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[AresKeith]

 

Stealing this

[Lonely Heart Poet]

Maybe this has been discussed already many times, but even with the genophage and ongoing Reaper war there still be krogans left.

[straykat]

There are some really cool story hooks they can pull from this with some tough choices for the PC. But I still go with bioware was smoking some serious crack when they tossed their numbers out. It's a thousand over a year so it's I guess laying eggs or something a few a day as I can't fathom 1000 being birthed at once due to sheer volume issues. But 1000 is just so large that I have no idea how they even attempt to broach the subject of their rapid growth. its like that really bad Mcguyver episode with the ants but where each ant kicks the ass of 10 of your men.

 

I'm pretty sure crack wasn't involved. This happens on a normal basis.

 

 

I also think they made it so overwhelmingly problematic that it encourages people to see the ideal in things like Synthesis or control. Reapers are the one stop solution to everything. If people want to preserve life in the most goody goody ways, they're also discouraged from any notion of chaos. Same goes for AI.

[SentinelMacDeath]

I'm pretty sure crack wasn't involved. This happens on a normal basis.

 

 

I also think they made it so overwhelmingly problematic that it encourages people to see the ideal in things like Synthesis or control. Reapers are the one stop solution to everything. If people want to preserve life in the most goody goody ways, they're also discouraged from any notion of chaos. Same goes for AI.

 

there's no order without chaos so the Reapers can suck it. No longer on the top of the food chain.

 

How long do Krogan eggs take to hatch and are they edible? So many questions ...

[Kabooooom]

There are some really cool story hooks they can pull from this with some tough choices for the PC. But I still go with bioware was smoking some serious crack when they tossed their numbers out. It's a thousand over a year so it's I guess laying eggs or something a few a day as I can't fathom 1000 being birthed at once due to sheer volume issues. But 1000 is just so large that I have no idea how they even attempt to broach the subject of their rapid growth. its like that really bad Mcguyver episode with the ants but where each ant kicks the ass of 10 of your men.

Well, there are r-selected species on Earth that produce thousands of offspring in a single clutch. The vast majority die, there is zero parental care involved, and none of them are a particularly large species with a long lifespan.

So, I guess I always just figured Krogan lay masses of super small, newly fertilized eggs rather than laying 1,000 large reptile eggs or something.

But yeah, its kind of dumb.

[Arcian]

Can you really blame them here?

Absolutely. Every day for the rest of my life.
 

What other choice did they have?

"In the light of the overwhelmingly negative feedback about the endings of Mass Effect 3, we have decided to release a free-of-charge DLC pack that will change the ending to better reflect the franchise-wide choices of the player and alter the ending choices themselves to enable future stories to take place in the Milky Way galaxy without having to account for the galaxy-wide consequences included in the original ending choices."
 

No it is never going to make much sense, but prequels were something people didn't want (they polled people) and it is impossible to continue from that third act in ME3, without putting space and time between it and the new game.

Impossible? Pfft. Other games have done the exact same thing, so don't come here and tell us it's impossible. What they needed to do, had the chance to do with the Extended Cut, but never did, was to completely rehaul the endings and purge the abomination Casey and Super MAC's sold us.
 

Do I wish Mac Walters had the integrity and the honesty to say, "yeah I screwed up, I should have done better, I am going to try to make this the best ME game ever"? Sure I do. I do not even know if ascension/synthesis was something Casey Hudson REQUIRED from the ending. It might be.

The "Lots of speculation from everyone!" note makes it very clear the pretentiousness was intended. Moreover, Casey admitted to being inspired by Deus Ex Human Revolution, which was released just a couple of months before ME3 and had virtually identical endings from a thematical standpoint. Not to mention the endings of the original Deus Ex, which Mass Effect 3 basically copied verbatim. There's even a video mocking just how similar ME3's endings are to Deus Ex's.
 

