757 réponses à ce sujet

[Tidus]

@Gileadan:  But some human in the distant past did something to some elf in the distant past!  OUTRAGE!

 

I believe that is called Hatfield/McCoy syndrome.

[berelinde]

If you read the stories in the ending of DA:A you will find Shems killed a Dalish child in the woods.

 

The humans need to take equal responsibility and stop killing Elves as a sport. Until that time Shems should be fair game in response to the needless killing of Elves.  

I just read all the Awakening epilogues, and I could not find a single reference to humans killing elves, juvenile or otherwise. I did find reference to Velanna saving a human village if her quest is completed, which was nice. And I found reference to rumors about elves sacking Amaranthine, but I doubt that's actually true. Had they done so, I'm sure we would have heard about it in DA2.

 

So, have you got a wiki link for that accusation?

 

For the record: You are, in actual fact, a human. Elvish is not your native language. Some people do role-play on the forums, assuming a racial identity, gender identity, or social status other than the one they have in real life, but if you're going to pretend to be a member of a fictional race, you can't expect people to take you seriously.

[Tidus]

Actually its from taking acting lessons and playing in a theater group for about 3 years-it was a hobby.

 

 

Watch the ending to Shack D's DA:A walk through. For some reason I can't copy and base.

[Evamitchelle]

I just read all the Awakening epilogues, and I could not find a single reference to humans killing elves, juvenile or otherwise. I did find reference to Velanna saving a human village if her quest is completed, which was nice. And I found reference to rumors about elves sacking Amaranthine, but I doubt that's actually true. Had they done so, I'm sure we would have heard about it in DA2.

 

So, have you got a wiki link for that accusation?

 

For the record: You are, in actual fact, a human. Elvish is not your native language. Some people do role-play on the forums, assuming a racial identity, gender identity, or social status other than the one they have in real life, but if you're going to pretend to be a member of a fictional race, you can't expect people to take you seriously.

 

"With Velanna and the Architect gone from the region, the Pilgrim's Path began to see traffic again. The massacre of the militiamen and the merchants, however, led to hostilities between the neighboring human settlements and any Dalish clans that passed by. One human villager soon kidnapped and murdered a Dalish child. The clans reacted by giving the Wending Wood a wide berth, but both sides know that at some point the elves will return for revenge."

 

It's in the 'Amaranthine' section of the epilogue in DAA. 

[Heimdall]

I only get annoyed at elves when they portray themselves as the eternal hapless victims while throwing racial slurs at humans. Sure, human oppression has been a major problem, but acting like elves had no part in the collapse in relations between the Dales and Orlais doesn't help. Dalish that act as bandits don't help, attacking humans doesn't help (Looking at you, Velanna).

Though in particular the Dalish attitude rubs me the wrong way because of the patronizing stance they take towards other elves. They see an Andrastian elf as a race traitor and teach their children that shems are the cause of all that ails them. No attitude of mutual respect can possibly emerge from such people.

I'm not giving humans a free pass here, but the Dalish are the ones who make racial antagonism the center of their culture.

[Tidus]

I only get annoyed at elves when they portray themselves as the eternal hapless victims while throwing racial slurs at humans. Sure, human oppression has been a major problem, but acting like elves had no part in the collapse in relations between the Dales and Orlais doesn't help. Dalish that act as bandits don't help, attacking humans doesn't help (Looking at you, Velanna).

Though in particular the Dalish attitude rubs me the wrong way because of the patronizing stance they take towards other elves. They see an Andrastian elf as a race traitor and teach their children that shems are the cause of all that ails them. No attitude of mutual respect can possibly emerge from such people.

I'm not giving humans a free pass here, but the Dalish are the ones who make racial antagonism the center of their culture.

 

The City Elves suffer under the humans as well some times for no reason other then humans can-think Vaughn and his two toadies.

 

Should the CEs defend their selves then the Alienage is purged and never mind the reason-Howe wasted no time purging the Alienage regardless of the reason Vaughn and his toadies was killed.

 

Again it seems raping and killing Elves is a human sport and even condoned by the Chantry since they say nothing in protest.. 

[Dean_the_Young]

The City Elves suffer under the humans as well some times for no reason other then humans can-think Vaughn and his two toadies.

 

Should the CEs defend their selves then the Alienage is purged and never mind the reason-Howe wasted no time purging the Alienage regardless of the reason Vaughn and his toadies was killed.

 

Again it seems raping and killing Elves is a human sport and even condoned by the Chantry since they say nothing in protest.. 

 

Since when were Vaughn and his two toadies synonymous with 'human', let alone enough to claim that raping and killing Elves is a 'human' sport?

 

And how do you know the Chantry said nothing in protest? Did not the Chantry sister protest Vaughn's actions on the spot?

