44 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Then you're just killing him a different way.

 

Do you really think an Andrastian human council will show any mercy to a "heathen" elven god who tried to destroy an Andrastian human world to restore a "pagan" ancient elven one? He'll be universally condemned and executed before you can even pull in a character witness in his defense.

 

I mean, really. They declared war on the entire Dales due to what they jumped to assume was an elven attack on a single Andrastian human village (which turns out not to have been true), used it as an excuse to take back the Dales and force elves into impoverished alienages so they could have an abundance of "slave-in-all-but-name" elven labor, and continue to use it as an excuse to exploit and subjugate impoverished elven citizens to this day over seven hundred years later. 

 

Solas has no hope in a human trial. You might as well kill him yourself, because under an Exalted Council he'll be found guilty and executed before week's end.

If you are referring to the Exalted March, that only came about after the elves had sacked half of Orlais, including Val Royeaux.

 

Other than that, while I don't agree with the sentiment behind your arguments, you are right.

The conflict with Solas is one to determine the dominant race in Thedas. Such conflicts can't be decided through trials and mercy is not shown to the defeated.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Not sure what the point would be. Solas is already guilty. He outright says to you that he aims to topple the existing world.

 

Also, Thedas doesn't have anything like a neutral residing Supreme Court. Any trial he undergoes would be before established political entities such as the Chantry, Orlais or Tevinter. And given that he's a pagan elven demigod who tried to destroy the world in order to allow untold amounts of magic to flow back, I'm certain he will be executed by default. No way he gets even close to a fair trial, and a fair trial would still end with his death anyway so...

 

Not to mention the problem of keeping such a powerful being chained, or the anti-elven sentiment that would be kicked up if Solas publicly reveals his plans.

[Tidus]

Its not like it'd be a fair trial. All its likely to do is stir up anti-elven sentiments.

 

And that's something the Elves doesn't need more of. The Shems find any reason to purge a Alienage as it is.

 

Seems the most hated people in the DA games is the Orlesians, Elves, Brands and mages.

[Gervaise]

It would make more sense for the elves to try him.   They are the ones who suffered by his past actions, particularly the ones who didn't go into uthenera but the descendants of those who continued to live, reproduce and die, since it is they who are going to suffer by his actions again; firstly through all the anti-elf feeling it is going to create and secondly because he admits that they are going to die along with everyone else.

 

However, what  would be the point?    There is no justification for his current plan, unless you are a very vengeful, racist elf who would delight in seeing the other races suffer.   He actually admits that we deserve better and yet he is going to do it anyway.   That is what has me scratching my head every time about the "redeem" option, particularly when you asked him why the world has to die, he says he doesn't want to give you too many clues in case you work out a way to stop him.    Solas in his current mood I really have no time for but since it is hinted that apparently there must be some way other than killing him, I'll give it a shot.    This is not because I necessarily want to redeem him, and in any case there has to be some sort of co-operation in redemption, but because with the power he now seems to possess it will be virtually impossible to kill him or even get near enough to him.     Let's face it, he is a dreamer, controls the eluvian network, has knowledge of ancient elf magic and is currently amassing a large force of devoted followers.      The only person who could possibly have had a reasonable shot at it was Flemeth/Mythal and we know what happened to her (or at least we think we do).

[shortbreadspacer]

If this were to happen, Abelas and the other former Guardians of Mythal would be a great option to both contain and judge Solas. Of course that would mean a new PC jumping through hoops to ally with them.

 

That would also work with going to Tevinter. ALL Elvenhan had magic, so all of Mythal's former guardians have magic and, if the orb was a focus for ancient elves and, it's true that the anchor was familiar magic to them, they know what Solas is capable of and, how to counter all of it.

 

So assume Inquisitor is gone, retired, whatever, you have a new PC allied with Abelas and crew who all know the truth of the veil and of the fall of the elven empire. so one with restoration for the elves in a way that allows other races to remain as well.

Not to derail this - but holy crap, do I want Abelas as a companion now in DA4. It didn't even occur to me.

[Evamitchelle]

I don't see why the 'redeem' option would necessarily mean Solas gets off scot-free. Sparing Loghain in DAO can result in either his soul being destroyed to kill the Archdemon, or becoming a Grey Warden in the country he despises for the (short) rest of his life. He can do the whole sacrifice thing again in DAI. Redemption by death seems like a strong possibility for Solas.

[Dai Grepher]

That is what has me scratching my head every time about the "redeem" option, particularly when you asked him why the world has to die, he says he doesn't want to give you too many clues in case you work out a way to stop him.    Solas in his current mood I really have no time for but since it is hinted that apparently there must be some way other than killing him, I'll give it a shot.    This is not because I necessarily want to redeem him, and in any case there has to be some sort of co-operation in redemption, but because with the power he now seems to possess it will be virtually impossible to kill him or even get near enough to him.     Let's face it, he is a dreamer, controls the eluvian network, has knowledge of ancient elf magic and is currently amassing a large force of devoted followers.      The only person who could possibly have had a reasonable shot at it was Flemeth/Mythal and we know what happened to her (or at least we think we do).

