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[Vortex13]

The facts about the krogan rebellions and wrecked planets were all right there in the codex and planetary descriptions for anyone who bothered to look.

 

 

And the facts about the First Contact War, or Asari biology were in the Codex as well, but characters still talked about those subjects in-game. Just because the details of the Rebellions are mentioned in the lore doesn't mean that it makes up for the lack of in-game discussion of the material (IMO). As the saying "Show, don't tell" goes, having characters in the narrative talk about something lends more credence to the subject than an encyclopedia entry.

 

Even then, I would be willing to concede the fact that ME 3 wasn't blatantly pro-cure if the spokesman for keeping the Genophage in place (the Salarian Dalatrass) actually used the information from the lore in her arguments against the cure. Instead she is a one dimensional caricature that just hates the Krogan, no other reasons given.

 

It's like a debate on the merits of owning a dog. One side goes on about the pluses of having a pet, about how much joy it will bring to your life, etc. And the other side, rather than going off the established research about how owning a dog is a responsibility that not all people are able to handle, the costs associated with pet ownership, etc. instead runs off the platform of how much they hate dogs, and how they like to see them euthanized. 

 

Sure the debate is technically balanced, in that there are too sides to the argument, but really,saying that the discussion is neutral is laughable (IMO). 

[Gothfather]

Not curing the genophage doesn't mean the krogan will instantly go extinct. Likewise with the quarians and the geth.

 

There's also this "We're not going to talk about the trilogy"-thing BioWare has been pushing for a while now, so the choices might not be discussed at all. Which would be very interesting considering how much weight BioWare has placed on the notion of respecting player's choices in the ending. Respect the ending but not the rest of the game? Super MAC's work, no doubt. The man does not care about the fanbase at all.

 

 

They did respect our choices. They made a commitment to the TRILOGY. They never said and we will continue supporting ALL your choices in the ME universe ad infinitum. This BS notion that because Bioware isn't doing a cannon ending isn't respecting players is just as asinine as claiming that because they are not going to reference all our choices from the trilogy that bioware doesn't respect players either.

 

It is totally unreasonable to expect Bioware to continue a series with all the reference points to the old series' possible variance included for ever game set in the ME universes till the end of time. ME1-3 IS OVER. It is time for players to GET OVER IT. Just as it is unreasonable to expect Bioware to invalidate all the choices people made in the previous series by saying sorry "all your choices don't count because this is what 'officially' happened."

 

Mass effect: Andromeda is its own game perhaps its own series (Assuming it does well enough for a sequel) and players should get it through their skulls that this isn't actually ME4 just with a different name. It isn't the 4th game in the series, it is the 6th game set in the mass effect universe. (I think it is 6th, we have ME1-3, Me galaxy and me infiltrator not ME:A.)

 

There is zero disrespect on Bioware part for not referencing your super duper extra special choices in a game that isn't part of the previous series. Gemers are not a important as they sometimes think they are.

[Arcian]

They did respect our choices. They made a commitment to the TRILOGY. They never said and we will continue supporting ALL your choices in the ME universe ad infinitum. This BS notion that because Bioware isn't doing a cannon ending isn't respecting players is just as asinine as claiming that because they are not going to reference all our choices from the trilogy that bioware doesn't respect players either.

 

It is totally unreasonable to expect Bioware to continue a series with all the reference points to the old series' possible variance included for ever game set in the ME universes till the end of time. ME1-3 IS OVER. It is time for players to GET OVER IT. Just as it is unreasonable to expect Bioware to invalidate all the choices people made in the previous series by saying sorry "all your choices don't count because this is what 'officially' happened."

 

Mass effect: Andromeda is its own game perhaps its own series (Assuming it does well enough for a sequel) and players should get it through their skulls that this isn't actually ME4 just with a different name. It isn't the 4th game in the series, it is the 6th game set in the mass effect universe. (I think it is 6th, we have ME1-3, Me galaxy and me infiltrator not ME:A.)

 

There is zero disrespect on Bioware part for not referencing your super duper extra special choices in a game that isn't part of the previous series. Gemers are not a important as they sometimes think they are.

Get over yourself. I wasn't suggesting they should reference every last player choice in the entire trilogy, I was calling them out on the hypocrisy of saying "Player choice is something we take very seriously." while ignoring all player choice except the ME3 ending choices, those choices being literally the ONLY reason why the new game is set in Andromeda.