 

[Heimdall]

The City Elves suffer under the humans as well some times for no reason other then humans can-think Vaughn and his two toadies.
 
Should the CEs defend their selves then the Alienage is purged and never mind the reason-Howe wasted no time purging the Alienage regardless of the reason Vaughn and his toadies was killed.
 
Again it seems raping and killing Elves is a human sport and even condoned by the Chantry since they say nothing in protest..

A 'human sport'? Perhaps a sport for select bored and cruel young nobles that like abusing their authority. Of course, we've also seen human nobles treat human women like that and as I recall that Chantry cleric did voice her opposition to Vaughn's behavior. The Chantry generally preaches good behavior, but it doesn't have the ability to enforce those standards when those who hold the reigns of rule decide to abuse their power.

[berelinde]

"With Velanna and the Architect gone from the region, the Pilgrim's Path began to see traffic again. The massacre of the militiamen and the merchants, however, led to hostilities between the neighboring human settlements and any Dalish clans that passed by. One human villager soon kidnapped and murdered a Dalish child. The clans reacted by giving the Wending Wood a wide berth, but both sides know that at some point the elves will return for revenge."

 

It's in the 'Amaranthine' section of the epilogue in DAA. 

Ah, thanks for the specifics. It's worthwhile to remember that the crime was committed in retaliation against Velanna's attacks against the militia and the merchants, but it was a crime nonetheless, and it illustrates how, exactly, Velanna's crimes harmed the Dalish. The Dalish have a hard enough life without one of their own deliberately turning the villagers against them. But it's going to continue, because they won't see that it was one stupid human causing trouble any more than the humans understood that it was just one Dalish murdering caravans. They're going to need a bigger "Get Along" shirt.

[ModernAcademic]

You forgot the biggest one.  
 
"Elves try to guilt-trip my human characters."

And then we learn they destroyed themselves.

This is why I love DA.

[Dai Grepher]

Clearly there is only one person who can secure peace between the humans and elves, and we all know who that is...

 

Spoiler

The Hero of Ferelden.

[berelinde]

Clearly there is only one person who can secure peace between the humans and elves, and we all know who that is...

 

Spoiler

The Hero of Ferelden.

   

[DebatableBubble]

In that case i would say that it wasn't entirely genuine as it was influenced by a spirit of the fade, it was more justice than Anders.

True, but it's not like Anders' feelings appeared out of thin air. Vengeance must have had a field day with him.

[Tidus]

A 'human sport'? Perhaps a sport for select bored and cruel young nobles that like abusing their authority. Of course, we've also seen human nobles treat human women like that and as I recall that Chantry cleric did voice her opposition to Vaughn's behavior. The Chantry generally preaches good behavior, but it doesn't have the ability to enforce those standards when those who hold the reigns of rule decide to abuse their power.

 

Indeed it is a sport.. Nobody cares for the Elves.. Yes,she tried so hard m 'lord we are having a wedding. Yup,real hard.

 

You need to talk to more Elves instead of hating them..

 

Humans is the main cause of the CE  daily suffering, rape and murder.

 

There's no denying that.

[DebatableBubble]

Yeah, talking to people you hate who hate you as well is a good idea. Wouldn't be here otherwise.

[LOLandStuff]

Remember those CE harassing that human who was just passing through? Fun times.

Or how you can threaten Duncan with if you play a CE. Even funnier.

[MisterJB]

Tidus, you need to understand that there isn't a ongoing war between humans and elves.

Humans already won.

[Heimdall]

Indeed it is a sport.. Nobody cares for the Elves.. Yes,she tried so hard m 'lord we are having a wedding. Yup,real hard.

You need to talk to more Elves instead of hating them..

Humans is the main cause of the CE daily suffering, rape and murder.

There's no denying that.

...Again, what is your basis for any of this? And seriously, what were you expecting that cleric to do, order Vaughn back to his room? Or would you rather she used her body as a human shield that would have accomplished nothing? The people who hold the power here are the nobles, the Chantry has no ability to stop them abusing that power.

There's no proof at all of humans in general killing and raping elves for sport, only a privileged minority that take almost if not as much liberty with the peasant humans.

[Evamitchelle]

The Dalish sure play a large part in keeping animosity between humans and elves alive and well, but when you look at the City Elves ? It's very obvious which side has all the power. If you want to take the Denerim alienage as an example: some elves threaten or harass passing humans ; recent human actions in the alienage include kidnapping elven women with the express intent of raping them, murdering those who resist (Nola, Nelaros) and killing so many elves in the orphanage (including children) it's attracting demons. Like, some of those things are not like the others.

