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Prove that my theory is wrong - Dragon Age 4 [Elves, spirits, Solas]


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#1
greenbrownblue

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Hey, so I recently created a topic, here is the link http://forum.bioware...rld-has-to-die/

I made a YT vid and I wanted to make another that would explain what were the consequences of elves being connected to spirits (so basically base the next one on the one I already made).

 

However, before I do that I want to make sure that my last theory is free of major mistakes. So I wanted to ask you guys to prove either that my whole theory is wrong, or that certain parts of that theory are wrong. Yup, no saying " you are right" ^^ ! Just "you are wrong, because..."



#2
LightningPoodle

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The theory holds it's weight but it's unlikely to be entirely right. The theory is based heavily on ambiguous content, nothing solid. It could mean something that aligns itself with your theory, or it could mean absolutely nothing. The thing you would need to make this theory stronger is proof that spirits became mortal beings. Cole, as far as we know, was an exception. If there is supporting evidence to say that there are more like Cole, then I think this theory would ultimately be right.



#3
greenbrownblue

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The theory holds it's weight but it's unlikely to be entirely right. The theory is based heavily on ambiguous content, nothing solid. It could mean something that aligns itself with your theory, or it could mean absolutely nothing. The thing you would need to make this theory stronger is proof that spirits became mortal beings. Cole, as far as we know, was an exception. If there is supporting evidence to say that there are more like Cole, then I think this theory would ultimately be right.

Which part do you think that is particularly wrong? I was hoping for some codex entries, banters, dialogues or perhaps some paintings to support your opinion.



#4
LightningPoodle

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Which part do you think that is particularly wrong? I was hoping for some codex entries, banters, dialogues or perhaps some paintings to support your opinion.

 

It's that it's built up entirely of comments, ideas etcetera that aren't actually proof of anything; they're ambiguous. You've pieced it together, which is great. It's a good read and I like it, and would be all for that, but there isn't anything factual there supporting it.



#5
Dai Grepher

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Challenge accepted. I will look into it and post later.


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#6
Gervaise

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Hi there.   Just wanted to say I got your message but for some reason I can't seem to use the messaging service.   By all means use my idea about the wolves.    You can get the original story off the web; just type in Native American wolf story to the search and that should do the trick.


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#7
greenbrownblue

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Challenge accepted. I will look into it and post later.

Thanks a lot! I am waiting :) !


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#8
greenbrownblue

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Hi there.   Just wanted to say I got your message but for some reason I can't seem to use the messaging service.   By all means use my idea about the wolves.    You can get the original story off the web; just type in Native American wolf story to the search and that should do the trick.

Oh :((( ! I already made and uploaded the vid. But I am deffinitely gonna add an annotation and credit you. Thanks a lot, buddy.



#9
Nefla

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I feel that something like this is not true because I believe BioWare is not subtle AT ALL. They beat you over the head with everything to make sure even the most clueless player could easily understand.



#10
greenbrownblue

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I feel that something like this is not true because I believe BioWare is not subtle AT ALL. They beat you over the head with everything to make sure even the most clueless player could easily understand.

Hum, I gotta admit that piecing it all together was difficult, but only because Bioware obviously did not want to spoil too much. Well, but if the theory turns out to be right and Bioware will present it in DA4, then the whole idea is quite easy to understand. Tbh, I think that understanding the nature of a spirit that  in a wrold with the Veil is more difficult than understanding the  nature of a spirit that exists in its original ummm... "environment"... which is a world without the Veil. Perhaps because everybody (Chantry, Dalish, Avvars, Tevinter,etc) has their own definition of spirits/demons and until Solas appeared we really did not know much about them at all.



#11
Dai Grepher

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1. Cole's quotes. "He did not want a body, but she asked him to come. He left a scar when he burned her off his face", and "Bare-faced but free, frolicking, fighting, fierce. He wants to give Wisdom, not orders."

 

It is an assumption that he's talking about Solas and Mythal, but it is a safe assumption. So yes, assuming this isn't just some random 4th wall breaking inserted by BioWare, then he probably is talking about Solas and Mythal. I think the only alternate possibility is Solas and the Spirit of Wisdom, but that's a stretch.

 

You have "Wisdom" capitalized. As I recall, all of Inquisition's text is capitalized. True capital letters in the texts are just larger capitalized letters. No major complaint here, just be sure that "Wisdom" really is capitalized in the text of Cole's sentence. It wouldn't hurt to double-check. If this is "Wisdom" then it is likely talking about Wisdom embodied by a spirit. This could refer to Solas or the Spirit of Wisdom. If it isn't capitalized (meaning a larger capital letter) then Cole is simply saying Solas wished to teach others, not command them.

 

As for what it means, you suspect it could mean that Solas was a spirit. I think this can't be determined just from the statement. If Solas burned Mythal's vallaslin off his face, then he had a body. What this statement could mean is that Solas always had a body, and a body naturally has a spirit, but Solas grew and learned under Mythal's teachings and in time yearned to exist only as a Spirit of Wisdom. He did not want his body. But Mythal asked him to "come", which could mean to follow her direction, or to come to a location. If she wanted him to come to a location, then I would guess she was referring to the real world. So he would have needed the body to exist there in the capacity that Mythal required.

 

But your theory is possible. He may have been a spirit at first, even a Spirit of Wisdom, and then when Mythal asked him to come, he did, by entering the body of one of her slaves. He then burned that Vallaslin off his new body's face, though this probably came much later. I suspect he would have done this once he decided to set out on his own and free all the slaves.

 

The thing that tips this in favor of the theory that he always had a body was his quote to the Inquisitor in Trespasser. "You're Fen'Harel." "I was Solas first. 'Fen'Harel' came later... an insult I took as a badge of pride." So he seems to be saying that he was Solas first, in his original form. But he could be lying, or omitting that he was a spirit before he was Solas. Still, from what we have to work with, he said he was Solas FIRST. Not that he was Solas "before that", or he was first known as Solas. And as I'm sure you know, Solas means pride, not wisdom.

