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[nightscrawl]

I think most of the player dislike is for the Dalish, rather than city elves. It is especially easy to see the CEs as just downtrodden victims, even if some of them are bitter and resentful, whereas the Dalish are haughty, disdainful jerks.

[Tidus]

Nightscrawl, That's why I went from Dalish to CE not to mention the story line follows the CE better when you return to the Alienage.

 

The Dalish have just reasons to be angry but, seem to be extreme and have "poor us" attitude. Maybe the song about Sera's thoughts was correct-"Why change the past when you can own this day"? Maybe the Dalish should take that to heart.

[Vit246]

Well the Dalish do kinda have a reason to be "haughty", since they are the ones who did not surrender to the humans and gave up most of everything elven. They've preserved whats important to them and survived relatively for centuries, so its a bit of point of pride for them. Not that I approve of their haughtiness and disdain of course, but I understand it. And their "poor me" attitude is kinda justified since they don't have a homeland anymore and their ongoing troubles tend to come from humans and outsiders (not saying that the Dalish never instigate trouble, but christ, some people would have me believe that "humans did nothing wrong" and humans are the persecuted ones).

As for Sera, how the hell are the Dalish supposed to "own the day"? Everybody keeps saying a variation of this, but how?

[Tidus]

The Dalish could start living for today instead of dwelling on the past and that's how they "could own the day".

 

Learn their  history,keep their language   alive but, don't  dwell on the past since they can't change one thing that happen long ago.

 

It seems the story tellers keeps things stirred up by telling their worn out stories. You can't even tell that one guy to prepare a funeral for Tamlen without him wanting to tell about the fall of the Dales.

[Vit246]

"start living for today" 

Again with that platitude, you sound like Wynne, that stupid old crone. What does it even mean exactly in a tangible and practical sense?

Its kinda hard to stop "dwelling on the past" when its the reason why they are still living through the after effects as a scattered people without a homeland and under threat from humans for nearly 700 years. And once again, they don't have a homeland to use to start "living for today". And they will keep reminding themselves of that so long as they are forced to wander around and so they don't ever forget their own history or end up like their pitiful City Elf cousins. It's not like they have options to do something that can change their situation. All they can do is rage impotently at the injustice of it all. Its practically too cathartic for them not to do.

[Beerfish]

A good 1st start for the Dalish would be to NOT consort with demons that can wipe out your whole clan, they are surprising good at meddling with them with disastrous results.

[Dean_the_Young]

Well the Dalish do kinda have a reason to be "haughty", since they are the ones who did not surrender to the humans and gave up most of everything elven. They've preserved whats important to them and survived relatively for centuries, so its a bit of point of pride for them. Not that I approve of their haughtiness and disdain of course, but I understand it. And their "poor me" attitude is kinda justified since they don't have a homeland anymore and their ongoing troubles tend to come from humans and outsiders (not saying that the Dalish never instigate trouble, but christ, some people would have me believe that "humans did nothing wrong" and humans are the persecuted ones).

 

Who's telling you to believe that humans have done nothing wrong?

 

Or that humans are the (as in, implying singular) persecuted ones?

 

 

 

 

As for Sera, how the hell are the Dalish supposed to "own the day"? Everybody keeps saying a variation of this, but how?

 

 

The typical way is to focus on the future rather than dwelling on a (mythic, misremembered) past.

[Dean_the_Young]

"start living for today" 

Again with that platitude, you sound like Wynne, that stupid old crone.

 

 

Pro-tip- comparing someone to someone you immediately insult is also an insult.

 

 

 

What does it even mean exactly in a tangible and practical sense? Its kinda hard to stop "dwelling on the past" when its the reason why they are still living through the after effects as a scattered people without a homeland and under threat from humans for nearly 700 years.

 

 

Not directly linking everything that happens in the present to 700 years ago is a tangible, practical first step. Not doing so rather blinds them to every other context and potential development of the rest of the millenium.

 

Co-existence with humans is possible. Even permanent Dalish settlements are possible. Reapproachement with humans by admitting their own agency in their history is possible- and it really wouldn't require something like the Herald of Andraste delivering acheological proof to rub that in the faces.

 

Scattering was a choice in the face of a defeat at the time. Remaining scattered is a choice of the current era- not of 700 years ago.

 

 

And once again, they don't have a homeland to use to start "living for today". And they will keep reminding themselves of that so long as they are forced to wander around and so they don't ever forget their own history or end up like their pitiful City Elf cousins.

 

 

Except they've already forgotten their own history, and they are pitiful. Arguably more, since the only one forcing them to wander around is themselves.

 

The Dalish could have a homeland if they settled down and integrated with the people already living there. It might not be exclusively theirs- but exclusion isn't a requirement for a home, and integration doesn't mean giving up everything you have. Even the city elves maintain unique identities- and there's nothing indicating that there's deliberate attempts in the modern era to purge or force them to give up what they have.

 

Trying to live besides the local humans- or refusing to under the myth of true elfiness- is their choice they can make today, in the context of the context of today that can be shaped by their actions. It's not dictated by events 700 or more years ago, of contexts that they themselves don't truly understand.
 

