135 ответов в этой теме

[Qun00]

There are some good arguments against enabling Merril in this pursuit. It can be considered an obsession, which isn't the healthiest way to live.

There's also the fact that this has made her go as far as resorting to blood magic. I personally don't believe in these tales of mages who are satisfied with using their own blood and never go beyond that. No human sacrifices and no demonic deals.

Heck, even something as basic as using blood to boost Merril's power and break a magical barrier made Bethany feel the presence of a demon.

And well, as Dorian puts it, "You always need more". Sooner or later, it will corrupt you.

Now, Hawke's rival dialogue focuses on neither the obsession or the blood magic angle. It's rather about the idea that the mirror is dangerous which is incorrect and agreeing with Marethari's guilt tripping, suicidal plan.

[springacres]

Some of Hawke's dialogue does pick up on the blood magic angle, though I have no idea if it's different between rivalry and friendship since I always rival Merrill.  But there isn't much of it, and unfortunately that's consistent with DA2's handwaving on blood magic in general.

 

I think the problem is that while the mirror may be worth restoring, the methods Merrill is using to try to restore it are misguided at best.

[DebatableBubble]

Nope. I tend not to trust eldritch artifacts.

[thats1evildude]

Yes. Even more so now that I know what they do.

[SgtSteel91]

Yes. IMO Hawke isn't an Elf and therefor has no position to say what Merrill can or cannot do in terms of reclaiming an artifact of her people's past.

 

Also, I think she knows what she is doing and is taking every precaution possible when fixing the Eluvain, save Marethari unleashing the bound Demon.

[ComedicSociopathy]

I support the goal. Just not the method or Merril being the one doing it. 

[straykat]

I support the goal. Just not the method or Merril being the one doing it. 

 

Same.

[springacres]

I support the goal. Just not the method or Merril being the one doing it. 

Agreed about the goal and the method, and that DA2 Merrill shouldn't be the one doing it.  Origins Merrill, maybe.  DA2 Merrill... no.

[AnimalBoy]

Yes i do.

[Dabrikishaw]

As of right now I don't. but only because of Solas.

 

Before Trespasser I used to always have Friendship Merril keep working on the eluvian. I never agreed with Marethari turning Merril into a boogeyman for the rest of her clan to fear and demonize instead of her simply telling Merril off about using blood magic earlier. Now without a clan (because I always kill them), she was free to continue her work.

 

After Trespasser it become another way to help Solas, whom I want to hinder as much as possible. Giving him another functioning eluvian to send spies through is not exactly something I support.

[Qun00]

Well... does it really matter if Solas has 20 eluvians or 19?

[SgtSteel91]

Well... does it really matter if Solas has 20 eluvians or 19?

 

Or that it's in Kirkwall?

[congokong]

I've always felt that either the Dalish should support Merrill in her pursuit or stop bitching about how much history they've lost. Not doing either just makes them martyrs.

 

Personally, it's impossible to make a sound judgment on something fictional like magic without a clear understanding of it. Even Bioware isn't consistent on its rules and boundaries. This includes things like mage freedom. In one instant a mage that gets possessed like Connor can destroy an entire village; the next a whole country ruled by mages instead of them being imprisoned somehow hasn't been overrun by abominations.

 

Regarding prohibiting blood magic use because of the belief that it can never stay ethical, that's similar to prohibiting marijuana use because it's a "gateway drug." Banning something that isn't bad in itself out of fear that it could lead to something that actually is bad seems unjust.

[Qun00]

Blood magic isn't a gateway. It is the very thing.

Demon summoning and human sacrifices aren't the exception to the rule among blood mages. It is the standard way it is done.

Weird how some people treat this as some kind of cruel prejudice and cry for blood mage rights whenever anyone brings up the subject.

[congokong]

Blood magic isn't a gateway. It is the very thing.

Demon summoning and human sacrifices aren't the exception to the rule among blood mages. It is the standard way it is done.

Weird how some people treat this as some kind of cruel prejudice and cry for blood mage rights whenever anyone brings up the subject.

1. Human sacrifices aren't necessary for blood magic. They're just convenient. Did Merrill ever sacrifice anybody?

 

2. The whole demon thing with blood magic has never been really consistent. At times, the lore seems to indicate blood magic can merely mean using blood as raw mana. How are demons involved in that? And then you have cases where blood magic is used supposedly through a demon yet there's no demon in sight. Ex: Merrill taking down that barrier when first meeting her. So I really can't argue this. Like I said, the magic lore isn't consistent in DA; not to mention it's fictional so that isn't surprising.

 

It's also never explained why random mages in the Circle would "turn to blood magic" because Meredith is a tyrant. What does that gain them? I can see an apostate on the run using it to be strong enough to ward off templars, but that often wasn't the case in DA2.