 

The second quote seems to be talking about when he set out to break the chains of his brethren. "Bare-faced but free" implies a negative connotation to being bare-faced. As if having Vallaslin meant protection from harm. Being bare-faced meant vulnerability. Perhaps to possession, or capture to become another evanuris' slave. The "but free" and so on implies that being free and truly alive is a consolation to being bare-faced. My theory is that the Vallaslin indicated a compulsion to whatever evanuris, and while under this compulsion the elves were under protection, but also not in control of their own lives. They could never live as they wanted (frolic), or raise a hand against their master (fight), or act with any degree of passion (fierce). They were chess pieces.

 

Solas wanted to bestow wisdom, like those in the Vir Dirthara had done. He didn't want to lead any kind of revolution. But obviously he had to command his followers to fight since the evanuris would not allow him to exist in freedom and free others from their grip.

 

2. Could spirits be like people? I think that was already proven. Justice can possess Kristof's body and learn what it is to be human. Cole is the same way. It's just a matter of that spirit existing for a long time and thinking beyond their primary directive. For example, Valor might remain as simply Valor for ages. Faith may remain as Faith for ages, even though she was watching Wynne all the time. But some spirits will grow more power and go beyond their primary instinct or aptitude. Only by learning new traits can they become like people. The dialog between Solas and Cole suggests that Solas has never seen a spirit become a person, but the implication is that he knows such a thing is possible. This might be why Cole thinks he heard Solas say he's seen it happen before. Solas didn't say he did, but he probably was thinking of a time when he heard about spirits becoming people. That's what confused Cole. He didn't totally pick up on it.

 

3. Spirits that were more than friends. It sounded to me that Solas said "no" to that.

 

You claim that Solas hinted that before the Veil was created spirits had been "part of the natural world". Could you quote him on this please?

 

If he said that, then he may have just been talking about the natural world as it existed before the Veil. In which case the Fade and real world were merged or intersecting and spirits obviously would have been present. I just don't see how that wouldn't be a painfully obvious statement. Of course spirits were part of the existing world before there was a Veil.

 

4. The balcony scene. I'm not sure this supports your argument. It seems irrelevant to me. Of course bodies have spirits. That doesn't prove one way or the other that Solas began his existence as a spirit without a body or a spirit with a body.

 

I believe Solas' goal here is to determine if a living being not of his ancient world is capable of showing the same spiritual enlightenment as those in his ancient world did, and if so, why? He suspects it might be due to the mark. He believes his ancient elvhen magic might be improving your consciousness somehow. But if not, then it shows he was wrong about all people in the world being like tranquil, or his world's equivalent of it.

 

If the Inquisitor states he or she doesn't think of him or her self as different from anyone else, Solas will slightly disapprove because the statement makes him think that everyone else could have the same potential as the Inquisitor. In which case, what he feels he needs to do will be that much more difficult for him.

 

He doesn't see that wisdom in Cassandra or Leliana because he isn't looking for it in them. My male human mage saw it in Cassandra when he romanced her. Solas is really only looking at the Inquisitor as the example of what the current world has to offer.

 

If you get the other scene, in which you disgust Solas and can possibly punch him, he tells you what he thinks of people in the current era, that they are base, savage, unenlightened, etc., and that the Inquisitor's example has confirmed that he was right about them all along.

 

5. The break-up scene. I think he mentions the spirit because he sees the spirit as what makes the person who they are. He sees it as the core being of the person. And he's right. The spirit is what makes the personality and beliefs of the person. This doesn't have anything to do with the question of if Solas began as a spirit without a body or not.

 

6. I don't think magic involving spirits is forbidden among the Dalish. Just demon summoning as such. As I recall, Spirit Healer calls on benevolent spirits to heal flesh and reinvigorate people. At least it says something like that it the description. Also, they talk about entering Uthenera and Zathrian was fine with summoning the Lady of the Forest. Again, not seeing the relevance to your statement about Solas being a spirit originally.

 

7. Pros and cons of having a body or just being a spirit. The pros of having a body is that it is easier to exist in the real world and understand it. You don't need magic to exist in the real world, nor a thin Veil. You simply exist in the real world without effort. I think it's also easier to grow in spirit. You observe the real world with better understanding, and thus your spirit can imitate it better, and form its own thoughts, beliefs, desires, passions, etc.

 

The downside is that you are also prone to all the real world's ills. Disease, pain, imprisonment, etc. But if you die, at least you still get to exist as a spirit. If you die as a spirit, well... you're screwed. You cease to exist. Oblivion. Finished. Done for. The best you can do is hope your ethereal energies respawn as something similar to what you once were. That is unless you're a powerful spirit, in which case you might be able to hold on to yourself when you are sent back to the Fade.

 

The pros of being a spirit? You won't die of old age. You can experience some things at the speed of thought. The battle in your mind against the Envy demon shows that you can experience long periods of time in an instant. And if you exist for ages on end, you can possibly grow powerful enough to wield a great deal of magic. You can also manipulate the Fade to your will. Thought is your reality.

 

The cons? Nothingness, if you die in the Fade, as I wrote above. Also, depending on your consciousness' skill level, you might be vulnerable to mages who can bind you to their will. You run the risk of having your purpose corrupted. Also, your world is the ever-changing Fade, unless you can somehow manage to press against the Veil and catch glimpses into the real world, or find a place where the Veil is thin, where you might even pass through. But even if you do you won't understand much of the real world. Also, you will mainly exist as one type of spirit. You'll need to think really hard if you want to be more than what you are.

 

Cole tells a necromancer Inquisitor that you are pushing pieces that could become spirits. So it seems the evolution is ethereal energy, clusters of spiritual energy, conscious wisps, observing spirits, Spirits of [Emotion/Ability/Concept/Instinct], stronger version of that particular spirit, aged and learned spirits, powerful and intelligent spirits, developed consciousness spirits (like those in the real world), and then perhaps spirits that can manifest in the real world.

 

I think the spirits in Trespasser were body spirits at first, and then died, went to the Fade (or Uthenera), and have awakened in Trespasser to protect the temples.

