72 réponses à ce sujet

[Kabooooom]

Time dilation near the black hole is exceptionally exaggerated in that movie.

No it isn't. Well, in a sense. The time dilation in the movie is mathematically accurate. The thing is, Gargantua is an effing massive supermassive black hole.

And OP, at no point in Mass Effect would time dilation ever come into effect with the possible exception of the Collector Base. And that was probably orbiting a normal black hole so the effect wouldn't be that great.

[FredLC]

Does not matter that it was a supermassive black hole. Every black hole causes time dilation to the point of complete halt of movement in the time dimension. That is one of the properties of the event horizon. So it's just a matter of the proper distance from the horizon be respected to get that exact dilation.

There are some things that don't make sense though.

The ship in orbit of the planet should experience the exact same dilation.

To have that sort of dilation, the planet would have to be very near the black hole. In that case, to sustain orbit the planet would have to be moving in a significant portion of the speed of light. It's possible to experience motion normally in these conditions as long as the speed is constant, but my issue is that the ship should be unable to catch up to the planet, let alone achieve synchronized orbit.

Finally, how the hell the black hole could create these massive waves without creating currents in the water? And, even worse, how come these extreme tidal forces were affecting the shallow water but weren't ripping the planet surface apart?

I need to read Kip Thorne's book, he allegedly explain these, but I'm skeptical.

Still the most accurate scientific movie out there, though.

[SentinelMacDeath]

you know what ruined Interstellar for me? 

 

Matthew McConaughey

 

the one and only time in my movie going life where I actively wished for subtitles just to understand what he's saying

[straykat]

you know what ruined Interstellar for me? 

 

Matthew McConaughey

 

the one and only time in my movie going life where I actively wished for subtitles just to understand what he's saying

 

Strange. And funny. Because I grew up not too far from him. lol

[Giantdeathrobot]

Still the most accurate scientific movie out there, though.

 

Including the ending sequences? I'm an ignoramus when it comes to things like quantum mechanics and assorted theoretical science shenanigans, but it seems like Nolan really went off the proverbial science rails in the last third of the film. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Not that it much matters in my mind; while I liked the premise of the film and it has some great moments, ye olde ''love conquers all'' trope left me with an ambivalent feeling towards the film.

 

I also wouldn't want Mass Effect to attempt that sort of artsy conclusion. They already bit off more than they could chew with ME3's ending.

[straykat]

Including the ending sequences? I'm an ignoramus when it comes to things like quantum mechanics and assorted theoretical science shenanigans, but it seems like Nolan really went off the proverbial science rails in the last third of the film. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Not that it much matters in my mind; while I liked the premise of the film and it has some great moments, ye olde ''love conquers all'' trope left me with an ambivalent feeling towards the film.

 

I also wouldn't want Mass Effect to attempt that sort of artsy conclusion. They already bit off more than they could chew with ME3's ending.

 

Yeah, it's a bit odd.

 

 

If anything, I think Nolan's last Batman film is similar to Mass Effect, but hits better notes in it's conclusion with Batman and the bomb. At least if you're a Destroyer.

 

And the love story is funny... he just suddenly hooks up with Selina, even after getting his back broken because of her. He's like "Oh well. Good one!" I suppose that's the only woman who can live with his insanity. And vice versa.

[Remix-General Aetius]

Keep in mind this is a Kevin Sorbo show so expect ... 90s Hercules level quality acting. It's sci-fi, and it isn't bad, but Babylon 5 it is not.

 

Oh, Kevin Sorbo = homophobe central. Pass.

[Neoleviathan]

I wish that the collector base had actually had dilation effects upon it and I said this back in 2011. In fact I sort of wanted the second you 'defeated' the collectors the station would lose its orbit in the debris field and begin drifting into the course of a exploding sun or black hole. I mean seriously, you are placing the damn thing in a area of space where it is theorized there is literally only exploding stars, black holes and waves of traveling radiation and NONE of that comes into play.

I just realized something when I read your post. I was always a little bothered by how quickly the Reapers reached the Milky Way. But what if, you know. If in Mass Effect 2 time dilation while in Collector space had been an issue like you said. So when Shepard & crew complete the suicide run, years had gone by & the Reapers had a more of a stretch for them to simply crawl in like they did. That would have been cool & intimidating. I think really it should have taken centuries for the Reapers, but I would have taken however many years you could squeeze out of time dilation & keep character arcs in the galaxy at large good. Although it would have been a crazy what if for Shepard & crew to escape Collector space after decades or centuries (Edit - ugh, & centuries later Liara is still there ready to do her Shadow Broker thing. lol).