 

 

It's not like they have options to do something that can change their situation. All they can do is rage impotently at the injustice of it all. Its practically too cathartic for them not to do.

 

 

Sure they have options. They can also try to make ties with humans to make more options. They can build relationships, leverage ties, build raports, and establish support networks and political alliances that, if not today, conceivably in the future give them chances for options they don't have now.

 

Saying they have no choice about trying, and no chance if they do, infatalizes them and treats them as incapable.

[Dai Grepher]

Velanna had it right. Fill a blank book with stories of your own. If only all elves took that advice.

 

Seriously, the plight of the elves is much more complicated, but "own this day" is a decent start. I think the moral of the story is, who cares what happened in the past? Focus on the here and now.

 

Elves don't have the numbers or the knowledge to fight humans. But they lack the drive to improve their lives, and that's the main problem holding them back. They need to find their way into the good graces of humans who will be sympathetic to their people. Good examples are Iona, who served Lady Landra. Or that one elf guy who married a rich human woman in the epilogue. Charter is another good example.

 

The city elves also need to pool their resources and help each other out. They need to develop their skills and teach each other those skills so they can move up together.

 

To borrow from my Lucrosian mage in Origins, the most important thing in the world is value. Even the weakest elf will not be killed by the most powerful tyrant if that tyrant values that elf. The elves have to make themselves too valuable to destroy or abuse.

[Dean_the_Young]

Velanna had it right. Fill a blank book with stories of your own. If only all elves took that advice.

 

Seriously, the plight of the elves is much more complicated, but "own this day" is a decent start. I think the moral of the story is, who cares what happened in the past? Focus on the here and now.

 

And even if you do care- writing their stories would help the Dalish anyways. How many Dalish actually are remembered in their history? One of the downsides of their oral history, aside from losing and ignoring historical facts, is how few people are actually remembered. Do the Dalish know who was in charge of the fall of the Dales? Do they even know what sort of government they had at the time?

 

Yes, a written history would be hard to carry around- but that it in and of itself would be a good forcing function to get build ties with humans. Find allies, supporters, academics who could store, and share, the culture for you. Start creating the means for a narrative to share and convince others- city elves, humans, whoever- rather than self-isolate and leave your reputation up to everyone else to share.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

We don't know how much they know.

[Dean_the_Young]

We don't know how much they know.

 

We do, however, know how they pass on their traditions- orally- and we know from both codexes and dialogue to listen to them what sort of information they consider important and pass down.

 

Read the Dalish codexies, listen to their legends, and try to count the names- and if you aren't the subject of the legend, you aren't important enough to be remembered (by name), if at all. Their own recounting of The Dales spends a mere sentence to summarize the war.

 

(For the record- other oral societies in the setting, like the Chasined, do the same thing. This is in no way an 'elf' thing as opposed to a cultural dynamic.)

[Vanilka]

Not directly linking everything that happens in the present to 700 years ago is a tangible, practical first step. Not doing so rather blinds them to every other context and potential development of the rest of the millenium.
 
Co-existence with humans is possible. Even permanent Dalish settlements are possible. Reapproachement with humans by admitting their own agency in their history is possible- and it really wouldn't require something like the Herald of Andraste delivering acheological proof to rub that in the faces.
 
Scattering was a choice in the face of a defeat at the time. Remaining scattered is a choice of the current era- not of 700 years ago.
 
 
Except they've already forgotten their own history, and they are pitiful. Arguably more, since the only one forcing them to wander around is themselves.
 
The Dalish could have a homeland if they settled down and integrated with the people already living there. It might not be exclusively theirs- but exclusion isn't a requirement for a home, and integration doesn't mean giving up everything you have. Even the city elves maintain unique identities- and there's nothing indicating that there's deliberate attempts in the modern era to purge or force them to give up what they have.
 
Trying to live besides the local humans- or refusing to under the myth of true elfiness- is their choice they can make today, in the context of the context of today that can be shaped by their actions. It's not dictated by events 700 or more years ago, of contexts that they themselves don't truly understand.
 
 
Sure they have options. They can also try to make ties with humans to make more options. They can build relationships, leverage ties, build raports, and establish support networks and political alliances that, if not today, conceivably in the future give them chances for options they don't have now.
 
Saying they have no choice about trying, and no chance if they do, infatalizes them and treats them as incapable.

 
I think the reason for them not staying anywhere for long is because humans aren't always all that happy to see them. The Dalish are still believed to be bandits and whatnot - whether that's true or not for individual clans that's another matter. Even Sabrae eventually get driven off, although that could be blamed on how Tamlen (and potentially the Dalish Warden) handle the encounter with the three humans in the forest. (And, yes, how Tamlen acted wasn't cool, I know. I know it doesn't excuse him, but he was young, rash and careless and eventually paid price for that sort of mindset, too.)
 
Yet another thing is that each Dalish clan has mages that are very important to how each clan is run (They're healers, leaders, keepers of knowledge, they help raise the children, etc.) and templars might and occasionally do try to come for them, just like they occasionally came for Flemeth.
 
