189 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

If the Krogan were sensible, they'd prioritise sending fertile females along. If they also got a nicer planet than Tuchanka, they could probably do quite well in Andromeda even with the genophage.

[GoldenGail3]

In my view Krogan adaptation to genophage is inevitable. Sabotaging the genophage cure guarantees reprisal and de rails any
hope of peaceful coexistence after the war.

Ah, but their both genetically modified races who war on others. That's my point, I'm making here.

[Guanxii]

Ah, but their both genetically modified races who war on others. That's my point, I'm making here.

Yeah I get that. Good point well made I'm just stating that there are nuances.

[Orthiad]

If the Krogan were sensible, they'd prioritise sending fertile females along. If they also got a nicer planet than Tuchanka, they could probably do quite well in Andromeda even with the genophage.

The problem with that is: Do you really think Wrex or Wreav would allow fertile females to go on a mission that they are not sure will succeed and be left with fewer females in this Galaxy? Remember a fertile female is what is most valuable to the Krogans in the ME series.

[Vortex13]

Why do so many people think the Genophage is a plague wiping out the Krogans? The games tell us over and over that the Genophage is designed to maintain a healthy population by reducing Krogan fertility and birthrates.

 

 

This.

 

 

I was so sick of the retcon to the Genophage narrative in ME 2&3 (but mostly in 3). The Genophage wasn't what was killing the Krogan, it was their fatalistic nature and all round emo behavior that was leading to their decline. But come the third game, and the Genophage is suddenly this sterility plague that was only introduced by evil, racist Salarians & Turinans, and if you supported the decision made at the end of the Krogan Rebellions then you are just a racist who loves to see dead Krogan babies. 

 

 

Yeah lets forget all the crap the Krogan did; 3 garden worlds destroyed, attacking an unaffiliated (at the time) non-Council species, countless worlds environmentally wrecked due to uncontrolled expansion, etc; and focus only on how blameless the poor downtrodden Krogan are, and how cruel and racist the rest of the galaxy was towards them.

[The Twilight God]

We supposedly have a krogan as one of our core team members on a human-centric mission in Andromeda, taking place way down the line from the original trilogy. Sabotaging the cure obviously isn't for everyone, but I personally find that it fits the narrative of ME3 awesomely. Do you think this means that the genophage problem eventually takes care of itself? One of the leaks mentions a "krogan colony ship", which doesn't sound like something the krogan would be up for in the state I left them in last.

It's simply really. Your decisions aren't canon.

[Guanxii]

"The genophage infected us but it's not what's killing us".

The genophage attempts to force change by making the tratitional 'Krogan way of life' a death sentence without drastic changes. Call it what you want but it is gentle genocide no matter how you slice it. It would be like culling Salarians en masse for their propensity to dominate in science because their prowess in biological warfare threatens us all.

[Sartoz]

We supposedly have a krogan as one of our core team members on a human-centric mission in Andromeda, taking place way down the line from the original trilogy. Sabotaging the cure obviously isn't for everyone, but I personally find that it fits the narrative of ME3 awesomely. Do you think this means that the genophage problem eventually takes care of itself? One of the leaks mentions a "krogan colony ship", which doesn't sound like something the krogan would be up for in the state I left them in last.

                                                                                                    <<<<<<<<<<()>>>>>>>>>>

 

My speculation is that:

1. The genophage is not cured

2. The colony ship is populated with about 5 females for every 1 male... maybe even as much as a 10 to 1 ratio.

3. The above ratio supports the idea of female(s) as active combat members.

 

A Krogan colony ship captain, as part of the ARKCON "armada" , would seek out a world of their own... possibily running into resource acquisition conflicts with the Humans.  If there is a Krogan colony ship, right behind is a potential Asari and Salarian, maybe even a Turian. However,  this many carry over species from the MW  runs counter to what Andromeda is supposed to be...a fresh start, a new story, new characters, new location that avoids all unwanted MW baggage.

 

[Vortex13]

"The genophage infected us but it's not what's killing us".

The genophage attempts to force change by making the tratitional 'Krogan way of life' a death sentence without drastic changes. Call it what you want but it is gentle genocide no matter how you slice it.

 

 

From the looks of it, the traditional Krogan "way of life" was inimical to the rest of the Milky Way species, so in that light the Genophage deployment was necessary for the good of all the other species that inhabit the galaxy. And if the Krogan are unwilling to change tactics or adapt to evolving scenarios then it would be more of a self-inflicted genocide than anything else.

