189 réponses à ce sujet

[Beerfish]

Why do so many people think the Genophage is a plague wiping out the Krogans? The games tell us over and over that the Genophage is designed to maintain a healthy population by reducing Krogan fertility and birthrates.

Krogans are very self destructive so one would hope that the Salarians and one in particular because others would have gotten it wrong really looked hard at this question.  Making a fairly peaceful society pop neutral would be a lot easier than the Krogans who can easily go off and drop a bomb on thei9r planet and wipe out 1.2 the pop.  also the fact that all of the out of work krogan are running around as bounty hunters .

 

There has to be a pretty fine line between the pop getting away again and it race fading out.

[SentinelMacDeath]

Well, Tuchanka itself took care of most of the offspring. Like Shep said, bugs have a lot of offspring too but most won't make it into the adult stage. It's not really the most habitable planet with the Thresher Maws and all. Uplifting a species that's not ready for it is always a bad idea and the Krogan were absolutely not ready for it. 

[Pasquale1234]

Without the genophage what numbers are we looking at here for the krogan. It reduced it from a 1000 to 1. So it's current billion population with compounding interest of 2-3 generations since the genophage would be what trillions maybe quadrillions by now. Yeah war and violence decreases it, maybe not enough females for a pure 1000 times compounding equation but you are looking at 3ish generations until they overwhelm the Galaxy. And while they live 1000s of years it's not thousands of years per generation. Adulthood comes much quicker than that. How to you really put something like that in the Galaxy and expect it to function. They kind of need it not to be cured or at least retcon the birth rates for andromeda even if the colony ship has a low initial population.

That depends on the size of the initial population along with the number of habitable planets found.

As near as I can tell, the krogan were pre-spaceflight when the salarians uplifted them. They still aren't exactly known for their scientific or technical competence, and did not have their own ships.

It's hard to say how they might function in Andromeda.

[Vortex13]

Without the genophage what numbers are we looking at here for the krogan. It reduced it from a 1000 to 1. So it's current billion population with compounding interest of 2-3 generations since the genophage would be what trillions maybe quadrillions by now. Yeah war and violence decreases it, maybe not enough females for a pure 1000 times compounding equation but you are looking at 3ish generations until they overwhelm the Galaxy. And while they live 1000s of years it's not thousands of years per generation. Adulthood comes much quicker than that. How to you really put something like that in the Galaxy and expect it to function. They kind of need it not to be cured or at least retcon the birth rates for andromeda even if the colony ship has a low initial population.

 

 

Yeah the Krogan birth rate is all over the place. If the numbers we have now are cannon then the Krogan are Tyranids of the Mass Effect universe and as just a big a threat, if not moreso. 

 

Plus the Krogan have shown no restrictions when it comes to population control either; even the Rachni know when its time to cull their own numbers.

[Ahglock]

That depends on the size of the initial population along with the number of habitable planets found.

As near as I can tell, the krogan were pre-spaceflight when the salarians uplifted them. They still aren't exactly known for their scientific or technical competence, and did not have their own ships.

It's hard to say how they might function in Andromeda.

Even with a small initial group with 1000 kids per birth you are looking at 3-4 generations to overpopulate a planet. And that's being optimistic. Whatever habitable worlds there would be krogan worlds exclusively before other groups could colonize a single continent. The birth rate for 1 ton near indestructible monsters is just absurd.

[Iakus]

The problem with the genophage is that it reduced their population without doing anything to change krogan outlook or culture to compensate for that.  So you have the 1 in one thousand live berths with the same brutish violent attitude on life.  Sure it stopped the Krogan Rebellions, and was in fact probably necessary at the time.  But it also put the krogan as a species into a death spiral unless leaders like Wrex and Eve rose to the challenge to actually kick teh krogan into aspiring to be something more than warlords.

[Ahglock]

What's worse one species in a death spiral they can pull themselves out of or every other species dead?

[Iakus]

What's worse one species in a death spiral they can pull themselves out of or every other species dead?

That's why I said the genophage was likely needed at the time.  But it wasn't (or shouldn't have been) a permanent solution

[SentinelMacDeath]

I'd just give the harshest planets to the Krogan, they'd appreciate the challenge and the offspring would be kept in check, probably. The council would still have to keep an eye on them though. 

 

I'd never cure the Genophage with Wreav in charge, that's just a disaster waiting to happen

[Iakus]

I'd just give the harshest planets to the Krogan, they'd appreciate the challenge and the offspring would be kept in check, probably. The council would still have to keep an eye on them though. 

 

I'd never cure the Genophage with Wreav in charge, that's just a disaster waiting to happen

Interestingly, If Wreav is in charge and Eve is dead, sabotaging the genophage goes from a renegade to a paragon decision 

[Ahglock]

That's why I said the genophage was likely needed at the time. But it wasn't (or shouldn't have been) a permanent solution

I'm not sure of that. How does that absurd of a birth rate ever function with large creatures? Unless they curb their own birth rate they will overwhelm local populations in a few generations and with space flight overwhelm all neighboring systems soon after. Even non violent krogan would overwhelm everyone else out of a pure resource requirement.

[SentinelMacDeath]

The Genophage was just a solution to the mess the Salarians made, you make one bad decision and it just snowballs into an even bigger mess. The Krogan should have never been uplifted to begin with. The Krogan are basically an invasive species. I have high hopes for Bakara and Wrex to turn the tide and make the Krogan great again without death and destruction in their wake but who knows ... I'm pretty sure the Salarians are already working on something 

[Drone223]

The problem with the genophage is that it reduced their population without doing anything to change krogan outlook or culture to compensate for that.  So you have the 1 in one thousand live berths with the same brutish violent attitude on life.  Sure it stopped the Krogan Rebellions, and was in fact probably necessary at the time.  But it also put the krogan as a species into a death spiral unless leaders like Wrex and Eve rose to the challenge to actually kick teh krogan into aspiring to be something more than warlords.

