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[Walter Black]

A lot of people around here really don’t like Elves. Personally, I enjoy Elven characters when they are well written, but not necessarily above any other fantasy concept. But some posters cannot resist making snide remarks whenever an Elf is brought up, regardless of context. Hell, mods had to shut down the “Elven Support Threads” due to all the flame wars every single time. Orzammar Dwarves don’t get that much hate, nor do Orleasians, the Qunari, or even the bloody Darkspawn (Mages come close, but that’s another thread entirely). So why do you think that is?

 

Since this might just be a sensitive topic, I’m going to something different this time. Maybe even bi-polar  . In the interest of trying to say something new, I’ll bring up some of the more common arguments first, along with my own personal response:

 

1. Elves are Mary Sues. From Tolkien to Brooks to Christopher Paolini, Elves are naturally wiser, stronger, faster, healthier, and more beautiful than any average human. They have an inherent affinity for nature and magic, and they don’t have to do a damn thing to earn it. The whole archetype is adolescent and patronizing, especially since most of their fans always put them in the right.

 

Ok, I agree, this can be real thing. Most of the fantasy books and video games in my youth did have the whole “Elves are Better” vibe. I had to roll my eyes at the whole idea of the “Elf Friend”, as if treating someone with mutual respect was some grand achievement. When I played Dungeons & Dragons in High School, one girl insisted that her Cleric’s actions would always be the correct moral choices, for no other reason than that the character was Elven. Ironically, one of the major points of The Silmarillion was how bad the Elves screwed up, so Tolkien shouldn’t be blamed for others only taking surface elements from his work.

 

That said, isn’t idealism and wish fulfillment kinda the whole point of fantasy fiction? To be something more than you ever could in real life? Yes, applying that idealization to an entire race is tricky, but don’t all of us prop up the groups we want to belong to in real life as well? I don’t care for lazy stereotypes, but I hate throwing out the baby with the bath water even more. Just because an archetype has been misused in the past, doesn’t mean that no one else can fix it.

 

But the most important thing to remember here? Just because Elves are Mary Suetopia in other fiction, they are obviously NOT in Dragon Age. Peasants, vagabonds, unrecognized heroes to cultist guerrilla terrorists and everything in between, Elves are certainly not favored in Thedas. If you are blaming DA Elves for other tales’ baggage, you’re following the wrong story.

 

2. Yes, Elves are an idealized fantasy, and that’s the problem; too much fantasy. Some us never cared for fantasy to begin with, or some of us used to enjoy it but have grown weary of the repetition and glut dominating the market. The end result is the same for players who crave more reality based Role Playing Video Games, we have NOTHING.

 

Another excellent point; I’m as big an sf and fantasy geek as I know, but I also like variety. Surely I can’t be the only one who would love a Grand Theft Auto style game that actually allowed the player to choose to play a Lawful Good undercover cop, a Robin Hood-esquese vigilante or hardened sociopath, rather than being railroaded into only the latter. Obsidian’s Alpha Protocol, despite the bugs and short length, was a definite step in the right direction and one of my favorite espionage games. Unfortunately it wasn’t the hit Sega was hoping for, and the concept of an espionage rpg remains a shaky sale.

 

That said, unless creators are able to Kickstart a potential Cops & Robbers or Spies & Soldiers RPG, or by some miracle a studio actually receives a green light from corporate for such a game, we are simply out of luck. As far as EA and their ilk go, you’ve already voted with your wallets, so all the forum wailing in the world isn’t going to sway them. At this point, complaining about fantasy elements in a fantasy video game makes as much sense as going to a Chinese restaurant and badgering everyone that you can’t get pasta.

 

3. On the other hand, some of us don’t like Elves because they’re not fantastic enough. Fantasy is supposed to be as limitless as imagination, but western game companies keep drudging out the same D&D templates we’ve seen a million times. Elves, Dwarves, Halflings and Orcs; been there, done that. Where are the new races, wild and weird settings, ORIGINAL concepts?