 

Besides the reduction or elimination of a sentient species is not something new in the Mass Effect universe; and that's excluding the Reapers and their cycles. The Rachni have had galaxy wide extermination attempts levied at them at least twice; by the Protheans and then by the Council races (three times if you count Shepard's choices); so the whole situation with the Krogan is not wholly unique to the setting. 

[Han Shot First]

All of the stuff in ME3 that implied that species may go extinct based on player actions should be quietly ignored. Besides those sort of decisions making proper sequels impossible to make, they never made much sense from an in universe perspective.

 

The Krogan weren't in imminent danger of extinction from the genophage. In fact at the start of the series the genophage had already been around for 2,000 years. The genophage greatly limited Krogan population growth, but it didn't entirely prevent new Krogan from being born. It was designed instead to keep the Krogan population stable, preventing a repeat of the overpopulation of Tuchanka that led to the Krogan Rebellion. Tuchanka had a population of 2.1 billion Krogan at the start of ME3. They're not even an endangered species. Having the Krogan go extinct because Shepard sabotaged the genophage cure would raise the question of how the species survived for two millenia without it. It would be an example of consequences being tacked on just for the sake of having consequences to a player decision, with no regard for whether or not those consequences actually make sense within the story.

 

On that note if there is ever a Milky Way sequel the results of the Rannoch decision should also be adjusted. Choosing either the Quarians or the Geth shouldn't cause the faction not chosen to completely vanish. The Geth were not even truly occupying the surface of Rannoch, and are software, inhabitating servers throughout the entirety of what used to be Quarian space. The loss of a single planet, particularly one it was said they had mostly left untouched, should not cause their complete annihilation. Likewise a Quarian defeat at Rannoch should not cause their extinction. There are multiple examples in the lore of fleets being able to fall back and flee through relays after suffering a defeat, including against the Reapers. Why couldn't some of the Quarian Migrant Fleet escape as well? Few real world battles end with the total annihilation of the defeated side, so why shouldn't that also be the case with Mass Effect's battles?

 

The Geth could be completely destroyed in the Destroy ending, but if Bioware ever creates a Milky Way sequel I think they should adjust the results of that as well. Giving entire factions varying fates, one of which can be total destruction, just guarantees that the faction will play no major role in future games no matter what the player chose. A player who did not choose Destroy would not have the Geth in their game either, because having the Geth play a major role would be too difficult to implement if all ending choices were imported. Synthesis or Control players would probably have the Geth disappearing behind the Perseus Veil to construct their Dyson Sphere, effectively disappearing from the story.

 

Instead of having the Geth completely disappear, I think it would be better for Bioware to adjust the results of Destroy and just have some rogue Quarians from the Koris faction rebuild the Geth in the aftermath. The impact of player choices should maybe instead determine how Geth characters interact with the player character (being more isolationist or distrustful of humans perhaps in a Destroy import) rather than resulting in varying live or die states.

[pkypereira]

I wouldn't say the Krogan are thriving as a species in Andromeda, we won't know the exact state of any of the races until the game comes out or until we get more info.

[Guanxii]

Jeez... You get a bit carried away and try to take over the galaxy one time and then get treated like a disease for the rest of time. Are all Germans Nazis?

I like the sound of a New Tuchanka. No Salarians or Turians allowed. Except Garrus of course.

[Vortex13]

All of the stuff in ME3 that implied that species may go extinct based on player actions should be quietly ignored. Besides those sort of decisions making proper sequels impossible to make, they never made much sense from an in universe perspective.

 

 

I agree. 

 

BioWare gave Shepard (and the players) way too much power over the setting to have any form of consistent narrative. Having the player deciding the fates of entire species just makes carrying forward the setting impossible without either making 12 different versions of the game every time a sequel is made; each reflecting the widely divergent choices; or they have to ignore/gloss over player choice.

 

If the choices that Shepard got to make were more grounded, then it wouldn't have been such an issue to reconcile the various plot points (IMO).

[Vortex13]

Jeez... You get a bit carried away and try to take over the galaxy one time and then get treated like a disease for the rest of time. Are all Germans Nazis?

 

 

No, but if your average German citizen admitted to no wrong doing on their county's part, and that the majority opinion of all German people after the war was that they would certainly kill the Allies if they ever got the chance on top of refusing to acclimate into international society then you couldn't really blame the rest of world for looking to keep them in check and at arms length. 