 

3. Merrill's blood magic use has absolutely been argued by characters like Anders and Fenris as being a gateway to the non-benign blood magic use.

[springacres]

I don't think Qun00 meant that demon summoning is necessarily a prerequisite to performing blood magic.  I have yet to see that indicated anywhere in DA lore, actually.  I think what was meant was that, among the peoples of Thedas, there is a pervasive belief that demons are linked to blood magic and that the only way to learn blood magic is by making a deal with a demon.  Anders, in banter with Merrill, hints that this might not necessarily be the case (he asks her at one point whether she simply happened to realize the potential after getting a cut).

 

What the lore does seem to indicate, however, is that in order to learn spells that can be powered by blood, you either have to make a deal with a demon or learn them from another blood mage.  Since blood mages aren't going around publicly advertising themselves as such even in Tevinter (at least according to Fenris, who would know), it's natural that most Thedosians would see someone using blood magic and immediately assume that person had made a deal with a demon.

 

I will grant you the inconsistency with regards to blood magic, however.  In Act 1, Merrill uses her own blood to bring down a barrier, and either Fenris or Anders jumps down her throat about it.  Yet in Best Served Cold, in Act 3, no one comments on Alain using the same method to release whoever his group has taken hostage.  And in Legacy, Hawke must use their blood to release the final seal, plus the Key is clearly linked to Hawke's blood - but most of your companions don't comment on either of those.

 

Most glaring, though, is the fact that Anders - who claims to be against blood magic - can acquire abilities on the Vengeance side of his spec tree that are blood magic in all but name.

 

I, personally, think there's a continuum in here somewhere, with using one's own blood to release restraints at the more benign end and casting spells to enthrall enemies or summon demons at the other end.  I guess my biggest problem with even the benign form of blood magic is that it has a flip side - if blood can release bindings, it implies that blood magic also created those bindings, and if you have to use blood magic to bind something, then maybe you had no business messing with that something in the first place.

 

Which is just a very long way of saying that I still don't agree with Merrill's methods.  Trying to repair an ancient mirror by making a deal with a demon just doesn't sound smart, unless you headcanon that Merrill meant to trick the demon in the end, which doesn't seem believable to me.

[DebatableBubble]

I don't think Qun00 meant that demon summoning is necessarily a prerequisite to performing blood magic. I have yet to see that indicated anywhere in DA lore, actually. I think what was meant was that, among the peoples of Thedas, there is a pervasive belief that demons are linked to blood magic and that the only way to learn blood magic is by making a deal with a demon. Anders, in banter with Merrill, hints that this might not necessarily be the case (he asks her at one point whether she simply happened to realize the potential after getting a cut).

What the lore does seem to indicate, however, is that in order to learn spells that can be powered by blood, you either have to make a deal with a demon or learn them from another blood mage. Since blood mages aren't going around publicly advertising themselves as such even in Tevinter (at least according to Fenris, who would know), it's natural that most Thedosians would see someone using blood magic and immediately assume that person had made a deal with a demon.

I will grant you the inconsistency with regards to blood magic, however. In Act 1, Merrill uses her own blood to bring down a barrier, and either Fenris or Anders jumps down her throat about it. Yet in Best Served Cold, in Act 3, no one comments on Alain using the same method to release whoever his group has taken hostage. And in Legacy, Hawke must use their blood to release the final seal, plus the Key is clearly linked to Hawke's blood - but most of your companions don't comment on either of those.

Most glaring, though, is the fact that Anders - who claims to be against blood magic - can acquire abilities on the Vengeance side of his spec tree that are blood magic in all but name.

I, personally, think there's a continuum in here somewhere, with using one's own blood to release restraints at the more benign end and casting spells to enthrall enemies or summon demons at the other end. I guess my biggest problem with even the benign form of blood magic is that it has a flip side - if blood can release bindings, it implies that blood magic also created those bindings, and if you have to use blood magic to bind something, then maybe you had no business messing with that something in the first place.

Which is just a very long way of saying that I still don't agree with Merrill's methods. Trying to repair an ancient mirror by making a deal with a demon just doesn't sound smart, unless you headcanon that Merrill meant to trick the demon in the end, which doesn't seem believable to me.

See bolded.


Anders is pretty hypocritical though. That's just a sign of how far down the path to the dark side he's gone.

Merrill is also really proud as far as the mirror goes. She's smart enough to treat ALL spirits as dangerous but not so much that she'll consider the possibility that she could screw up royally.

[SgtSteel91]

Merrill is also really proud as far as the mirror goes. She's smart enough to treat ALL spirits as dangerous but not so much that she'll consider the possibility that she could screw up royally.

 

But in the seven years she works on the mirror nothing went wrong. No one, not even her, got Blight sickness even though the shard she used to start making her mirror was previously tainted.

 

And she wants Hawke to come with her when she wants to talk with Audacity after using all other options, to kill her if something went wrong and she got possessed.