I don't disagree that the Dalish should settle in one place. I think that would be a good place to start. But I don't think they can just come somewhere and take the land for themselves, either. I think that the owner of the land himself/herself wouldn't be particularly happy to get a random bunch of campers and freeloaders on their land. So I wonder where the Dalish are supposed to go should they decide to settle down...?
 
In my Dalish Warden playthrough, I asked the queen for lands for the Dalish in the hopes of starting such positive changes. I hoped I solved something; I was so naive. The Dalish Warden's foster mother was overjoyed about how she was going to build a house and how she couldn't wait to tell the other clans and how much it meant to them. The epilogue talked about there being tension between the newly formed Dalish lands and nearby humans, but Lanaya was said to be handling it well in my game. In my game, the Dalish, or at least some of them, finally had home and I hoped it would get better from there. The next thing I know, I find the Sabrae clan sitting near Kirkwall for ten years.   Not to even mention other "wonderful" changes made to the clan itself. (Do I sound bitter? I kind of am.) I don't remember it ever getting mentioned again, either. I understand they couldn't account for all decisions made in Origins in the following games, but I admit this in particular makes me kind of sad.
 
But anyway, I do think that the Dalish ways need to change. They need to be more open and try to stop isolating themselves so much. They need to try getting on humans' good side if they can. (I think some clans even do that. Or some of that. For example, clan Lavellan is said to trade with humans and they seem to be more open-minded. Sabrae, while wary, weren't very problematic until DAII. Then they kind of become a bag of d....) However, I think the issues are on both sides because while the Dalish still see humans as the cause of the current state of things and they're also stupidly proud, humans that are in the position to actually do something about it rarely do so (We know what most alienages look like. The elves get very little protection.), as well, and both sides still feel mutual distrust.
 
So, I agree that the way the Dalish think and act must change, but I also think it's more complicated than just them suddenly going, "Hey, what about we settled down on that hill there and stayed there forever? Sounds cool? Cool!" I'm sure the Dalish want to settle down, but finding a place they could own and feel safe in without eventually getting discovered and possibly driven away because nobody wants them there? I admit I'm not sure how.

[Gervaise]

The lack of stories for the Dalish is down to the writers, not the culture.   That's the problem with all this criticism.     The Dalish do know about their leading historical figures.    We discover that in Jaws of Hakkon.    Apparently his clan have been saying for years that he was one of them but the human historians ignored them.   So people might argue that a Dalish Inquisitor was ignorant of that history, therefore the Dalish generally do not know it.    This could be true.    Ameridan recalls that there are isolationists already in the Dales in his time who presumably do not approve of his working with the humans.     So it is possible he was left out of the stories for much the same reason that the Chantry omitted Shartan, because it didn't fit their politics.    However, it is also noticeable how back in DAO the storyteller doesn't actually name Shartan.    So may be the lore keepers do tend to play down the recent history, particularly when it involves co-operating with humans.   Except they love to stress how ungrateful the humans were, which would suggest they would keep bringing up names like Shartan and Ameridan to show what Orlais owed them.    So I feel the writing is at fault because a Dalish would know the stories of these elven heroes.   In a proper oral tradition, they would feature frequently.   This is an example where what has been said in the past by Dalish clans recalling their history and what is later revealed, just do not match up.

 

The Avaar have retained their culture unchanged for an even longer period than the Dalish.    Whilst individuals may do business with the lowlanders on the whole they have remained isolated by choice.    The only difference between the two cultures is that the Avaar still have an area that they can call a homeland, whilst the Dalish do not.    In fact some Dalish clans tried to make a home for themselves in the Frostbacks and got attacked by the Avaar.     The Avaar do not wish to integrate with the "modern" races.    They are not moving on.   They are mired in the past.    They worship pseudo gods.   Why do people not criticise them?    Because they are not elves it would seem.

 

Also with regard to the comment about Dalish involving themselves with demons,  both the clans that have done this were actually going against their culture as outlined in World of Thedas 1.  It specifically states with regard to magic that "unlike other spellcasters, Dalish mages do not use any magic involving spirits, as they believe all spirits are dangerous."    This would account for why the clan were so hostile to Merrill over her blood magic and relationship with a demon.   As for the clan in Masked Empire, either PW ignored this lore or my suggestion is correct that Felassan was actually behind the actions of the Keeper.    How would a Dalish Keeper know how to make a spirit trap if Dalish do not use magic involving spirits?

 

[myahele]

Yeah, i agree that when people think of hating elves, they think of the Dalish.

 

The City Elves are just trying to get by in their situation, yet their looked down by the Dalish. When a Dalish moves into an Alienage not many care or seem to discriminate. Yet when a City Elf tries to move in with the Dalish .... they're either turned away or mocked for the rest of their lives as "that City Elf"

 

It seems that many city elves have a bit of fascination regarding what little they know of the Dalish, but the same can't be said vice-versa.