 

Besides, its not like the Galaxy inflicted the Genophage and then left the Krogan to rot on Tuchunka; a world the Krogan destroyed themselves. The Turians regularly supply the clans with foodstuffs and the Salarians have been maintaining the Shroud which has allowed the Krogan home world to be remotely livable. If the rest of the galaxy hated the Krogan so much they would have just killed them off instead of trying to feed and shelter them.

[Kabooooom]

Is that implied? That we're on some kind of mass-migration that came underway before the reaper war? The krogan weren't fit to colonize anything before the end of the third game though, and that's only if you cure the genophage.

Not implied, but highly plausible. We predicted the move in setting to Andromeda over a year ago, as well as the general premise of an ark at the same time (still unconfirmed) solely due to the observation that Bioware wanted to avoid ME3's endings.

And whaddyaknow, we now have Andromeda confirmed and evidence that they are travelling there on an ark ship (such as the word "Ark" in the destination screen on the trailer).

So I think it is waaaay more likely than not that bioware will make the ship leave before the end of ME3.

[Iakus]

It's simply really. Your decisions aren't canon.

Player choice is important

 

Unless it interferes with the "art"

[Han Shot First]

I agree. 

 

BioWare gave Shepard (and the players) way too much power over the setting to have any form of consistent narrative. Having the player deciding the fates of entire species just makes carrying forward the setting impossible without either making 12 different versions of the game every time a sequel is made; each reflecting the widely divergent choices; or they have to ignore/gloss over player choice.

 

If the choices that Shepard got to make were more grounded, then it wouldn't have been such an issue to reconcile the various plot points (IMO).

 

I like to use Dragon Age: Origins as an example of how the Mass Effect devs should have handled those sort of choices. The Warden for example has a massive impact on the future of Orzammar in his or her role as kingmaker (...and then there's the whole Anvil plotline), but none of the choices result in dwarves going extinct.

 

On that note the ME devs should have also drew inspiration from DA:O when crafting their ending. The finale of DA:O didn't involve the Warden having a chat with the archdemon, where the archdemon presents three choices. 1) Kill me, but all elves will die, 2) Become an archdemon yourself, or 3) Turn everyone into a darkspawn.

[Iakus]

I like to use Dragon Age: Origins as an example of how the Mass Effect devs should have handled those sort of choices. The Warden for example has a massive impact on the future of Orzammar in his or her role as kingmaker (...and then there's the whole Anvil plotline), but none of the choices result in dwarves going extinct.

 

On that note the ME devs should have also drew inspiration from DA:O when crafting their ending. The finale of DA:O didn't involve the Warden having a chat with the archdemon, where the archdemon presents three choices. 1) Kill me, but all elves will die, 2) Become an archdemon yourself, or 3) Turn everyone into a darkspawn.

Or refuse any of those dumb@$$ choices, the archdemon goes "Frak You!" and all of Thedas dies

[Vortex13]

I like to use Dragon Age: Origins as an example of how the Mass Effect devs should have handled those sort of choices. The Warden for example has a massive impact on the future of Orzammar in his or her role as kingmaker (...and then there's the whole Anvil plotline), but none of the choices result in dwarves going extinct.

 

On that note the ME devs should have also drew inspiration from DA:O when crafting their ending. The finale of DA:O didn't involve the Warden having a chat with the archdemon, where the archdemon presents three choices. 1) Kill me, but all elves will die, 2) Become an archdemon yourself, or 3) Turn everyone into a darkspawn.

 

 

Exactly.

 

For example, Shepard should have never been given the power to kill the Rachni in ME 1. The Queen should have escaped the facility regardless, its just that Shepard would have had the option to call in Council hunter killer squads or let her leave quietly and then inform the Council later. This in turn determining how much the Queen would trust Shepard in the subsequent titles. That way you maintain a respect of player choice while at the same time not drastically altering the fabric of the setting and it's inhabitants. 

 

Its when BioWare wants to give the player the power over life and death with allies or whole species that we get the whole 'Not Rachni' or 'Not-Legion/Mordin' situations, as well as the reduction of all ME 2 squad mates to brief cameos.

[Han Shot First]

Exactly.

