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[ModernAcademic]

The irony is that a Dalish had a taste of the prejudice his\her people nurture toward city elves at the hands of the Sentinels, who guard the Temple of Mythal.

 

Abelas even goes further on to bluntly state that "Elven legend" is wrong, meaning the Dalish, who consider themselves all-knowledgeable about the History and culture of their people - ever since the time or Arlathan, as they like to boast -, who repeatedly accuse city elves of having forgotten their past, have believed all along in a bunch of fairy tales.

 

They even condemned the one elf who tried to save them from the cruelty of the mage slavers.

[fhs33721]

They even condemned the one elf who tried to save them from the cruelty of the mage slavers.

Well in their defense, he was also kind of responsible for the complete downfall of their civilization.

[Vit246]

 

They even condemned the one elf who tried to save them from the cruelty of the mage slavers.

Well it's not like they had any way to know better and its not like Solas advertised that fact into their history books before going to deep sleep. Either way he still caused the downfall of their civilization. It's natural they needed to blame someone, and they weren't completely wrong in blaming that one elf.

[ModernAcademic]

Well in their defense, he was also kind of responsible for the complete downfall of their civilization.

 

I don't know, man. I think the Evanuris were responsible for it. Arlathan could have been living its last stage and have entered moral decadence. Remember when you visit the Temple of Mythal and Solas gives his version of each of the Elven gods in the mosaic murals? He says Falon Din loved blood rituals, for example. The blood of his victims could fill a lake.

 

Solas might have realised the excesses of the Evanuris and stopped them before they did something that would literally end their civilization and the world. He hints at a magic that could tear the world apart it in the end of Trespasser. The Veil was a desperate measure to avoid something worse. So he didn't quite end the civilization of Arlathan. He avoided its complete destruction by the hands of the Evanuris and possibly the destruction of the world. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The irony is that a Dalish had a taste of the prejudice his\her people nurture toward city elves at the hands of the Sentinels, who guard the Temple of Mythal.

Abelas even goes further on to bluntly state that "Elven legend" is wrong, meaning the Dalish, who consider themselves all-knowledgeable about the History and culture of their people - ever since the time or Arlathan, as they like to boast -, who repeatedly accuse city elves of having forgotten their past, have believed all along in a bunch of fairy tales.

They even condemned the one elf who tried to save them from the cruelty of the mage slavers.

Obviously the Dalish don't consider themselves "all knowledgeable." The entire root of their bitterness is that there is so much they don't know, despite their best efforts.

[Dean_the_Young]

Obviously the Dalish don't consider themselves "all knowledgeable." The entire root of their bitterness is that there is so much they don't know, despite their best efforts.

 

The Dalish don't consider themselves omniscient about ancient elven culture, but they do believe that what they know is fundamentally True. That they remember, restore, and preserve the True Elven culture, and that what they understand is significantly aligned with what was.

 

It's their claim to legitimacy as the Elfiest of Elves, and is what allows them to look down on the city elves who, unlike them, have distorted or turned away from the True Elf Way.

[straykat]

The Dalish don't consider themselves omniscient about ancient elven culture, but they do believe that what they know is fundamentally True. That they remember, restore, and preserve the True Elven culture, and that what they understand is significantly aligned with what was.

 

It's their claim to legitimacy as the Elfiest of Elves, and is what allows them to look down on the city elves who, unlike them, have distorted or turned away from the True Elf Way.

 

I don't mind their attitude though.

 

For the time being, the City Elves are the closest thing I have to a human commoner (besides Hawke). I like playing characters like this (I don't mind Dalish either, but it's a different mindset).

 

Let the Dalish kick them around. If I play a City Elf, I barely care about being an elf in the first place. So the Dalish sense of superiority means nothing. Playing a city elf is a more of a lower social class mindset I get into, rather than anything to do with race specifically.

 

And they nailed it with Sera. She doesn't care either. The same way I never cared on my DAO CE.

 

If anything, I'm more annoyed that dwarves are sucking the fun out of this.. because they keep introducing surface/Carta types. I'd prefer they not bundle them now with the streetwise rogue archetype. It's just a waste.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Dalish don't consider themselves omniscient about ancient elven culture, but they do believe that what they know is fundamentally True. That they remember, restore, and preserve the True Elven culture, and that what they understand is significantly aligned with what was.

 

It's their claim to legitimacy as the Elfiest of Elves, and is what allows them to look down on the city elves who, unlike them, have distorted or turned away from the True Elf Way.

 

I know, but nothing about "believing what they know to be fundamentally true", and "looking down on others of their kind" is uniquely Dalish or even elven at all.

[Dean_the_Young]

I know, but nothing about "believing what they know to be fundamentally true", and "looking down on others of their kind" is uniquely Dalish or even elven at all.

