317 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

You have a gift, Alan. With great power comes great responsibility.

[Il Divo]

 
There was no attempt on my part to define sexualization as you claim. My claim was that those who are saying the censored costumes by themselves constitute sexualization is untrue and that any perceived sexualization is the product of their own imagination fueled by their own sexual urges.

 

 

Artifice pretty much hit it here.

 

Trying to brush that aside on the grounds of "it's your sexual urges" is the exact strawman which Alan was referring to way back when. Sexual urges have nothing to do with it because people comment on sexualized images which they don't find arousing all the time.  

 

All sexualization is perceived by the viewer. There shouldn't be anything particularly shocking about that point. Not to the extent that anyone should be brushing it aside as "well it's just your imagination and sexual urges!". That sexualization is shaped by culture and experiences is not a carte blanche to toss all criticisms aside.

[N7M]

 

 

Do you assert that sexual urges are always involved when a person perceives sexualization, or just in this instance? For instance, does every person who protests the repeated close ups of Miranda's back side in ME2 as excessive sexualization feel secretly aroused by it? 

 

If there is no evidence of sexualization other than what is in the accusers imagination then, yes.  The majority of complaints about Miranda seem to be about unprompted and uncontrollable (though skippable and avoidable) lingering camera shots upon her backside that are not part of a complimentary chosen narrative and these complaints are not solely based upon the costume and imaginings.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

When i heard that you had to play human was like having a grenade blowing up in your face. Painfull, i would have loved to play a turian or asari bad ass

Yeah. Being stuck as human-only again is the worst news about the game so far. This was the perfect time to have other races become playable options for the protagonist too, because all the races are in the same boat, figuratively and literally. 

[N7M]

Artifice pretty much hit it here.

 

Trying to brush that aside on the grounds of "it's your sexual urges" is the exact strawman which Alan was referring to way back when. Sexual urges have nothing to do with it because people comment on sexualized images which they don't find arousing all the time.  

 

All sexualization is perceived by the viewer. There shouldn't be anything particularly shocking about that point. Not to the extent that anyone should be brushing it aside as "well it's just your imagination and sexual urges!". That sexualization is shaped by culture and experiences is not a carte blanche to toss all criticisms aside.

 

Not one person who sees this sexualization of a 13 yo girl character in Xenoblades based upon the costume has complained about 13 yo Astro Boy's costume on the top of the last page. He's wearing even less. Neither animation is realistic but only one is garnering hysteria of sexualization. 

[Il Divo]

Not one person who sees this sexualization of a 13 yo girl character in Xenoblades based upon the costume has complained about 13 yo Astro Boy's costume on the top of the last page. He's wearing even less. Neither animation is realistic but only one is garnering hysteria of sexualization. 

 

 

Silence is not a counter-response. Person X did not respond to your picture of Astroboy does not indicate that person X does not find it sexualized or repulsive.

 

Having said that, while neither animation style is "realistic", based on the images you posted, I'm going to take a shot in the dark here and say that the Xenoblade Images ranks much closer to our standard of realism than your Astroboy pic. Probably doesn't help either that the first image Chrono linked appears to be going for a lingerie look, to further contrast the point with Astroboy. And not to throw in a bonus point, but the red socks things reaching up to cover 1/3 of his body completely in ridiculous fashion probably doesn't convey sexualization all that well. At least, not in any sense that most people would recognize.

 

I'm sure there are people who find the Xenoblade images arousing. Using that as the basis of your argument though is pretty bad form, just given how often commentary on sexuality occurs across the spectrum. Hence the point regarding how female portrayals in media are quite often brought up by women not being a reliable indicator that they find the images enticing. Sexualization does not indicate arousal.

 

To put it another way: "sexualized" and "sexy" are two very different things.  

[Pasquale1234]

Not one person who sees this sexualization of a 13 yo girl character in Xenoblades based upon the costume has complained about 13 yo Astro Boy's costume on the top of the last page. He's wearing even less. Neither animation is realistic but only one is garnering hysteria of sexualization.