[Lebanese Dude]

Get over yourself. I wasn't suggesting they should reference every last player choice in the entire trilogy, I was calling them out on the hypocrisy of saying "Player choice is something we take very seriously." while ignoring all player choice except the ME3 ending choices, those choices being literally the ONLY reason why the new game is set in Andromeda.

 

Why would they respect player choice in a brand new setting? The choice in that game was your ending for the trilogy.

 

You expecting a Synthesis-ized Conrad Verner to fly in with the Rachni Queen to give you a high five? 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You expecting a Synthesis-ized Conrad Verner to fly in with the Rachni Queen to give you a high five? 

Well now that you mention it...

[Ahglock]

^ honestly if they did that they could make any ending canon and I'd love it.

[Arcian]

Why would they respect player choice in a brand new setting?

Normally they wouldn't. But in this case, respecting player choice is the only way they can justify the new setting in the first place. The problem is when they elect to respect some player choice but not the rest. Either they respect all of it, in which case Andromeda is an impossible setting, or none of it, in which case Andromeda is also an impossible setting.
 

The choice in that game was your ending for the trilogy.

MEHEM was my ending for the trilogy.

You expecting a Synthesis-ized Conrad Verner to fly in with the Rachni Queen to give you a high five? 

I'm expecting them to not be so bloody hypocritical.

[Lebanese Dude]

Normally they wouldn't. But in this case, respecting player choice is the only way they can justify the new setting in the first place. The problem is when they elect to respect some player choice but not the rest. Either they respect all of it, in which case Andromeda is an impossible setting, or none of it, in which case Andromeda is also an impossible setting.
 
MEHEM was my ending for the trilogy.

I'm expecting them to not be so bloody hypocritical.

 

Fine fine fine

[goishen]

IMO, I hope that they don't talk about the trilogy.   I hope they distance themselves from as far as possible.  Not in a "they have to" way, not in a "let's talk about the ME endings for another 138 pages" way, not even in a "I hope to never see a (insert race) again" way either.  In a universe expanding, both literally and figuratively, way.

[ABASOVA]

The N7 Day trailer shows the ark leaving earth before earth is attacked. If all the species that are part of the exodus are already on it, then it would not make sense for massive numbers of non-council races to be in orbit of or on earth to leave on that ship. Wouldn't the citizens of earth know and be suspicious of such activity; it could cause a panic with all the reaper rumors about. But since the krogan are coming along, and I keep wondering how we managed to get them to give up their females who are almost exclusively on Tuchanka and appear to remain there during the Tuchanka arc, I wonder if salarian scientists just brought hundreds or thousands of krogan eggs. When they hatch, they'll imprint on the salarians or other council races and be more manageable than if their parents, carrying old animosities, were to raise them.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Just a thought:

 

Even if the Ark departs after the genophage was cured, I assumed the the way the cure was delivered would only cure the Krogan on Tutchanka at that particular time. I think it's fair to assume that if an ark was being built during ME3, the crew for that would mostly not be at their home planets, but being trained/prepared/tested in whatever planet was the building site to it.

 

So, even if the genophage cure is acknowledged, the Krogan in Andromeda will probably still carry it.

 

And the fact that they basically were isolated for the duration of the trip, however long it was, may lead to a diferent outlook on it, maybe even taking their genophage reproductive status as "normal" after a while.

 

The 1000:1 ratio, if we take into account what Edi said about the quantoty of eggs a Krogan female could lay within a year, plus the long Krogan lifespans would make Krogan still more fit to colonize any place than humans. By far.

[Sifr]

In my view Krogan adaptation to genophage is inevitable. Sabotaging the genophage cure guarantees reprisal and de rails any
hope of peaceful coexistence after the war.

 

Especially when we are told that this has already happened at least once before, hence the reason Mordin's STG team were sent in to modify the genophage and adjust the fertility levels. Even without the cure, evolution combined with their resilient physiology will eventually mean future generations will have adapted enough to make it a non-issue... as long as the Salarians are not around to interfere, that is.

[ThomasBlaine]

Especially when we are told that this has already happened at least once before, hence the reason Mordin's STG team were sent in to modify the genophage and adjust the fertility levels. Even without the cure, evolution combined with their resilient physiology will eventually mean future generations will have adapted enough to make it a non-issue... as long as the Salarians are not around to interfere, that is.