 

The games have established a pattern of crimes against elves generally not being taken all that seriously. We are given several examples of humans who specifically target elves and suffer no consequences for their crimes (until the PC intervenes at least):

• Orlesian Chevaliers have a long-standing graduation tradition which consists in going to the elven slums at night and killing any elves they can find outside. This has apparently been going on for more than 500 years (see Alidda of Halamshiral during the Black Age).
• Vaughan Kendells is cruel to everyone, but it's noted that he's especially cruel to elves, who are barely more than animals to him. People have known for years that he's a sadistic psycho, but nothing is done about it until the PC gets involved.
• Kelder Vanard kidnaps, rapes and murders several elven children while under the protection of his magistrate father. 
• The two elven fugitives in DA2 said that they reported the guard who raped their sister but that nothing was done about it.
• In TME it's said that:"Comte Pierre of Halamshiral, who had indulged Lord Mainserai's activities as long as no humans were hurt, ordered the patrols increased throughout the slums of the city". Activities in this context largely seems to mean 'murdering elves'. His response to an elf throwing a rock at his coach is to have him hacked to pieces and the body parts hung around the city. The boy threw the rock because they'd killed his mother. 

Of course, it's part of a larger pattern of crimes from rich/powerful people against the poor/minorities being ignored as well: Liselle and her brother flee Orlais after he protects her from a would-be rapist chevalier, Quentin's murders in Kirkwall are overlooked, Fereldan refugees in Kirkwall are left to rot in Darktown etc. But what's unique to the city elves is that they're generally prevented from improving their station. Elves who try to move out of the alienage have a high risk of getting their houses burned down and ending up in the pauper's fields, they can't enter the Chantry, they don't have a representative in government (unless specific actions are taken by the PC). They can join the City Guard (that's what Valendrian hopes the City Elf Warden will become, Lia can join as well), but most of the guards we see in Denerim and Kirkwall are humans. 

 

The City Elves really get the short end of the stick. They're too elven for humans but too human for (most) Dalish. 

[Heimdall]

, they don't have a representative in government

Seeing as most governments in Thedas are hereditary monarchies rather than democracies, I'm not sure you can argue that makes them any different.

[Evamitchelle]

Seeing as most governments in Thedas are hereditary monarchies rather than democracies, I'm not sure you can argue that makes them any different.

Represented is probably not the right choice of word. My point is that humans generally have a local bann with a vested interest in keeping them safe (I seem to recall that banns can be replaced if they can't protect their people well enough), while city elves have to rely on the local human Lord. With an elven bann of the alienage it gives them someone knowledgeable about their concerns to speak for them.

[Dean_the_Young]

The games have established a pattern of crimes against elves generally not being taken all that seriously. We are given several examples of humans who specifically target elves and suffer no consequences for their crimes (until the PC intervenes at least):

 

-snip-

 

Of course, it's part of a larger pattern of crimes from rich/powerful people against the poor/minorities being ignored as well: Liselle and her brother flee Orlais after he protects her from a would-be rapist chevalier, Quentin's murders in Kirkwall are overlooked, Fereldan refugees in Kirkwall are left to rot in Darktown etc.

 

I agree with your broader point, but I think these two points are the most relevant.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again- what the elves face in the Dragon Age isn't mass opposition or antagonism by humans, but mass apathy and indifference. It's not that most humans are complicit in the abuse of elves- it's that they don't stop it. But this itself is also a reflection of the feudal power-structures in play: the people who worse abuse the elves also tend to abuse other humans, freuntly for the same sort of reasonings, and can get away with it because of power and rank. They neither require popular support to commit their acts, or face mass popular opposition that would reign them in.

 

This isn't a 'good' place to be, but social indiferance is different from mass condemnation and complicity in absuses. Treating indifferance as complcity blurs the lines and mis-represets the problem at hand.

[Evamitchelle]

I agree with your broader point, but I think these two points are the most relevant.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again- what the elves face in the Dragon Age isn't mass opposition or antagonism by humans, but mass apathy and indifference. It's not that most humans are complicit in the abuse of elves- it's that they don't stop it. But this itself is also a reflection of the feudal power-structures in play: the people who worse abuse the elves also tend to abuse other humans, freuntly for the same sort of reasonings, and can get away with it because of power and rank. They neither require popular support to commit their acts, or face mass popular opposition that would reign them in.

 

This isn't a 'good' place to be, but social indiferance is different from mass condemnation and complicity in absuses. Treating indifferance as complcity blurs the lines and mis-represets the problem at hand.

 

I think it goes beyond mass indifference. Certainly, most humans don't go out of their way to abuse elves, and I imagine most would even be appalled by Vaughan's behavior. But at the same time we've been told of several instances in which humans, of various backgrounds, are actively opposed to elves gaining more rights. 