[SentinelMacDeath]

I just realized something when I read your post. I was always a little bothered by how quickly the Reapers reached the Milky Way. But what if, you know. If in Mass Effect 2 time dilation while in Collector space had been an issue like you said. So when Shepard & crew complete the suicide run, years had gone by & the Reapers had a more of a stretch for them to simply crawl in like they did. That would have been cool & intimidating. I think really it should have taken centuries for the Reapers, but I would have taken however many years you could squeeze out of time dilation & keep character arcs in the galaxy at large good. Although it would have been a crazy what if for Shepard & crew to escape Collector space after decades or centuries (Edit - ugh, & centuries later Liara is still there ready to do her Shadow Broker thing. lol).

 

Well, it wasn't the first time for the Reapers to show fast up and cause a ruckus, they have/had that whole spiel down to a T. Practice makes perfect. But it would have made for an interesting plot to incorporate time dilation even though I have a hard time grasping the concept 

[Master Warder Z_]

Well, it wasn't the first time for the Reapers to show fast up and cause a ruckus, they have/had that whole spiel down to a T. Practice makes perfect. But it would have made for an interesting plot to incorporate time dilation even though I have a hard time grasping the concept

It's a theoretical principle reliant on a event that humanity has had no contact with-we have a rough idea based on what our understanding of physics and astronomy tell us.

So even though I grasp the concept I make no assurance on its validity.

[The Twilight God]

Oh wait, time dilation was only due to the black hole and not due to the size of the planets?  Man I got to rewatch that movie.  My astrophysics needs work.

Seriously? Are you really that stu...

Nevermind.

[duvey85]

It's a theoretical principle reliant on a event that humanity has had no contact with-we have a rough idea based on what our understanding of physics and astronomy tell us.

So even though I grasp the concept I make no assurance on its validity.

 

 

We have clocks accurate enough to measure time dilation.

[Master Warder Z_]

We have clocks accurate enough to measure time dilation.

In relation to the theory of it influencing the perception of time in the vicinity of a larger then normal breach in this reality?

With perfect accuracy proving the theorem? Citable empirical evidence? Whoever made said clock deserves every award for physical science I am aware of...and a new one named after them.

Edit: I am saddened to see that this link only took me to dilation in reference to normal relativity experimentation in reference to our own planet.

._.

Seriously. Accurately measuring its effect via event horizon would be something I'd love to throw a Nobel prize at.

[FredLC]

Including the ending sequences? I'm an ignoramus when it comes to things like quantum mechanics and assorted theoretical science shenanigans, but it seems like Nolan really went off the proverbial science rails in the last third of the film. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Not that it much matters in my mind; while I liked the premise of the film and it has some great moments, ye olde ''love conquers all'' trope left me with an ambivalent feeling towards the film.

I also wouldn't want Mass Effect to attempt that sort of artsy conclusion. They already bit off more than they could chew with ME3's ending.

SPOILERS:

Ok, here's the thing. Power of love as something quantifiable is complete bullshit, he could very well be saying that they had built up their chi to feel where to go, or that tossing a coin would give the results if they wished hard enough. ToTal dissociation from science, but such a complete one that it does not diminish the fact that what science was shown, was accurate.

Up to that point in the movie, my criticisms, perhaps adding there the solid clouds in dr. Mann planet (the movie don't try to give us the mechanism behind these so I can't evaluate it) are the obvious problems. But than he falls into the black hole and open a can of worms.

The concept there is that he survives the experience because the future beings shielded him with a hypersphere or a hypercube/tesseract. So, in parts:

In classical relativity, falling into a black hole is always lethal, but not at the same time, that will depend on the size of the black hole, witch depends on the mass of the singularity. A star-sized black hole will kill faster, because the area of space-time distortion, where it will cause tidal waves into a human-sized object happens not much after the hole's Gravity is in effect. In a supermassive black hole, the doom area is much larger, so you will be doomed sooner, but the effect is spread over such large space that you can fall for days before things start to hurt.

There is a new concep in holographic theory that argues that the event horizon will have a firewall of Hawking radiation that will burn whatever enters it, though it's entirely theoretical. I'll put down a spoiler tab below if you want to dig a little deeper there. However, assuming classical relativity as the framework, and knowing that gargantua was supermassive, you don't even need superpowers from the future to have survived for the length of time depicted.

