757 réponses à ce sujet

[nightscrawl]

They aren't even villains, they're just people you meet during the course of your quests, and seldom is there a way to reply to them with anything other than politeness or even fawning. I suppose it would be suicidal to tell Marethari's gate guards to take a chill when they have six arrows pointed at your face, but why can't we tell Briala off? I prefer to play characters who aren't racist, but I object to the fact that it's mandatory rather than a choice. It isn't a virtue unless it's voluntary.

I agree with your whole post, but I wanted to single out this bit.

 

There is, and should be, a difference between being hostile (especially in return for initial hostility) and being racist. Bioware doesn't seem to want to include racist options, and I think that's fine. But I don't think they should force us to be pleased with being treated like crap by someone.

Regarding Briala specifically, I thought the best response in regard to her was actually in the post-WEWH conversation with Solas where you can say in an irritated tone, "Briala only cares about elves," which I liked and is what I usually pick. (I want to be clear that I come at this from the PoV of my Inquisitor, who is trying to save the world, and everyone in it.)

 

However, I will point out that there are a couple of options that I never pick in regard to Dalish behavior. The first is with the guy on the road in the Exalted Plains. There is a star option to say, "You're friendly for a Dalish," which I've never taken because it would be rude. Of course, the actual spoken line might not be so bad, but I have yet to test it. The other comes in the Emerald Graves when you happen on Taven and his group and you have the opportunity to remark on the hostility of the other Dalish when Taven mentions it, which I've also never taken, choosing instead to focus on the task at hand.

[Dean_the_Young]

Enough that it's a shocking and dangerous innovation if Celine puts one into the university or Leliana puts one into the priesthood.   

 

*Citation (still) needed for a majority. Or that the non-elite cared at all- if they even knew. The relevance, let alone the awareness, of the peasants of Orlais on nobility and higher education is a bit lacking in development.

 

 

Unless you assume a biased minority that include the elite cannot, by weight of inertia and indifference, convince an apathetic populace to go along with the status quo rather than change it. Which is the barrier to social changes in most cases.
 

[Dean_the_Young]

6. Velanna isn't all that bad in my opinion. She was wrong to murder people without knowing the truth, but she was deceived by opponents long thought to be little more than mindless beasts. And when faced with her error she showed remorse. Given the right guidance in Awakening she saves a village and is celebrated as a hero for it. And let's be honest, she was the product of the Dalish.

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Exactly. Velanna didn't do anything more then then to try to right a wrong she didn't fully understand what really happen because all she wanted was her  sister returned.  She has a quick mouth and a fiery temper but,she is a strong mage and as we know she saves a village and becomes a hero..

 

After Velanna becomes a Grey she becomes my mage of choice.

 

Do explain how banditry and attacking random passerbyers is 'righting a wrong' in any justifiable sense.

 

Please. I'm interested if you can do so in a way that doesn't validate blatant terrorism.

[Shechinah]

There is, and should be, a difference between being hostile (especially in return for initial hostility) and being racist. Bioware doesn't seem to want to include racist options, and I think that's fine. But I don't think they should force us to be pleased with being treated like crap by someone.

Regarding Briala specifically, I thought the best response in regard to her was actually in the post-WEWH conversation with Solas where you can say in an irritated tone, "Briala only cares about elves," which I liked and is what I usually pick. (I want to be clear that I come at this from the PoV of my Inquisitor, who is trying to save the world, and everyone in it.)

 

I very much agree although I think such options should be avaliable even as an elf because even if your character is elven, be it Dalish or city elf, they may not necessarily agree with the attitude of other elves so it would be additionally good for roleplaying purposes. Even my elven Inquisitor wanted to take a verbal shot at Briala.
 

[Shechinah]

...

 

How much Velanna is a product of her specific Dalish clan is debatable as her Keeper and most of her clan disagreed so strongly with her desire for vengeance that she was exiled despite being the First of the clan. This seems to suggest they did not share her aggressive attitude.

 

There's also how that even if a group of human merchants had been responsible for the deaths of her group and the disappearance of her sister, Velanna still targeted human caravans indiscriminantly, I believe.

 

Velanna deciding to save a human village on her own initiative is a step towards redemption for her and showing she can change, in my opinion, as I think I recall that throughout most of Awakening, her motivations were based on personal Desires such as finding Seranni and killing darkspawn, the former being why she becomes a Grey Warden if I remember correctly.
 

[German Soldier]

Ancient elves like Abelas did not use the word shemlen as derogatory, his race was truly immortal and so by their percpective humans were shemlen.

Dalish elves on the other hand i'm not sure as for why they use the term to adress humans,did they misinterpreted the original meaning of the word? They are not like their ancestors so they are shemlen too.

So why they use the word shemlen for what purpose? It cannot be derogatory as they are also shemlen.