 

Was anyone suggesting it was?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

That just seemed like the underlying implication of bringing up the irony of Ableas' comments to a Dalish Inquisitor.

[Dean_the_Young]

That just seemed like the underlying implication of bringing up the irony of Ableas' comments to a Dalish Inquisitor.

 

How so?

 

A criticism doesn't have to be unique to someone to be valid. What makes you think that criticism of unfounded cultural chavenism wouldn't be a criticism for non-elves or non-Dalish?

[Deanna Troy]

You know the funny thing? As I was reading this thread I am watching Star Trek Voyager Season 3 Episode 19 and Neelix just now was talking to Tuvok, a vulcan (you know, that [space] race with pointed ears) saying how he knows Tuvok hates him but he still respected Tuvok because Tuvok was stronger, logical, smarter and superior to him in almost every way but that he was tired of it.

So, I guess this summarizes the thread?

As for me I absolutely love humanoid superpowerful races, and I think humans are boring, I love Elves, Vulcans and any other space, futuristic, medieval or whatever other variation it comes. Why would someone hate someone who is better? They are better than us, we are no better than ants compared to them. If humans join like one billion beings and fight against other superior beings sometimes they could win, but they are still inferior, and I like it.

The sad part is that most stories actually try to show how humans can best their betters with effort, friendship, love and other boring human things. This is the sad thing. An Asari, a Vulcan or an Elf (one form before the veil like Solas), should just step on humans effortlessly, because they are more powerful, inteligent, magical (or biotic for asari or focused for a vulcan) AND have more experience (which never works for them, only for humans). Fantasy stories actually do a lot of plot service for humans show how humanity is all about being the best despite not being the best at anything at all.

As I said, humans are like ants (boring ants) and I'm ok with them overcoming better races by numbers (and only in some settings, in high fantasy setting not even 7 billion humans would pose threat to powerful beings) but in 1x1 confrontations or even in parties like DA, it is completely absurd to even consider a human fighting against their betters. I'm ok with that in DA because elven are only a faint resonance of what they once were. But seriously to think that a human can even pose danger to an Asari Matriarch makes me laugh. Same with RPG having 40 year old humans being able to fight and defeat a 400 year old elf master mage lord... so if I have to hate anything, I hate humans thinking they are the best, and I hate them hating other races just because they don't know how to lose, because they don't accept that they are like ants compared to other races.

[DebatableBubble]

You know the funny thing? As I was reading this thread I am watching Star Trek Voyager Season 3 Episode 19 and Neelix just now was talking to Tuvok, a vulcan (you know, that [space] race with pointed ears) saying how he knows Tuvok hates him but he still respected Tuvok because Tuvok was stronger, logical, smarter and superior to him in almost every way but that he was tired of it.
So, I guess this summarizes the thread?
As for me I absolutely love humanoid superpowerful races, and I think humans are boring, I love Elves, Vulcans and any other space, futuristic, medieval or whatever other variation it comes. Why would someone hate someone who is better? They are better than us, we are no better than ants compared to them. If humans join like one billion beings and fight against other superior beings sometimes they could win, but they are still inferior, and I like it.
The sad part is that most stories actually try to show how humans can best their betters with effort, friendship, love and other boring human things. This is the sad thing. An Asari, a Vulcan or an Elf (one form before the veil like Solas), should just step on humans effortlessly, because they are more powerful, inteligent, magical (or biotic for asari or focused for a vulcan) AND have more experience (which never works for them, only for humans). Fantasy stories actually do a lot of plot service for humans show how humanity is all about being the best despite not being the best at anything at all.
As I said, humans are like ants (boring ants) and I'm ok with them overcoming better races by numbers (and only in some settings, in high fantasy setting not even 7 billion humans would pose threat to powerful beings) but in 1x1 confrontations or even in parties like DA, it is completely absurd to even consider a human fighting against their betters. I'm ok with that in DA because elven are only a faint resonance of what they once were. But seriously to think that a human can even pose danger to an Asari Matriarch makes me laugh. Same with RPG having 40 year old humans being able to fight and defeat a 400 year old elf master mage lord... so if I have to hate anything, I hate humans thinking they are the best, and I hate them hating other races just because they don't know how to lose, because they don't accept that they are like ants compared to other races.

Not really.

[nightscrawl]

You know the funny thing? As I was reading this thread I am watching Star Trek Voyager Season 3 Episode 19 and Neelix just now was talking to Tuvok, a vulcan (you know, that [space] race with pointed ears) saying how he knows Tuvok hates him but he still respected Tuvok because Tuvok was stronger, logical, smarter and superior to him in almost every way but that he was tired of it.

So, I guess this summarizes the thread?