 

This, so much. As much as I love those said D&D archetypical races, I have to wonder; why can’t we see the next Teifling or Warforged or something more bizarre? Yes, Dragon Age has the Qunari, and Pillars of Eternity have the Aumaua and Orlan, but you could argue that those are simply reskinned Orcs and Gnomes, not to mention that these games still have Humans, Elves and Dwarves. Yes, there are plenty of wild and original races in the pen and paper games, but I’m restricting this argument to playable races in video games. Also, I acknowledge that creating a new player race that is original and different from what has gone before is a difficult balancing act, and more importantly, harder sell.

 

So maybe that’s it; we are part of the problem. Companies will only produce material that people want, and western role playing video games with Elves usually out sell ones with more original races. It could be the comfort of the familiar, it could be that some players find the new races too weird for their tastes, and some of them really are just shallow enough to only want the pretty and special avatar. As for Dragon Age Elves, the argument can be made that with all of their more traditionally fey qualities stripped away (immortality, bond with nature and magic, etc.), they’re basically just humans with pointed ears. If Bioware wasn’t going to make their Elves different enough from Humans, then what was the point of making them not Human?

 

To this, the only thing I can say is to use them same metaphor as before; you knew what was on the menu before you ordered. You knew that Dragon Age was going to have Humans, Elves and Dwarves. Races with slight spins, but still familiar enough to attract fans of traditional western rpgs. It’s possible we might get new player races in the future, like the Fex or the teased Serpent Men, but the basic template is already set.

 

4. From a purely aesthetic standpoint, to me most Elves look like children. The skinny bodies, the lack of body hair, the soft features and sometimes short heights scream in my mind “ADOLESCENT”! At least Dwarves have hair and muscle mass. Elves just don’t look strong enough for heroic adventure, and the thought of romancing them just feels creepy.

 

Well, that’s a personal preference that I can’t really argue. Personally, I never found DA Elves to be that ageless, at least in comparison to other games I’ve played. Yes, Merrill could often come off like a teenager, but that was mostly her personality and she did have hidden depths if you knew where to look. As for the “skinny is weak” argument… uhmm, fantasy? It’s possible that DA Elven Warriors have just enough latent magic to augment their strength, like the Arcane Warriors. On meta level, some people, no matter hard they try can’t lose much weight in real life and want to imagine what it’s like to be heroic and thin. Or maybe they’re the reverse; people with naturally high metabolism who can’t gain much muscle, but still want to see themselves reflected. Why not simply choose the default middle ground, a standard muscle bound hero’s body? Again, that’s their choice.

 

5. I’m sick and tired of being called some kind of “bigot” just because I don’t worship these Elves that far too many people take as coded for a minority. This is the Twenty-First Century, and Dragon Age is a Mature game; we don’t need to hide behind adolescent power fantasies to talk about prejudice, we can be honest and use real people. Being an Elf is not X (racial, religious, gender and/or sexual, etc.), being X is X.

 

Ah yes, the old “how you feel about a fantasy concept is a reflection how you feel about it’s real world equivalent” stance. Elves share so much in common with Jews, so if you don’t like them you have to be Anti-Semitic! Except when in many stories where they are polytheistic pagans, or in Skyrim, where the Altmer are Nazis  . Elven androgyny clearly represents the LBGT movement! Except that Dragon Age has gay and bi and transgender characters who are not Elves, and before you bring up Sera she is proudly anti-elfy elf. Or how about the fact that so many Elves do favor heterosexual pairing since, in universe, they’re dying out. I get that there’s still a long way to go, but personally, I partake of fantasy to explore what does not, cannot exist. Hell, in his own series Rogues of the Republic, Patrick Weekes himself has real racism along with the fantastic kind. What’s the point in treating metaphoric representation just as valid as, oh I don’t know, actual representation?

 

A small aside, I do find it funny how so many Social Justice Warriors claim Elves, when one of the basic tenets of the Elven archetype is inherently conservative; nostalgia for an idealized past that may or may not have actually existed.

 

To be fair, in some cases the Elf fans have a point. Throughout my High School and College Dungeons and Dragons days to several years playing World of Warcraft, I seen many people use elves as interchangeable with racist and homophobic slurs. I’ve also encountered people with such views who were at least smart enough to code their online language to be inflammatory, but not bad enough to be banned, I certainly hope no one here is like that, but you cannot pretend that this does not exist.