 

8. Solas means pride, but not pride demon. It's possible that Solas is like a pride demon, and his wolf depiction looks similar in some ways, but I wouldn't say that his name automatically makes him like a pride demon. Also, Wisdom becoming a pride demon doesn't necessarily mean all Spirits of Wisdom that get twisted from purpose will always become pride demons. But I will admit that wisdom's closest negative does seem to be pride. If you think you know best, you are likely to become prideful or arrogant. But you might also become envious of what others have, or seeing stupidity in others might turn you to rage. Like how the Qunari anger Solas.

 

9. I doubt Solas and his real body are in danger of becoming a pride demon. I think he's just saying that he will have to do many awful things. Get his hands bloody again.

 

10. A demon is that wish/purpose gone wrong? I think Solas is just using one example of how a spirit can become a demon and applying it to all demons. We know that demons can manifest themselves as such right from the start. Wisps can attack you in the Fade, and there are plenty of demons in the Fade naturally. The Forbidden Ones Gaxkang and Imshael take human forms, but can turn into demons. In all honesty, demon forms are among the strongest or most harmful to opponents. However, Solas' comment could be taken to mean that a spirit wishes to enter the real world and coexist peacefully, while a demon wishes to possess the living or even a corpse.

 

11. Not sure what you're claiming here. Are you saying that Solas is like Anders and Vengeance in that he has his own spirit as well as another spirit inside him? Because the Inquisitor can ask him in Trespasser if he is like Flemeth, and how she carries a piece of Mythal. Solas says no, that he is the full deal.

 

12. You say Cole's dialogue with Solas proves that Solas began as a spirit. Can you provide the context of this? Is Cole on the human path for this dialogue, or the spirit path?

 

As for proving anything, Cole might just be saying that Solas envies Cole for finding his happy place. Meaning, he is finding happiness in the path he is on. In any case, Solas saying he is not a spirit seems to be proof against your theory. Solas seems himself as a real world being. But this could play into what I wrote before about Solas wanting to just be a spirit dedicated to one purpose instead of a real world being.

 

13. Fen'Harel came later. Nothing Solas said in that statement implies that Fen'Harel was anything other than a title. Not unlike "Inquisitor". He also confirms that others bestowed it on him as an insult.

 

14. I don't think your theory explains why the current world has to die. Even if Solas began as a spirit and then entered a body, that wouldn't explain why bodies have to burn in raw chaos for the elvhen to return.

 

15. Wynne confirms that a spirit does not ensure immortality. The Spirit of Faith was losing power gradually. I think the immortality of the elves was due to the Fade magic they were drawing on. It had nothing to do with being connected to spirits.

 

16. One more important find. I think Cole is only sensing that Solas is a dreamwalker. His spirit can exist in the Fade with little effort, but that doesn't mean he doesn't also have a body. Cole acknowledges that Solas exists in the real world too. Ultimately I think this was just foreshadowing to how Solas is an elvhen who existed in the Crossroads dimension most of his life.

 

17. Regarding your video. I saw Cole's comment about Solas wanting to give wisdom, and it looks like the "W" is the same height as the rest of the word. Which means this was a small case "w". It reads "wisdom", not "Wisdom". Granted, Cole could still be saying that Solas wanted to be a Spirit of Wisdom, but he could just be saying that Solas wanted to be a spirit who dispensed wisdom at times and perhaps went off to frolic at other times. In other words, not a Spirit of Wisdom, but a regular conscious spirit. It's also possible he's referring to Solas when he began leading his army. He wanted to give them wisdom, not orders. So he would have been in physical form by this point, if it hadn't been from the beginning.

 

Next, at about 3:20 you speculate that the elf became Solas when he created the Veil. But Solas' testimony contradicts this. He said that he was Solas, and then Fen'Harel came later when he was freeing other elvhen from the would-be gods. It was after all this that he says he formed the Veil.

 

Again, a spirit does become a demon when twisted against its purpose, but this isn't how all demons are made. Some form as demons naturally. As Solas even admits to Cole, the choice of being spirit or demon is ultimately up to them. Xebenkeck, referenced in the Vir Dirthara, abandoned mortal form and went to the furthest reaches of the Fade. Xebenkeck is a demon. Imshael is in human form, and he considers himself a Spirit of Choice, but he's really a demon too, and he can turn into demon forms at will. No one twisted him into becoming a demon. Just saying, don't take the "twisted spirit" option as being the only way for a demon to be created. Lots of spirits choose to be demons.

 

I think the game implies that Solas became weak because he used his energy up to set the Veil over Elvhenan, and then went to sleep for millennia to regain some energy and keep his body from dying. Then when he awoke he was in a world almost completely cut off from the Fade, and could not unlock the orb that had been gathering magic for thousands of years. I didn't see or hear anything in the video that supported the idea that Solas became weak because of the guilt he felt in destroying the world of the elvhen.

 

As for his quote about "in another world", this is just referring to the fact that he must see his plan through to destroy this world, and the romanced Inquisitor along with it. He knows that he can't have the female Dalish Inquisitor AND his old world. He is saying that if he and her were in his world already, then it would be possible. But she can't be part of his world. The world of the ancient elvhen.

 

I don't think Solas cares to sever the elves from the evanuris worship. He tells the Inquisitor that if he had reclaimed the orb he would have used it to enter the Fade and tear down the Veil. The Inquisitor points out that doing so would have released the evanuris. Solas replies "I had plans". Those plans could not have involved convincing elves to stop worshipping the evanuris, because by then it would be too late to cut off the evanuris' "power supply" of prayers. And if cutting off all prayers makes the evanuris immediately weak, then tearing down the Veil and killing all elves in the raw chaos would have served the same purpose, just as it would right now if Solas were to tear down the Veil.

 

I have a suggestion for you. If you want some evidence for your theory, look up Sigrid Guldsdotten from the Jaws of Hakkon DLC. Try to find her conversation with Solas in the party. She makes an interesting implication about those mortals who hold on to spirits. Solas gives a passive "fair enough, but..." comments, as if he realizes that she just found him out and he wants to move off of that topic. Sigrid is a mage from Stone-bear Hold who allowed a spirit into herself, and then did not want to do the ritual to free it, and the spirit also did not want to leave her if she didn't want it to.

 

If you recruit her as an agent while she remains merged with the spirit, you can possibly send her on a chore table mission that results in her impressing some senior mages with her magical skills. Meaning, having a Fade spirit inside of her makes even an apprentice level mage equal to or greater than even the most learned mages.