We have ascension hints throughout the trilogy and even the capital ship is named DESTINY ASCENSION.

Not even Mr Fantastic could reach those straws you're grasping for.
 

Maybe Hudson wanted to make sure (in his mind) that this series was unable to continue and he was being petty and this was his baby and with that ending? Yeah where do you go from that. SERIES DONE. When Supermac opens his mouth and claims ME 3's ending was loved by many and that the people who didn't like it are a minority? Welp, yeah he is just delusional or being dishonest.

Super MAC doesn't care about the fans. Never has, never will. Mass Effect is just an ego-stroking exercise for him. And you'd sooner squeeze blood from a rock than getting an admission of guilt out of Super MAC.
 

I think at this point it is obvious we are never getting ME 3 endings changes.

Not to the game proper. When they go for the inevitable remake a couple of years down the line, that generation of devs may have the spine to undo the mistakes of their predecessors.
 

Whatever. We already modded them. If Mac screws up this game to? Yeah he should be gone. If this game pushes synthesis with robotics all over again like the third game did HARDCORE, we know Casey Hudson was not to blame for ME 3.

Super MAC doesn't have the competence to justify his employment with BioWare. His level of influence was achieved solely because of his friendship with Casey, as made evident in the Final Hours app. Cronyism at its finest.

As for Casey, he was definitely to blame for ME3. But he was only half of it. Casey's gone now, but the question remains whether he was the better half or the worse half of their disaster duo. I'm leaning towards the better half - after all, Casey has plenty of good games to his name, whereas Super MAC is universally reviled for every last thing he has made.
 

The decision to distance this game from the original though? Smartest move he has made so far. Will it ever be perfect, or make perfect sense, or give weight to the firs trilogy? Nope.

Andromeda is a lazy copout. They want to continue the franchise but refuses to invalidate the endings - under the pretense of caring for player-choice. Yet player-choice throughout the entire FRANCHISE is invalidated if the old galaxy is abandoned thanks to the endings... so in the end, they don't actually care about player choice at all.

And if all previous games are invalidated, why bother calling it Mass Effect? Make a new IP instead of trying to milk Mass Effect's market recognition. As I've said for a long time, a Mass Effect game set in Andromeda is Mass Effect in name only. It's going to feel like playing a fanfic.
 

There was really nothing else they could do though.

Except they could have just straight-up invalidated the original endings and made new ones. Actual, real new endings, not that pathetic halfmeasure they cobbled together and named the "Extended Cut".

[Arcian]

Exactly.
 
For example, Shepard should have never been given the power to kill the Rachni in ME 1. The Queen should have escaped the facility regardless, its just that Shepard would have had the option to call in Council hunter killer squads or let her leave quietly and then inform the Council later. This in turn determining how much the Queen would trust Shepard in the subsequent titles. That way you maintain a respect of player choice while at the same time not drastically altering the fabric of the setting and it's inhabitants.

I tried my hand at something similar while doing a trilogy rewrite. Basically, instead of choosing whether the queen lives or dies, Shepard gets to choose whether to set her free or hand her over to the Council, who opts to preserve but control the rachni species by moving her to Suen to live under Citadel observation 24/7, ensuring the rachni doesn't grow unchecked so they can threaten the galaxy again.

Naturally, if you released her, she trusts you, and if you gave her to the Council, she doesn't. And come ME3, if she was freed, she rides in with her forces to help Shepard defeat the Reapers, but some of her forces have been captured and indoctrinated, causing rachni husks to show up in warzones. On the other hand, if you gave her to the Council, she's burrowed deep below Suen's surface with her children, refusing to come up. Shepard doesn't get any rachni forces, but won't encounter any rachni husks either.
 

Its when BioWare wants to give the player the power over life and death with allies or whole species that we get the whole 'Not Rachni' or 'Not-Legion/Mordin' situations, as well as the reduction of all ME 2 squad mates to brief cameos.

