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Making the best rpg ever: what ME should learn from other games


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#251
N7M

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Not relevant.
 

As has been suggested multiple times by multiple people, arousal is not required to perceive sexualization. Most people are capable of recognizing that a comedian just told a joke, even if they don't get it or find it funny. Likewise, most people are also capable of recognizing when a marketing message is trying to sell them something, even if they don't find the attempt persuasive.

The only person who has expressed any sort of value judgement or reaction (Alan) has made it pretty clear that he finds it distasteful.

 

If that is the only value judgement you've seen you need to read more carefully, even your own words. 



#252
Rorschachinstein

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Exhibit A that Godwin's Law needs an update.

 

Your hurt feelings do not constitute a change of opinion on my part.



#253
Pasquale1234

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If that is the only value judgement you've seen you need to read more carefully, even your own words.


How about you point them out?

#254
N7M

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The "just asking questions" defense has been done before and it's no more accurate in this instance.This is like saying that if I speak out against animal cruelty that I'm endorsing human rights abuses if I'm not explicitly condemning them.

 

And as above, there are a number of distinctions between the Astroboy and Xenoblade images you linked.

 

The pertinent distinction being that one is male the other female. The other distinctions offered appear simply to be justifications on Pasquale1234's part to condemn one and dismiss the other by assuming that how they see an image is how the world sees it. 



#255
N7M

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How about you point them out?

How about you do your own homework.



#256
N7M

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And the picture being discussed--at length--involves a depiction of a girl in a skimpy outfit with an upward shot of her breasts. Astroboy, in contrast, is infantilized in the picture you provided. The two images don't compare. Whether you think Alan is correct in his interpretation or his disgust with the picture, accusing that disgust of being the result of sexual arousal is innapropriate, presumptuous, and unfair.

 

If the camera angle is lingering and focused specifically on the breasts and was not contrived by the person that took the image you are correct. However, the screen shot appears as though it was positioned by the person that took it. 

AlanC clarified that they thought the image silly and their dismissal wasn't based off sexualization.



#257
Pasquale1234

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The pertinent distinction being that one is male the other female. The other distinctions offered appear simply to be justifications on Pasquale1234's part to condemn one and dismiss the other by assuming that how they see an image is how the world sees it.


I've condemned nothing.

As previously stated, Astro Boy has no discernible sexual characteristics. The character is no more sexualized than a toddler in a diaper commercial.
 

How about you do your own homework.


Translation: "I'll just make blind accusations with nothing to back them up."

#258
Pasquale1234

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I think ME:A could benefit from the example of Batman: Arkham Knight. Though, to be truthful, I think every game could. Of course, it's a wildly different combat style from ME, they could still maybe use the concept of a larger rogues gallery as opposed to their usual formula for antagonists.


Is there anything in particular that you might like to see?
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#259
N7M

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I've condemned nothing.

As previously stated, Astro Boy has no discernible sexual characteristics. The character is no more sexualized than a toddler in a diaper commercial.
 

Translation: "I'll just make blind accusations with nothing to back them up."

 

No, the translation is : "It's your job to get your selective reasoning under control not mine." If a non-biased person decides to enter this thread and they possess the relevant skillset and intelligence to discern value judgments and claims that is the only one that will suffice for me to point out the others. 

 

Again, your opinion on the image of Astro Boy is just that an opinion it is not objective fact. A person could say the same thing about the Xenoblades character and be just as valid. 



#260
Steelcan

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Is there anything in particular that you might like to see?

Selina Kyle personally


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#261
Il Divo

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The pertinent distinction being that one is male the other female. The other distinctions offered appear simply to be justifications on Pasquale1234's part to condemn one and dismiss the other by assuming that how they see an image is how the world sees it. 

 

To be clear, I'm not sure why I would take your word over Pasquale's regarding how she views sexuality. You asked what were the relevant distinctions, others brought up what they consider to be the relevant distinctions. It's not anyone's place to decide for someone else what the pertinent distinctions are regarding their own views in an effort to salvage an argument.


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#262
Il Divo

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Your hurt feelings do not constitute a change of opinion on my part.

 

Not sure I would interpret that as hurt feelings. Utter contempt might be accurate, just based on the wording/tone.
 



#263
Iakus

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Your hurt feelings do not constitute a change of opinion on my part.

I don't care enough about what you think to have my feelings hurt.


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#264
Il Divo

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^Well timed, Iakus. Well timed.


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#265
Lady Artifice

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Is there anything in particular that you might like to see?

 

It's hard because I have to be realistic about the distinctions of each genre, and the fact that Batman is an even more "set" character than Geralt, with even more of pre-set dynamic with allies and enemies.  

 

I'd like there to be more of a rogues gallery, and for there to be similar psychological and horror related themes to the story.

 

Poison Ivy is my favorite, while I think Scarecrow is the scariest, and Joker represents the best antagonist as foil to the protagonist in the entire history of fiction.

 

But none of that might make a difference in a story where the personality of the protagonist is determined by the will of the player, unless they somehow managed to let us decide which out of a varied group of enemies is the primary antagonist, and going about how to do something like that would be an imperfect science at best.

 

So, at the very least, I think they should take a look at how the batmobile maneuvers and consider that when they finish work on how the mako operates.

 

They should also take a look at the stealth possibillities in the Arkham games. I'd love to be able to sneak up on enemies more often.


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#266
Il Divo

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^Wouldn't mind seeing them bring something like Shadow of Mordor's nemesis system to a new Batman game, but using the Rogues' Gallery. Might even be believable too just given how much they borrowed in turn from the Batman series.