 

So is this what's happening with Solas as well, or is he just an ancient mage connected to ancient magic, like Corypheus was?



#12
Patchwork

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"He did not want a body, but she asked him to come. He left a scar when he burned her off his face", and "Bare-faced but free, frolicking, fighting, fierce. He wants to give Wisdom, not orders."

 

Another interpretation of this could be that if we assume that The Forgotten Ones and The Forbidden Ones are part of the same group, and imo they are, then like them Solas could have cast off his physical body and chose to exist solely as a spirit "he wants to give wisdom, not orders." And this event is were the belief that he was a friend of the Forgotten Ones comes from.

 

But then Mythal asked him to return but as he was returning she placed her vallaslin on his body and for a time she did control him, Solas' opinions on the Qun and the Well seem rooted in something personal and this could be it, but eventually he threw off her binding "He left a scar when he burned her off his face". 

 

My point here is that we don't have many facts and what we do know is ambiguous enough to be seen in many ways. I like your theory though and I hope at least some of it pans out. 



#13
greenbrownblue

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Another interpretation of this could be that if we assume that The Forgotten Ones and The Forbidden Ones are part of the same group, and imo they are, then like them Solas could have cast off his physical body and chose to exist solely as a spirit "he wants to give wisdom, not orders." And this event is were the belief that he was a friend of the Forgotten Ones comes from.

 

But then Mythal asked him to return but as he was returning she placed her vallaslin on his body and for a time she did control him, Solas' opinions on the Qun and the Well seem rooted in something personal and this could be it, but eventually he threw off her binding "He left a scar when he burned her off his face". 

 

My point here is that we don't have many facts and what we do know is ambiguous enough to be seen in many ways. I like your theory though and I hope at least some of it pans out. 

Hum, I thought it was already confirmed that Forgotten Ones = The Forbidden Ones. The DA wikia says so if I remember correctly. Anyway, the idea that Solas is a Forgotten One is super interesting, but there are many things that do not work here. Wisdom could not be among the Forgotten Ones, because they were the maligned aspect of the pantheon. Moreover, if Cole by "asked him to come" meant "ordered him to come" then it makes sense that Mythal  could force someone marked with Vallaslin to do something.

Let's assume you are right though. Fen'Harel was a Forgotten One who did not flee in the time of graetest need ("he did not want a body, but she asked him to come"). If that time was the war with the titans, then maaaaybe the mural showing a titan and Solas could make more sense. The spirit side (on the left) and the body side (on the right), only the two pieces combined (see what both Solases hold in their hands) could destroy a titan:

p69s31T.jpg
There is also a story about Anaris (the Forgotten One) wanting to kill Fen'Harel for betraying  the Forgotten Ones:
In the story, Fen'Harel was captured by the hunting goddess, Andruil. He had angered her by hunting the halla without her blessing, and she tied him to a tree and declared that he would have to serve in her bed for a year and a day to pay her back. But as she made camp that night, the dark god Anaris found them, and Anaris swore that he would kill Fen'Harel for crimes against the Forgotten Ones. Andruil and Anaris decided that they would duel for the right to claim Fen'Harel.

 

Btw, the funny part of the above story s that Solas was suppesed to become a sex slave, lol.

 

Anyway, if Mythal marked Solas/Fen'Harel to control him after he came to Mythal, the Vallaslin would be on the mural. So it is possible that Solas abandoned the Forgotten ones in their plan to flee, but it is unlikely that after he came to Mythal, she marked him with Vallaslin. Cole says that his Vallaslin were removed, not bestowed upon him.

 

Now, about "he wants to give Wisdom, not orders".... The full sentence is "Bare-faced but free, frolicking, fighting, fierce. He wants to give Wisdom, not orders." Cole says  that Inquis is bare-faced if her Vallaslin is removed, so we can be sure that Solas had once slave markings on him. Cole says that he was fighting. We already know that he was fighting with the evanuris - the fake gods. If you enter "Solas sanctuary" it is said that Fen'Harel "he leads only those who would help willingly.", "Let none be beholden but by choice". That's why Cole said "he wants to give Wisdom, not orders".



#14
greenbrownblue

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1. Cole's quotes. "He did not want a body, but she asked him to come. He left a scar when he burned her off his face", and "Bare-faced but free, frolicking, fighting, fierce. He wants to give Wisdom, not orders."

 

It is an assumption that he's talking about Solas and Mythal, but it is a safe assumption. So yes, assuming this isn't just some random 4th wall breaking inserted by BioWare, then he probably is talking about Solas and Mythal. I think the only alternate possibility is Solas and the Spirit of Wisdom, but that's a stretch.

 

You have "Wisdom" capitalized. As I recall, all of Inquisition's text is capitalized. True capital letters in the texts are just larger capitalized letters. No major complaint here, just be sure that "Wisdom" really is capitalized in the text of Cole's sentence. It wouldn't hurt to double-check. If this is "Wisdom" then it is likely talking about Wisdom embodied by a spirit. This could refer to Solas or the Spirit of Wisdom. If it isn't capitalized (meaning a larger capital letter) then Cole is simply saying Solas wished to teach others, not command them.

 

As for what it means, you suspect it could mean that Solas was a spirit. I think this can't be determined just from the statement. If Solas burned Mythal's vallaslin off his face, then he had a body. What this statement could mean is that Solas always had a body, and a body naturally has a spirit, but Solas grew and learned under Mythal's teachings and in time yearned to exist only as a Spirit of Wisdom. He did not want his body. But Mythal asked him to "come", which could mean to follow her direction, or to come to a location. If she wanted him to come to a location, then I would guess she was referring to the real world. So he would have needed the body to exist there in the capacity that Mythal required.

 

But your theory is possible. He may have been a spirit at first, even a Spirit of Wisdom, and then when Mythal asked him to come, he did, by entering the body of one of her slaves. He then burned that Vallaslin off his new body's face, though this probably came much later. I suspect he would have done this once he decided to set out on his own and free all the slaves.

