459 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

First I should admit that what was in my head when I wrote that was Warhammer 40k, a differently set up fictional universe.The main, if not only, argument would be the same reason the melee would have the advantage over the enemy at all; that long guns or other bulky equipment are somewhat unwieldy at that range. There is also something visceral and terrifying about hand to hand or melee combat, particularly when you're trained to fight at range. I know a combat situation may be different, but if you were to walk right up to me and pull a weapon where I couldn't just get away easily, I'd be more scared of a knife than a pistol.

There's also the lack of need for ammunition.

I have hundred shells of steel shot in my bedroom within reach of my 870.

._.

[TheBunz]

You ever hear the saying, never bring a knife to a gun fight?

It's a stupid idea to incorporate swords into a futuristic game. If it worked, the real world would have never invented guns.

[Dalakaar]

You ever hear the saying, never bring a knife to a gun fight?

Only like, 30 times in this thread and every other melee thread. Still sounds as stupid as the first time, amazing that.

[The Real Pearl #2]

I like how the idea of painting the damn katana orange is not something you people ever consider. 

[Puddi III]

If we're going fanciful omni weapons I want a ball and chain.

[The Real Pearl #2]

^^^ +1 for nicki manaj. 

[Han Shot First]

Only like, 30 times in this thread and every other melee thread. Still sounds as stupid as the first time, amazing that.

 

The saying is absolutely true...demonstrably so in fact. All one has to do is point to a multitude of real world battles where armies that were slow to adapt to advances in weaponry and tactics, and continued to favor melee weapons and bayonet charges over fire and maneuver, got skewered by the side who relied on firepower. There is a reason why swords are now only used for ceremonial purposes in modern armies.

 

It would not be plausible for that to change in the Mass Effect universe, where firearms not only still exist but far exceed modern weapons in both stopping power and rate of fire. Body armor should also make swords even more obsolete than they already are. If rounds fired at supersonic speeds by mass accelerators can't pierce armor than some guy swinging an old-timey sword isn't going to have better luck. The former is going to have a much better chance of penetrating armor.

 

Of course if the argument for the inclusion of swords is one based on Rule of Cool, than any argument about realism is irrelevant. Presumably if a person just cites fun as a reason for their inclusion, they either don't care how plausible it is or think its cool enough to suspend disbelief over. Then it just boils down to people quibbling over their personal preferences.

 

Personally I'm for a middle ground. Drop Kai Leng style samurai swords but give Omni tools a blade function. There's plenty of Rule of Cool to go around while maintaining some plausibility within the game's own lore on weapon and armor technology.

 

Having said that...I fully expect old timey swords to make a return. That ship probably sailed with ME3 and a lot of players don't share the same nitpicks and/or just don't care if it's plausible. I realize I'm probably in a minority for finding Kai Leng or the Cerberus phantoms a little lame.

[Lady Artifice]

The saying is absolutely true...demonstrably so in fact. All one has to do is point to a multitude of real world battles where armies that were slow to adapt to advances in weaponry and tactics, and continued to favor melee weapons and bayonet charges over fire and maneuver, got skewered by the side who relied on firepower. There is a reason why swords are now only used for ceremonial purposes in modern armies.

 

It would not be plausible for that to change in the Mass Effect universe, where firearms not only still exist but far exceed modern weapons in both stopping power and rate of fire. Body armor should also make swords even more obsolete than they already are. If rounds fired at supersonic speeds by mass accelerators can't pierce armor than some guy swinging an old-timey sword isn't going to have better luck. The former is going to have a much better change of penetrating armor.

 

Of course if the argument for the inclusion of swords based is one based on Rule of Cool, than any argument about realism is irrelevant. Presumably if a person just cites fun as a reason for their inclusion, they either don't care how plausible it is or think its cool enough to suspend disbelief over. Then it just boils down to people quibbling over their personal preferences.