[Dean_the_Young]

The lack of stories for the Dalish is down to the writers, not the culture.   That's the problem with all this criticism.     The Dalish do know about their leading historical figures.    We discover that in Jaws of Hakkon.    Apparently his clan have been saying for years that he was one of them but the human historians ignored them.   So people might argue that a Dalish Inquisitor was ignorant of that history, therefore the Dalish generally do not know it.    This could be true.    Ameridan recalls that there are isolationists already in the Dales in his time who presumably do not approve of his working with the humans.     So it is possible he was left out of the stories for much the same reason that the Chantry omitted Shartan, because it didn't fit their politics.    However, it is also noticeable how back in DAO the storyteller doesn't actually name Shartan.    So may be the lore keepers do tend to play down the recent history, particularly when it involves co-operating with humans.   Except they love to stress how ungrateful the humans were, which would suggest they would keep bringing up names like Shartan and Ameridan to show what Orlais owed them.    So I feel the writing is at fault because a Dalish would know the stories of these elven heroes.   In a proper oral tradition, they would feature frequently.   This is an example where what has been said in the past by Dalish clans recalling their history and what is later revealed, just do not match up.

 

I think you missed the point- the point isn't that the Dalish don't have heroes. The point is that elven history is pretty much inseparable from myth, because the heroes are the only ones they remember.

 

This isn't a factor of being Dalish, but a consequence of oral histories- without record keeping, the 'unimportant' and old people and names are left behind. Such nuances, however, are vitally important for understanding and remembering history.

 

 

The Avaar have retained their culture unchanged for an even longer period than the Dalish.    Whilst individuals may do business with the lowlanders on the whole they have remained isolated by choice.    The only difference between the two cultures is that the Avaar still have an area that they can call a homeland, whilst the Dalish do not.    In fact some Dalish clans tried to make a home for themselves in the Frostbacks and got attacked by the Avaar.     The Avaar do not wish to integrate with the "modern" races.    They are not moving on.   They are mired in the past.    They worship pseudo gods.   Why do people not criticise them?    Because they are not elves it would seem.

 

 

Or, alternatively, because Avaar rarely come up as a subject of conversation.

 

If you're looking for some sort of defense of them from me, you'll be waiting for awhile. I've no particular interest in the Avaar one way or the other- but they have the merit of (mostly) being content to claiming areas no one else wants, not nursing historical grievances, and allowing regular cultural contact with others. If the Avaar annoy fewer people than the Dalish, perhaps it's because they're less annoying than the Dalish, rather than because they're not elves.

 

 

 

 

Also with regard to the comment about Dalish involving themselves with demons,  both the clans that have done this were actually going against their culture as outlined in World of Thedas 1.  It specifically states with regard to magic that "unlike other spellcasters, Dalish mages do not use any magic involving spirits, as they believe all spirits are dangerous."    This would account for why the clan were so hostile to Merrill over her blood magic and relationship with a demon.   As for the clan in Masked Empire, either PW ignored this lore or my suggestion is correct that Felassan was actually behind the actions of the Keeper.    How would a Dalish Keeper know how to make a spirit trap if Dalish do not use magic involving spirits?

 

 

 

The same way Merrill knew how to deal with spirits- by regaining ancient lore and contacting with spirits.

 

Be careful not to exagerate what WoT actually says, and how what it says reflects what is. 'Using magic involving spirits' isn't the same as 'don't deal with spirits', and a cultural profession is not the same as a cultural practice. Publicly, the Circle Magi as a culture oppose blood magic- but there is a real movement of maleficarum in the Circles who preserve and spread the practices. The contradiction between profession and practice is ever worse in Tevinter.

[Dean_the_Young]

 
I think the reason for them not staying anywhere for long is because humans aren't always all that happy to see them. The Dalish are still believed to be bandits and whatnot - whether that's true or not for individual clans that's another matter. Even Sabrae eventually get driven off, although that could be blamed on how Tamlen (and potentially the Dalish Warden) handle the encounter with the three humans in the forest. (And, yes, how Tamlen acted wasn't cool, I know. I know it doesn't excuse him, but he was young, rash and careless and eventually paid price for that sort of mindset, too.) 

 

Oh, I agree with you. It's not an easy task. Humans aren't happy to see them, and still believe them to be bandits and whatnot- and that's what the Dalish need to work on as a precondition for acceptance by humans (because even non-racist humans will be against elves believed to be bandits), and it's something they can start on any time.

 

People like Tamlen are a problem that the Dalish not only need to address, but need to be seen addressing. It's not enough for a Keeper to scold him if he murders humans- if elves expect to live with humans and vice versa, both sides need to be able to expect justice. Elves that humans who commit injustice will be brought to account- and humans that elves who commit crimes will likewise be brought to account.

 

The Dalish can't do both on their own, but they don't need humans to do their part and they can't expect that human to be responsible for their own behavior. 'If the humans stop treating us like bandits, we'll stop being bandits' is a non-starter.

 

Yet another thing is that each Dalish clan has mages that are very important to how each clan is run (They're healers, leaders, keepers of knowledge, they help raise the children, etc.) and templars might and occasionally do try to come for them, just like they occasionally came for Flemeth.
 

 

 

I agree this is true. I question whether it is good- I have severe skepticism of defaulting to mageocracy. But most of all, I insist that this is a choice of the Dalish- mage do not need to be the leaders, keepers, child raisers, or anything else exclusive to other mundane elves.