 

But that's just it, the salarians are around and seem pretty confident they can maintain the genophage indefinitely with regular modifications, Mordin's dialogue and long-term views on the issue would be totally different if he - the quintessential authority on the subject - thought that the salarians letting the krogan evolve out of the cure was in any way a likely or viable outcome, which makes sense. This cannot be overstated: evolution is NO MATCH for even modern medicine or chemical warfare when it comes to affecting someone's biology toward a specific purpose, and Mass Effect has medical technology hundreds of years ahead of ours.

 

The krogan birthrate suddenly going out of control despite modifications and unleashing a vengeful rampage isn't a realistic danger. The krogan getting tired of Wrex' nonsense and going nuts again while breeding like rabbits, or Wrex himself going too far, is a much more pressing one of which Shepard is already seeing signs just from hearing him talk. And while the genophage can always be cured later if the krogan prove worthy of it, letting them run wild immediately after a war that has diminished the other species could turn catastrophic very very fast.

 

Edit: Crap, sorry for necroing, I confused myself about how I found this thread again and didn't look at the dates.

Modifié par ThomasBlaine, 11 mars 2016 - 10:23 .

[Spectr61]

Does anyone know the specific writer(s) responsible for coming up with the Krogan and the Genophage in the first place?

Very well done, with many great scenes and decisions over 3 games.

More importantly, does anyone know if the same writers are involved with MEA?

I hope so, but wouldn't be surprised if they have flown the coop.

[LinksOcarina]

No way of knowing really.

[Kabooooom]

But that's just it, the salarians are around and seem pretty confident they can maintain the genophage indefinitely with regular modifications, Mordin's dialogue and long-term views on the issue would be totally different if he - the quintessential authority on the subject - thought that the salarians letting the krogan evolve out of the cure was in any way a likely or viable outcome, which makes sense. This cannot be overstated: evolution is NO MATCH for even modern medicine or chemical warfare when it comes to affecting someone's biology toward a specific purpose, and Mass Effect has medical technology hundreds of years ahead of ours.

The krogan birthrate suddenly going out of control despite modifications and unleashing a vengeful rampage isn't a realistic danger. The krogan getting tired of Wrex' nonsense and going nuts again while breeding like rabbits, or Wrex himself going too far, is a much more pressing one of which Shepard is already seeing signs just from hearing him talk. And while the genophage can always be cured later if the krogan prove worthy of it, letting them run wild immediately after a war that has diminished the other species could turn catastrophic very very fast.

Edit: Crap, sorry for necroing, I confused myself about how I found this thread again and didn't look at the dates.

I agree. The only reason my Shep cured the genophage was because it was stated the Prothean Reaper war lasted several centuries. If the Crucible failed, you're going to need a constant supply of troops for continued warfare, and the Krogan (and Geth) offer the best way to bolster numbers. Pure practicality. Without metagaming, there's no way I could trust the Krogan not to eventually take over the galaxy post-war, even with Wrex and Eve in charge.

The genophage was a necessary evil at the time. That's a fact. The Krogan were making ****** asteroid drops on planets. It was either the genophage, or following the Rachni to extinction. Which one is more ethical?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Still if the Crucible failed, the Krogan would only drag out things a few hundred years. Our galactic economy would collapse in a year making it impossible to build any new ships. With the home worlds practically in ruins in about a year, it would have been an exercise in futility anyway. If the Crucible did work and you did happen to win, you're stuck with Krogan with out of control population. So the only smart choice is no cure.

[ThomasBlaine]

I agree. The only reason my Shep cured the genophage was because it was stated the Prothean Reaper war lasted several centuries. If the Crucible failed, you're going to need a constant supply of troops for continued warfare, and the Krogan (and Geth) offer the best way to bolster numbers. Pure practicality. Without metagaming, there's no way I could trust the Krogan not to eventually take over the galaxy post-war, even with Wrex and Eve in charge.

The genophage was a necessary evil at the time. That's a fact. The Krogan were making ****** asteroid drops on planets. It was either the genophage, or following the Rachni to extinction. Which one is more ethical?

