thought DAO had the perfect balance of darkness and humour. There were some legitimately fucked up moments, like the city elf intro, the broodmother, killing connor, etc. But there was a crap ton of humour as well. The party banter had some of the most hilarious writing I had ever seen in video games. Few games have me made me laugh my ass off like that, but still manage to portray a world that was dark, realistic, and dangerous. I would love it if Bioware went back to that type of world in their future games. 

Oh my god, yeah you're right. DAO was my favourite too. It was gold. The dialogue was the best thing throughout that game.

[monochromesky]

bit of light is fine, and there are bits, Citadel was like lake of Wildfire...

Agree to disagree? I can see where you're coming from though. 

[General TSAR]

BioWare of this day and age can't do either.

[Hazegurl]

I would prefer dark and edgy.  A sense of wonder and foreboding as we explore a new galaxy.  But I'm not sure if BW can pull it off. 

[Joseph Warrick]

*looks at ME3*

*looks at Citadel*

light and goofy please.

Citadel works because we have shared blood, sweat and tears with those characters. They're family by now and there's enough confidence between them to loosen up and act silly. If you remember Wrex in ME1, he was very reserved.

I didn't like the Iron bull or Sera because they're like Citadel characters but without the bonding phase. Strangers joking about and treating me with such familiarity, it's very off-putting.

[Display Name Owner]

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I really liked the tone of ME3. It was serious and a bit dark in places, but it had a good amount of light/funny moments too.

 

Conversely, I cannot stand Citadel's OTT Scooby Doo nonsense, which evidently also places me in the minority. I suspect a lot of people liked it in the context of ME3 which they found too brooding (even though it's far from the darkest and edgiest game out there, I really think people overstate that), but a whole game along the same lines? No please.

 

I feel like 3 had it right, but since the situation isn't so dire in Andromeda it doesn't have to go as dark as 3's darkest. I most definitely don't want anything goofy at all.

[Hazegurl]

@Joseph, That's why the Wicked Grace scene fell flat for me. Only two characters I actually liked was there and only one I felt bonded to on some level.  Citadel was totally about blowing off steam and relaxing with your comrades and just being silly after spending 2-3 games getting to know them.

[vbibbi]

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I really liked the tone of ME3. It was serious and a bit dark in places, but it had a good amount of light/funny moments too.

 

Conversely, I cannot stand Citadel's OTT Scooby Doo nonsense, which evidently also places me in the minority. I suspect a lot of people liked it in the context of ME3 which they found too brooding (even though it's far from the darkest and edgiest game out there, I really think people overstate that), but a whole game along the same lines? No please.

 

I feel like 3 had it right, but since the situation isn't so dire in Andromeda it doesn't have to go as dark as 3's darkest. I most definitely don't want anything goofy at all.

For me, I enjoyed Citadel because it was a relief from the imminent Armageddon which we were helpless to stop. If ME and ME2 had had the same grimdark atmosphere for the majority of the games, then I wouldn't have needed as much of a relief. But because the first two games had much lighter segments mixed in with the dark, it was exhausting to only have dark for most of ME3. Plus, these are characters we've known across three games, and the player knows that we're not going to be with them again, so the meta knowledge makes Citadel more poignant.

 

@Joseph, That's why the Wicked Grace scene fell flat for me. Only two characters I actually liked was there and only one I felt bonded to on some level.  Citadel was totally about blowing off steam and relaxing with your comrades and just being silly after spending 2-3 games getting to know them.

Yeah the Wicked Grace scene felt undeserved and in some playthroughs unrealistic. Wicked Grace in DA2? Yeah, characters mention playing it all the time, the Hanged Man is a big hangout for everyone, the plot is not paced so urgently. But in DAI, most of the companions don't seem like friends as much as colleagues, and the advisors are our employees. It feels like it should have been more like an office party where most people are on good terms with each other, but any group activities are going to be because the boss wants a team building exercise.

[Iakus]

@Joseph, That's why the Wicked Grace scene fell flat for me. Only two characters I actually liked was there and only one I felt bonded to on some level.  Citadel was totally about blowing off steam and relaxing with your comrades and just being silly after spending 2-3 games getting to know them.

By the time the WIcked Grace game came up, I had put in a good fifty hours of the game.  And months had passed in-game.  SO I felt perfectly at ease having such a scene.

 

And why Citadel works so well is because ME3 ends on such a soul-crushingly dark note that a large shot of levity isn't just nice to have, it's NEEDED by a lot of people.