In short i truly beleive that the Dalish changed the meaining of the word and that they are now using it to distinguish themsleves from other races.

[berelinde]

 

However, I will point out that there are a couple of options that I never pick in regard to Dalish behavior. The first is with the guy on the road in the Exalted Plains. There is a star option to say, "You're friendly for a Dalish," which I've never taken because it would be rude. Of course, the actual spoken line might not be so bad, but I have yet to test it. The other comes in the Emerald Graves when you happen on Taven and his group and you have the opportunity to remark on the hostility of the other Dalish when Taven mentions it, which I've also never taken, choosing instead to focus on the task at hand.

Wait, you can encounter Taven in the Emerald Graves? Every time I go there, he and the rest of his party are already dead. What do you have to do to save him? Because if I can, I definitely will in all future games. Whether I'm a fan of the Dalish or not, they are there with peaceful intentions, trying to regain part of their history. They don't deserve to be slaughtered by the Venatori.

 

I've picked the "You're friendly for a Dalish" option, and it's nowhere near as rude as the paraphrase. It's something along the lines of "I've heard that Dalish are aloof, but you seem quite approachable." It isn't the most polite thing to say to a stranger, but it isn't terrible, either. His response makes it all worthwhile.

 

"Don't tell Keeper Hawen I said this, but the old ways just keep the wounds raw. I just think that maybe it's time to forgive."

 

I wanted to hug him.

[Evamitchelle]

Wait, you can encounter Taven in the Emerald Graves? Every time I go there, he and the rest of his party are already dead. What do you have to do to save him? Because if I can, I definitely will in all future games. Whether I'm a fan of the Dalish or not, they are there with peaceful intentions, trying to regain part of their history. They don't deserve to be slaughtered by the Venatori.

 

They die even if you get to talk to them first. 

[berelinde]

They die even if you get to talk to them first. 

Well, that sucks. How do you get to talk to them first? You can't travel there straight from the War Table. Or do you have to explore the Emerald Graves before you explore the Exalted Plains?

 

Like many people, I suppose, I tend to stick to a certain quest order... but I don't mind mixing it up if I know the options are available.

[Qun00]

6. Velanna isn't all that bad in my opinion. She was wrong to murder people without knowing the truth, but she was deceived by opponents long thought to be little more than mindless beasts. And when faced with her error she showed remorse. Given the right guidance in Awakening she saves a village and is celebrated as a hero for it. And let's be honest, she was the product of the Dalish.
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Exactly. Velanna didn't do anything more then then to try to right a wrong she didn't fully understand what really happen because all she wanted was her sister returned. She has a quick mouth and a fiery temper but,she is a strong mage and as we know she saves a village and becomes a hero..

After Velanna becomes a Grey she becomes my mage of choice.

Nathaniel: How do you feel knowing you murdered all those people because you were too arrogant to check your facts?

Velanna: Warm and fuzzy.

Such remorse. I am touched.

[Evamitchelle]

Well, that sucks. How do you get to talk to them first? You can't travel there straight from the War Table. Or do you have to explore the Emerald Graves before you explore the Exalted Plains?

 

Like many people, I suppose, I tend to stick to a certain quest order... but I don't mind mixing it up if I know the options are available.

 

I'm not quite sure. In my game I went to the Exalted Plains before the Emerald Graves, so I don't think that's a factor. The wiki says that 'The Knight's Tomb' quest will appear after Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts is completed, so maybe you need to head to the Emerald Graves before that to find them alive. 

[Beerfish]

Well, that sucks. How do you get to talk to them first? You can't travel there straight from the War Table. Or do you have to explore the Emerald Graves before you explore the Exalted Plains?

 

Like many people, I suppose, I tend to stick to a certain quest order... but I don't mind mixing it up if I know the options are available.

I met them in both games I've played, not sure what the trigger is.  I just tend to explore a lot before doing most big war table quests.

[Beerfish]

Nathaniel: How do you feel knowing you murdered all those people because you were too arrogant to check your facts?

Velanna: Warm and fuzzy.

Such remorse. I am touched.

Out of all the crazy and DUMB elves in all of these games she took the cake.  She was flat out stupid, this was pretty clear when she was hoodwinked by Oghren in the party banter into thinking dwarven babies did come from the stone.

[berelinde]

I'm not quite sure. In my game I went to the Exalted Plains before the Emerald Graves, so I don't think that's a factor. The wiki says that 'The Knight's Tomb' quest will appear after Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts is completed, so maybe you need to head to the Emerald Graves before that to find them alive. 

That's probably it, then. I have a tendency to do Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts before I explore the Exalted Plains because I like being able to tell Celene's and Gaspard's generals that the war is over, but I'd forgo that for the sake of encountering a character I've never encountered before. And it isn't as if you can't go back later and tell them.