 

For example, Shepard should have never been given the power to kill the Rachni in ME 1. The Queen should have escaped the facility regardless, its just that Shepard would have had the option to call in Council hunter killer squads or let her leave quietly and then inform the Council later. This in turn determining how much the Queen would trust Shepard in the subsequent titles. That way you maintain a respect of player choice while at the same time not drastically altering the fabric of the setting and it's inhabitants. 

 

Its when BioWare wants to give the player the power over life and death with allies or whole species that we get the whole 'Not Rachni' or 'Not-Legion/Mordin' situations, as well as the reduction of all ME 2 squad mates to brief cameos.

 

That's a great point about the Rachni. 

[SentinelMacDeath]

All of the stuff in ME3 that implied that species may go extinct based on player actions should be quietly ignored. Besides those sort of decisions making proper sequels impossible to make, they never made much sense from an in universe perspective.

 

The Krogan weren't in imminent danger of extinction from the genophage. In fact at the start of the series the genophage had already been around for 2,000 years. The genophage greatly limited Krogan population growth, but it didn't entirely prevent new Krogan from being born. It was designed instead to keep the Krogan population stable, preventing a repeat of the overpopulation of Tuchanka that led to the Krogan Rebellion. Tuchanka had a population of 2.1 billion Krogan at the start of ME3. They're not even an endangered species. Having the Krogan go extinct because Shepard sabotaged the genophage cure would raise the question of how the species survived for two millenia without it. It would be an example of consequences being tacked on just for the sake of having consequences to a player decision, with no regard for whether or not those consequences actually make sense within the story.

 

They survived for 2 Millenia because there was no Reaper War going on. You can blow up like half of their population by not disarming the Turian bomb too.

They might not fight the endangered species model we as humans have set up but if you combine the hostile living environment, infighting, wars and the Genophage ... there is no way they could recover.

 

What I'd really like to know is if the destruction of the Shroud will have an impact on Tuchanka since it stabilized the atmosphere after the nuclear war. 

[Just Here For Popcorns]

Considering this new game is like completely new ME in different system with 'Shepard like he/she didn't existed' I wouldn't read much into anything regarding previous ME games mind you, because as I said two different games despite being same franchise.

[Pasquale1234]

They survived for 2 Millenia because there was no Reaper War going on. You can blow up like half of their population by not disarming the Turian bomb too.
They might not fight the endangered species model we as humans have set up but if you combine the hostile living environment, infighting, wars and the Genophage ... there is no way they could recover.

IIRC, a lot of the thought process behind the genophage predicted that krogan would be less apt to fight due to their inability to replenish their numbers. Even so, the galaxy still had plenty of krogan mercs, bounty hunters, and the like roaming around and getting killed. And clan wars, right on Tuchanka.

Really, if they could just keep the krogan on Tuchanka and quit killing each other, their population might see a steady growth rate.
 

What I'd really like to know is if the destruction of the Shroud will have an impact on Tuchanka since it stabilized the atmosphere after the nuclear war.

I always figured it would need to be replaced - though it's possible that enough time has elapsed that the need for it is not as great.

[SentinelMacDeath]

IIRC, a lot of the thought process behind the genophage predicted that krogan would be less apt to fight due to their inability to replenish their numbers. Even so, the galaxy still had plenty of krogan mercs, bounty hunters, and the like roaming around and getting killed. And clan wars, right on Tuchanka.

Really, if they could just keep the krogan on Tuchanka and quit killing each other, their population might see a steady growth rate.
 

I always figured it would need to be replaced - though it's possible that enough time has elapsed that the need for it is not as great.

 

Imagine they'd still need the Shroud ... the Salarians are out of the picture because you cured the Genophage so they wouldn't help with the Shroud, you let the bomb explode on Tuchanka so the Krogan hate the Turians again (especially so with Urdnot Wreav in charge) .. that would make for an interesting story ... 

[Ahglock]

Without the genophage what numbers are we looking at here for the krogan. It reduced it from a 1000 to 1. So it's current billion population with compounding interest of 2-3 generations since the genophage would be what trillions maybe quadrillions by now. Yeah war and violence decreases it, maybe not enough females for a pure 1000 times compounding equation but you are looking at 3ish generations until they overwhelm the Galaxy. And while they live 1000s of years it's not thousands of years per generation. Adulthood comes much quicker than that. How to you really put something like that in the Galaxy and expect it to function. They kind of need it not to be cured or at least retcon the birth rates for andromeda even if the colony ship has a low initial population.