[Qun00]

1. Human sacrifices aren't necessary for blood magic. They're just convenient. Did Merrill ever sacrifice anybody?
 
2. The whole demon thing with blood magic has never been really consistent. At times, the lore seems to indicate blood magic can merely mean using blood as raw mana. How are demons involved in that? And then you have cases where blood magic is used supposedly through a demon yet there's no demon in sight. Ex: Merrill taking down that barrier when first meeting her. So I really can't argue this. Like I said, the magic lore isn't consistent in DA; not to mention it's fictional so that isn't surprising.
 
It's also never explained why random mages in the Circle would "turn to blood magic" because Meredith is a tyrant. What does that gain them? I can see an apostate on the run using it to be strong enough to ward off templars, but that often wasn't the case in DA2.
 
3. Merrill's blood magic use has absolutely been argued by characters like Anders and Fenris as being a gateway to the non-benign blood magic use.

The reason why Merril hasn't done it is that the need was small. When the demand is greater, there is only one way blood magic can offer more power.

That's the way it works. There aren't two separate schools of blood magic. Any appearance of moral use never comes from "doing it the good way" but not delving beyond the basics.

As for the involvement of demons, if you want an explanation based on lore you might ask the writers. But it still true that Bethany sensed it when Merril did something as simple as cutting her wrist and breaking a magical barrier.

[springacres]

But in the seven years she works on the mirror nothing went wrong. No one, not even her, got Blight sickness even though the shard she used to start making her mirror was previously tainted.

 

And she wants Hawke to come with her when she wants to talk with Audacity after using all other options, to kill her if something went wrong and she got possessed.

I'll give you that.  The first point actually fits with established DA lore about blood magic being able to inhibit the spread of the Taint (think Avernus in DAO), and the second point proves that Merrill wasn't oblivious to what she was dealing with.

 

However, I still think that even if her motives were good, the way she set about accomplishing her goals was not.  Sure, she was trying to minimize her risk of possession, but demons are wily creatures, and pride demons are exceptionally powerful.  She doesn't seem to have considered that even Hawke might not be able to stop Audacity.

[Qun00]

I'll give you that.  The first point actually fits with established DA lore about blood magic being able to inhibit the spread of the Taint (think Avernus in DAO), and the second point proves that Merrill wasn't oblivious to what she was dealing with.
 
However, I still think that even if her motives were good, the way she set about accomplishing her goals was not.  Sure, she was trying to minimize her risk of possession, but demons are wily creatures, and pride demons are exceptionally powerful.  She doesn't seem to have considered that even Hawke might not be able to stop Audacity.

To be honest, I'm not always sure if Merril acknowledges the risks or not. Sometimes it seems she does, and sometimes she says something like this.

Anders: So, when you first did blood magic, it was... just an accident, right?
Anders: You cut yourself and realized the power? You didn't actually deal with a demon?
Merrill: Oh, no. I did.
Anders: Why would you do that?
Merrill: I needed his help. He was really very nice about it.
Anders: Of course he was! He's using you to get a foothold in a mortal brain!
Merrill: He's a spirit. He offered me his aid. I hardly think you're one to criticize.

[springacres]

Hmm.  I wonder if it took spending 7 years away from her clan to get her to think about what she'd done and that maybe it wasn't such a great idea to make a deal with a demon.

 

To be fair, I don't see her ever deliberately using blood magic to hurt or manipulate anyone as long as she felt she had a choice.  But if it came down to protecting her clan using blood magic because she was out of lyrium, or not protecting them at all... the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[GoldenGail3]

No, i don't. She's better off breaking it in the long run.

[straykat]

I don't see Merrill using blood magic for bad things necessarily.. it's more that blood magic will use her. She directly deals with demons and she doesn't seem to have the willpower to resist them multiple times. The Eluvians are interesting, but it doesn't revolve around her efforts. Especially now that Briala and other plots have come up.

 

On that note, it's kind of sad how little of a role Merrill was relegated to on these things. A freaking City Elf knew more about the Eluvians than she did. And not only that, both Celene and Gaspard get to see beyond it before poor Merrill does. Wtf. And then since they canceled the DA2 expansion because PEOPLE ARE DUMBASSES, Bioware had to rethink the whole Mythal plot and reconfigured it for DAI. That whole quest with the Well of Sorrows was going to be in DA2's add-on. No doubt Merrill would have had a role in it... I bet a similar one as Morrigan or the Inquisitor. /rantoff

[Qun00]

All that said, sometimes it feels like it may be more important to stand with Merril against her clan's hatred. The way Marethari makes all of them believe she is a monster is taking it too far.

I'm sure that Mahariel would be disappointed if he were there to see his own clan mates acting like such fools, even if he wouldn't like to see the mirror that killed Tamlen restored.