As for me I absolutely love humanoid superpowerful races, and I think humans are boring, I love Elves, Vulcans and any other space, futuristic, medieval or whatever other variation it comes. Why would someone hate someone who is better? They are better than us, we are no better than ants compared to them. If humans join like one billion beings and fight against other superior beings sometimes they could win, but they are still inferior, and I like it.

The sad part is that most stories actually try to show how humans can best their betters with effort, friendship, love and other boring human things. This is the sad thing. An Asari, a Vulcan or an Elf (one form before the veil like Solas), should just step on humans effortlessly, because they are more powerful, inteligent, magical (or biotic for asari or focused for a vulcan) AND have more experience (which never works for them, only for humans). Fantasy stories actually do a lot of plot service for humans show how humanity is all about being the best despite not being the best at anything at all.

As I said, humans are like ants (boring ants) and I'm ok with them overcoming better races by numbers (and only in some settings, in high fantasy setting not even 7 billion humans would pose threat to powerful beings) but in 1x1 confrontations or even in parties like DA, it is completely absurd to even consider a human fighting against their betters. I'm ok with that in DA because elven are only a faint resonance of what they once were. But seriously to think that a human can even pose danger to an Asari Matriarch makes me laugh. Same with RPG having 40 year old humans being able to fight and defeat a 400 year old elf master mage lord... so if I have to hate anything, I hate humans thinking they are the best, and I hate them hating other races just because they don't know how to lose, because they don't accept that they are like ants compared to other races.

 

I don't understand the point of this post. You even admit that modern Thedosian elves are NOT "better" in any way, shape, or form than humans, or dwarves or qunari.

 

I don't know how Tuvok was developed over the run of Voyager as I only watched the first season. Likewise with T'pol on Enterprise. However, one of the things I did NOT like about them (at the start of the show) was their attitude of superiority, which Spock NEVER had. He never believed that the mere fact of his being a vulcan (even half) meant that he was better, even if he disagreed with some of the more militaristic (read: violent) approaches to some issues. And neither did Spock's father, Sarek for that matter, who had more cause as a full-blooded high-ranking vulcan.

 

Tuvok and T'pol came across as bigots -- again, I reiterate, at the start of their respective shows. The thing that makes them different from Spock is that he knew that whatever genetic advantages he had as a vulcan, higher intellect, a stronger body (in earth gravity), and so on does not make him better, only different. If he thought he was superior he would never have regarded Kirk, the sometimes emotionally volatile Kirk, as his best friend, and praised him as a leader because of those very human traits.

 

Vulcans can be bigots, just like humans can be bigots, and DA elves can be bigots. Or they don't have to be. The choice is theirs. You might then say, "It's not bigotry if you are, in fact, superior, as Solas is." But yes, he is still a bigot in believing that he has more worth than other sentient beings simply because he drew the "right" cards at birth.

[In Exile]

Obviously the Dalish don't consider themselves "all knowledgeable." The entire root of their bitterness is that there is so much they don't know, despite their best efforts.

As Dean points out, the Dalish very much belive that their current theories about the past are true even if they are of the view that their account is incomplete. For example, the Dalish quite firmly believe that that humans are plague bearing vermin whose mere presence cost them immortality.

[In Exile]

You know the funny thing? As I was reading this thread I am watching Star Trek Voyager Season 3 Episode 19 and Neelix just now was talking to Tuvok, a vulcan (you know, that [space] race with pointed ears) saying how he knows Tuvok hates him but he still respected Tuvok because Tuvok was stronger, logical, smarter and superior to him in almost every way but that he was tired of it.

So, I guess this summarizes the thread?

As for me I absolutely love humanoid superpowerful races, and I think humans are boring, I love Elves, Vulcans and any other space, futuristic, medieval or whatever other variation it comes. Why would someone hate someone who is better? They are better than us, we are no better than ants compared to them. If humans join like one billion beings and fight against other superior beings sometimes they could win, but they are still inferior, and I like it.

The sad part is that most stories actually try to show how humans can best their betters with effort, friendship, love and other boring human things. This is the sad thing. An Asari, a Vulcan or an Elf (one form before the veil like Solas), should just step on humans effortlessly, because they are more powerful, inteligent, magical (or biotic for asari or focused for a vulcan) AND have more experience (which never works for them, only for humans). Fantasy stories actually do a lot of plot service for humans show how humanity is all about being the best despite not being the best at anything at all.