 

This is a cultural choice. It will have benefits ('keeping our way of life'), and it will have costs (the mage skepticism of Andrastian thedas). It is up to the Dalish to decide whether it's worth it- and to make any efforts to convince others that their way is just as legitimate and won't affect the neighbors.

 

I don't disagree that the Dalish should settle in one place. I think that would be a good place to start. But I don't think they can just come somewhere and take the land for themselves, either. I think that the owner of the land himself/herself wouldn't be particularly happy to get a random bunch of campers and freeloaders on their land. So I wonder where the Dalish are supposed to go should they decide to settle down...?

 

 

It's definitely not simple, but there are a few main options.

 

First, they can go for unsettled lands. There's a lot of frontier, where there are few/no landowners worth the name, and make their presence a fait accompli. That's basically what the Dales were.

 

Second, they negotiate for ownership. This may require money, or building political capital, or both. Interacting with humans to gain acceptance.This was the idea of the Dalish boon in DAO.

 

Third, they can try for inhabitting someone else's lands peacefully. There's the permanent Dalish camp in Riveria (iirc), right outside the capital. Political relations are a must for maintaining such, but it is possible.

 

 

None of these are permanent, ironclad arrangmeents immune to future rollback- but then, nothing is. They are, however, options that can be pursued.

 
 

But anyway, I do think that the Dalish ways need to change. They need to be more open and try to stop isolating themselves so much. They need to try getting on humans' good side if they can. (I think some clans even do that. Or some of that. For example, clan Lavellan is said to trade with humans and they seem to be more open-minded. Sabrae, while wary, weren't very problematic until DAII. Then they kind of become a bag of d....) However, I think the issues are on both sides because while the Dalish still see humans as the cause of the current state of things and they're also stupidly proud, humans that are in the position to actually do something about it rarely do so (We know what most alienages look like. The elves get very little protection.), as well, and both sides still feel mutual distrust.
 
So, I agree that the way the Dalish think and act must change, but I also think it's more complicated than just them suddenly going, "Hey, what about we settled down on that hill there and stayed there forever? Sounds cool? Cool!" I'm sure the Dalish want to settle down, but finding a place they could own and feel safe in without eventually getting discovered and possibly driven away because nobody wants them there? I admit I'm not sure how.

 

 

I agree, and I think you're speaking well. There is a lot to do- on both sides.

 

 

Ultimately, though, whoever wants it can't just wait and hope the other side changes first- the people who want it most will have to change themselves first and do what they can. That's the key to catalyzing mutual acceptance.

[Gervaise]

Where do you get the idea that Dalish do not welcome city elves or "mock them" for the rest of their lives.    Layana was effectively a city elf, who was adopted into their clan and eventually became first to Zathrian.   Pol might have been teased a bit when he first jointed the Sabrae clan (in DAO) but there is no evidence that he was not considered one of their own after that.   Zevran ran away to the Dalish but returned to a life with the Crows, not because they rejected or they mocked him but because he didn't like the lifestyle.   The storekeeper in DAO said that the Dalish had left him with his belongings because he was an elf.     The Dalish aren't interested in finding out about city elves because the whole point of their culture is that they are free and independent of human society in contrast which the city elves who are not.   This is why the Dalish regard them with a degree of contempt, because the Dalish would rather die than submit. 

 

The only real example we have of a Dalish Keeper being less than welcoming is in Masked Empire, when PW also has Briala, and apparently other city elves, holding out the unreasonable hope that the Dalish are somehow working on their behalf.   Quite why they should think this is beyond me.   I would have thought the city elves would realise that the Dalish keep clear of human settlements for a reason and if they were working on their behalf, there would at least be some contact between them.   Actually the city elves in DAO were realistic about this; if you didn't like life in the alienage then you had the option of trying to find and join the Dalish but they didn't seem to be looking to them to help their situation in the city.    Where the Dalish do show prejudice is if one of their own leaves and goes in the opposite direction, since they seem reluctant to welcome them back if they change their mind.  I presume this is because they feel they "sold out" and betrayed their traditions.

 

I would also note that if you play a Dalish Inquisitor, your clan can get mixed up with events in Wycombe.   There is a point where your clan could flee when things start getting hostile but the Keeper refuses to do so because that would mean leaving the city elves to face the human aggressors on their own.   Make the wrong choice after this and your clan dies as a consequence; make the right choice and the Keeper is accepted onto the city council along with representatives of the city elves.    So which is more typical of the Dalish: the clan we meet in Masked Empire or clan Lavellan?      Also when you find out the truth about Red Crossing, if you give the information to the Dalish clan in the Exalted Plains, they wish to make a peace offering to improve relations.    So this is another example of the Dalish willing to move forward.   In fact the lad who joins the Inquisition says that the clans are watching with interest and hope when they see a Dalish Inquisitor.   Considering what happens in Trespasser, I should think they are rather disillusioned since it would naturally appear to them that the human rulers didn't like an elf having that much power.  

 

As for the bit about unimportant people being left behind by the oral histories, this is equally true of written ones, at least so far as Thedas is concerned.  The dwarves only tend to remember the important members of the community, such as kings, heroes and paragons.   The humans likewise celebrate the kings and warriors; how many ordinary people have been forgotten?    How much human history in Thedas is mixed up with myth?    