 

I think it means you show him that his plan won't work, or that his world can be restored without it affecting the current world. In other words, you show him that he is wrong in what he thinks or possibly even remembers.
 

This might also be playing toward an Isabela moment, where Solas will be persuaded to risk himself to do the right thing, or maybe even sacrifice himself to save the current world from a greater threat, like Loghain and the archdemon as the person above me pointed out. Or you could just kill him and deal with the threat yourself.

[Gervaise]

The thing is you didn't go through the game with the option of "redeem" or "kill", Loghain.    Most of the time you were avoiding getting captured and killed yourself; then when the choice presented itself, you took the decision there and then.    In fact you didn't have to want to redeem him necessarily; you could just have felt it was a just punishment being made to join the Wardens considering he had caused the death of so many, plus he was reputed to be a good tactician and so could possibly be an asset against the archdemon, so purely a practical rather than an emotional decision.

 

I get that you will try and show him the plan won't work or is unnecessary to achieve his aims but it would have been helpful if he had answered the question of why it was necessary.  (Clearly that has more to do with the plot of subsequent games).    My point is that I would always have been inclined to go for persuasion over aggression initially because of the difficulty in killing him and also that it will be harder to talk him round if he thinks you want to kill him.    What I have always objected to is the reason for taking this line and the words put into my mouth at the end "We will save our friend from himself".     That is not my primary aim; I want to save the world from him.   I just happen to think that proving him wrong might be the most effective way of going about it.   Even the original choice is captioned "Redeem Solas", while your actual words are "I will prove you wrong."    The emphasis and intent are different from the how you are led into the choice, to what you actually say.   To be honest, I no longer recognise the person in Trespasser as the elf I called my friend.    All those fine sentiments he expressed in the same game and which I identified with, mean nothing now that he intends to go through with his plan even though he admits he sees us in a different light now and that in his eyes we "deserve" better.    I thought "deserve" had nothing to do with it; he formerly stated that every free thinking creature had the right to exist.    The only ones he condemned were those who subjugated others and forced them to inhabit the world that they thought best.

 

So my primary aim is not concern for Solas.    For example, you prove to him that his plan won't work; so he abandons it in favour of another.    He is not "redeemed" since he was still entirely willing to go through with the first plan but common sense has prevailed and the world is saved.    In his eyes his plan was never "wrong" in the sense of being "evil", simply wrong in the sense that it would have failed.     So really what I am trying to do is "redeem" the world from Solas.

[TK514]

I would be more than happy to put Solas on trial then make him Tranquil.  Given that he doesn't even view modern elves as people, I doubt he will be unduly bothered by what his actions will ultimately cost them in terms of increased discrimination and/or attempted genocide, so leaving him 'whole' to witness it would have no punitive effect.

[The Baconer]

I don't know what it would accomplish. I prefer simpler solutions. 

[Rekkampum]

I disagree , as you said it would be unrealistic to drag person with power like Solas before court, even killing him probably will require deus ex machina like with was with reapers.

 

That wasn't a Deus Ex Machina, but a MacGuffin, as creating the Crucible to stop them was the entire focus of the game's story.

[rapscallioness]

Since force is out of the question, I'm thinking the only way to deal with Solas in the future--for those that want to deal with him, and stop him, is to trick the Trickster.

 

It will take a very clever, manipulative approach, but it's the only way I can see. Trick the Trickster. And then possibly imprison him. The same way he did with the evanuris, et al.

 

We've got to find a way to set him up, lure him in, then metaphorically shank him in the azz.

[Dai Grepher]

The thing is you didn't go through the game with the option of "redeem" or "kill", Loghain.

 

I get that you will try and show him the plan won't work or is unnecessary to achieve his aims but it would have been helpful if he had answered the question of why it was necessary.  (Clearly that has more to do with the plot of subsequent games). 

 

What I have always objected to is the reason for taking this line and the words put into my mouth at the end "We will save our friend from himself".

 

The emphasis and intent are different from the how you are led into the choice, to what you actually say.

 

All those fine sentiments he expressed in the same game and which I identified with, mean nothing now that he intends to go through with his plan even though he admits he sees us in a different light now and that in his eyes we "deserve" better.

 

For example, you prove to him that his plan won't work; so he abandons it in favour of another.    He is not "redeemed" since he was still entirely willing to go through with the first plan but common sense has prevailed and the world is saved.    In his eyes his plan was never "wrong" in the sense of being "evil", simply wrong in the sense that it would have failed.     So really what I am trying to do is "redeem" the world from Solas.

 

True that your main objective most of the game was to defeat Loghain, and also true that you had more options than just kill or redeem. But I'm sure Solas' story would go the same way, except you've made your main choice already (which I'm sure we'd be able to change at any point).