Indeed the reaper war only made things worse.

[Broganisity]

[Malanek]

Why do so many people think the Genophage is a plague wiping out the Krogans? The games tell us over and over that the Genophage is designed to maintain a healthy population by reducing Krogan fertility and birthrates.

It is designed to keep numbers stable based on an established population. If you have fifty million Krogan and only one in a thousand females can give birth, the numbers can be stable. If you only have five hundred Krogan on an Arkship then you may have a problem.

 

Of course we just don't have much information. How do we know the Krogan population is thriving? Just because we have a Krogan squadmate???? We had a Prothean squadmate in ME3.

 

Krogan fertility may once again be a delicate subject in Andromeda. Assuming only a bunch make the trip, the existing Genophage is far too harsh to allow the numbers to swell to an established population. But of course if the fertility levels are natural, Krogan would almost instantly overwhelm all other races from the milkyway.

 

It was and is an interesting issue and I think it should be dealt with again but this time looking from the other side. We saw the Krogan as figures of sympathy in ME 1-3, a broken species subjected to population control from other species. This time I feel the genophage should somehow be cured and their population should explode and let the player see and decide how to deal with the situation the Salarians/Turians were originally faced with.

[Pasquale1234]

I'm not sure of that. How does that absurd of a birth rate ever function with large creatures? Unless they curb their own birth rate they will overwhelm local populations in a few generations and with space flight overwhelm all neighboring systems soon after. Even non violent krogan would overwhelm everyone else out of a pure resource requirement.

We don't really know how they managed prior to the uplift - except that they'd created nuclear winter on Tuchanka.

Due to the ultra high birth rate, I'd have to guess that they suffered a very high attrition rate. When very few members of a species make it to adulthood and start reproducing, natural selection tends to favor those who are the most prolific. Even before the in-fighting started, many krogan lives were likely ended by other predators on Tuchanka. That is a likely cause of their warlike nature - a constant struggle for survival.

Despite being a(n in)famous warlord, Okeer saw the value in quality over quantity, and actively pursued that path in his breeding program. Were other krogan to start putting more effort into giving their children better quality lives, perhaps they'd be more willing to restrict the quantity of offspring they produce.

[straykat]

I'd just give the harshest planets to the Krogan, they'd appreciate the challenge and the offspring would be kept in check, probably. The council would still have to keep an eye on them though. 

 

I'd never cure the Genophage with Wreav in charge, that's just a disaster waiting to happen

 

That's the Okeer/male Shaman path basically.. which they delberately ignored in ME3. Or rather, a much better writer did it. Brian Kindregan. Among other things.

 

 

Seriously though, it'll be good for them

[Kabooooom]

I'm not sure of that. How does that absurd of a birth rate ever function with large creatures? Unless they curb their own birth rate they will overwhelm local populations in a few generations and with space flight overwhelm all neighboring systems soon after. Even non violent krogan would overwhelm everyone else out of a pure resource requirement.

This is why I find the Krogan so interesting. They are an r-selected, large species who presumably have such a high birth rate because on pre-nuclear holocaust Tuchanka, the harsh ecological environment meant that the vast majority of their offspring succumbed to predation, disease, etc.

Then, they reach a technological renaissance, their population explodes, their innately violent nature comes to a head and they nuke themselves back to the stone age.

Then, the Salarians uplift them because they specifically recognize that their unique biology makes them invaluable as rapidly reproducing shock troops. An army in a generation.

Then, after the war, everyone is surprised that they start overpopulating planets??

They should have seen this coming from a light year away.

[SentinelMacDeath]

I could see the males of rivaling clans go after the newborns ... maybe even eat them .. who knows. Nature is cruel but effective

[Master Warder Z_]

I could see the males of rivaling clans go after the newborns ... maybe even eat them .. who knows. Nature is cruel but effective

 

Engineered nature is better.

 

Especially when it's ability to breed is cut out.

[straykat]

Engineered nature is better.

 

You might as well be a control/synthesis/Reaper fan then.

 

In which case, it doesn't matter what you do with the Krogan. Only destroy has to actually worry about the future here.

[Master Warder Z_]

You might as well be a control/synthesis/Reaper fan then.

 

In which case, it doesn't matter what you do with the Krogan. Only destroy has to actually worry about the future here.

 

[straykat]

 

Why am I not surprised?

[SentinelMacDeath]

 

NEVER! 

[Ahglock]

This is why I find the Krogan so interesting. They are an r-selected, large species who presumably have such a high birth rate because on pre-nuclear holocaust Tuchanka, the harsh ecological environment meant that the vast majority of their offspring succumbed to predation, disease, etc.

Then, they reach a technological renaissance, their population explodes, their innately violent nature comes to a head and they nuke themselves back to the stone age.

Then, the Salarians uplift them because they specifically recognize that their unique biology makes them invaluable as rapidly reproducing shock troops. An army in a generation.

Then, after the war, everyone is surprised that they start overpopulating planets??

They should have seen this coming from a light year away.

There are some really cool story hooks they can pull from this with some tough choices for the PC. But I still go with bioware was smoking some serious crack when they tossed their numbers out. It's a thousand over a year so it's I guess laying eggs or something a few a day as I can't fathom 1000 being birthed at once due to sheer volume issues. But 1000 is just so large that I have no idea how they even attempt to broach the subject of their rapid growth. its like that really bad Mcguyver episode with the ants but where each ant kicks the ass of 10 of your men.