 

Personally I'm for a middle ground. Drop Kai Leng style samurai swords but give Omni tools a blade function. There's plenty of Rule of Cool to go around while maintaining some plausibility within the game's own lore on weapon and armor technology.

 

Having said that...I fully expect old timey swords to make a return. That ship probably sailed with ME3 and a lot of players don't share the same nitpicks and/or just don't care if it's plausible. I realize I'm probably in a minority for finding Kai Leng or the Cerberus phantoms a little lame.

 

I just like how gracefully they move. 

[Dalakaar]

The saying is absolutely true...demonstrably so in fact.

Melee weapons are outdated.

 

But as I said before...

 

Barriers, Shields, and things like Biotic Charge and Turian's Havoc Strike alter the framework of those otherwise normal circumstances.

 

Also just as an fyi, never once have I used the words "Rule of Cool" to defend melee. I want plausibility. The thing is, melee weapons in the ME:U are entirely plausible given the technology available at the time. And more than plausible, they are already in the game, often and loudly.

 

To be fair I don't want katanas and space ninjas either. I want brutal fast paced melee action.

 

...the funny thing?

 

I already have that in MP. It just needs some work and tuning, and expansion.

 

If rounds fired at supersonic speeds by mass accelerators can't pierce armor than some guy swinging an old-timey sword isn't going to have better luck. The former is going to have a much better change of penetrating armor.

See, that's not necessarily true. And the flaw is that you're presuming I'm talking about an "old-timey sword". As I mentioned earlier, a 1.5m long biotic sword that may as well be a tethered singularity, or a mono-omniblade wielded by a cybernetically enhanced creature would do the same or more damage. You can house a lot more damage capable options in something the size of a sword or a mace than in a bullet...

 

What I find stupid about the saying isn't that it doesn't make sense, it's that it puts every single person who says it in a tiny box they can't seem to get out of in a game that's by it's definition, imaginative. 30 times later it just makes me lol.

 

Again, if you're going to hit up real world parallels, then you're missing the times that defense has trumped offense. Plate mail at it's beginning was virtually impossible to eliminate, that's why everyone started using it. Offense had to keep up, and it did, but there's a lag behind it. Similarly with Ironclads. They were nigh invincible for a while.

 

In the ME:U, they are at the point where a lag like that is entirely plausible, feasible, and already placed in the game.

 

The simple matter is, if you play the game's MP side of things melee is an entirely viable field to work in. And we're talking about that game.

 

Vorcha Light Melee works amazing well on lower levels and is a tonne of fun. Krolords work on all levels if you know how to play em. Turian Havocs have Havoc Charge, a completely melee based option to close with your enemy. (Albeit I find havocs a bit suicidal) Batarians have Blade Armour to repel melee. Cerberus Dragoons and their enlightened cousins the Pheonix Adept/Vanguard have Smash, a biotic ability that is melee ranged and does a trucktonne of damage. They are also equipped with what I would term "Rule of Cool" electrowhipthingamadeelies.

 

Melee can be a primary weapon for many kits and do just fine, but it needs work on it. Even then I'd want a pistol or sidearm to accompany me. Range is necessary under many circumstances, but melee really isn't far fetched. Even as a plausible primary option.

[Puddi III]

Also, omni-

[Han Shot First]

Melee weapons are outdated.

 

But as I said before...

 

Barriers, Shields, and things like Biotic Charge and Turian's Havoc Strike alter the framework of those otherwise normal circumstances.

 

Also just as an fyi, never once have I used the words "Rule of Cool" to defend melee. I want plausibility. The thing is, melee weapons in the ME:U are entirely plausible given the technology available at the time. And more than plausible, they are already in the game, often and loudly.

 

To be fair I don't want katanas and space ninjas either. I want brutal fast paced melee action.

 

...the funny thing?

 

I already have that in MP. It just needs some work and tuning, and expansion.