 

6. I don’t owe you any explanation for how I feel, and I sure as hell don’t need your approval.

 

Never said you did. If you don’t want to provide any reasons beyond “this sucks”, that’s your prerogative. Kinda hard to win people to your side without the proper context, though.

 

7. In Dragon Age, Elves are at the bottom of the totem pole. Scattered Dalish or poor City Elves, if they were actually worth a damn they would still have an empire. I like winners, not whiners.

 

Ah yes, and no great empire has ever fallen to war, famine, plague, internal strife, economic collapse, rivals with superior numbers and/or technology, or the changing times. And just because group A started on top at the beginning of the story means they will stay there  . This is Dragon, the Age of violent and chaotic change. Within the context of DA media thus far , the Elves have been mostly stepped on, so the writers have two options: keep them downtrodden and telling the same story over and over, or have them rise. Not saying it would be entirely positive for Thedas, but it would be a new Dragon Age story, with new creative potential. I know which path I’d bet on.

 

8. I have no problem with City Elves, but the Dalish are jerks; being arrogant, racist, xenophobic, isolationist, and no place for leaders who aren’t mages. They make little to no attempt to co-operate with civilization, squat on human lands and steal game, sometimes raid and murder human travelers, and couldn’t care less for their “flat eared” cousins.

 

Yes, and this makes them different from most other people in Thedas how? Welcome to Dragon Age. Gotta love how you completely ignore Clans that sometimes subvert this stereotype, like Lavellan, Sabrae, and the unnamed clan who provided small but crucial to Fereldan’s war for independence. As far as invading human territory, when were they given the chance to integrate on EQUAL terms? You want them to obey the law but balk at recognizing them as potential citizens. Frankly, forgetting the obvious moral connotations, the Dalish having their own homeland would simply be easier and more pragmatic on everyone in the long run. Look, there’s a lot I don’t like about the Dalish, but this kind of circular logic helps no one.

 

Oh, and if your position is to cut out the middleman and say that they shouldn’t exist just because, again, you’re following the wrong story  .

 

9. Okay, I admit it, I don’t really care about Elves one way or the other. It’s just that their fans take these special snowflake fantasies WAY too seriously, and they’re so fun to rile up.

 

Well, at least you’re honest  .

 

I’m sure this is no where near a comprehensive list, but with some of the major complaints out of the way, maybe some people on both sides can come to a new understanding. Some of them, anyway…

[Illegitimus]

You forgot the biggest one.  

 

"Elves try to guilt-trip my human characters."

[Walter Black]

You forgot the biggest one.  

 

"Elves try to guilt-trip my human characters."

Well, that's on those individual characters, not the race as a whole. Never said that DA Elves didn't have jerks. Hell, it's why I love them.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

I like the elves, often play one but, my gripe with DAI elves is the arms and, associated glitches in some armors that mean I'm even more limited as to what armor I put on them.

 

Females only really look like adults in Antaam Sarr and Dalish Armor.

 

Males need Avaar, Stone Bear or Qunari armor to look like they have even small muscles.

 

I like the stories, the fact that they are, as a race, quite diverse and, not all perfect, benevolent demi gods. I just think the Devs could have done better with the bodies.

 

A bit more muscle definition and, better curves for the females in all armors. That's nothing on the writting or, how elves are in DAI, just asthetic in MOST armors.

[Beerfish]

The problems with elves in these games get traced back to the story archs and writers making them.  Most of them do tend to act superior and yet they make endlessly horrible decisions whether hit be alienage types or the dalish.  The Dalish are especailly stupid.  I like some elves, I almost always play one sooner or later but thei bad rep is due to how they are portrayed in these story archs.

[scruffylad]

The worst elves are chaotic neutral surface drow who are so tormented by their mysterious pasts that they practically sparkle with it.

 

Elves get a bad rep due to the tedium of superlatives. They're often portrayed as so beautiful, and so magical, and so wise, and even so tragic that they seem to be a caricature--an entire race of Mary Sues. Even the naughty ones are fabulous at it. It gets old quickly. (Vampires run into similar problems when they stray too far from their horror roots.)