Beyond voiceover costs there wasn't really anything stopping the ME2 squaddies from being ME3 squaddies.

[Master Warder Z_]

;_; Robin Saches

[Vortex13]

Well, there are r-selected species on Earth that produce thousands of offspring in a single clutch. The vast majority die, there is zero parental care involved, and none of them are a particularly large species with a long lifespan.

So, I guess I always just figured Krogan lay masses of super small, newly fertilized eggs rather than laying 1,000 large reptile eggs or something.

But yeah, its kind of dumb.

 

 

Yeah really dumb.

 

So if the Krogan are an r-selected species, why is the game trying to get us to feel for them in human terms regarding their children? A species built around such rapid birth rates wouldn't place any real emphasis on the individual, at least not until they reach sexual maturity. Why should the narrative try and tug our heartstrings to care for the thousands of dead Krogan babies if they were going to have just as much, if not many, many more dead Krogan babies over the course of their natural development?

[Vortex13]

I tried my hand at something similar while doing a trilogy rewrite. Basically, instead of choosing whether the queen lives or dies, Shepard gets to choose whether to set her free or hand her over to the Council, who opts to preserve but control the rachni species by moving her to Suen to live under Citadel observation 24/7, ensuring the rachni doesn't grow unchecked so they can threaten the galaxy again.

Naturally, if you released her, she trusts you, and if you gave her to the Council, she doesn't. And come ME3, if she was freed, she rides in with her forces to help Shepard defeat the Reapers, but some of her forces have been captured and indoctrinated, causing rachni husks to show up in warzones. On the other hand, if you gave her to the Council, she's burrowed deep below Suen's surface with her children, refusing to come up. Shepard doesn't get any rachni forces, but won't encounter any rachni husks either.

 

That would have been cool to see. If nothing else, it would have been better than allowing the player to wipe out an entire species because "choices" to only have to back pedal and reduce the decision to practically nothing because the writers wanted to do something else with the Rachni.

 

 

Beyond voiceover costs there wasn't really anything stopping the ME2 squaddies from being ME3 squaddies.

 

 

With Kaiden and Ashely you are guaranteed to have one of them survive. With the ME 2 crew however, you could have all but Smara die and still make it to the third game. This level of diversion in narrative meant that BioWare would have to reduce the second game's companions to brief cameos or replace them with near identical "Not" versions of themselves in order to do anything worthwhile with those characters.

 

Well that or release 12 different versions of ME 3 with the story built around squaddie X,Y, & Z surviving the suicide mission.

[Halfdan The Menace]

They would be a worthy opponent rather than allies. But it would be boring at the same time since we have already fought so many rogue krogan warlords in the previous games.

[Master Warder Z_]

Well that or release 12 different versions of ME 3 with the story built around squaddie X,Y, & Z surviving the suicide mission.

 

Or ya know, make a frigate have a frigate sized crew and not like...a tenth of one, even with all the DLC companions included I would be hard pressed to see how it would be a stretch for all the companions to actually be viable again, save perhaps maybe Wrex (for plot or other reasons), Mordin or Thane.

[Kabooooom]

Yeah really dumb.

So if the Krogan are an r-selected species, why is the game trying to get us to feel for them in human terms regarding their children? A species built around such rapid birth rates wouldn't place any real emphasis on the individual, at least not until they reach sexual maturity. Why should the narrative try and tug our heartstrings to care for the thousands of dead Krogan babies if they were going to have just as much, if not many, many more dead Krogan babies over the course of their natural development?

Yeah, especially because the story makes subtle nods to why they seem to be r-selected. Tuchanka was described as an "evolutionary crucible where life fed upon life" and that "even many species of plants are carnivorous".

So, probably there were always "piles of dead Krogan babies". And indeed, the genophage was said to have stabilized their population to pre-industrial levels, which directly suggests that most Krogan offspring always died anyways, and that industrialization and science (combined with their aggressive nature) was the problem.