 

The thing that tips this in favor of the theory that he always had a body was his quote to the Inquisitor in Trespasser. "You're Fen'Harel." "I was Solas first. 'Fen'Harel' came later... an insult I took as a badge of pride." So he seems to be saying that he was Solas first, in his original form. But he could be lying, or omitting that he was a spirit before he was Solas. Still, from what we have to work with, he said he was Solas FIRST. Not that he was Solas "before that", or he was first known as Solas. And as I'm sure you know, Solas means pride, not wisdom.

 

The second quote seems to be talking about when he set out to break the chains of his brethren. "Bare-faced but free" implies a negative connotation to being bare-faced. As if having Vallaslin meant protection from harm. Being bare-faced meant vulnerability. Perhaps to possession, or capture to become another evanuris' slave. The "but free" and so on implies that being free and truly alive is a consolation to being bare-faced. My theory is that the Vallaslin indicated a compulsion to whatever evanuris, and while under this compulsion the elves were under protection, but also not in control of their own lives. They could never live as they wanted (frolic), or raise a hand against their master (fight), or act with any degree of passion (fierce). They were chess pieces.

 

Solas wanted to bestow wisdom, like those in the Vir Dirthara had done. He didn't want to lead any kind of revolution. But obviously he had to command his followers to fight since the evanuris would not allow him to exist in freedom and free others from their grip.

 

2. Could spirits be like people? I think that was already proven. Justice can possess Kristof's body and learn what it is to be human. Cole is the same way. It's just a matter of that spirit existing for a long time and thinking beyond their primary directive. For example, Valor might remain as simply Valor for ages. Faith may remain as Faith for ages, even though she was watching Wynne all the time. But some spirits will grow more power and go beyond their primary instinct or aptitude. Only by learning new traits can they become like people. The dialog between Solas and Cole suggests that Solas has never seen a spirit become a person, but the implication is that he knows such a thing is possible. This might be why Cole thinks he heard Solas say he's seen it happen before. Solas didn't say he did, but he probably was thinking of a time when he heard about spirits becoming people. That's what confused Cole. He didn't totally pick up on it.

 

3. Spirits that were more than friends. It sounded to me that Solas said "no" to that.

 

You claim that Solas hinted that before the Veil was created spirits had been "part of the natural world". Could you quote him on this please?

 

If he said that, then he may have just been talking about the natural world as it existed before the Veil. In which case the Fade and real world were merged or intersecting and spirits obviously would have been present. I just don't see how that wouldn't be a painfully obvious statement. Of course spirits were part of the existing world before there was a Veil.

 

4. The balcony scene. I'm not sure this supports your argument. It seems irrelevant to me. Of course bodies have spirits. That doesn't prove one way or the other that Solas began his existence as a spirit without a body or a spirit with a body.

 

I believe Solas' goal here is to determine if a living being not of his ancient world is capable of showing the same spiritual enlightenment as those in his ancient world did, and if so, why? He suspects it might be due to the mark. He believes his ancient elvhen magic might be improving your consciousness somehow. But if not, then it shows he was wrong about all people in the world being like tranquil, or his world's equivalent of it.

 

If the Inquisitor states he or she doesn't think of him or her self as different from anyone else, Solas will slightly disapprove because the statement makes him think that everyone else could have the same potential as the Inquisitor. In which case, what he feels he needs to do will be that much more difficult for him.

 

He doesn't see that wisdom in Cassandra or Leliana because he isn't looking for it in them. My male human mage saw it in Cassandra when he romanced her. Solas is really only looking at the Inquisitor as the example of what the current world has to offer.

 

If you get the other scene, in which you disgust Solas and can possibly punch him, he tells you what he thinks of people in the current era, that they are base, savage, unenlightened, etc., and that the Inquisitor's example has confirmed that he was right about them all along.

 

5. The break-up scene. I think he mentions the spirit because he sees the spirit as what makes the person who they are. He sees it as the core being of the person. And he's right. The spirit is what makes the personality and beliefs of the person. This doesn't have anything to do with the question of if Solas began as a spirit without a body or not.

 

6. I don't think magic involving spirits is forbidden among the Dalish. Just demon summoning as such. As I recall, Spirit Healer calls on benevolent spirits to heal flesh and reinvigorate people. At least it says something like that it the description. Also, they talk about entering Uthenera and Zathrian was fine with summoning the Lady of the Forest. Again, not seeing the relevance to your statement about Solas being a spirit originally.

 

7. Pros and cons of having a body or just being a spirit. The pros of having a body is that it is easier to exist in the real world and understand it. You don't need magic to exist in the real world, nor a thin Veil. You simply exist in the real world without effort. I think it's also easier to grow in spirit. You observe the real world with better understanding, and thus your spirit can imitate it better, and form its own thoughts, beliefs, desires, passions, etc.

 

The downside is that you are also prone to all the real world's ills. Disease, pain, imprisonment, etc. But if you die, at least you still get to exist as a spirit. If you die as a spirit, well... you're screwed. You cease to exist. Oblivion. Finished. Done for. The best you can do is hope your ethereal energies respawn as something similar to what you once were. That is unless you're a powerful spirit, in which case you might be able to hold on to yourself when you are sent back to the Fade.

 

The pros of being a spirit? You won't die of old age. You can experience some things at the speed of thought. The battle in your mind against the Envy demon shows that you can experience long periods of time in an instant. And if you exist for ages on end, you can possibly grow powerful enough to wield a great deal of magic. You can also manipulate the Fade to your will. Thought is your reality.

 

The cons? Nothingness, if you die in the Fade, as I wrote above. Also, depending on your consciousness' skill level, you might be vulnerable to mages who can bind you to their will. You run the risk of having your purpose corrupted. Also, your world is the ever-changing Fade, unless you can somehow manage to press against the Veil and catch glimpses into the real world, or find a place where the Veil is thin, where you might even pass through. But even if you do you won't understand much of the real world. Also, you will mainly exist as one type of spirit. You'll need to think really hard if you want to be more than what you are.

 

Cole tells a necromancer Inquisitor that you are pushing pieces that could become spirits. So it seems the evolution is ethereal energy, clusters of spiritual energy, conscious wisps, observing spirits, Spirits of [Emotion/Ability/Concept/Instinct], stronger version of that particular spirit, aged and learned spirits, powerful and intelligent spirits, developed consciousness spirits (like those in the real world), and then perhaps spirits that can manifest in the real world.