 

Having said that, I think DA elves are much more interesting because they aren't perfect. They're down in the muck with the rest of us, even more so in the cities where they are usually members of the underclass. They were a glorious empire at one point, but not any more. Maybe that still falls under so tragic. But it's not a romantically dying empire, inviting you to mourn the passing of so beautiful, so magical, and so wise. In DA the elfity empires are dead and gone, and there's little melancholy left to wallow in. The descendants are either nomads or impoverished alienage residents. Their fall has already happened, and now we're looking at the aftermath. To me that's much more interesting, and I'm glad DA went that route.

[GoldenGail3]

Woah.

"People hate me simply because I'm too handsome for them to handle" - Artemis Lavellan

[Qun00]

Starting a thread about elves is always a guaranteed shitstorm in this section, so I can see your point.

[ComedicSociopathy]

I'm pretty fond of DA elves since their almost as diverse as humans; Dalish Elves, City Elves, Tevinter Slaves, Old Elves. Better yet, like unlike DnD or Tolkien elves, they aren't inherently superior to everyone else and don't pull the we're unearthly beautiful shtick.

 

That said, I really, really hate when they call humans shems or shemlen. It's a derogatory racial slur, plain and simple, and using it is just as bad as calling an elf a knife-ear. 

[In Exile]

Most of it has nothing to do with the elves per se and rather the usual flame wars that erupt between very pro-Dalish folk and very anti-Dalish folk. And in this regard I include the original Dales, because 40% of these flame wars are about who was at fault really for that war.

As to your 8th point: the Dalish are different, for the record, because racism is part of their culture and religion in a way quite unlike everyone else in Thedas. The closest we got to an equivalently racist view theologically - but on a much smaller scale - is the DAI reveal that the Chantry actually holds, as a doctrinal point, that non-humans are more distant from the Maker. The closest we get to an equivalent racist view culturally are the Tevinters and their historical view on elves. But the Dalish are pretty unique in how they've married theological racism with cultural (i.e. usual) racism.

So that part about them is different.

[Nefla]

I hate the weird elf body proportions (and broken arms) that make them look like they were steamrolled over while laying on their side, but I love elven culture and the "superior high-elf" trope being flipped with the elves of Thedas being downtrodden. Even with the deformed bodies, I'd much rather play an elf than a human.

[In Exile]

I hate the weird elf body proportions (and broken arms) that make them look like they were steamrolled over while laying on their side, but I love elven culture and the "superior high-elf" trope being flipped with the elves of Thedas being downtrodden. Even with the deformed bodies, I'd much rather play an elf than a human.

But is it really? Based on what Solas tells us, the elves were ubermensch. Well, possibly awful tyrants, but still objectively superior beings to the rest of Thedas.

[kimgoold]

There's no denying I'm a massive elf fan, I always play one whenever its an option in a game; but these are valid points. I like the different approach the devs have taken, I hate the body type (arms especially) for elven males, but the game is refreshing to me because it is so different. We do need more races, and diversity in the pre-existing cultures and races portrayed in game already. 

This new direction in future DA games with elves as the Villans, cannot wait to see how they portray this.

[almasy87]

I can't really speak as I generally adore elves, not only in DA but everywhere else, other games/universes/anime/mangas etc. I generally adore elven architecture, culture, spiritual and magical side etc.
However in DA I've always had a soft spot for them as I really hate how they are treated in Thedas, and with all the implications DAI brought up I am even more so interested in seeing where this goes, what exactly Solas plans to restore, if there is a way to restore the beautiful Arlathan without destroying anything else, etc.

Which I could not say about Dwarves. I generally dislike them. I remember in LOTR I was almost annoyed by Gimli and it took me a while to get to like the character.. Even when reading the Hobbit I was bored about all those dwarves characters, while I was fascinated by The Silmarillion.. etc etc.

Even in DA I usually don't care much for dwarves, although they can be funny (Oghren, Varric).

BUT!