Spoiler

even in classical relativity, an external observer and the person falling would have conflicting experiences. The person falling would not feel anything even after crossing the horizon, until the tidal effects begin tearing him apart. An external observer would never even see the person disappear into the horizon; he would start to move slower and slower, despite the growing gravity, because time itself would be slowing down. Before crossing, time would approach zero, and the person falling would be completely frozen in place; however, the light bouncing from him would rapidly redshift until that person becomes invisible. The points of view are incompatible, but the beauty is that they can never be compared, because whatever falls in the horizon don't come back. So they are completely valid, simultaneously, even though what they say happened are irreconcilable. There is the weirdness of black holes for you, and that plays into the movie where Cooper does escape the horizon.

Holography would eliminate that paradox making that the falling observer burn in a wave of quantum effects (the Hawking radiation), unifying the perspective of both observers and allowing the information to exist in normal space time. That is one of the ways it solves hawking' information paradox.

Than the hyper object and time manipulation:

It's a staple of special relativity that time is a dimension like space, and that it can be warped and slow down, though never dialed back. It allows for exotic objects like Einstein-Rosen bridges (wormholes) that could allow one to access multiple space time points, like in the movie, but their existence is entirely theoretical and quite controversial, because it would allow for time paradoxes like the one in the movie (where the information to save the future comes from the beings saved by the information).

Posterior theories like superstring and specially its modern incarnation, M theory, predict the existence of up to 10 spatial dimensions in contrast with the usual 3 dimensions though the extra-seven are inaccessible for a number of reasons.

One exception, though, is gravity; because the quantized gravity particle, the graviton, is a closed loop, making it quite unique in nature, It "floats freely" and isn't stuck in the slice of reality in that our three spatial dimensions exist. Thus gravity is the only way to access higher dimensions.

Though romanticized with the power of love nonsense, the core concepts of the third act are, than, scientifically sound though based on highly speculative cutting edge aspects of modern physics. An object that is hyper dimensional maybe would not be limited by the event horizon of a black hole, because it's finality is correlated with the three-dimensional nature of its effects. The same thing could allow an observer to be in a 5 (or more) dimensional space in which time could be experienced as a physical entity, like the other three dimensions of our space-time...

(Though I gotta say that it would be such mess of confusion that would probably break down the cerebral acuity of a human observer. That it was depicted as confusing, but clear enough for Cooper to be functional is, IMHO, another artistic license)

... And if someone is in that condition he would be able to walk back and forward in time like we do in space, and any hope of sending messages would be through free-floating gravitons, hence the "gravity anomalies" of the movie.

So, there is uncalled for melodrama, and that is the weakest part of the movie (never was nolan's strongest point), and there are concepts there that are a bit far out, but the movie does have a solid foot in things that science either knows or consider feasible, if speculative. Hence, it is the most accurate scientific movie I have ever seen, despite the wacky third act.

But, as I said, I'm waiting for the kindle edition o Thorne's book here in Brazil so I can check out how he explains the issues I brought up in my first post.

[FredLC]

With perfect accuracy proving the theorem? Citable empirical evidence? Whoever made said clock deserves every award for physical science I am aware of...and a new one named after them.
Edit: I am saddened to see that this link only took me to dilation in reference to normal relativity experimentation in reference to our own planet.
._.
Seriously. Accurately measuring its effect via event horizon would be something I'd love to throw a Nobel prize at.

Yup. Perfect accuracy, in full accordance to the theorems.

We did the experience with atomic clocks in airplanes (that was probably the experiment in the link you saw), but we have tested this in a more dramatic way. GPS.

The satellites that relay the triangulations have their clocks corrected to account for relativistic time dilation, because as the signal travel at the speed of light, it has enough warping to be appreciable - several minutes in fact for each signal bean. In a matter of days GPS would be giving wrong data in the scale of dozens of miles if Einstein's equations weren't taken in account.

As for testing its effects in the vicinities of black holes, well, just be glad we are not that close to one to be able to do it.

[Catastrophy]

Time dilates when listening to too much Hans Zimmer. 

Time dilates when simply playing video games.

[Master Warder Z_]

As for testing its effects in the vicinities of black holes, well, just be glad we are not that close to one to be able to test it.

*snorts* then its like theorizing about detonating a atom bomb back in 1942. You have what a understanding of physics with tell you and then numerous potential variables, and outcomes that fall into yet more subgroups of variables.

Truth of the matter is, it like FTL, Wormholes, Anti Matter (outside of very specific circumstances) and 'exotic matter' is theoretical the minute until it is applied in a experiment outside of theorized ideal conditions or conjecture. It's a thesis.

Like self sustaining combustion from a nuclear device. Which...given the fact we have a atmosphere I'd say didn't pan out due us not understanding the subject, humanity has no interactions with this phenomenon little lone conducted experiments with theorized dilation in time involving them. I'd say any 'perfect' example of purposed outcome is just that, a asserted thesis.