I never got the impression that ME1 and 2 really painted the genophage in that monstrous of a light, in the sense that what the Salarians did actually made sense. I never felt particular sympathy for the Krogan. But then ME3 pulled the heartstrings with it. So many ill-placed feelz.

[Master Warder Z_]

[Vortex13]

Yeah, especially because the story makes subtle nods to why they seem to be r-selected. Tuchanka was described as an "evolutionary crucible where life fed upon life" and that "even many species of plants are carnivorous".

So, probably there were always "piles of dead Krogan babies". And indeed, the genophage was said to have stabilized their population to pre-industrial levels, which directly suggests that most Krogan offspring always died anyways, and that industrialization and science (combined with their aggressive nature) was the problem.

I never got the impression that ME1 and 2 really painted the genophage in that monstrous of a light, in the sense that what the Salarians did actually made sense. I never felt particular sympathy for the Krogan. But then ME3 pulled the heartstrings with it. So many ill-placed feelz.

 

 

I liked the nuance in ME 1 about the Genophage, and I saw how it's deployment was completely justified, but then ME 3 comes in an tries to make the situation feel like 1960's racial discrimination, or the Holocaust; trying to tie human politics and emotions to a very alien scenario; with the "evil" Turians and Salarians beating up on the poor, blameless Krogan.

[Master Warder Z_]

I liked the nuance in ME 1 about the Genophage, and I saw how it's deployment was completely justified, but then ME 3 comes in an tries to make the situation feel like 1960's racial discrimination, or the Holocaust; trying to tie human politics and emotions to a very alien scenario; with the "evil" Turians and Salarians beating up on the poor, blameless Krogan.

 

I did notice that the Krogan rebellion was only mentioned a handful of times during ME3

[Vortex13]

I did notice that the Krogan rebellion was only mentioned a handful of times during ME3

 

 

Only a handful, and never with any detail on the role the Krogan played in their rebellion. The game likes to make a huge deal about the Turian bomb on Tuchunka but makes no mention of the 3 Turian garden worlds that are, as of ME 3, still uninhabitable.

 

You certainly won't hear Wrex admit to any wrongdoing on part of the Krogan, though that is par the course for his character, he was shifting blame and telling outright lies about the Rebellions and Genophage as well as the reasons for its deployment as far back as ME 1.

[Pasquale1234]

Well, there are r-selected species on Earth that produce thousands of offspring in a single clutch. The vast majority die, there is zero parental care involved, and none of them are a particularly large species with a long lifespan.

So, I guess I always just figured Krogan lay masses of super small, newly fertilized eggs rather than laying 1,000 large reptile eggs or something.

Aside from their overall high birth date and EDI's comment about a fertile female's ability to produce as many as 1,000 eggs per year - was there anything else in the game that gave you that impression?

That Wrex and Wreav were brood brothers would imply that multiples from the same egg clutch could make it to adulthood.

OTOH, we have Eve talking about her child not drawing breath, and being stillborn. If you cure the genophage, the ending slides show a krogan couple holding a baby and another with a small child.

So - I don't really know what to think about krogan reproductive habits.

[Kabooooom]

Aside from their overall high birth date and EDI's comment about a fertile female's ability to produce as many as 1,000 eggs per year - was there anything else in the game that gave you that impression?

That Wrex and Wreav were brood brothers would imply that multiples from the same egg clutch could make it to adulthood.

OTOH, we have Eve talking about her child not drawing breath, and being stillborn. If you cure the genophage, the ending slides show a krogan couple holding a baby and another with a small child.

So - I don't really know what to think about krogan reproductive habits.

Yes, although it isn't explicitly stated, there are several lines of dialogue throughout the trilogy that strongly suggest Krogans lay eggs. It would take me awhile to dig them up, but I'm positive.

And when ME3 came out, I remember people discussing their confusion about the things Eve said as they seemingly contradicted prior descriptions of Krogan reproduction in the first two games.