[Han Shot First]

The Citadel was one of my favorite DLCs, but it was mostly in spite of the cheese. A more light-hearted tone from the main game was needed, but they overdid it in a few places. There were some parts of the DLC where it felt more like a Tumblr fan comic than something that actually belonged in the game universe.

 

I also think Bioware got it right in giving the main game a very grim tone. The game was set during an apocalyptic war where billions were dying, so anything less than a dark tone would have been completely out of touch with the story being told. The mistake Bioware made was not with the game's tone, but with the game's ending.

[Joseph Warrick]

There's also the notion that grimdark and edgy (and nipples) equals mature.

 

You get two groups, one of 14-18 year olds and one of 65-80 year olds, and you research which group writes more poems about how the world is dead and their heart is black, alas, woe, woe.

[Vortex13]

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I really liked the tone of ME3. It was serious and a bit dark in places, but it had a good amount of light/funny moments too.

 

Conversely, I cannot stand Citadel's OTT Scooby Doo nonsense, which evidently also places me in the minority. I suspect a lot of people liked it in the context of ME3 which they found too brooding (even though it's far from the darkest and edgiest game out there, I really think people overstate that), but a whole game along the same lines? No please.

 

I feel like 3 had it right, but since the situation isn't so dire in Andromeda it doesn't have to go as dark as 3's darkest. I most definitely don't want anything goofy at all.

 

 

I agree about ME 3 having a good amount of humor. The game was darker and more somber sure, but scenes like the Tail's emergency induction port, or the shooting competition with Garus put a smile on my face. 

 

The problem with the Citadel was that it was way too forced. Garus didn't feel like my buddy in that DLC, he felt like a caricature of Garus; the same for all the other companions. 

[Hazegurl]

Yeah the Wicked Grace scene felt undeserved and in some playthroughs unrealistic. Wicked Grace in DA2? Yeah, characters mention playing it all the time, the Hanged Man is a big hangout for everyone, the plot is not paced so urgently. But in DAI, most of the companions don't seem like friends as much as colleagues, and the advisors are our employees. It feels like it should have been more like an office party where most people are on good terms with each other, but any group activities are going to be because the boss wants a team building exercise.

Right, Wicked Grace sort of pops up out of nowhere in DAI whereas it was a consistent background game in DA2.   I'm almost certain that Varric's entire reason for being in DAI is to give the player a Wicked Grace scene because that's what everyone wanted in DA2.  IMO, BW should have simply realized that the moment had passed and found something else for the player to do with the companions.   Perhaps simply extending the celebrations at the end would have been enough or something.
 

 

By the time the WIcked Grace game came up, I had put in a good fifty hours of the game.  And months had passed in-game.  SO I felt perfectly at ease having such a scene.

 

 For me the scene was just off.  Like some Truman show moment or something where the event was obviously staged just for me.

[Han Shot First]

The Wicked Grace scene was good in concept, it just wasn't executed well. Some of the dialogue is more cheesty than genuinely funny, and the camera cuts of each character awkwardly laughing in turn at some lame joke did it no favors.

[vbibbi]

The Citadel was one of my favorite DLCs, but it was mostly in spite of the cheese. A more light-hearted tone from the main game was needed, but they overdid it in a few places. There were some parts of the DLC where it felt more like a Tumblr fan comic than something that actually belonged in the game universe.
 
I also think Bioware got it right in giving the main game a very grim tone. The game was set during an apocalyptic war where billions were dying, so anything less than a dark tone would have been completely out of touch with the story being told. The mistake Bioware made was not with the game's tone, but with the game's ending.

I think a lot of my issue with the constant darkness in ME3 is that I was frustrated that we weren't better prepared. I don't know why Bio decided we needed to start off the game with every major government with their pants around their ankles when the Reapers arrived. The Protheans were technologically superior to us and they still lost. Why does everyone have to hold the idiot ball in ME2 and 3 to make the war darker? Why couldn't our actions in 2 have helped prepare for the invasion, and our efforts actually believed, since the Reapers are pretty invincible anyway? Then the darkness would have been more reasonable instead of making it look like its our own fault we weren't ready for the Reapers.

[In Exile]

The Citadel was one of my favorite DLCs, but it was mostly in spite of the cheese. A more light-hearted tone from the main game was needed, but they overdid it in a few places. There were some parts of the DLC where it felt more like a Tumblr fan comic than something that actually belonged in the game universe.