 

Thanks!

[Dai Grepher]

To talk to the Dalish before they die, I think you have to meet them in the Emerald Graves after you requisition the item, but before you go back to Skyhold to issue the Chore Table operation. I believe I was in the Emerald Graves when I requisitioned the item. I had completed WEWH and HLtA, but not WPHW. I had also met the Dalish in the Exalted Plains before this. Emerald Graves was my last map before WPHW.

[Dai Grepher]

Exactly. Velanna didn't do anything more then then to try to right a wrong she didn't fully understand what really happen because all she wanted was her  sister returned.  She has a quick mouth and a fiery temper but,she is a strong mage and as we know she saves a village and becomes a hero..

 

After Velanna becomes a Grey she becomes my mage of choice.

 

Eh... I wouldn't go as far to say she was trying to right a wrong. She wanted to kill those who she thought killed her friends and took her sister, and she killed those innocent people wrongly, but attacking merchant caravans was overboard. I don't know if she thought the merchants took her sister or what, but I don't remember there being any evidence for that. I thought she was just being territorial in that case.
 

[Dai Grepher]

Nathaniel: How do you feel knowing you murdered all those people because you were too arrogant to check your facts?

Velanna: Warm and fuzzy.

Such remorse. I am touched.

 

Defense mechanism.
 

[Illegitimus]

*Citation (still) needed for a majority. Or that the non-elite cared at all- if they even knew. The relevance, let alone the awareness, of the peasants of Orlais on nobility and higher education is a bit lacking in development.

 

 

Unless you assume a biased minority that include the elite cannot, by weight of inertia and indifference, convince an apathetic populace to go along with the status quo rather than change it. Which is the barrier to social changes in most cases.
 

 

Certainly the peasantry would be unaware of what the university does.  But the peasantry would be more likely to believe what the Chantry has been telling them about elves and to be slow to change their viewpoint if it turns out that their new priest is an elf.  

[Qun00]

Defense mechanism.

And...? How is that better?

Using humor to avoid acknowledging your misdeeds is part of being unremorseful.

[nightscrawl]

Ancient elves like Abelas did not use the word shemlen as derogatory, his race was truly immortal and so by their percpective humans were shemlen.
Dalish elves on the other hand i'm not sure as for why they use the term to adress humans,did they misinterpreted the original meaning of the word? They are not like their ancestors so they are shemlen too.
So why they use the word shemlen for what purpose? It cannot be derogatory as they are also shemlen.
In short i truly beleive that the Dalish changed the meaining of the word and that they are now using it to distinguish themsleves from other races.

It literally means "quick children," just as their name for dwarves, durgen'len, literally means "children of the stone." -- I've always found it rather rude when Solas refers to Varric as this, and no, it's not the same as Varric and his nicknames.

 

So, while it originally referred to humans when the elves were immortal, all elves are now as you say, also quite literally "quick children," just as humans are. The Dalish, and by extension the city elves who use "shem," are using it in an attempt to "other" humans.
 
 

Wait, you can encounter Taven in the Emerald Graves? Every time I go there, he and the rest of his party are already dead. What do you have to do to save him? Because if I can, I definitely will in all future games. Whether I'm a fan of the Dalish or not, they are there with peaceful intentions, trying to regain part of their history. They don't deserve to be slaughtered by the Venatori.
 
I've picked the "You're friendly for a Dalish" option, and it's nowhere near as rude as the paraphrase. It's something along the lines of "I've heard that Dalish are aloof, but you seem quite approachable." It isn't the most polite thing to say to a stranger, but it isn't terrible, either. His response makes it all worthwhile.
 
"Don't tell Keeper Hawen I said this, but the old ways just keep the wounds raw. I just think that maybe it's time to forgive."
 
I wanted to hug him.

Oh... that response is great. I'll pick it next time, thanks!


I also do Emerald Graves before WEWH, but I'm not sure that has anything to do with it. I explore EG, and meet Taven before taking the Din'an Hanin operation. If you physically walk there before taking the operation you should be able to find him and his party alive. It's only after you take the operation and fast travel there on the war table that they are all dead. Or at least, that has been my experience.

Also, the text of the operation seems to assume that you actually have spoken to him, because part of the conversation is asking whether he needs any help. He refuses (politely), but the operation text seems to suggest that he changed his mind.

You can't save them though, regardless of dialogue options taken.

[berelinde]

It literally means "quick children," just as their name for dwarves, durgen'len, literally means "children of the stone." -- I've always found it rather rude when Solas refers to Varric as this, and no, it's not the same as Varric and his nicknames.

 

So, while it originally referred to humans when the elves were immortal, all elves are now as you say, also quite literally "quick children," just as humans are. The Dalish, and by extension the city elves who use "shem," are using it in an attempt to "other" humans.
 