I think they haven't really been consistent in their description, but when ME3 contradicts 1 and 2, I just chalk it up to bad writing and forgetting their own lore...because it wouldn't be the first time.

[Master Warder Z_]

Only a handful, and never with any detail on the role the Krogan played in their rebellion. The game likes to make a huge deal about the Turian bomb on Tuchunka but makes no mention of the 3 Turian garden worlds that are, as of ME 3, still uninhabitable.

 

I admit I do enjoy the Krogan partially because they employed the tactics of another, far older faction I enjoyed.

 

The tactic in question? Colony Drops, well in essence anyway. The Krogan presumably used space debris like asteroids or alike towed them into orbit and just let them descend. To spectacular effect, that in all likelihood killed anyone within the impact radius as it destroyed the site. Hell drop a big enough rock from orbit and you can kill a planet, although Zeon (the faction I enjoy) didn't do this or at least their incarnations that I enjoyed, didn't employ anything large enough to destroy more then portions of a continent.

 

This particular tactic was employed originally by the Principality of Zeon during the OYW(One Year War) of 0079 to strike at the Federation's main command base in South America but due to damage done to the platform during its descent it veered off course and struck Sidney Australia...to the obvious effect. It impacted with roughly 500 megaton's worth of energy or the equal to basically detonating sixty or so conventional thermonuclear warheads or five hundred million tons of TNT. It vaporized miles of Australia and by the year 0083 almost thirty square miles of what had once been beach front property was now underwater.

 

Spoiler

 

Of course this tactic would be repeated by Zeon due to them having no shortage of colonies to employ given they ****ing live in space. But yes, two more colony drops would occur in the canon UC universe one in 0083 which struck North America and...in the video below can witness the impact of another in the Neo Zeon War of 0088. This time Dublin Ireland over in the jolly old UK.

 

Spoiler

 

Seriously, Colony Drops Work.

 

Hence my approval of Krogan usage.

[Vortex13]

I don't question the effectiveness of the tactics, I am more annoyed with how the Krogan; and the narrative of the game; seemingly forgets that these tactics were used, and that is was a big part of the reason why the Genophage was deployed.

 

Which in addition to being a horrendous tactic to use on a species that the Krogan didn't even have a grievance against; their whole reason for instigating the Rebellions was that they wanted more planets, and here they are destroying three of them. Real smart move there 

[Wulfram]

Dropping asteroids seems over-complicated to me. Just fly towards the planet at a decent fraction of the speed of light and fire your main gun, you should do plenty of damage.

[Vortex13]

Dropping asteroids seems over-complicated to me. Just fly towards the planet at a decent fraction of the speed of light and fire your main gun, you should do plenty of damage.

 

 

Obviously that doesn't work, otherwise the allied fleet would have literally vaporized Earth in the opening salvos of their liberation of it from the Reapers. 

[Master Warder Z_]

I don't question the effectiveness of the tactics, I am more annoyed with how the Krogan; and the narrative of the game; seemingly forgets that these tactics were used, and that is was a big part of the reason why the Genophage was deployed.

 

Which in addition to being a horrendous tactic to use on a species that the Krogan didn't even have a grievance against; their whole reason for instigating the Rebellions was that they wanted more planets, and here they are destroying three of them. Real smart move there 

 

Granted, Zeon had adequate Casus belli. The Krogan were little more then marauding pirates. That said, those worlds WERE in the Turian cluster, so habitation there is unlikely.

[Vortex13]

Granted, Zeon had adequate Casus belli. The Krogan were little more then marauding pirates. That said, those worlds WERE in the Turian cluster, so habitation there is unlikely.

Not for the Krogan no, but if that's the tactics they want to use then they shouldn't be surprised or even have a moral high ground to stand on when the Galaxy slapped them with the Genophage.

Fair is fair after all.