 

I think the spirits in Trespasser were body spirits at first, and then died, went to the Fade (or Uthenera), and have awakened in Trespasser to protect the temples.

 

8. Solas means pride, but not pride demon. It's possible that Solas is like a pride demon, and his wolf depiction looks similar in some ways, but I wouldn't say that his name automatically makes him like a pride demon. Also, Wisdom becoming a pride demon doesn't necessarily mean all Spirits of Wisdom that get twisted from purpose will always become pride demons. But I will admit that wisdom's closest negative does seem to be pride. If you think you know best, you are likely to become prideful or arrogant. But you might also become envious of what others have, or seeing stupidity in others might turn you to rage. Like how the Qunari anger Solas.

 

9. I doubt Solas and his real body are in danger of becoming a pride demon. I think he's just saying that he will have to do many awful things. Get his hands bloody again.

 

10. A demon is that wish/purpose gone wrong? I think Solas is just using one example of how a spirit can become a demon and applying it to all demons. We know that demons can manifest themselves as such right from the start. Wisps can attack you in the Fade, and there are plenty of demons in the Fade naturally. The Forbidden Ones Gaxkang and Imshael take human forms, but can turn into demons. In all honesty, demon forms are among the strongest or most harmful to opponents. However, Solas' comment could be taken to mean that a spirit wishes to enter the real world and coexist peacefully, while a demon wishes to possess the living or even a corpse.

 

11. Not sure what you're claiming here. Are you saying that Solas is like Anders and Vengeance in that he has his own spirit as well as another spirit inside him? Because the Inquisitor can ask him in Trespasser if he is like Flemeth, and how she carries a piece of Mythal. Solas says no, that he is the full deal.

 

12. You say Cole's dialogue with Solas proves that Solas began as a spirit. Can you provide the context of this? Is Cole on the human path for this dialogue, or the spirit path?

 

As for proving anything, Cole might just be saying that Solas envies Cole for finding his happy place. Meaning, he is finding happiness in the path he is on. In any case, Solas saying he is not a spirit seems to be proof against your theory. Solas seems himself as a real world being. But this could play into what I wrote before about Solas wanting to just be a spirit dedicated to one purpose instead of a real world being.

 

13. Fen'Harel came later. Nothing Solas said in that statement implies that Fen'Harel was anything other than a title. Not unlike "Inquisitor". He also confirms that others bestowed it on him as an insult.

 

14. I don't think your theory explains why the current world has to die. Even if Solas began as a spirit and then entered a body, that wouldn't explain why bodies have to burn in raw chaos for the elvhen to return.

 

15. Wynne confirms that a spirit does not ensure immortality. The Spirit of Faith was losing power gradually. I think the immortality of the elves was due to the Fade magic they were drawing on. It had nothing to do with being connected to spirits.

 

16. One more important find. I think Cole is only sensing that Solas is a dreamwalker. His spirit can exist in the Fade with little effort, but that doesn't mean he doesn't also have a body. Cole acknowledges that Solas exists in the real world too. Ultimately I think this was just foreshadowing to how Solas is an elvhen who existed in the Crossroads dimension most of his life.

 

17. Regarding your video. I saw Cole's comment about Solas wanting to give wisdom, and it looks like the "W" is the same height as the rest of the word. Which means this was a small case "w". It reads "wisdom", not "Wisdom". Granted, Cole could still be saying that Solas wanted to be a Spirit of Wisdom, but he could just be saying that Solas wanted to be a spirit who dispensed wisdom at times and perhaps went off to frolic at other times. In other words, not a Spirit of Wisdom, but a regular conscious spirit. It's also possible he's referring to Solas when he began leading his army. He wanted to give them wisdom, not orders. So he would have been in physical form by this point, if it hadn't been from the beginning.

 

Next, at about 3:20 you speculate that the elf became Solas when he created the Veil. But Solas' testimony contradicts this. He said that he was Solas, and then Fen'Harel came later when he was freeing other elvhen from the would-be gods. It was after all this that he says he formed the Veil.

 

Again, a spirit does become a demon when twisted against its purpose, but this isn't how all demons are made. Some form as demons naturally. As Solas even admits to Cole, the choice of being spirit or demon is ultimately up to them. Xebenkeck, referenced in the Vir Dirthara, abandoned mortal form and went to the furthest reaches of the Fade. Xebenkeck is a demon. Imshael is in human form, and he considers himself a Spirit of Choice, but he's really a demon too, and he can turn into demon forms at will. No one twisted him into becoming a demon. Just saying, don't take the "twisted spirit" option as being the only way for a demon to be created. Lots of spirits choose to be demons.

 

I think the game implies that Solas became weak because he used his energy up to set the Veil over Elvhenan, and then went to sleep for millennia to regain some energy and keep his body from dying. Then when he awoke he was in a world almost completely cut off from the Fade, and could not unlock the orb that had been gathering magic for thousands of years. I didn't see or hear anything in the video that supported the idea that Solas became weak because of the guilt he felt in destroying the world of the elvhen.

 

As for his quote about "in another world", this is just referring to the fact that he must see his plan through to destroy this world, and the romanced Inquisitor along with it. He knows that he can't have the female Dalish Inquisitor AND his old world. He is saying that if he and her were in his world already, then it would be possible. But she can't be part of his world. The world of the ancient elvhen.

 

I don't think Solas cares to sever the elves from the evanuris worship. He tells the Inquisitor that if he had reclaimed the orb he would have used it to enter the Fade and tear down the Veil. The Inquisitor points out that doing so would have released the evanuris. Solas replies "I had plans". Those plans could not have involved convincing elves to stop worshipping the evanuris, because by then it would be too late to cut off the evanuris' "power supply" of prayers. And if cutting off all prayers makes the evanuris immediately weak, then tearing down the Veil and killing all elves in the raw chaos would have served the same purpose, just as it would right now if Solas were to tear down the Veil.