I most certainly don't go into Dwarf Threads to spread hate like instead people do with Elves. So I agree with you, nobody forces people to like them, but at least they shouldn't be rude and start flame wars 

[DarkAmaranth1966]

Comes back to too many doing the same thing "My People" do too much of in the real world. I'm Native American and, proud of that fact but, No "Pale Face" killed my friends or family intentionally any more than any "Red Skined Heathen" killed yours intentionally. You nore anyone liveing today put me or anyone I know on a reservation. That's the past, it happened to my ancestors and, yours and, both sided payed the price for that. Perhaps at one time mine did pay more than yours but, not now.

 

Few "Pale Face" dwell on what happened to our ancestoprs and drag it up at every dispute but, far too many of "My People" do exactly that. I see it with other minorities who's ancestors were mistreated as well. Unfortunately many elves in DAI have the same problem and, like Native Americans, will admit no part in thier undoing, even though they had a pretty big part in it.

 

Makes for a good sub plot, and I do appriciate the elves being based a bit on "My People" those aspects are easy for me to spot. Elvenhan, The People, same as any tribal name, it simply meant the people or, the human beings. Shemlen, Pale Face both originally simply descriptive but, later begam derogatory.

 

Still a skinny Indian isn't a weak Indian, give the poor elves some muscles next go, yeah?

[Andraste_Reborn]

My only problem with the elves in Dragon Age is that they get more attention than the dwarves, whom I find far more interesting. However, I have been somewhat mollified by The Descent, which seems to indicate that we'll learn more exciting dwarf history in the future. And maybe next game we could have two dwarf companions and only one elf, for balance?

 

(Not that I've got anything against our elven companions - Zevran, Merrill and Fenris are some of my favourite DA characters - but we've had two elves and one dwarf two games in row now, and both times the dwarf has been Varric. Time for more new dwarves!)

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I've long assumed it is largely just an extension of flame wars about social justice elsewhere on the internet that spread to the context of Bioware's lore. 

[AedanStarfang]

I don't hate the elves, I like the Dalish in fact I respect their culture and way of life. The elves in DA could very well get smart, form together to make a "Thalmor" like anti-human brigade, though If what I understand is to be correct then Solas is more or less working towards the same end-goal as the Thalmor. 

[Tidus]

I use a Elf  in the majority of my DA:O and all three of my DA:I games. Qunari  are the bottom of my character pile I only use Sten twice in DA:O. Shems is next in line. Every Shem game except one has been restarted.. My current game is a Shem and nearing the Denerim battle but, never again so, for me its a Elf or a female dwarf.

 

If I could had use a Elf in DA:2 I would have.

 

Even good King Meric couldn't resist a Female elf's beauty. Even 'The Last Flight' had a Elf hero.

[DuskWanderer]

I hate elves because they do nothing but whine and pine for an empire that was for all intents and purposes, total crap anyway. 

[prosthetic soul]

I love elves in Tolkien-esque fantasy and especially in games like this one.  The problem with elves in Dragon Age Inquisition though is that their bodies are so horribly designed that trying to roll an elf is damn near impossible without wanting to gouge your eyes out with a fork.  I'm playing a male elf with the Solas body mod and it has literally made all the difference in the world because it doesn't make my character's head look like a beach ball on top of a flag pole. 

 

This is why I hate Sera in particular.  Because she needs to check her body mesh privilege. 

[lynroy]

Too perfect to pass up.

[Nefla]

But is it really? Based on what Solas tells us, the elves were ubermensch. Well, possibly awful tyrants, but still objectively superior beings to the rest of Thedas.

Were superior beings, past tense. None of the normal elves wandering around are even sure if any of the stories were true. I like it

[CoM Solaufein]

Elf hate? I thought everyone liked DA elves. They're the best race. Now those Elder Scroll elves on the other hand, they're a bunch of arrogant, stuck up assholes.

[DebatableBubble]

Elf hate? I thought everyone liked DA elves. They're the best race. Now those Elder Scroll elves on the other hand, they're a bunch of arrogant, stuck up assholes.

I love TES elves, especially the Thalmor, but hate DA elves. Hate them and most of their supporters who dwell on that website which shall not be named.

Mostly has to do with how their fans hate on humans and think it's boring to play them and their collective special snowflake syndrome.