• Elves who 'get a good break' and try to move out to the docks or the outskirts of town have their houses burned down.

• In Denerim, after elves gain more trading rights and their own militia it leads to "resistance from humans saw a rise of violence in the city", and the possible murder of the new bann of the alienage (Shianni is murdered by a human bigot, the unnamed bann is stoned to death by an angry mob outside the Landsmeet).

• When Celene forces the acceptance of elves into the upper markets and the university it leaves many people unhappy. "They claim that you tax them less, that you wish to let them run free from our laws. They say that you pity them, and some were speculating that you might have made secret deals with the Dalish to strip nobles of their lands and return the Dales to the elves."

• When Leliana removes race (and gender) restrictions surrounding the priesthood and returns the Canticle of Shartan to the canonical chant it's "a move that divided Andrastians deeply. A rebellion to renounce her and return the Chantry to its former state arose, beginning first in Orlais, then spreading to other parts of Thedas".

That's a non-negligible portion of humans actively trying to prevent city elves from having better lives. 

[Gothfather]

I suspect much of the "Elf hate" isn't actually hate for Elves but "hate" for the fan of elves.

 

On the BSN I "hate" Templar fans, Mage fans and Elf fans. These three groups all seem to magnify the injustices and failings of other groups in Dragon age lore and then ignore or excuse or minimize the injustices and failing of their preferred group. Bioware has gone out of their way to write no innocence in their lore but people still want view everything in black and white and cage their chosen group as the white hats and the others as the black hats.

[berelinde]

The Dalish sure play a large part in keeping animosity between humans and elves alive and well, but when you look at the City Elves ? It's very obvious which side has all the power. If you want to take the Denerim alienage as an example: some elves threaten or harass passing humans ; recent human actions in the alienage include kidnapping elven women with the express intent of raping them, murdering those who resist (Nola, Nelaros) and killing so many elves in the orphanage (including children) it's attracting demons. Like, some of those things are not like the others.

 

The games have established a pattern of crimes against elves generally not being taken all that seriously. We are given several examples of humans who specifically target elves and suffer no consequences for their crimes (until the PC intervenes at least):

• Orlesian Chevaliers have a long-standing graduation tradition which consists in going to the elven slums at night and killing any elves they can find outside. This has apparently been going on for more than 500 years (see Alidda of Halamshiral during the Black Age).
• Vaughan Kendells is cruel to everyone, but it's noted that he's especially cruel to elves, who are barely more than animals to him. People have known for years that he's a sadistic psycho, but nothing is done about it until the PC gets involved.
• Kelder Vanard kidnaps, rapes and murders several elven children while under the protection of his magistrate father. 
• The two elven fugitives in DA2 said that they reported the guard who raped their sister but that nothing was done about it.
• In TME it's said that:"Comte Pierre of Halamshiral, who had indulged Lord Mainserai's activities as long as no humans were hurt, ordered the patrols increased throughout the slums of the city". Activities in this context largely seems to mean 'murdering elves'. His response to an elf throwing a rock at his coach is to have him hacked to pieces and the body parts hung around the city. The boy threw the rock because they'd killed his mother. 

Of course, it's part of a larger pattern of crimes from rich/powerful people against the poor/minorities being ignored as well: Liselle and her brother flee Orlais after he protects her from a would-be rapist chevalier, Quentin's murders in Kirkwall are overlooked, Fereldan refugees in Kirkwall are left to rot in Darktown etc. But what's unique to the city elves is that they're generally prevented from improving their station. Elves who try to move out of the alienage have a high risk of getting their houses burned down and ending up in the pauper's fields, they can't enter the Chantry, they don't have a representative in government (unless specific actions are taken by the PC). They can join the City Guard (that's what Valendrian hopes the City Elf Warden will become, Lia can join as well), but most of the guards we see in Denerim and Kirkwall are humans. 

 

The City Elves really get the short end of the stick. They're too elven for humans but too human for (most) Dalish. 

All true.

 

City elves' situation is improving, but it's doing so slowly and with great effort by outsiders. This scenario is often a precursor to war. Groups don't revolt when they are at their lowest, with no hope of bettering their situation. They do it when there is hope, when they've experienced small gains that make them think that a better life is possible. One setback, and they start rattling sabers.

 

I'm not saying that city elves don't deserve better, or that they shouldn't rise up against obvious oppression. But if they are going to do it, they need to win, or retaliation will crush them. A just cause isn't enough to secure victory. They don't have the numbers for it, or the resources ("Nobody ever thinks about the arrows.") They're going to need allies, or they're going to need to stage a coup. And they're going to need to plan for counter-attack, or whatever victory they do achieve will be short lived.