 

I have a suggestion for you. If you want some evidence for your theory, look up Sigrid Guldsdotten from the Jaws of Hakkon DLC. Try to find her conversation with Solas in the party. She makes an interesting implication about those mortals who hold on to spirits. Solas gives a passive "fair enough, but..." comments, as if he realizes that she just found him out and he wants to move off of that topic. Sigrid is a mage from Stone-bear Hold who allowed a spirit into herself, and then did not want to do the ritual to free it, and the spirit also did not want to leave her if she didn't want it to.

 

If you recruit her as an agent while she remains merged with the spirit, you can possibly send her on a chore table mission that results in her impressing some senior mages with her magical skills. Meaning, having a Fade spirit inside of her makes even an apprentice level mage equal to or greater than even the most learned mages.

 

So is this what's happening with Solas as well, or is he just an ancient mage connected to ancient magic, like Corypheus was?

1. Remember that Solas says that the Chnatry declares that spirits are not truly people, because they do not have a body. Solas disagrees. Imo, a  spirit does not need a body to have a Vallaslin bestowed upon him "Is Cassandra defined by her cheekbones and not her faith, is Varric defined by his chest hari and not his wit?".

In the vid I analyse both scenarios : "Solas was first and the spirit came later" and "Solas was a spirit to whom the body was given by Mythal". I will not choose which scenario is the right one until I think of better proves.

 

2. I know which dialogue you are referring to. Let''s analyse it:

Solas: How do you feel, Cole, now that you dealt with the Templar? [Inquisitor chooses to make Cole more Human]

Cole: I don't know. He hurt me... hurt the real Cole. I'm angry at him. 

Cole: I can't let that go. I have to become more, let it make me real. [If a spirit endures the pain, learns how to deal with emotions instead of cleaning itself from the bad memory, then it becomes more like a person. It is what Solas is doing. When his spirit friend was passiving away, she said that Solas "must endure"]

Solas: You may well become fully human, after all. I never thought to see it.

Cole: When did you see it before? [Cole senses that Solas saw other spirits becoming more human]

Solas: I did not say that I had. [Solas does not negate, he just said he did not say he did. And we know he did because he also knew that if Cole was to remain a spirit he had to forgive the templar]

Cole: No, you didn't. It's harder to hear, sometimes. Sorry.

Solas: Good luck, Cole. You have taken a difficult road. [The road that Solas has taken too and knows that is a difficult one. He saw at least one spirit becoming human - himself ]

 

3. Here is the quote: 

"Imagine if spirits were not a rarity but a part of our natural world like... a fast-flowing river. Yes, it can drown careless children, but it can also carry a merchant's goods or grind a miller's flour. That is what the world could be if the Veil were not present. For better or worse."

 

It clearly means that spirits can be good or bad, like a river. Like poeple.

 

4.&5. The balcony scene and the break up scene served as a proof that spirits can sense each other and that a body can be tied to a spirit, like the orb did - like elves could. I will add an annotation to the vid, because maybe I did not explain it clearly enough.

6. Quote from DA wikia: "Dalish do not use any magic involving spirits, as they believe all spirits are dangerous."

 

7. You are seeing pros and cons of having a body in the world with a Veil. But what about the world with no Veil?


8.. At the end of the vid, I included a tale of two wolves. It fits the theory that by becoming more human and evil (enduring pain, dealing with emotions - especially if he plans to murder countless ppl) Fen'Harel becomes more like a human - Solas (Pride). By focusing on his purpose (spreading knowledge) he becomes more like a spirit - Wisdom. Methaphorically thinking, it makes sense that his name is Solas and his spirit is Wisdom.

9. I do agree with you on that one. Though, I would not dismiss this theory entirely because we have already seen countless examples of people turning into demons. But as Solas said, a spirit adapts. If you want it to become pride, it will adapt, but it becomes twisted.

 

10. Sorry, but I do not understand how it proves my theory wrong. Remember that I am talking about a world that was not affected by the Veil. If Veil did not exist, then demons would be among the living.

 

11. Inquis only asks "Are you a fragment of what a Fen'Harel once was, like Mythal" and Solas answers "No, this is all I have ever been". We gotta remember that Mythal was murdered. Solas is not a lingering fragment of what he once was. Remember that in my vid I do not claim which option is right (Spirit was given a body/Solas was given a spirit), I just present both of them.

 

12. This dialogue takes place regardless of whether Cole is a human or a spirit. I do not remember if I got it before the personal quest or after, but DA wikia does not say it occurs only after the personal quest, so it is not possible that Cole is referring only to Solas being jealous of the outcome of Cole's personal quest.

 

13. It is not clear why he said that Fen'Harel came later, but do you remember the balcony scene? What made the inquisitor an inquisitor? The orb that probably craeted a connection with a spirit. So Solas became Fen'Harel thanks to a spirit, and an ordinary elf became "Inquisitor" because of the orb that created a connection with a spirit. Another reason why I decided to mention that whole " I see Wisdom in you".

14. I am working on it, but you are right :). Need to think it through.

15. Wynne lived in a mortal world, not in the Fade or a world without the Veil. Solas confirms that elves were immortal.

 

16. If Cole sensed Solas only because he is a dreamwalker, why does he sense Solas being in two places at the same time when DW was not sleeping?

 

17. It makes sense that Wisdom is not written in capital letter, because it would mean he wants to give his spirit, while he wants to give his wisdom (knowledge).

 

After mid term exams I will definitely go through the Jaws of Hakkon DLC again as you suggested :) ! I remember that there was something about Avvars calling upon spirits for aid. It impressed Solas. Uffffff, that was the longest post I have ever read. Thanks a lot for posting it :v .



#15
MuggsBG

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I'm more concerned about the consequences of this theory rather than it's probability. The more I think about it the more I'm afraid of this plot's arc ultimate choice being:

-Destroy Solas and the fade and magic to save the world or what's left of it

-Fulfill his plan and return the world to its origins

That doesn't mean it's not plausible...



#16
TheKomandorShepard

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I'm more concerned about the consequences of this theory rather than it's probability. The more I think about it the more I'm afraid of this plot's arc ultimate choice being:

-Destroy Solas and the fade and magic to save the world or what's left of it

-Fulfill his plan and return the world to its origins

That doesn't mean it's not plausible...

In Dragon age? :blink:  Choice with so large diversity, good luck with that.