Astro Boy is a cartoon caricature with no discernible sexual characteristics.

That image could be a boy, man, or young girl for that matter. I see nothing definitive about the age or gender of the subject.

ETA:

Probably doesn't help either that the first image Chrono linked appears to be going for a lingerie look, to further contrast the point with Astroboy.

Well, yeah. People don't usually wear bow ties or fishnet stockings to swim.

They also don't generally wear swimwear unless they're going swimming - or to the beach or somesuch.

[N7M]

Silence is not a counter-response. Person X did not respond to your picture of Astroboy does not indicate that person X does not find it sexualized or repulsive.
 
Having said that, while neither animation style is "realistic", based on the images you posted, I'm going to take a shot in the dark here and say that the Xenoblade Images ranks much closer to our standard of realism than your Astroboy pic. Probably doesn't help either that the first image Chrono linked appears to be going for a lingerie look, to further contrast the point with Astroboy. And not to throw in a bonus point, but the red socks things reaching up to cover 1/3 of his body completely in ridiculous fashion probably doesn't convey sexualization all that well. At least, not in any sense that most people would recognize.
 
I'm sure there are people who find the Xenoblade images arousing. Using that as the basis of your argument though is pretty bad form, just given how often commentary on sexuality occurs across the spectrum. Hence the point regarding how female portrayals in media are quite often brought up by women not being a reliable indicator that they find the images enticing. Sexualization does not indicate arousal.
 
To put it another way: "sexualized" and "sexy" are two very different things.

 
The lack of a response to Astro Boy is in no way conclusive and conclusive evidence wasn't the intent but it does hint there may be a bias of sensitivity to female animations in skimpy clothing rather than male. This silence does raise questions about the motives of the complainers.
 

Astro Boy is a cartoon caricature with no discernible sexual characteristics.

That image could be a boy, man, or young girl for that matter. I see nothing definitive about the age or gender of the subject.

 
And I'm not seeing sexualized content in the Xenoblades images based on a costume. As no one would see sexualized content in a more realistic Astro Boy image unless they were predisposed to seeing it in a sexualized way.
 

[Steelcan]

Yeah. Being stuck as human-only again is the worst news about the game so far. This was the perfect time to have other races become playable options for the protagonist too, because all the races are in the same boat, figuratively and literally. 

nah there's a lot worse news about it

 

for example "Schlerf had a hand in the development of the story"

 

"Cerberus might be back"

 

"we're leaving the galaxy to avoid ever having to deal with the endings like a bunch of craven eunuchs"

[kalikilic]

Come on, don't just judge based on the thumbnail of one trailer.

 

inb4 anti-miranda-booteh folks enter.

 

wait...

 

where are them?

[N7M]

ETA:

Well, yeah. People don't usually wear bow ties or fishnet stockings to swim.

They also don't generally wear swimwear unless they're going swimming - or to the beach or somesuch.

 

Nor do people wear breather masks in vacuum. 

People have control over the costuming. Those costumes weren't forced on the player. If the player is aroused by the image that is sexualization they created in their head. Could those censored costumes assist those individuals in that process? Perhaps, I'm not them and hopefully, neither is anyone here. There could be reasons other than sexualization that the player can have to outfit their character that way. Maybe the player is simply someone who thinks it looks cute. Thought policing based on mind projection is dangerous and at the core of my point. 

[Puddi III]

The lack of a response to Astro Boy is in no way conclusive and conclusive evidence wasn't the intent but it does hint there may be a bias of sensitivity to female animations in skimpy clothing rather than male. This silence does raise questions about the motives of the complainers.

No, they just think it's a daft comparison not worth commenting on.

[N7M]

No, they just think it's a daft comparison not worth commenting on.

The reaction of my 14 yo niece to "not worth commenting on" seems perfect here.