[FredLC]

I understand your frustration, but it comes from an uncalled for preoccupation with human presence.

Let me explain: observation is important, and is a cornerstone of the scientific method, but it does not necessarily needs to be direct. I remember an example by Laurence Krauss, refuting creationism, in which he said that if you go to a cabin in the woods, and there you see a fence down, with bear footsteps all over the place, bear droppings in the ground and bear fur trapped in your barbwire, you don't need to have seen the bear itself to know what happened.

Due to the scales of space and time in the universe, cosmic phenomenae is only accessible through observation and clues. In the case of black holes, just clues, as they can't be observed (because they are black). However, and this should drive the point home, these clues have great predicting power. Do you know that the same theories that predict time dilation of black holes also predicted black holes themselves?

Yup, we knew of black holes decades before they were actually discovered. The idea came from one of the solutions given to Einstein's field equations during WWII, and back then, people also thought them to be mathematical curiosities, too weird to exist in real life. Well, surprise surprise.

The fact, than, is that we know black holes exist, and we know that time dilation exist, even in celestial bodies we can investigate directly (like the earth and the moon). From there on it's just a matter of scaling up the math.

Edit: also, of course, for the purposes of the movie being scientifically accurate, well, it is in accordance with reigning theories, even if in the future they happen to be refuted.

[Master Warder Z_]

Uncalled for? I'd argue that's the only damn basis with merit, actual damn experimentation in the field on a subject. I mean I get that it has a basis in what we consider a appropriate measure for said 'hole' and said bodies effect.

But...it's just a theory with what I'd argue far too much emphasis placed on our general understanding of relativity. If it makes you feel better it looks better than String Theory.

[FredLC]

I don't know why you are framing this as if I was against experimentation. I'm not.

What I am denouncing is the notion that we need to be close to observe and experiment. Clues and distant observation works. If you agree it does, than this part of the conversation is moot, and we can focus only if the observations that happened are enough.

So, do you?

Also, no honest person would deny that relativity has much more solid footing than string theory. String theory is indeed in infancy, with no direct evidence as of yet (I like to quote Steven Weinberg at this point, saying that in the history of science never a theory with the mathematical consistency of ST was ever proven wrong), so it is ok to treat it as merely a guide.

However, relativity does have solid footing and tons of empirical evidence. And time dilation in black holes depends only on it.

[Master Warder Z_]

String theory is a joke of...as you said its in its infancy. But no, when it comes to things of this nature, I think you have to detonate a atom bomb if you catch my meaning, I mean we are talking about something like Time Dilation, a effect if actually proven viable basically rewrites how physics works to a certain extent.

[In Exile]

Oh, Kevin Sorbo = homophobe central. Pass.

Wait, what?

[In Exile]

SPOILERS:

Ok, here's the thing. Power of love as something quantifiable is complete bullshit, he could very well be saying that they had built up their chi to feel where to go, or that tossing a coin would give the results if they wished hard enough. ToTal dissociation from science, but such a complete one that it does not diminish the fact that what science was shown, was accurate.

Up to that point in the movie, my criticisms, perhaps adding there the solid clouds in dr. Mann planet (the movie don't try to give us the mechanism behind these so I can't evaluate it) are the obvious problems. But than he falls into the black hole and open a can of worms.

The concept there is that he survives the experience because the future beings shielded him with a hypersphere or a hypercube/tesseract. So, in parts:

In classical relativity, falling into a black hole is always lethal, but not at the same time, that will depend on the size of the black hole, witch depends on the mass of the singularity. A star-sized black hole will kill faster, because the area of space-time distortion, where it will cause tidal waves into a human-sized object happens not much after the hole's Gravity is in effect. In a supermassive black hole, the doom area is much larger, so you will be doomed sooner, but the effect is spread over such large space that you can fall for days before things start to hurt.

There is a new concep in holographic theory that argues that the event horizon will have a firewall of Hawking radiation that will burn whatever enters it, though it's entirely theoretical. I'll put down a spoiler tab below if you want to dig a little deeper there. However, assuming classical relativity as the framework, and knowing that gargantua was supermassive, you don't even need superpowers from the future to have survived for the length of time depicted.

Spoiler

even in classical relativity, an external observer and the person falling would have conflicting experiences. The person falling would not feel anything even after crossing the horizon, until the tidal effects begin tearing him apart. An external observer would never even see the person disappear into the horizon; he would start to move slower and slower, despite the growing gravity, because time itself would be slowing down. Before crossing, time would approach zero, and the person falling would be completely frozen in place; however, the light bouncing from him would rapidly redshift until that person becomes invisible. The points of view are incompatible, but the beauty is that they can never be compared, because whatever falls in the horizon don't come back. So they are completely valid, simultaneously, even though what they say happened are irreconcilable. There is the weirdness of black holes for you, and that plays into the movie where Cooper does escape the horizon.