As I said, humans are like ants (boring ants) and I'm ok with them overcoming better races by numbers (and only in some settings, in high fantasy setting not even 7 billion humans would pose threat to powerful beings) but in 1x1 confrontations or even in parties like DA, it is completely absurd to even consider a human fighting against their betters. I'm ok with that in DA because elven are only a faint resonance of what they once were. But seriously to think that a human can even pose danger to an Asari Matriarch makes me laugh. Same with RPG having 40 year old humans being able to fight and defeat a 400 year old elf master mage lord... so if I have to hate anything, I hate humans thinking they are the best, and I hate them hating other races just because they don't know how to lose, because they don't accept that they are like ants compared to other races.

This is a really weird form of racism. This is exactly the opposite of the point made in a setting where your point is true, such as in Babylon 5.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

As Dean points out, the Dalish very much belive that their current theories about the past are true even if they are of the view that their account is incomplete. For example, the Dalish quite firmly believe that that humans are plague bearing vermin whose mere presence cost them immortality.

 

There's nobody in Thedas who thinks their own beliefs are wrong, so I don't know why that's even really worth pointing out. 

[Dean_the_Young]

As Dean points out, the Dalish very much belive that their current theories about the past are true even if they are of the view that their account is incomplete. For example, the Dalish quite firmly believe that that humans are plague bearing vermin whose mere presence cost them immortality.

 

 

There's nobody in Thedas who thinks their own beliefs are wrong, so I don't know why that's even really worth pointing out. 

 

It's not worth point are out that people who are exceptionally arrogant while being simultaneously exceptionally wrong are exceptionally annoying?

 

The difference between the Dalish and most other people in Thedas is that most people don't define themselves on being historians- or use their role as historians to look down and belittle others.

[In Exile]

Jedi - You said the Dalish don't consider themselves "all knowledgeable" but that's demonstrably false. The Dalish believe their oral history is irrefutably true facthat. They believe they have gaps in their knowledge, but not that their knowledge is fallible.

We can't say the same about the Chantry post DAI, as they seem to accept some allegory as to their beliefs, and we see a lot of critical scholarship as to more recent history (e.g., scholars who challenge the historical of the Dales).

[Jedi Master of Orion]

If they know there's gaps in their knowledge, then that, by definition, means they can't consider themselves "all knowledgeable." Because they don't have all the knowledge.They consider themselves as having preserved as much as they can and that they remember more of it than City Elves, which is true, 

[AlanC9]

Well, except that a lot of what they remember is lies.

[In Exile]

If they know there's gaps in their knowledge, then that, by definition, means they can't consider themselves "all knowledgeable." Because they don't have all the knowledge.They consider themselves as having preserved as much as they can and that they remember more of it than City Elves, which is true, 

 

They believe that the knowledge they've preserved isn't completely inaccurate nonsense, which (we as the players) know are false. They very obviously don't feel like they're omniscient, but no one does, so that's not really a position to take. But the Dalish very much believe the subset of what they purported to know is very true. 

[Dean_the_Young]

If they know there's gaps in their knowledge, then that, by definition, means they can't consider themselves "all knowledgeable." Because they don't have all the knowledge.They consider themselves as having preserved as much as they can and that they remember more of it than City Elves, which is true, 

 

They also consider what they have preserved to be accurate, which is false. More to the point, much of what they've 'preserved' isn't actually preserved- it's invented and reinvented to the point that it's not knowledge, it's fiction.

 

Which undercuts their claim to legitimacy, and their arrogance, because what they 'remember' is self-serving distortions used to fuel a ruinous and self-harming grievance agenda rather than actually understand the past.

[ModernAcademic]

It's not worth point are out that people who are exceptionally arrogant while being simultaneously exceptionally wrong are exceptionally annoying?

 

The difference between the Dalish and most other people in Thedas is that most people don't define themselves on being historians- or use their role as historians to look down and belittle others.

 

Thank you, friend. That's the sentiment I was trying to express. The insular culture in which the Dalish live in has brainwashed them to hate humans on principle and hostilize city elves. In other words, it has taught them to justify violence against outsiders based on a victimisation complex.

 

The fact the Dalish even go as far as to use their History to justify murdering humans signals that somewhere down the line they made a change for the worse. 

 

It's understandable they need to keep anyone who approaches the clan at bay. Once people know where a Dalish camp is located, they might go there to rob them and kidnap the innocents. But it's this sort of attitude that causes people living in cities to consider the Dalish wild, savage and dangerous, and that makes people try to hunt them down, like the Orlesians.

 

The way the Dalish behave brings mistrust and violence upon them. They have to protect themselves, but to grow up in a xenophobist, racist culture that victimises them and teaches them to hate people from the outside world is not healthy, nor right in any way. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Why would looking down on others on the basis of being "better historians" any different than looking down on others for any other reason? Because all other factions do it. Dwarves, City Elves, Humans, Qunari, all of them are part of racist or xenophobic or classist cultures that hate certain others as much as Dalish Elves do.