 

See, that's not necessarily true. And the flaw is that you're presuming I'm talking about an "old-timey sword". As I mentioned earlier, a 1.5m long biotic sword that may as well be a tethered singularity, or a mono-omniblade wielded by a cybernetically enhanced creature would do the same or more damage. You can house a lot more damage capable options in something the size of a sword or a mace than in a bullet...

 

What I find stupid about the saying isn't that it doesn't make sense, it's that it puts every single person who says it in a tiny box they can't seem to get out of in a game that's by it's definition, imaginative. 30 times later it just makes me lol.

 

Again, if you're going to hit up real world parallels, then you're missing the times that defense has trumped offense. Plate mail at it's beginning was virtually impossible to eliminate, that's why everyone started using it. Offense had to keep up, and it did, but there's a lag behind it. Similarly with Ironclads. They were nigh invincible for a while.

 

In the ME:U, they are at the point where a lag like that is entirely plausible, feasible, and already placed in the game.

 

The simple matter is, if you play the game's MP side of things melee is an entirely viable field to work in. And we're talking about that game.

 

Vorcha Light Melee works amazing well on lower levels and is a tonne of fun. Krolords work on all levels if you know how to play em. Turian Havocs have Havoc Charge, a completely melee based option to close with your enemy. (Albeit I find havocs a bit suicidal) Batarians have Blade Armour to repel melee. Cerberus Dragoons and their enlightened cousins the Pheonix Adept/Vanguard have Smash, a biotic ability that is melee ranged and does a trucktonne of damage. They are also equipped with what I would term "Rule of Cool" electrowhipthingamadeelies.

 

Melee can be a primary weapon for many kits and do just fine, but it needs work on it. Even then I'd want a pistol or sidearm to accompany me. Range is necessary under many circumstances, but melee really isn't far fetched. Even as a plausible primary option.

 

Here is the issue I have with a physical sword (maybe that's the better term to use than old timey) made from exotic Sci Fi materials...

 

While that works as a lore-based explanation for why it would be able to pierce body armor, the weapoon still would monopolize the use of the wielder's hands. Anyone using a sword would need to set aside or holster firearms to wield it. Even if the sword can be wielded one-handed, carbines, assault rifles, sub-machine guns and machine-guns can't...or at least they can't where accuracy is a concern. So in order use that sword the person needs to abandon a weapon that is both equally lethal at close quarters and with much greater lethality at range for one which is only useful in close quarters. Even if the sword could pierce body armor the weapon's limited utility would put the wielder at a disadvantage compared to anyone using firearms.

 

That is one of the reasons why I favor the omni tool weapons. They are temporary and situational and not a physical weapon that someone needs to lug around or swap in-and-out, and the use of an omni tool blade wouldn't monopolize the use of the wielder's hands. They don't need to set aside their Lancer or Mattock to use it.

 

Of course the omni tool also falls well into Rule of Cool territory, but everyone's preferences regarding suspension of disbelief and Rule of Cool vary. Part of the issue for me might just be that I don't find them that cool either. I like them well enough in Dragon Age or other fantasy-based games, but I'd rather Mass Effect had a futuristic vibe rather than Sci Fi meets retro medieval.

[Master Warder Z_]

...I'd settle if we got a mini heat hawk.

I mean seriously it would at least fit the niche of futuristic tech as its a axe designed to turn armor into butter and kill whatever is behind said armor.

Plus at the end of the day it's a purely secondary weapon.

[Laughing_Man]

Here is the issue I have with a physical sword (maybe that's the better term to use than old timey) made from exotic Sci Fi materials...

 

Here is another solution that does not require a user to abandon his main weapon for a melee option.

 

This is the retractable knife that is usually concealed under the armor plate of the gauntlet, here is a wiki article.

 

The game is Star Wars: Republic Commando.

 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Here is another solution that does not require a user to abandon his main weapon for a melee option.

 

This is the retractable knife that is usually concealed under the armor plate of the gauntlet, here is a wiki article.