[berelinde]

And even if you do care- writing their stories would help the Dalish anyways. How many Dalish actually are remembered in their history? One of the downsides of their oral history, aside from losing and ignoring historical facts, is how few people are actually remembered. Do the Dalish know who was in charge of the fall of the Dales? Do they even know what sort of government they had at the time?

Most Dalish history consists of "The cruel, tyrannical humans did this. The cruel, tyrannical humans did that." They aren't writing the history of their people, they're filing a complaint. Have Dalish really done nothing noteworthy in the last thousand years? "You owe us a homeland" is an IOU, not a history. If they really are a proud people, they should be remembering the things they did for themselves - advances in art, science, culture - not the 7000 ways they're oppressed. I don't subscribe to the belief that societies with oral traditions are incapable of remembering their own achievements. We know more about neolithic cave dwellers through their paintings than we do about the Dalish, and they were nomadic, too. More than a thousand years after the fact, Beowulf remains an epic tale, and it's a crucial part of English verbal and cultural tradition. It wasn't recorded in actual writing until hundreds of years after its origin because the people involved in it kept their history alive through sung ballads. Heck, the Edda is even older than that, and it still remains a mostly verbal tradition. Nobody is saying that either of these is 100% factual. They don't have to be. It's the cultural values - what the people involved considered heroic - that's important, not the actual events. Evidently, what the Dalish consider important is complaining about humans. If they're wondering why no one is clamoring to preserve their history, that may be the reason.

[Dean_the_Young]

Where do you get the idea that Dalish do not welcome city elves or "mock them" for the rest of their lives.    Layana was effectively a city elf, who was adopted into their clan and eventually became first to Zathrian.   Pol might have been teased a bit when he first jointed the Sabrae clan (in DAO) but there is no evidence that he was not considered one of their own after that.   Zevran ran away to the Dalish but returned to a life with the Crows, not because they rejected or they mocked him but because he didn't like the lifestyle.   The storekeeper in DAO said that the Dalish had left him with his belongings because he was an elf.     The Dalish aren't interested in finding out about city elves because the whole point of their culture is that they are free and independent of human society in contrast which the city elves who are not.   This is why the Dalish regard them with a degree of contempt, because the Dalish would rather die than submit.

 

We get the idea from, as you yourself point out, the contempt. And the integration issues.

 

These do not mean that integration doesn't occur- only that there is a cultural chauvenism going on. Especially when it is the 'whole point' of the culture.

 

 

 

I would also note that if you play a Dalish Inquisitor, your clan can get mixed up with events in Wycombe.   There is a point where your clan could flee when things start getting hostile but the Keeper refuses to do so because that would mean leaving the city elves to face the human aggressors on their own.   Make the wrong choice after this and your clan dies as a consequence; make the right choice and the Keeper is accepted onto the city council along with representatives of the city elves.    So which is more typical of the Dalish: the clan we meet in Masked Empire or clan Lavellan?      Also when you find out the truth about Red Crossing, if you give the information to the Dalish clan in the Exalted Plains, they wish to make a peace offering to improve relations.    So this is another example of the Dalish willing to move forward.   In fact the lad who joins the Inquisition says that the clans are watching with interest and hope when they see a Dalish Inquisitor.   Considering what happens in Trespasser, I should think they are rather disillusioned since it would naturally appear to them that the human rulers didn't like an elf having that much power.  

 

 

I'm honestly unsure of what you're trying to argue, because there's nothing in particular you're arguing against. There are different types of clans, and some clans are dabbling at what people like myself recommend. We applaud these efforts, use them as examplars in contrast to those who don't- without, of course, ignorring other flaws they might have.

 

The question of a 'typical' Dalish clan is a difficult one, because the Dalish are culturally fragmenting.

 

 

 

As for the bit about unimportant people being left behind by the oral histories, this is equally true of written ones, at least so far as Thedas is concerned.  The dwarves only tend to remember the important members of the community, such as kings, heroes and paragons.   The humans likewise celebrate the kings and warriors; how many ordinary people have been forgotten?    How much human history in Thedas is mixed up with myth?    

 

 

 

It's irrelevant, because you're making a false equivalence of the point. All histories are suspect, but not equally so- the issue isn't in the allowance of bias, but in the retention of data. Writing and records, even biased ones allow for greater retention of data over time- which, by extension, allows better cross-reference, comparison, and validation. They are also less (not perfectly, but less) mutable over time- as long as the record exists, it can be re-examined. Oral tradition is a cross-generation game of telephone hear-say.

 

The gold standard isn't 'the ordinary people'- it's the retention of contextually important people, places, and things who don't make for the hero of the oral histories, and then keeping that data consistent.

[Vanilka]

Oh, I agree with you. It's not an easy task. Humans aren't happy to see them, and still believe them to be bandits and whatnot- and that's what the Dalish need to work on as a precondition for acceptance by humans (because even non-racist humans will be against elves believed to be bandits), and it's something they can start on any time.