 

...


I also do Emerald Graves before WEWH, but I'm not sure that has anything to do with it. I explore EG, and meet Taven before taking the Din'an Hanin operation. If you physically walk there before taking the operation you should be able to find him and his party alive. It's only after you take the operation and fast travel there on the war table that they are all dead. Or at least, that has been my experience.

Also, the text of the operation seems to assume that you actually have spoken to him, because part of the conversation is asking whether he needs any help. He refuses (politely), but the operation text seems to suggest that he changed his mind.
...

Ah. That's the part I'm doing wrong. I was doing the War Table operation and fast traveling to find Taven instead of going to the Emerald Graves and walking north.

 

You get the War Table operation as soon as you enter the Emerald Graves, assuming other conditions are met, but the text is very different if you've never personally met. It says that there's a Dalish party in the area and that they're open to communication, but the message's author (who isn't Taven) thinks it would go over better if you spoke in person.

 

Anyway, sorry for derailing the thread with my curiosity. I've completed the game around 15 times (a fact I find terrifying), but I'm still learning new things.

 

On topic: Regarding Velanna, I think that's sarcasm on her part. She knows that no explanation short of self-flagellation will satisfy Nathaniel, and she isn't about to do that. Since she's damned either way, she may as well make it count.

[Dai Grepher]

And...? How is that better?

Using humor to avoid acknowledging your misdeeds is part of being unremorseful.

 

It's better because she doesn't actually feel warm and fuzzy about murdering people.
 

[DebatableBubble]

There is, and should be, a difference between being hostile (especially in return for initial hostility) and being racist. Bioware doesn't seem to want to include racist options, and I think that's fine. But I don't think they should force us to be pleased with being treated like crap by someone.

And that makes me sad. I want to roleplay as a racist gdi. You could in ME1 and Origins.

[Tidus]

Do explain how banditry and attacking random passerbyers is 'righting a wrong' in any justifiable sense.

 

Please. I'm interested if you can do so in a way that doesn't validate blatant terrorism.

 First you will need to understand the way the Dalish thinks and then you will understand why Valanna did what she did. You have Dalish blood on your hands you will pay the price.

 

To her mind humans killed her small group and took her sister and with that thought she dealt out punishment hoping her sister would be return. She had no idea the Darkspawn did the killing and planted the weapons..

 

If you notice her actions got the merchant's guild  attention since they was losing caravans and that means they was losing money.. If humans had her sister the guild would be hollering the loudest to return her.

 

However.

 

There was bandits in those woods as well and how much damage did they do?

[Dean_the_Young]

 First you will need to understand the way the Dalish thinks and then you will understand why Valanna did what she did. You have Dalish blood on your hands you will pay the price.

 

To her mind humans killed her small group and took her sister-

 

'Paying the price' is irrelevant here. Righting a wrong is what Valanna supposedly was trying to do- so your metric will have to be whether it actually rights the wrong.

 

I'll accept 'killed her small group and took her sister' as two separate wrongs.

 

 

and with that thought she dealt out punishment hoping her sister would be return.

 

 

How does killing strangers right the wrong of killing her group? Does killing people bring them back from the dead?

 

Moreover, how will killing strangers help her sister return? What is the causal mechanism?

 

If the strangers know nothing, then they're innocent (which should matter) and it's hard to believe killing them will bring the sister back. Unless your intent is for the sister to come back to stop the murder of innocents out of disgust for her sister- but that implies the sister has free movement anyway and could choose to return if she wanted, and so was choosing to be away. In which case, there was no wrong, and Valanna's action is a monstrous plea for attention.

 

If the strangers do know where her sister is, how will killing them cause her to return? You're preventing any interrogation, or even a dialogue that could lead to an exchange. Any group with the resources and interest in kidnapping and holding the person isn't going to send key staff or guards to be killed either, they'll send expendible people, and so there's no reason to believe that killing strangers who might be associated with keeping her sister prisoner will in any way enable her sister to break free.

 

 

Neither of the wrongs are plausibly being righted by Valanna's indiscriminate attacks.

 

 

She had no idea the Darkspawn did the killing and planted the weapons.

 

She also had no idea which humans did the killing or planted the weapons either.

 

 

If you notice her actions got the merchant's guild  attention since they was losing caravans and that means they was losing money.. If humans had her sister the guild would be hollering the loudest to return her.

 

 

Ah, so terrorism it is then. If I kill enough innocent people, more moral people will do what I want.

 

Assuming they can. And wouldn't strike back just to stop and/or spit you.

 

 

And it still doesn't bring back the dead.
 

 

However.

 

There was bandits in those woods as well and how much damage did they do?

 

 

Irrelevant to how her actions actually righted wrongs.