  • greenbrownblue aime ceci

#17
greenbrownblue

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I'm more concerned about the consequences of this theory rather than it's probability. The more I think about it the more I'm afraid of this plot's arc ultimate choice being:

-Destroy Solas and the fade and magic to save the world or what's left of it

-Fulfill his plan and return the world to its origins

That doesn't mean it's not plausible...

I agree with TheKomandorShepard, though I hope that the Veil will be torn down and that the Inquisitor will find a way to not to kill countless people in the process. Let's just hope it does not end like ME3, where too many outcomes led to moving the whole next game to another galaxy. 

Anyway, the consequences of this theory are not gonna be much significant if the Veil will not be torn down, don't you think?



#18
TheKomandorShepard

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Honestly, i doubt that Solas will succeeded and if he does things will be restored shortly after , it would require almost entire change of the lore and would diametrically change basics of dragon age world what would involve making elves immortal (or at least insanely hard to kill) and op what would mean human kingdoms would fall replaced by elven supremacy and non-mages would either vanish or wouldn't be able to compete with mages.  



#19
MuggsBG

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In Dragon age? :blink:  Choice with so large diversity, good luck with that.

Well it's all speculation anyway, but that's like half the game for some people here. As I understand it the plot arc has been formed some time after awakening and the world is mostly Gaider's child. But if Weekes is taking over to finish it, one might expect some painful choices in the future.

 

Anyway, the consequences of this theory are not gonna be much significant if the Veil will not be torn down, don't you think?

For me the only 3 questions that stand currently are:

Why did they kill Mythal (and to lesser extent how)

What was Solas' plan to deal with the Evanuris after potentially getting his orb

Who can possibly benefit from the Blight and in what way

If Solas and the rest of the Evanuris were spirits, then the blight could be their instrument since it corrupts living things. Everything about it weakens the veil, yet that is seen like a side effect. But if it was its purpose... then that raises yet another interesting question - stop Solas or stop the Evanuris, because eventually the veil will be torn either way.



#20
TheKomandorShepard

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Well it's all speculation anyway, but that's like half the game for some people here. As I understand it the plot arc has been formed some time after awakening and the world is mostly Gaider's child. But if Weekes is taking over to finish it, one might expect some painful choices in the future.

Bioware policies when it comes to choices in dragon age didn't change under Weeks as we saw in Trespasser where they forced same outcomes for everyone in order to make little diversity between players world states.I don't know what you consider painful but dragon age devs are not very good (to put it lightly) in making choices matter and world states diverse, expecting them practically create 2 different settings in player world states when they have even problems with choices that affect single country let alone world is wishful thinking at best . The only ways such choice to be presented would be either if bioware resigned from import function and/or made one option canon, but as far it doesn't seem to be in case . 



#21
MuggsBG

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Bioware policies when it comes to choices dragon age didn't change under Weeks as we saw in Trespasser where they forced same outcomes for everyone in order to make little diversity between players world states.I don't know what you consider painful but dragon age devs are not very good (to put it lightly) in making choices matter and world states diverse, expecting them practically create 2 different settings in player world states when they have even problems with choices that affect single country let alone world is wishful thinking at best . The only ways such choice to be presented would be either if bioware resigned from import function and/or made one option canon, but as far it doesn't seem to be in case . 

Sure it's wishful thinking man, damn. I like the world and only want to see them make a better game. That being said... you're right when it comes to the history lesson. But I think of Inquisition as the first game from their new direction for the series. Gaider's first incarnation of the world in Origins and more precisely the plot is the reason the game was successful however it's also the reason DAI is filling up so many holes. They failed to address them in DA2, then switched to Frostbite which created DAKeep. But now they have have all the pillars in place AND they made some serious cash so forgive me for being optimistic that they can make bigger strides than just expanding the playable world.



#22
TheKomandorShepard

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Sure it's wishful thinking man, damn. I like the world and only want to see them make a better game. That being said... you're right when it comes to the history lesson. But I think of Inquisition as the first game from their new direction for the series. Gaider's first incarnation of the world in Origins and more precisely the plot is the reason the game was successful however it's also the reason DAI is filling up so many holes. They failed to address them in DA2, then switched to Frostbite which created DAKeep. But now they have have all the pillars in place AND they made some serious cash so forgive me for being optimistic that they can make bigger strides than just expanding the playable world.

I don't know where you see improvements in dragon age inquisition in that matter, in fact dragon age inquisition had worse import than dragon age 2 (and that is quite telling) making most choices done by player lead to the same outcome and/or becomeing irrelevant and even current direction series took leads to the same thing when it comes to the choices.So pretty much if you want to be optimistic even despite there is no hope for what you wish your call, im just saying that is unrealistic and pointing it won't gonna happen. :whistle:   



#23
MuggsBG

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I don't know where you see improvements in dragon age inquisition in that matter, in fact dragon age inquisition had worse import than dragon age 2 (and that is quite telling) making most choices done by player lead to the same outcome and/or becomeing irrelevant and even current direction series took leads to the same thing when it comes to the choices.So pretty much if you want to be optimistic even despite there is no hope for what you wish your call, im just saying that is unrealistic and pointing it won't gonna happen. :whistle:   

"But I think of Inquisition as the first game from their new direction for the series."



#24
TheKomandorShepard

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"But I think of Inquisition as the first game from their new direction for the series."

It isn't new direction, Inquisition mostly continues and expands plots and elements of the world from previous games ,hell that even includes characters, pretty much next game will do the same and that is when it comes to story.If you mean mechanics of the Inquisition when compared to the rest of the series sure, but i just pointed that with that direction don't count on that your wishes will come true.    



#25
MuggsBG

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It isn't new direction, Inquisition mostly continues and expands plots and elements of the world from previous games ,hell that even includes characters, pretty much next game will do the same and that is when it comes to story.If you mean mechanics of the Inquisition when compared to the rest of the series sure, but i just pointed that with that direction don't count that your wishes will come true.    

No, it doesn't. There's a very subtle line lore-wise that's drawn after awakening and if it wasn't for that miscarriage of a game that was DA2 it would be much more visible. Also I respect your pessimistic views on the game's future but politely choose to ignore them.