 

People like Tamlen are a problem that the Dalish not only need to address, but need to be seen addressing. It's not enough for a Keeper to scold him if he murders humans- if elves expect to live with humans and vice versa, both sides need to be able to expect justice. Elves that humans who commit injustice will be brought to account- and humans that elves who commit crimes will likewise be brought to account.

 

The Dalish can't do both on their own, but they don't need humans to do their part and they can't expect that human to be responsible for their own behavior. 'If the humans stop treating us like bandits, we'll stop being bandits' is a non-starter.

 

 

I agree this is true. I question whether it is good- I have severe skepticism of defaulting to mageocracy. But most of all, I insist that this is a choice of the Dalish- mage do not need to be the leaders, keepers, child raisers, or anything else exclusive to other mundane elves.

 

This is a cultural choice. It will have benefits ('keeping our way of life'), and it will have costs (the mage skepticism of Andrastian thedas). It is up to the Dalish to decide whether it's worth it- and to make any efforts to convince others that their way is just as legitimate and won't affect the neighbors.

 

 

It's definitely not simple, but there are a few main options.

 

First, they can go for unsettled lands. There's a lot of frontier, where there are few/no landowners worth the name, and make their presence a fait accompli. That's basically what the Dales were.

 

Second, they negotiate for ownership. This may require money, or building political capital, or both. Interacting with humans to gain acceptance.This was the idea of the Dalish boon in DAO.

 

Third, they can try for inhabitting someone else's lands peacefully. There's the permanent Dalish camp in Riveria (iirc), right outside the capital. Political relations are a must for maintaining such, but it is possible.

 

 

None of these are permanent, ironclad arrangmeents immune to future rollback- but then, nothing is. They are, however, options that can be pursued.

 
 

I agree, and I think you're speaking well. There is a lot to do- on both sides.

 

 

Ultimately, though, whoever wants it can't just wait and hope the other side changes first- the people who want it most will have to change themselves first and do what they can. That's the key to catalyzing mutual acceptance.

 

I agree. I think the change needs to start from within. In both cases. It's perhaps a little foolish in a game that allows you to play multiple races, but I've always hoped that when a Dalish becomes the Hero of Ferelden or if they do a good job as the Inquisitor, or even both, perhaps it could make both humans and elves reconsider their stance, give them inspiration for a change. Of course, one person alone cannot change the world. Unless (cough) you're (cough) Solas. (cough) The Hero of Ferelden could be Dalish all they want if the rest of them don't change anything about how they act towards humans. While they definitely don't carry all responsibility for future development, they can and should be an active part of that change.

 

When it comes to mages and Dalish, you make a good point that having to be a mage in order to lead a clan perhaps isn't for the best. (I understand having a need for a mage, though. Mahariel would die if it weren't for Marethari and her magic. And, of course, mages are invaluable in combat should any occur.) On the other hand, mages will still keep being born and I'm not sure that the Dalish would be willing to give them up because they're still their own, family and friends. Mages are also rather useful. Moreover, the Circles and such are the Chantry's idea of handling things. (We know the Dalish think extremely poorly of the Chantry.) And what they do is that they condemn mages to life in captivity. The Dalish would have to submit to the Chantry or send their mages away. Some clans have got rid of their extra mages that way, sent them off to the woods to fend for themselves, which is very cruel. So while I believe some clans might be willing to get rid of their mages, many would not, whether because they're some of their own or because they need a mage around, and especially not to the Chantry. The only answer for such clans would be, as you stated before, to move somewhere far away, perhaps to find a place that doesn't belong to anybody or to a place that doesn't have trouble with accepting Dalish and magic. Under the influence of the Chantry, things won't be easy. On the other hand, I'm actually very interested what the next game's going to bring because in DAII and DAI we see the Circles and the Chantry crumble. If there's any chance mages would be allowed a choice to also live free, it may improve the situation for the Dalish, as well... That's in case Solas won't lead elves to the war with all the other races, which I'm afraid is likely to happen now... Given Trespasser's epilogue, I think that the next game might be about everybody vs. elves that joined Solas in the pursuit to destroy the world for their own benefit.

 

But, anyway, I think you make some interesting suggestions how some this could be solved. I especially like the idea with gaining ownership over a piece of land. I worry what the reaction of neighbouring humans would be. I still like the idea because it sounds practical.

[Dean_the_Young]

I agree. I think the change needs to start from within. In both cases. It's perhaps a little foolish in a game that allows you to play multiple races, but I've always hoped that when a Dalish becomes the Hero of Ferelden or if they do a good job as the Inquisitor, or even both, perhaps it could make both humans and elves reconsider their stance, give them inspiration for a change. Of course, one person alone cannot change the world. Unless (cough) you're (cough) Solas. (cough) The Hero of Ferelden could be Dalish all they want if the rest of them don't change anything about how they act towards humans. While they definitely don't carry all responsibility for future development, they can and should be an active part of that change.

 

People don't have collective responsibility, but cultures are judged not just  by what they do, but what they tolerate. That's part of why humans get tarred with such a wide brush as if they were monolithic 'the humans', even though plenty of humans fought against, say, Tevinter and slavery. On the other hand, the unwillingness to accept and willingness to separate- to be something other than Tevinter, such as 'Orlesian', is also what separates most humans from Thedas from Tevinter. The sins of Tevinter are not the sins of the human race because much, most, of the Human race opposes Tevinter.