"like the loli anime [PMMM] they tried to get you to watch?"  <--- (The words of my 14 yo neice who saw your posts on another thread) 

Spoiler

[Puddi III]

Oh look, another daft comparison not worth commenting on.

Though at least your niece has the excuse of being 14.

[Seboist]

The most offensive thing about the close-ups of Miranda's ass is that her ass isn't even all that great to begin with. Now, Bayonetta, Halo 4 Cortana and RE5 Jill's asses? Those are fine assets to have a close-up of.

[N7M]

Oh look, another daft comparison not worth commenting on.

Though at least your niece has the excuse of being 14.

 

Not being a watcher of anime that seems made for preteen girls and focuses on young girls coming of age the existence of sexualizations within the show remain an unknown to me. She prefers Naruto, apparently. 

[Puddi III]

Not being a watcher of anime that seems made for and focuses on young girls coming of age

It's more horror/tragedy.
 

the existence of sexualizations within the show remain an unknown to me.

Watch it and find out.

[slimgrin]

Man... I can't believe one contemptuous comment by me set this whole thing off.

 

And for pixels depicting imaginary characters. We've got a loooong ways to go before games get the same pass as movies and books on mature content. 

[AlanC9]

And for pixels depicting imaginary characters. We've got a loooong ways to go before games get the same pass as movies and books on mature content.

Agreed. I don't think we'll get there until "gamer" isn't a thing, the same way "movie watcher" isn't a thing.

[Morty Smith]

Agreed. I don't think we'll get there until "gamer" isn't a thing, the same way "movie watcher" isn't a thing.

 

Don't forget "book readers" and "car drivers".

[Hanako Ikezawa]

nah there's a lot worse news about it

 

for example "Schlerf had a hand in the development of the story"

 

"Cerberus might be back"

 

"we're leaving the galaxy to avoid ever having to deal with the endings like a bunch of craven eunuchs"

Well, the first example I'm fine with, but yeah the other two are also really bad, but the Cerberus one is just a rumor and the reason for leaving is speculation(most likely correct, but not outright confirmed yet).

[N7M]

Watch it and find out.

Watched the transformations, some clips and read some reviews. There are sexualizations(almost comically over-sexualized) of these animated adolescents but nothing pornographic. Yet, this is more than what has been proven of the Xenoblades character. The general surface narrative does seem to be about coming of age yet the shows targeted audience is adult males.  While some of the material in the narrative aesthetic is sourced from literary and religious works this isn't an unusual feature of anime storylines. The music seemed fair.
Overall, it seems a show for adults who enjoy schmaltz that features grade school girls. 

 

Despite of all this, some friends and I may watch the show over the holidays. This may not be a good thing for the fans of this show. 

 

Anyhow, enjoy your evening. Adieu. 

[Puddi III]

Watched the transformations, some clips and read some reviews. There are sexualizations(almost comically over-sexualized) of these animated adolescents but nothing pornographic. Yet, this is more than what has been proven of the Xenoblades character.

It's a deconstruction of the magical girl genre, and the transformations play like they do in any of those. Which is to say, if you think Sailor Moon is 'comically over-sexualized,' you're just as clueless as you were with the Astro Boy comparison.

I hope watching it will help you to correct some of this uninformed commentary of yours. 

[Rorschachinstein]

Boy, I sure do find those japanese boobies offensive. Put some digital Burkas over those things, I can't stand looking at those super objective pixels

[Mr.House]

The backlash was not even that big on the 13 year old change, the backlash was the boob slider being removed from the CC, un fact many PREFERRED the censorship change for Lin.

Not being a watcher of anime that seems made for preteen girls and focuses on young girls coming of age the existence of sexualizations within the show remain an unknown to me. She prefers Naruto, apparently. 

Ha, hahahahahaha. Are you kidding me? Explain to me how a show which is rated R that deals with  graphic violence and very mature themes (that even confuse adults) is for pre teen girls and coming of age?