 

I'm not displeased that he didn't tell the Inquisitor the answer. Obviously BioWare doesn't want to reveal too much to players, and it's interesting that Solas will leave it to an already enlightened Inquisitor to figure out. I prefer this actually, and already have some theories. Maybe Solas thinks the Inquisitor's search for answers will in itself convince him that Solas' plan is correct.

 

But the full quote is, "We will save our friend from himself, if we can." So killing him is still on the table, it's just that you will try to reason with him first.

 

The emphasis/intent and what is actually said are different, and this is annoying, but this has been the case with almost every dialogue choice in the game.

 

You're right that Solas is a hypocrite who has gone back on the virtues he espoused. Maybe he knows he's immoral, but holds the restoration of his people as more important. Honestly I don't know if this is good writing or bad writing on BioWare's part. But his meeting with Flemeth shows him saying he should be punished, except that he still needs to help the People.

 

"Redeem" might be a poor choice of word, but it depends how the story plays out. Maybe the (ex)Inquisitor convinces Solas that what he's doing is immoral and against everything he stood for, and it isn't worth rebuilding the elvhen empire on the corpses of millions of beings he once recognized as people. Because how is that any different from Tevinter sacrificing slaves to empower magic that creates their buildings? BioWare could still add some interesting twists to this plot.

[rapscallioness]

Too bad it's going to be years before we find anything out. Years.

[Qun00]

There are only to reasonable options:

a) Make Solas tranquil and then offer him to the Grey Wardens as a servant at Weisshaupt.

b ) Make Solas tranquil and send him to Par Vollen where he will submit to the Qun.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Too bad it's going to be years before we find anything out. Years.

 

[Amplitudelol]

Don't know about everyone else, but I find the options to either redeem (and possibly let go scot free) or do whatever it takes to stop him (which I assume means killing him) to be mostly unsatisfactory and I hope that there exists an a third option to drag him front of the exalted council, or any international Thedas council, and give him the closest thing Thedas has to be actually trial for his crimes. 

 

It's unlikely to happen since the guy can turn people into stone and is absurdly powerful and dangerous, and every other final villain in Dragon Age has been solely judged by PC (Loghain being an exception), but something about having him directly judged by representatives of all the people he likely plans to destroy just feels more just.

 

Anyone else agree? Or do you just hope that there's more then two options for the Inquisitor or new PC to deal with Solas? Just having two is pretty lame to me. 

 

The guy destroyed a civilization and banished most of the magic and knowledge from the world, then caused total chaos in southern Thedas resulting in countless deaths by a failed attempt to unbanish magic / tear down the Veil. After all of this he is still trying to continue to accomplish his original goal which means total annihilation of human civilization as he told the Inquisitor. What the judgement would be i wonder assuming someone can capture and elf god alive and keep him locked up for a trial.

[Qun00]

The guy destroyed a civilization and banished most of the magic and knowledge from the world, then caused total chaos in southern Thedas resulting in countless deaths by a failed attempt to unbanish magic / tear down the Veil. After all of this he is still trying to continue to accomplish his original goal which means total annihilation of human civilization as he told the Inquisitor. What the judgement would be i wonder assuming someone can capture and elf god alive and keep him locked up for a trial.

Unless Solas surrenders willingly, the only way to stop him from escaping a trial is tranquility. The guy can kill people without even looking at them now.

Then again, that already would be punishment.

[LOLandStuff]

After all he's done and if people found out, a trial would be the least of their concern. They'll want him dead.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

A trial determines guilt or innocence and sets the penalty if it winds up being the former. Solas has already pleaded guilty, so what would the point be in holding a trial? It isn't as if he's going to change his plea. If the sole point of the trial is to determine a penalty, you can do that without a trial.

Trials are for victims as much as they're for the accused. Not just guilt or innocence being determined, though that is the primary function, but the airing of the grievances is important, too, for both parties.

 

In this case, it would benefit the public good to publicly list Solas' crimes and also to hear his defense/story. In my opinion, anyway.

 

And really it makes no sense. What exactly are we proving? I mean, in terms that are important to Solas. We're going to prove that, uh, we can have spirits walking among us? That we're not tranquil? We aren't so, yeah. Solas wants the ancient elvhen back, and how they were before. How does that connect with anything that we could possibly do even if we wanted to prove something.

I think the bold is the thing we have to prove him about. He wants what you said: his people restored to their immortality and magic. He thinks the way he has to go about this requires him to do something that will destroy the current world and people on Thedas.

 

Changing that reality, finding another way for those ancient elves that yet live (either in stasis or among us as Solas' agents) to be able to thrive as they once were, without killing all the rest of us; that's what we'll need to find. When you choose the redeem option, I think you are basically committing to finding another path to his goal that isn't evil.

 

Either that or you are promising to change his mind about his goal's worthiness in the first place. It can be either/or the way its phrased, imo.

 

Its not about proving Thedosians are people or have a right to exist. If befriended, Solas actually already knows both those things and acknowledges them. Its just that, to him, current Thedas' personhood and right to exist doesn't outweigh his responsibility to fix his mistake and right the wrong he's done to his own people.