 

This concept is what hurts the Dalish- they collectively identify with eachother, despite the bad actors. It's not enough to say 'that's another clan, but we're different'- as long as both clans identify to the same identity ('true elves'), then until the 'good true elves' ostracize or expunge the 'bad true elves', all 'true elves' will be associated with the worst. Dalish is as Dalish does- not because they're all elves, but because they claim the same culture and identity despite the fragmentation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

When it comes to mages and Dalish, you make a good point that having to be a mage in order to lead a clan perhaps isn't for the best. (I understand having a need for a mage, though. Mahariel would die if it weren't for Marethari and her magic. And, of course, mages are invaluable in combat should any occur.) On the other hand, mages will still keep being born and I'm not sure that the Dalish would be willing to give them up because they're still their own, family and friends. Mages are also rather useful. Moreover, the Circles and such are the Chantry's idea of handling things. (We know the Dalish think extremely poorly of the Chantry.) And what they do is that they condemn mages to life in captivity. The Dalish would have to submit to the Chantry or send their mages away. Some clans have got rid of their extra mages that way, sent them off to the woods to fend for themselves, which is very cruel. So while I believe some clans might be willing to get rid of their mages, many would not, whether because they're some of their own or because they need a mage around, and especially not to the Chantry. The only answer for such clans would be, as you stated before, to move somewhere far away, perhaps to find a place that doesn't belong to anybody or to a place that doesn't have trouble with accepting Dalish and magic. Under the influence of the Chantry, things won't be easy. On the other hand, I'm actually very interested what the next game's going to bring because in DAII and DAI we see the Circles and the Chantry crumble. If there's any chance mages would be allowed a choice to also live free, it may improve the situation for the Dalish, as well... That's in case Solas won't lead elves to the war with all the other races, which I'm afraid is likely to happen now... Given Trespasser's epilogue, I think that the next game might be about everybody vs. elves that joined Solas in the pursuit to destroy the world for their own benefit.

 

 

Mages are probably the single biggest political obstacle the Dalish in Southern Thedas have, and it's something the Dalish probably should question and consider a lot more explicitly than they do. It could be a key to getting some sort of settlement.

 

No matter what the Chantry was seven centuries ago, the modern Chantry is not in the business of converting heathens by the sword. The modern Chantry is in the business of international mediation, and mage management- and that's it's biggest beef with the Dalish. It's a half-hearted antagonism at best- according to Merrill even the Templars at the biggest, most fanatical Templar stronghold of Kirkwall only shoo them away if they're too close for too long- but Andrastians are particular about magic and Dalish in Andrastian lands need to accept that.

 

If Dalish were willing to give up mages, they'd lose one of the primary friction points with the ultimate moral authority of Southern Thedas. Unless things radically change, the Chantry wouldn't have cause or motive to disperse encampments (until/unless something else gave reason), and such a decision might even be leveraged to get support for settling.

 

Giving up mages would not be 'submission to the Chantry'- a policy concession in one are does not mean a dictated policy in all areas. It would be a political compromise, and one that- with wisdom- might be leveraged for gains in other areas.

 

 

And that's if the Dalish had to give up mages at all. We know that there were rare exceptions to the Chantry's mage policies- Tevinter magisters were free to come to Kirkwall, and there's the whole order of Grey Wardens- and with the emergent Circle and College system there's opening there as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

But, anyway, I think you make some interesting suggestions how some this could be solved. I especially like the idea with gaining ownership over a piece of land. I worry what the reaction of neighbouring humans would be. I still like the idea because it sounds practical.

 

 

The 'best' route might be to build good ties first, then get the land. If your would-be neighbors already like you, there's less likely to be a problem with your homestead.

[myahele]

And that's when argument regarding the Dalish begins and end: each clan is different. One account of Dalish doing X will be met with another clan doing Y.

 

They're really not this one homogenized group anymore. The only thing they have in common with each other is isolating themselves from human settlements.

 

Still, Dalish inconsistency is alot better than the inconsistency that the Qun have

[Jedi Master of Orion]

We do, however, know how they pass on their traditions- orally- and we know from both codexes and dialogue to listen to them what sort of information they consider important and pass down.

Read the Dalish codexies, listen to their legends, and try to count the names- and if you aren't the subject of the legend, you aren't important enough to be remembered (by name), if at all. Their own recounting of The Dales spends a mere sentence to summarize the war.

(For the record- other oral societies in the setting, like the Chasined, do the same thing. This is in no way an 'elf' thing as opposed to a cultural dynamic.)

That's because it has fit into a single entry for players to get the pertinent information. The fact that the game reveals that level of knowledge doesn't mean it's the sum total of their knowledge.

[Dean_the_Young]

That's because it has fit into a single entry for players to get the pertinent information. The fact that the game reveals that level of knowledge doesn't mean it's the sum total of their knowledge.

 

And I didn't say it was- but it is illustrative of the approach the culture takes towards remembering its history and telling it's narrative. An approach that is consistently upheld in different subjects, and reflects the external limitations and constraints of the Dalish as a nomadic people.