 

The game is Star Wars: Republic Commando.

 

So...the Omni-Blade?

[Master Warder Z_]

So...the Omni-Blade?

A long time ago in a galaxy of pre 2008

[Dalakaar]

Here is the issue I have with a physical sword (maybe that's the better term to use than old timey) made from exotic Sci Fi materials...

 

While that works as a lore-based explanation for why it would be able to pierce body armor, the weapoon still would monopolize the use of the wielder's hands. Anyone using a sword would need to set aside or holster firearms to wield it. Even if the sword can be wielded one-handed, carbines, assault rifles, sub-machine guns and machine-guns can't...or at least they can't where accuracy is a concern. So in order use that sword the person needs to abandon a weapon that is both equally lethal at close quarters and with much greater lethality at range for one which is only useful in close quarters. Even if the sword could pierce body armor the weapon's limited utility would put the wielder at a disadvantage compared to anyone using firearms.

 

That is one of the reasons why I favor the omni tool weapons. They are temporary and situational and not a physical weapon that someone needs to lug around or swap in-and-out, and the use of an omni tool blade wouldn't monopolize the use of the wielder's hands. They don't need to set aside their Lancer or Mattock to use it.

 

Of course the omni tool also falls well into Rule of Cool territory, but everyone's preferences regarding suspension of disbelief and Rule of Cool vary. Part of the issue for me might just be that I don't find them that cool either. I like them well enough in Dragon Age or other fantasy-based games, but I'd rather Mass Effect had a futuristic vibe rather than Sci Fi meets retro medieval.

Swapping in or out really isn't that terrible. You swapped SMG's and Heavy Pistols to deal with shields/barriers and armour in ME2, and that's still useful in ME3. Or utility weapons like the Scorpion/Falcon to deal with Phantoms then switch to the Hurricane for everything else. You'd just be swapping a melee weapon out for a sidearm.

 

Also, it doesn't necessarily have to be a "material" sword. Omni-sword isn't a far stretch. Although I still love the Vorcha omni-claws.

 

 

As a vanguard it wouldn't be far fetched to be using a scoped pistol while your enemy closes on you then when they are positioned well swap your pistol for a beatstick and charge in.

 

So in order use that sword the person needs to abandon a weapon that is both equally lethal at close quarters and with much greater lethality at range for one which is only useful in close quarters.

Melee weapons have the potential to be more damaging than ranged weapons...
Dis guy knows what I'm talking about.

 

Hell you put a blade on a gun and the Krogans don't even bother firing it half the time.

 

Batarians know what I'm talking about too.

 

Heck even Volus are getting in the action courtesy of the Batarians.

[Aimi]

I just want to be able to hit my enemies with shovels, and fish, and fire-axes, and butterfly knives, and large old-timey Scottish infantry blades.

then again maybe there's another game where I can do that

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I just want to be able to hit my enemies with shovels, and fish, and fire-axes, and butterfly knives, and large old-timey Scottish infantry blades.

then again maybe there's another game where I can do that

Like this?

[Aimi]

Like this?

...no?

[Laughing_Man]

So...the Omni-Blade?

 

Yes, only without the unlikely space magic part that keeps a molecule-thin blade from disintegrating at the slightest pressure.

[Master Warder Z_]

Really my main issue with melee over ranged is the Kämpfer scenario. For those that don't know the Kämpfer is a prototype heavy assault mobile suit fielded for operation Rubicon in Gundam's 0080:War in the Pocket.

During the course of its battle against the Gundam it runs dry of ammunition and weaponry and draws its secondary beam saber before charging the Alex Gundam which doesn't even meet its charge it just turns its remaining hand mounted 60mm Vulcan autocannon in its general direction and mows it down mid charge.

The Kämpfer pilot is killed by a hail of gunfire that rend that Titanium alloy like a soda can about a hundred feet from its target.