 

That's good reasoning. I guess if the game hadn't made such a big deal of the Crucible being the galaxy's only shot, focusing on turning the whole conflict into a war of attrition rather than an outright massacre would be the first priority. Now you're making me want to replay the series all over again with that in mind. Good on you.

 

 

Still if the Crucible failed, the Krogan would only drag out things a few hundred years. Our galactic economy would collapse in a year making it impossible to build any new ships. With the home worlds practically in ruins in about a year, it would have been an exercise in futility anyway. If the Crucible did work and you did happen to win, you're stuck with Krogan with out of control population. So the only smart choice is no cure.

 

That's why you'd need the geth, they'd be superb for communications, administration and production in lieu of a working economy, assuming they're trustworthy. Between them and focused, self-replenishing krogan shock troopers the Council species could certainly drag the war out while potentially refining the Crucible or looking for alternatives if necessary. And any possibility of somehow beating the Reapers in the end is way more important for all future life than the homeworlds are to the current cycle. Obviously not a perfect plan, but a decent backup in case the magic bullet doesn't work.

[Kabooooom]

Still if the Crucible failed, the Krogan would only drag out things a few hundred years. Our galactic economy would collapse in a year making it impossible to build any new ships. With the home worlds practically in ruins in about a year, it would have been an exercise in futility anyway. If the Crucible did work and you did happen to win, you're stuck with Krogan with out of control population. So the only smart choice is no cure.

This is essentially what happened to the Protheans, so I agree. Their economy collapsed, they could build no new ships (or, if any shipyards survived because the Reapers hadn't been there yet, they would be locked out from the rest of the galaxy and in information blackout due to the nearest relay being shut down). They dragged the war out centuries due to their remaining fleet and ground troops fighting a war of attrition and eventually inevitably losing.

So I hear your objection that it would be futile, but raise the counterpoint that a war of attrition and prolonging the "inevitable" does have one strategic advantage - it buys time. It buys time specifically for isolated groups to pursue plans B, C, or D. Such as hiding a population in cryo on an easily overlooked world, as the Protheans did, or even setting up an Ark voyage to a new galaxy, as the Milky Way species most likely did in retrospect. Allowing the Reapers to have too swift a victory doesn't work in your favor strategically, even if their victory is ultimately assured.

And besides, my Shep acted on the premise that if the Krogan ever got uppity in the future, we could just bitchslap them back down with Genophage 3.0. If you liked Genophage 1.0 and 2.0, you'll love the new and improved genophage 3.0 - now with moar sterility.

Wrex's words from ME1 ring true - "when's the last time you saw a Krogan scientist?". Brains beat brawn every time.

[Iakus]

Still if the Crucible failed, the Krogan would only drag out things a few hundred years. Our galactic economy would collapse in a year making it impossible to build any new ships. With the home worlds practically in ruins in about a year, it would have been an exercise in futility anyway. If the Crucible did work and you did happen to win, you're stuck with Krogan with out of control population. So the only smart choice is no cure.

The fertile krogan females are still on Tuchanka.  Without warships.

 

They had to hitch a ride form the turians just to get to Palaven!

 

They can't leave until the Council says they can!

[UpUpAway]

Get over yourself. I wasn't suggesting they should reference every last player choice in the entire trilogy, I was calling them out on the hypocrisy of saying "Player choice is something we take very seriously." while ignoring all player choice except the ME3 ending choices, those choices being literally the ONLY reason why the new game is set in Andromeda.

 

What gets me about this "Bioware doesn't respect the player's choice" thing that seems to permeate every thread here is that I wonder "Where's the respect for any of Bioware's choices or even the 'right' of a 'writer' to make their own choices about how to 'synthesize' or 'not synthesize' a new 'book' with their own past body of work."

[Bruno Hslaw]

To be fair, I assumed we all guessed that the BS, about our choices making a difference was defunct by now. Come on really they did that in with the end of ME 3 and to a lesser degree in ME 2. How difficult would it be to make a ME game without using a standard game world, not based on our choices.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

Of course the Krogan survive!

 

You can't keep the Krogan down!

[Vespervin]

I wonder what a krogan tastes like...?

 

Oh Waiter, I'd like to order a krogan with a side of asari please.

[straykat]

I wonder what a krogan tastes like...?

 

Oh Waiter, I'd like to order a krogan with a side of asari please.

 

Chicken, of course.