I also think Bioware got it right in giving the main game a very grim tone. The game was set during an apocalyptic war where billions were dying, so anything less than a dark tone would have been completely out of touch with the story being told. The mistake Bioware made was not with the game's tone, but with the game's ending.

The game's tone doesn't work. It doesn't work because Shepard is the constantly victorious ubermensch who obliterates hordes of enemies with nary a sweat. You can't tell a story about the genocidal horror of super space nazi robots when the actual game is about an undefeatable ubermensch soldier who essentially doesn't lose.

This is why you get so much resistance to every moment designated as loss - Thane dying, Kai Leng on Thessia, etc.

ME2 got the right tone, and that's the only tone you can have when your protagonist is basically Captain America level superhuman.

RPGs are fundamentally incompatible with dark plots like this, because the PC is typically a demi-god death dealer.

[Applepie_Svk]

I think a lot of my issue with the constant darkness in ME3 is that I was frustrated that we weren't better prepared. I don't know why Bio decided we needed to start off the game with every major government with their pants around their ankles when the Reapers arrived....

 

To deal with **** of different factions is a pattern within the BioWare´s games, at least the Mass Effect and Dragon Age games. The thing that I didn´t like is that we had to deal with some little reaper destroyers instead of big ones like dreadnoughts class, this was realy frustrating that we had to use planetary bombardment to kill one of them and tresher maw on the other one. It was so obvious how much they were trying to push for this godlike narrative for Reapers fighting capability, instead of giving them greater numbers, but at least some fighting chance for our forces on screen. But then all of sudden they´ve decided to give us Leviathan that was cappable to kill a reaper with single thought. Fun was to read all those journals that mentioned different things about fight against the Reapers and even some of their weaknesses.

[Han Shot First]

The game's tone doesn't work. It doesn't work because Shepard is the constantly victorious ubermensch who obliterates hordes of enemies with nary a sweat. You can't tell a story about the genocidal horror of super space nazi robots when the actual game is about an undefeatable ubermensch soldier who essentially doesn't lose.

This is why you get so much resistance to every moment designated as loss - Thane dying, Kai Leng on Thessia, etc.

ME2 got the right tone, and that's the only tone you can have when your protagonist is basically Captain America level superhuman.

RPGs are fundamentally incompatible with dark plots like this, because the PC is typically a demi-god death dealer.

 

I'd argue ME3 had the right tone, but that losses weren't experienced on Shepard's team often enough. If it were up to me the end run would have resulted in galactic civilization being preserved, but not without some cost that hit close to home. Some of Shepard's squadmates should have died in the end run, and based on choices made, potentially Shepard as well.

 

That is also one of my complaints with ME2's suicide mission. As fun as that mission was, I think it would have been better if Shepard suffered some unavoidable casualties on his or her team. The mission fails to live up to the in game hype. 

 

 

vbibbi, on 12 Dec 2015 - 6:07 PM, said:

I think a lot of my issue with the constant darkness in ME3 is that I was frustrated that we weren't better prepared. I don't know why Bio decided we needed to start off the game with every major government with their pants around their ankles when the Reapers arrived. The Protheans were technologically superior to us and they still lost. Why does everyone have to hold the idiot ball in ME2 and 3 to make the war darker? Why couldn't our actions in 2 have helped prepare for the invasion, and our efforts actually believed, since the Reapers are pretty invincible anyway? Then the darkness would have been more reasonable instead of making it look like its our own fault we weren't ready for the Reapers.

 

I think Mass Effect 2 is in large part responsible for that. The Council acknowledging the Reapers' existence in the finale of ME1 was retconned into oblivion to justify Cerberus replacing the Alliance, and the game doesn't end with the galaxy any more prepared for the Reaper War than they were at the end of ME1. All Shepard accomplishes is causing a minor delay in the Reapers' travel plans.

 

Mass Effect 2 is one of my favorite games, but it would work much better as a standalone. As the middle chapter of a trilogy it caused a lot of problems by not really advancing the story.

[Battlebloodmage]

I'd argue ME3 had the right tone, but that losses weren't experienced on Shepard's team often enough. If it were up to me the end run would have resulted in galactic civilization being preserved, but not without some cost that hit close to home. Some of Shepard's squadmates should have died in the end run, and based on choices made, potentially Shepard as well.

 

That is also one of my complaints with ME2's suicide mission. As fun as that mission was, I think it would have been better if Shepard suffered some unavoidable casualties on his or her team. The mission fails to live up to the in game hype. 

I guess Thane is chopped liver.