Due to being on my mobile I can't upload the image however here is a link to said image.

https://www.google.c...wPREAtUW_zav1M:

Ultimately that is my primary gripe about melee in any firearm heavy franchise. It looks cool, it can fit with the setting, but against any serious opposition... Guns win over swords no matter how fancy.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Really my main issue with melee over ranged is the Kämpfer scenario. For those that don't know the Kämpfer is a prototype heavy assault mobile suit fielded for operation Rubicon in Gundam's 0080:War in the Pocket.

During the course of its battle against the Gundam it runs dry of ammunition and weaponry and draws its secondary beam saber before charging the Alex Gundam which doesn't even meet its charge it just turns its remaining hand mounted 60mm Vulcan autocannon in its general direction and mows it down mid charge.

The Kämpfer pilot is killed by a hail of gunfire that rend that Titanium alloy like a soda can about a hundred feet from its target.

Due to being on my mobile I can't upload the image however here is a link to said image.

https://www.google.c...wPREAtUW_zav1M:

Ultimately that is my primary gripe about melee in any firearm heavy franchise. It looks cool, it can fit with the setting, but against any serious opposition... Guns win over swords no matter how fancy.

Since you are using the Gundam franchise, throughout its various series including the timeline you are using there are times where an unit's armor and/or shields are too powerful and make guns ineffective, and end up being destroyed by melee weaponry. 

[Dalakaar]

Really my main issue with melee over ranged is the Kämpfer scenario. For those that don't know the Kämpfer is a prototype heavy assault mobile suit fielded for operation Rubicon in Gundam's 0080:War in the Pocket.

During the course of its battle against the Gundam it runs dry of ammunition and weaponry and draws its secondary beam saber before charging the Alex Gundam which doesn't even meet its charge it just turns its remaining hand mounted 60mm Vulcan autocannon in its general direction and mows it down mid charge.

The Kämpfer pilot is killed by a hail of gunfire that rend that Titanium alloy like a soda can about a hundred feet from its target.

Due to being on my mobile I can't upload the image however here is a link to said image.

https://www.google.c...wPREAtUW_zav1M:

Ultimately that is my primary gripe about melee in any firearm heavy franchise. It looks cool, it can fit with the setting, but against any serious opposition... Guns win over swords no matter how fancy.

Your scenario doesn't take melee options available to ME:U into account. Namely, Biotic Charge, and Shields/Barriers strong enough to withstand incoming fire while you close.

 

***

 

Also on a complete aside, Gundam? You're using Gundam in a discussion for plausibility...

 

Interesting choice there.

[Master Warder Z_]

Since you are using the Gundam franchise, throughout its various series including the timeline you are using there are times where an unit's armor and/or shields are too powerful and make guns ineffective, and end up being destroyed by melee weaponry.

If Your referring to the Gundam alloys in 0079 which render the 120mms pointless? Yes, in some scenario if the defensive measures are too strong to breach regardless the opposition can exploit their sheer invulnerability to employ melee weaponry yes.

But eventually the tech catches up, beam weaponry for example which became increasingly more and more common due to those ultra dense materials CAN penetrate the armor.

But no I'm not using ALL franchises. Thank Christ because there is G Gundam -.-

[Master Warder Z_]

Your scenario doesn't take melee options available to ME:U into account. Namely, Biotic Charge, and Shields/Barriers strong enough to withstand incoming fire while you close.

***

Also on a complete aside, Gundam? You're using Gundam in a discussion for plausibility...

Interesting choice there.

Their a divergent tech level that got fusion power into a level of mastery that you can use it for personal batteries a little over a century after World War Two...so its about like using FO for 'plausibility'.

Also if ME stuck to its own lore then the guns would actually be far more deadly then they are in actual practice and barriers and armor would protect you about as much as Stormtrooper plastoid.

Gameplay divergents to me aren't evidence over actual lore and their explanation of personal shields and barriers.