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#267
Pasquale1234

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No, the translation is : "It's your job to get your selective reasoning under control not mine." If a non-biased person decides to enter this thread and they possess the relevant skillset and intelligence to discern value judgments and claims that is the only one that will suffice for me to point out the others.


But you're claiming the presence of value judgements, and inferring that I've contributed to them, in this:
 

If that is the only value judgement you've seen you need to read more carefully, even your own words.


Since you don't seem to be able to point to any, we'll just have to assume that your accusations were mistakes.

#268
Serza

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Go home, Bender, you're drunk.

 

Actually, I'm drunk.


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#269
Lady Artifice

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Go home, Bender, you're drunk.

 

Actually, I'm drunk.

 

This thread has had many drinkable moments.


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#270
N7M

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To be clear, I'm not sure why I would take your word over Pasquale's regarding how she views sexuality. You asked what were the relevant distinctions, others brought up what they consider to be the relevant distinctions. It's not anyone's place to decide for someone else what the pertinent distinctions are regarding their own views in an effort to salvage an argument.

 

Trying to frame my addressing your posts as "salvaging" doesn't make it so.

The only pertinent distinctions are animated characters, comparable realism, age equivalency, male and female, and attire. It is relevant to make these distinctions in a discussion about regionalization and censorship regarding sexualization. However, as this thread is not about this and my engaging in this topic was to briefly show a different perspective on the issue not derail the thread with a discussion; it is best if the thread return to it's stated purpose.

 

If you feel the need to continue discussing this topic you may start another thread.



#271
N7M

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This thread has had many drinkable moments.

 

Considering the pity party you tried to start for poor Alan today your maudlin attempt at humour is fitting. 

---

Thank you, everyone. Good luck!



#272
Il Divo

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Trying to frame my addressing your posts as "salvaging" doesn't make it so.

The only pertinent distinctions are animated characters, comparable realism, age equivalency, male and female, and attire. It is relevant to make these distinctions in a discussion about regionalization and censorship regarding sexualization. However, as this thread is not about this and my engaging in this topic was to briefly show a different perspective on the issue not derail the thread with a discussion; it is best if the thread return to it's stated purpose.

 

If you feel the need to continue discussing this topic you may start another thread.

 

At least 3 of distinctions you cited have been disputed on those grounds.

 

Trying to get people to see things in another light is all well and good. Just not when it involves fundamental misunderstandings regarding what sexualization actually entails. Case in point: your bizarre assertions regarding other posters' attraction to Xenoblade characters.


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#273
saladinbob

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It all comes down to a fundamentally different approach to making games. Red's Witcher series treats the player as an adult, which the average gamer is. Their games deal with difficult choices and then force you to live with the consequences of doing so. They don't shy away from adult themes appropriate to their game settings, such as the horrors of war - plague, rape, famine, murder. Bioware, on the other hand, tend to sanitize their games, shielding the player from the negatives of their game settings.

 

One of the biggest lessons Bioware needs to learn is to ditch their simplistic, black and white morality system they use in each game. The whole concept of 'Paragon' or 'Renegade' has worn out its welcome, especially when other games like the Witcher deal in shades of grey which is what life is. For example, there's a mission on SWTOR where you have a choice between letting someone go after they've been screened for carrying a virus and taking them into custody in order to be questioned about a terrorist they were employed by. The first choice you get light side points, the second choice you get dark side points. It's completely arbitrary and carries no consequence regardless of what choice you make. Every decision you make in Andromeda should have a consequence to it, even if you don't see that consequence until further down the line. 

 

That being said, The Witcher 3 is far from a perfect game. It's generally agreed on the official forums that Red messed up the second and third acts with the writing falling off a cliff in the final third, long established characters acting entirely out of character, an antagonist who is criminally underdeveloped and an ending that is arguably worse than Mass Effect 3's since it has only the most tenuous connection to the main plot, with life or death decisions being made without the player being aware they're making life or death decisions (having a snowball fight is apparently life or death decision in CDPR's mind). It's romance system is also inferior to Bioware games with an awful and deeply unpopular lock in mechanic and the romance writing is unbalanced, being heavily biased towards one of the potential partners.

 

Nonetheless, if we look at the core concept then yes, The Witcher 3 must be a starting point for Bioware in making Andromeda. It's a far superior game in many ways to Inquisition and has swept the board with awards. Bioware have to look at the market, look at their past games and look at their competition and raise the bar for RPGs once more. Simply churning out another 'safe' game, I feel, will be the final nail in their coffin as a developer with many people.


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#274
Pasquale1234

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With the concept of a rogue's gallery, I've just had sort of a weird idea.

There could be an assortment of maybe a dozen or so minor antagonists doing various antagonistic stuff (heh), with the player's choices and approach determining whether they were killed, prosecuted, or slipped away. The ones that manage to get away could ally with the big bad at the end, and you'd have to get through various pitfalls that they set, depending on which ones were left.

Kind of like a reverse ME2, but instead of a dozen squadmates, you'd have a dozen different antagonists to deal with throughout the game and included in the final mission.

Could be interesting if it was done right.
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#275
Mr.House

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The imagery posted and behavior of those that have been promoting the show seemed to indicate an adolescent level of emotional and intellectual development. 

Had you done a simple 5 minute search on google and did research you would know what PMMM truly is instead of coming off as ignorant like you just did. Even the bloody staff does not consider it a show for kids or pre teens. The shows is heavily marketed towards teens and adults.

 

You pulled a FOX news, never pull a FOX news.