Holography would eliminate that paradox making that the falling observer burn in a wave of quantum effects (the Hawking radiation), unifying the perspective of both observers and allowing the information to exist in normal space time. That is one of the ways it solves hawking' information paradox.

Than the hyper object and time manipulation:

It's a staple of special relativity that time is a dimension like space, and that it can be warped and slow down, though never dialed back. It allows for exotic objects like Einstein-Rosen bridges (wormholes) that could allow one to access multiple space time points, like in the movie, but their existence is entirely theoretical and quite controversial, because it would allow for time paradoxes like the one in the movie (where the information to save the future comes from the beings saved by the information).

Posterior theories like superstring and specially its modern incarnation, M theory, predict the existence of up to 10 spatial dimensions in contrast with the usual 3 dimensions though the extra-seven are inaccessible for a number of reasons.

One exception, though, is gravity; because the quantized gravity particle, the graviton, is a closed loop, making it quite unique in nature, It "floats freely" and isn't stuck in the slice of reality in that our three spatial dimensions exist. Thus gravity is the only way to access higher dimensions.

Though romanticized with the power of love nonsense, the core concepts of the third act are, than, scientifically sound though based on highly speculative cutting edge aspects of modern physics. An object that is hyper dimensional maybe would not be limited by the event horizon of a black hole, because it's finality is correlated with the three-dimensional nature of its effects. The same thing could allow an observer to be in a 5 (or more) dimensional space in which time could be experienced as a physical entity, like the other three dimensions of our space-time...

(Though I gotta say that it would be such mess of confusion that would probably break down the cerebral acuity of a human observer. That it was depicted as confusing, but clear enough for Cooper to be functional is, IMHO, another artistic license)

... And if someone is in that condition he would be able to walk back and forward in time like we do in space, and any hope of sending messages would be through free-floating gravitons, hence the "gravity anomalies" of the movie.

So, there is uncalled for melodrama, and that is the weakest part of the movie (never was nolan's strongest point), and there are concepts there that are a bit far out, but the movie does have a solid foot in things that science either knows or consider feasible, if speculative. Hence, it is the most accurate scientific movie I have ever seen, despite the wacky third act.

But, as I said, I'm waiting for the kindle edition o Thorne's book here in Brazil so I can check out how he explains the issues I brought up in my first post.

As I understand the book the answer is that Gargantua isn't a single black hole. Or rather, it is, but there are other orbiting black holes around it. And so the time dilation (and gravity) effects are far more chaotic.

[Master Warder Z_]

As I understand the book the answer is that Gargantua isn't a single black hole. Or rather, it is, but there are other orbiting black holes around it. And so the time dilation (and gravity) effects are far more chaotic.

 

You know, I'd love to see how the spacial mechanics work for how black holes 'orbit' each other, as I understand they don't generate a gravitation field in so far as to have a 'orbit' as we'd define it via a planetary body, the only known exception to this really isn't a exception, the binary black hole phenom in which two black holes basically consume each other, and result in a single black hole, all theoretical, to my knowledge there has been no confirmation of their existence beyond if I recall some sort of reading that was detected via deep space radio wave or some such.

 

But then you have situations like the collector base and multiple black holes that are apparently in a stable 'orbit' as we'd define it, as improper as the term may be. After all black holes rarely supposedly move, but they can move if say a star explodes or some such garbage, which you figure would be a frequent occurrence and yet there seemed to be no shortage of occurring black holes, but they did not consume each other. I tend to play it off as visual effect given my admittedly mediocre knowledge of astrophysics disputes it but perhaps it is possible due to some mass effect universal space magic.

 

So ultimately I'd assume, from what I know of these little rips in reality, if they are in proximity to 'orbit' each other, they will eventually merge into a singular hole. Unless if you apply some reaper tech apparently.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Good post but snipped for brevity's sake

 

That's very interesting, thank you. I imagined the whole ''Power of Love'' nonsense didn't have any basis other than artistic license, but the whole timey whimey shtick being rooted in theoretical science is news to me.

 

I still think the sequence is overly dramatic and overdone (transmitting the magical equation that solves everything in Morse messages in the dust, really?), that said timey wimey location having a direct link to some girl's bedroom is awfully convenient, and that the main character actually understanding what in the blazes is going on while being thrown into something no human being has come close to experience, is a bit silly. Plus I dislike time travel as a plot point as a rule.